Well yes I think you captured the idea. I am no psychologist but I have pondered this idea a while and discussed it in detail with others in our sitch. I do believe that the analytical detachment is a defense mechanism to protect you from more hurt. It is like sitting in the dentist chair and thinking about which tool he is using now. Understanding what he is doing which allows you to try to ignore the pain. Just sit back and close your eyes and suffer. The pain is the same either way.

I am not trying to discourage you. I am only saying that, if you are going to recover your marriage, I think you have to be willing to lay it all on the line regardless of what might happen. I don't think you can safely hold back anything because it may actually impede recovery.

I understand you are afraid. I was. What I can't understand is what you are afraid of. You need to answer that question. What is the worst that can truly happen.

When we get married, we stop being individuals and we lose a part of ourselves to the marriage. When that marriage breaks apart, we struggle to get that portion of ourselves back that we lost. We need it. It has alwasy been there but we ignored it. But getting back that individuality creates walls to the marriage. Don't try to recover the marriage that you had. Try to make a new marriage with this person that you still love.

Did you ever get hurt by a boyfriend back in your dating days? I had every girl I knew break my heart. But it was worth it and it was an honest pain I suffered.

Salvaging your marriage is a worthy goal. But do it for the right reasons. Do it because you love your WH.

I don't think gemela is still in IC. It interferes with golf. "Spoiled" is a word I have been mulling the past few days. Funny that you mention it. I do believe she has a good heart and is a kind woman. I just think she is hugely immature. My problem is that I have regained my individuality. I no longer "need" her. Do I still love her? That is the question I am working on now. The thing is you cannot stay in Plan A with someone indefinitely who still refuses to acknowledge the affair and refuses to commit to the marriage. Eventually you stop loving them. That is human nature. Have I gotten there? I don't know. I see now that I should have started AD's sooner, I should have insisted on MC. I could have done some thing differently but with gemela still in withdrawal, I didn't see the benefit. Loving gemela is a choise. I can love her again if I choose to. I will have to open myself up and lay my heart on the line and expose myself to yet more pain. Sound familiar? We think we are off the rollercoaster but we are not. The hills and valleys are just smaller so we don't feel the G forces and don't realize we are on the roller coaster.

It sounds like you are depressed. I would focus on getting out of the depression before making any life-changing decisions. Did you ever see the movie Top Gun when Maverick is in the dog fight at the end of the movie and goes into a flat spin and checks out of the fight and talks to Goose's dog tags? That is about where I am right now. I need to do something to get back into the fight.

One other thing I wanted to mention as I was just rereading your post on my email:

I noticed you had stopped posting and I missed the comment earlier about you holding all this in. I recommend you keep posting to your thread even if it is not to ask advice for any specific question. I think that will help you with your depression. Just give it a try and see what happens. Even if you don't say anything more than you are just depressed. You will be surprised how much encouragement from others will lift your spirit.

I also suggest you stop looking at that other thread you just started. Personally I think that was a bad idea and is not helpful to you. Those people are not you and they are not in your situation. You cannot change the past. Stop dwelling on it. Focus on the future because that is where your happiness lies. If you can delete that thread, I suggest you do it because as long as it hangs around, you will be tempted to go read it. Doing so will serve you no good purpose.

Keep posting. Just let us know how you are doing. You are not alone with this. Whatever happens, you will survive this. Did you ever go through lamaze? Find something to focus on. Maybe that will help.

Thank you Piojitos,

Yes you just made me write and think and realize how depressed I am.

I am depressed and I also have problems to admit it to myself, as if it's a weakness, specially when so much depends on me.

I am depressed about everything right now. I am depressed if it's dark and raining as I am depressed on a sunny day because it's such a great day and I can't fully appreciate or feel happy or have the energy to take the girls to the pool or beach because I feel so sad and hurt. ( I take them anyway, and swimming is good)

And you are right, I am keeping it all inside, and no, it's not good, and that's not me, it's not letting me react or act and fight. And worst, I am not really communicating much with H. And he is the only one I can talk about, not the A, but my feelings.

The last 2 years and the last stroke, d-day, are taking to much of myself.

I am trying to eat well and sleep as much as I can, I am running every morning, but even sports leave me in a bad mood after <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I also walk a lot as it has been since always a good way for me to think and it's not working. Not even for inspiration for work.

So I need some inner search (and probably to increase Ad's) and start a plan for myself.
I need time to digest all this now.

About the other thread, I know what you mean, but I believe it's not that bad... I think the answers are accordingly to each one situation, I believe those recovered gave us indeed a good response.

Quote:
I understand you are afraid. I was. What I can't understand is what you are afraid of. You need to answer that question. What is the worst that can truly happen.
___________________

I am not sure what am I really afraid of. Today or right now could be:

In my M, that my H is a serial cheater and that he will do it again. So that I am loosing my time to get hurt again. And if this is true, the girls as well.

I am afraid of myself. I have always been a very rational organized person. I give everything for others. My weakness is that, even tho most people admire me as a strong person that always know everything, I am not that strong, maybe even insecure as I need safety and a solid place, I need honesty and security above all. (My relationship with my H was that solid place)

Maybe I even fear the great task of regaining everything we have lost.

Let's not forget that I am a really helping person and that the stress on my H job was due to a family betrayal, and I haven't even overcome that.

To make it short: I brought my Sister, BIL and kids here from the other side of the planet, because things for them were not good there. They were in big trouble financially and another baby coming. We gave my BIL a position, in my H company, that he never dreamed of getting. It was not enough for them (S and BIL) they took my H position, but it took them nearly 2 years to get to it, and they really made our lives h*ll to get it, and finally did it. The only good thing is that my H in now MUCH better. But their betrayal is there, we payed for their plane tickets, we gave them home for a few months, we helped them get a new house and furnish it, and we even gave them money support during those years of betrayal.

So yes, sometimes I feels like I want to be the real me again, the one before all this Affairs mess, but then I wander... for what? All I received from anyone I tried to help was betrayal.



BUT then I ask myself... Am I really afraid? Or am I just really, really TIRED, emotionally exhausted?
My brain really hurts, my memory is... what was I saying? IC doesn't help much, except for AD's he's not even there to listen. (The only one we have in this town)



Yes I need to focus on myself... and my girls, they need me more then ever. We never argue or yell, we never did anyway, but the girls feel something is going on.


Ok... I need a new plan or I'll fall into self pitty.

Thanks for making me think.

Great post. Just hang tough for a little while. You have to identify a problem before you can solve it (engineer talking). Recognizing your depression is a good thing. I would like to talk a little more about fear but I am afraid I need so time to put that together. Can you keep checking and maybe give me a day or two to complete that task? In the meantime, just keep posting here. I have you on email notification so I see them all.

AD's don't prevent you from being depressed. But you may need a different one or a different dosage. Let the doctor know how you are feeling.

Did you see the movie Top Gun? Just say to yourself "Talk to me, Goose. Talk to me".

Fear

As I have gone through so many cycles from my Dday to this day, fear has pretty much been a constant companion. There have been times when it left me alone but it always comes back. Even though the fear has been more or less constant, what I have been afraid of has seemed to change. I have been afraid of different things at different times. At first I was afraid my marriage was over. Well it was. Later I was afraid I would lose my daughters and then I realized I didn't have to. I was afraid I was a failure and my self-esteem hit the floor, broke it and just kept going. I was afraid that my entire life had been a lie. Everything I had believe in about the person I loved and trusted the most was taken away. I was afraid all that I had (i.e. love, hope, trust, family) was being taken from me.

Then I got angry and my fear left me alone with my anger. Later I got the edge off the anger and decided to try to recover the marriage after reading SAA and other sources. I was not optimistic but I was going to give it the effort. I have posted this before on adrianc's thread (I think) but I will post again. Did you ever see the movie "Jaws"? I always remember the part on the boat where the three are sitting around the table at night and Robert Shaw is telling about his experience of four days in the water after the sinking of the Indianapolis. Talking about the hundreds of men eaten by sharks. I remember he said that on the fourth day the PBY spotted them. He said that it was only when it was their turn and they were about to be picked up were they really afraid. That makes sense. For the first four days, they had no hope. They had resigned themselves to their fate. It was only when hope finally appeared that they were afraid. Maybe that is just a Hollywood screenwriter's creation but it really makes sense and I have seen it in my own experience with gemela. There have been certain times when I believed there was hope that we might actually make it through this. It has been at those times that fear has returned. It has done so, I think, for a couple of reasons. First I am afraid that now that I finally have hope, it may all be for naught. I am afraid of being hurt again as I was before. But the truth is that I can never be hurt like I was on Dday. That pain is forever gone. I don't want to be hurt again and I fear failure because it will bring yet more pain. On the other hand, I think I also fear success. I am afraid of what recovery means.

My old marriage is dead and gone. I have mourned its passing and will never shed another tear for it. Everything I believed marriage was, I can never have with gemela. I am afraid of the unknown. I don't know what recovery actually is. For me to have a marriage that I want, I think I need a new wife. So I am afraid of the success of recovery with gemela because I am not sure it is what I really want.

I am generally not a person dissuaded by my fears but I still have the fear. I am not quite sure what I am afraid of. I am not paralyzed by it either. I am not afraid gemela will break NC or that she will have another affair. The truth is I wish that she would so I could end this misery. So I am afraid she won't break NC.

Some days I ask myself what I would do if I separated from gemela. There is nobody else I am interested in. I am not sure I would even ever be interested in another woman again. I am afraid of ending up alone and yet I have never been more lonely in my life than I am being with gemela right now. I think I would be less lonely without her. I don't know why but I do feel that way. But if I decided to look for a woman right now – any woman – it could just as easily be gemela as anybody else. She does have a lot of nice qualities. Unfortunately she has being a lying, cheating adulteress going against her. Oh well – nobody's perfect.

I think fear is natural. I think I fear both failure and success at the same time. I think it is important to understand that fear, respect it and give allowance for it and then act. Is the hero the man who has no fear and runs into the burning building to save the child or is it the man who is trembling with fear but saves the child anyway? I think it is worthwhile trying to identify exactly what it is you are afraid of. Fear is very elusive though. It isn't easy to identify.

When reading your post about fear I can only think about something that I've also have been dealing with.

And it's not really about fear...
Before I even think of forgiving my H I need to forgive myself. And that's not something that easy, at least not for me, and I am very much an understanding and forgiving person.

My self-esteem, my pride my values, I feel I am betraying myself and my values by accepting him and his infidelity. I need to also "forgive" myself, it's a inner battle in this turmoil of emotions.

I am fighting to find my self back, to be ME, a better me even, and then I think... Who the H*ll am I? What am I doing here? What kind of person am I after all, am I this weak? Where's my pride?
It's almost against nature. After all I am/ have always been faithful and believed my entire life that I would never accept infidelity, I had no doubts I would D.

But faced with it... we realize it's not that simple.

Yes I've seen both movies, yes I like the analogy of fear in Jaws very much.

The hero is probably "the man who is trembling with fear".

And I agree, it isn't easy to identify fear.
I need to meditate on it. I really do.

I really can't understan Gamela position, she doesn't even admit her A?

That is really complicated and it all comes down to point-of-view.

Part of our lesson after Dday is finding ourselves again. It is difficult to want to let go of the WS even though, in reality, they are already gone. We put ourselves in denial. Self-esteem is thrashed by the A. We believe we have done our very best and find out we are not what WS wanted and they found something better. We search ourselves for every flaw. We recognize some and invent others. We have to find fault in ourselves because it is the only way to justify the affair in our mind. This is one thing the WS and BS have in common - they both find fault in and place all the blame on BS. At least we can agree on something.

Digging ourselves out of that hole is a difficult process but it does happen with time. While we are doing it though, we still need WS. As bad as that person is or was, we can't live without that half of our lives. We need it. We then hate ourselves for needing it and slide a little way back into the hole we are desperately trying to get out of.

But what about values? This is where each of us brings our own mix. My values are that affairs are wrong. They are not allowed. WW apparently now has values that do permit them. So do I really want to be married to such a person? If I believe that person is just waiting for the next opportunity, then the answer is no. But what if that person simply made a mistake albeit a huge one? Does that person deserve a second chance? That depends on whether I am capable of forgiving the transgression. My religious beliefs tell me I have no choice but to forgive. Casting the first stone and all. The Bible can really be such a downer sometimes. I mean it is almost like God wants perfection or something. Get real. I am just joking, of course. Seriously, my POV is that if God can forgive me, who am I not to allow the same courtesy to another - especially someone I love.

On the other hand, forgiving the WS does not necessarily mean accepting them back into the marriage. But, if you do take them back, forgiveness is essential IMO. Let's say you do kick WH out the door. Will that salvage your pride? Maybe. If you keep WH, will your pride be forever tarnished? Not necessarily. You could be proud of the fact that you loved beyond all hurt. You forgave the ultimate betrayal. But I guess you shouldn't really be proud of those things because that would make you holier than thou.

You need to get to the point where you stop blaming yourself even a little bit for the affair. Nobody is perfect. No marriage is perfect. They can be improved but only through communication.

Take time. Find yourself. This is so crucial IMO to your chance of recovery. Put Plan A on autopilot and focus on you and your feelings. Decide who you really are and then start to think about what will make you happy.

Gemela does not deny the affair - she just wants to pretend that it never happened so that some day we will forget it. I am giving her the benefit of the doubt. I am giving her time to come to grips with it. If, in time, she continues this attitude, I won't be able to stay married to her. Time will tell. I am being a great husband and a loving husband because that is my duty and what I vowed to her when I married her. I am doing those things for me because I would feel guilty and ashamed if I did otherwise. Do I want to be nice to gemela? Not really. DD2 is sick. She took her to the emergency room last night. She is okay - nothing serious. I am missing work to wait for a freight shipment of personal effects from the USA. DD2 didn't go to school and I am sitting here at home and gemela is out on the golf course. If the situation were reversed, I don't think I would be playing golf right now. But we are all different. Do I think she is being selfish? Yes I do. But that is apparently who she is. I only have to decide whether I want to love her or not. I can't change her.

Been a while since I last posted or even read MB.

Still looking for myself.

M is in limbo.

IC not helping that much. He increased dosage and gave 1 week and half sick leave to rest.

Maybe I know what I should do, maybe not. I have no strength. I do try to look for reasons, motives, positive thinking to help me start moving, a reason to exist. I feel like a looser, I failed everything, first my M, then as a mother and now professionaly. I used to love my profession, now I just hate it. I feel guilty about everything, even when I know I am not guilty or that there was nothing I could do about, maybe because I used to be a perfeccionist kind of person. I use to have everything in control.
I know I am still in depression, I just I don't know how to get out of it.

I am in a chaos right now. Everything is falling.

There's so much to recover I don't know where to start but the worst I don't know WHY start. Everything looks meaningless. I feel like I have no emotions or feelings anymore.

I feel like something in my brain is switch off, I am being totally irresponsable to all my duties, work family, friends.
(No exposure, I have to suck it all up for myself)

I am in a bad place and no one to talk to.

Self pitty? Maybe but I am not so sure. I just feel too tired of everything, emotionaly exhausted.

We are just living each day. Not much talking. We are not communicating our feelings at all.
We talk about the girls, sometimes of his work, we watch movies together or play an online game with a friend.

Just got a call from DD 8 teacher, she wants a meeting today and didn't tell me why.

D-day was in middle January, 6 months already. I know I haven't been the mom my girls were used to have. And during this time of me not being completely there, supporting them thru their problems in school all just got worst, they are now paying a very high price. (DD8 in P3 might be dyslexic and DD6 in P1 might have Attensive Disorder)
I am there with them everyday, but of course, they feel something is wrong, and I am not as patient or playfull as I used to be.

H just called and said he's having trouble at work as he can't concentrate on this big article he's writing. I guess he's also depressed and/or tired? H as been reading MB message boards, said it's interesting and very insightful but said he did not wanted to discuss/ talk about anything with me right now, not ready, needed to read more.

Maybe he's now feeling the guilt of the effect of his actions, maybe he's still in his search for himself... or maybe just still feeding his "alien" justifications for his actions. I have no idea where he stands. He says he wants to rebuilt a even better marriage but doesnt act little like it.

So before I even think about my marriage I have to find myself.

All I'll be worried besides will be my daughters. it's my turn to be selfish but not with them.

Sorry if i am too dark. I really needed to vent, now I'll go back to my soul search.

How is it going with you Piojitos?

Hey LW,

You remind me of me at six months. Your life with WH reminds me of my life with gemela. We are allowed to talk about anything but the affair still. Gemela and I are about to take a "break". We are going to take the DDs to Disneyworld in August and then I am sending her to Mexico and I am taking DDs elsewhere. We have no idea when or if gemela will come back. It won't be until we are BOTH ready.

That sounds bad but we are getting along great at the moment. I am not thinking about the future. I just need to get her gone and have time to re-evaluate what I want and she needs time to decide what it is she really wants. This stalled before recovery is he11 on earth. Gemela stopped MC and IC so I have no more desire to continue. We are not considering divorce for the moment - just indefinite seperation that might only be a few months or could be forever.

You don't sound like you are wallowing in too much self-pity but you do sounds a bit depressed. Hopefully increased dosage of AD will help you.

In spite of everything in my life appearing to be falling apart at the moment, I have not been this at peace in a very long time. Anyway, I am glad you are back posting. Don't apologize for venting. You need to do it.

Hi Lost, I ama newcomer to your story so forgive me if I have missed some facts already mentioned. First off, I am so sorry to hear you are inhabiting such an empty space in your life. I do see postiive potential in the fact that you still "make yourself" do activites with the kids. Being there for the kids while you are fighting the demon of depression is a testament to what a strong pêrson you are and how much being a mother means to you. You are more of a survivor than you now know.

Trust me, I know. I was diagnosed with severe depression 2.5yrs ago and struggled to care for 3 young children throughout the blackest time. I have been on AD for all this time and am still trying to put marriage back together.
I recently wanted to chase an increase in my dosage because I couldn't seem to recover my energy, I was debilitatingly fatigued. Anyways, after a very thourough medical exam, it was discovered (through blood tests) that I was severly anemic and also severly deprived of vitamin B12. The symtoms are very similar to depression but without the blackness of mood or the suicidal thoughts.

This can cause permanent damage within nervous system and memory and can be very difficult to manage. I am now receiving injections and supplements.

My advice before you receive more AD's is to ask your doctor for a blood work up and check for anemia and B12 it may be helpful.

I hope you can start feeling better soon.

Piojitos:
First of all I have to thank you for your support!

I got off work yesterday and just went with a friend to the "VIP"day of one of the biggest Shooping Centers and spend some good time spending money and buying stuff for me and the girls. It felt good, got home by midnight full of bags.

In some way I do envy you and your Plan B. I hope it really works well for you and your girls. I truly hope it gives some light to Gamela. it might not be easy for your girls but they are lucky to have a strong father who stands by them, and I hope you really enjoy having them all for yourself for some time.

I would like to go plan B, to have space and peace of mind, to spend healty time with my girls and leave this rollercoaster of emotions.

I know nothing is impossible but it's really hard and almost impossible to do Plan B here. We are expats and live in a very small community, and the worst of all, in Asia.

If he leaves and the true reasons are to be revealed the impact in our lives and specially in the girls would be enourmous and bad.

At this point I can't really see a way to go Plan B. Besides the fact that H doesn't want it, and that it would be hard to kick him out.

Before I stayed home for the past two weeks, I wandered many times if I was becoming "addicted" to MB boards, and how good or bad it was to be here everyday reading and or posting. And that's why I haven't checked from home.

Now I realize that it helps more then anything. It helps me in many ways. It's a good place to vent for sure. It's good to remind me that I choose to try to rebuild and most of all the Advise I get gives me strength to continue.

apl
Thanks for your conforting and supportive reply, and you know what maybe you're right about my state. I have no doubt that I am severed depressed but I also feel like there's these extreme fatigue state and might be vitamin B complex missing or something. I do eat healty food, I am an all veggie person... but I don't eat all that much.

I am not familiar with your situation I'll check in later <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Expats in a small community in Asia. Hmmm... If your husband works for Shell, I can pin that one down. Otherwise Shekou is what jumped into my mind. I still have my Snake Pit membership in Shekou.

Plan B is not an easy option for me. Fortunately gemela accepts it. We don't talk about it much but sometimes we have to discuss what we are going to do about certain things. When we do, she gets teary-eyed.

I am really looking forward to it. My mind is already there even though we are six weeks away. I am really looking forward to being mom and dad to the DDs. I expect that Plan B is going to be fantastic. I am really excited about it. I am excited about proving to myself that I don't need gemela. I don't mean that to sound bad. What I mean is that, soe day, if she ever does come back, I will take her back because that is what I want - not what I need.

I am also excited about rearranging the furniture and getting more closet space. I am going to keep most of her things here for the time being. If we later decide that the split is permanent, I will ship all her things to wherever she tells me and then I will get some serious closet space. I will probably still keep the toilet seat down just because it has become habit.

We have agreed that we are going to tell DDs that gemela has to go back to be with her mother for a while. We are also going to tell that to all her friends here. There is no need to expose the truth to anyone else here who doesn't already know. If gemela does decide to come back some day, I don't want her to have to face her friends and have to deal with this. I doubt it will come up very much. I don't interact too much with her girlfriends.

I know what you mean about being addicted to MB. I felt that too and have significantly cut back on reading and posting. I get some posts by email (yours being one) that I try to respond to. The thing about MB - I see a lot of people here who are long since divorced and still post daily. I guess it helps them. I see others who post for no particular good reason. I think they are seriously addicted. In those cases, the addiction has no real downside. In your case and my case, the addiction can be detrimental to recovery. We obsess with recovery and Plan A and we lose sight of the path. I think MB can be very good for you in your situation but only if taken in moderation.

You are expats living in Asia. Your husband is a journalist? Does his company provide the housing? Why do you say Plan B would be difficult? Could you go home with the children?

Plan B is difficult for me because of visitation. Right now I am planning on flying gemela back for Christmas and then next summer we will take either a Caribe cruise or vacation in Cuba as this is all close to Mexico. I have to figure out how to get to Cuba though. I don't think I can fly from a US airport (American passport). I need to see if any European carriers have direct service to Havana.

lostwillow,

If you have a little time, I would like to investigate this "loser" business with you. I am interested because I feel the same way at times. I am interested in this for a couple of reasons but I like the part where you say you have failed at everything. This may sound a little convoluted. If so, I'll try to explain better. But I am curious why an A can make us BS's who were on top of the world suddenly become such utter failures in such a short time. But what did we really fail at? If there is such a thing as failure, then there must be something called success. But what is the measure of success? I observe around me many unhappy marriages where I don't have any reason to believe that adultery is involved. Being successful at avoiding an A is not necessarily the key to a happy marriage.

The person who breaks the vow is the failure. That person fails to live up to their beliefs, their promise, their honor. What do we BS's really fail at? I think we feel like a failure because, as much as we are hurt, we still need or want WS. We love them and blame ourselves. To some extent that is self-fulfilling. If we did not blame ourselves, we would not be here at MB working on Plan A. So not all BS's are alike. You and I are one small slice of the Boltzmann distribution but the fact that we are here at MB gives us very much in common in our way of thinking.

I would like to hear more about why you think you are a failure and where you think you failed if you are willing to talk about it. I ask this because I don't really think you are a failure. I think you need to understand where the self-destructive feelings come from. In my entire experience since Dday, I have always blamed myself for the A and never held gemela accountable even though I know she is. It is a very unfortunate side-effect of the A and show how the A keeps on hurting us even after it is long since over.

I feel I have failed at everything because a lot of things happened during those past two years. I know I am not responsible for everything and that maybe I could not have done much, but looking at the result I feel like I failed... maybe I should say it failed.

Let me try to simplify:

1. H is Promoted and starts new work schedule (2:30pm till 2-4:00 am)
2. Our maid for 7 years leaves without a notice. (She was with us before the girls were born)
3. DD1 starts P1 and starts having big problems.
4. We bring my S and BIL and kids here at our expenses, get him a job.
5. H has first ONS. I find but no hard proof (kind of a first d-day and all the pain) he convinces he is innocent. (Still continues with EA)
5.a. From this I start living in doubt, of him and doubting my self for doubting him = Lost of trust in my gut instinct, lost of self-esteem.
6 I am in charge of everything, house, bills, kids, and in a demanding full-time job. I stop thinking about myself, I have to be there for them all and even help H solve some big issues due to his job situation.
7. H is depressed, always stressed, getting away from the girls. (no time at all with them, only saturdays afternoon) They miss daddy, and become to dependent on me)
8. BIL starts playing dirty to get my H position in the company.
9. We totally dedicate ourselves to my H and his needs and his job situation.
10. We 're taking crap from my S and BIL and not much we could do about it, no hard proof and in the mean time the Big Boss goes into BIL side, they totally trap my H.
11. H starts the second A, PA and EA.
12. He starts saying were not happy, I should get a better man, he's not a good H and father.
13. I suspect of EA and talk to him, once again he denied me the truth.
14. All is a mess, DD1 still in trouble with school, DD2 starts showing signs of attensive disorder.
15. H job situation is at chaos. They were really mean people. They don't even let him leave for another job.
16. I suspect of an EA with OW 3.
16. My sister finally ends contact with me at all and denying any betrayal. (She don't even let her kids talk to me)
17. Another d-day from OW2, he still denies and I think the EA ends at this time.
18. Another long trip abroad and at least one night not accounted for. (possible ONS, still don't know)
19. He finally leaves his company.
20. A few months looking for a new job. He spent more timer with the girls trying to get back what he had lost.
21. He finally gets a new (better) job with a higher position then previous and with a normal schedule. (9am-6pm)
22. Kids start P3 and P1 - Only now we seem to find her problem, she's dyslexic. DD2 has a very bad teacher and her attensive disorder situation isn't helping.
23. We are finally feeling that we are going back to normal, we'll get over the family betrayal, wer're now both more available to deal with girls problems at school, we have more time for each other, etc.
24. H has another ONS with OW4, I suspect, he denies.
25. D-DAY, I find hard proof and just talk to him (not really confront)
24. One week later, after my shock state calm a bit, He stops denying first ONS and EA with OW1, he confirms EA with OW 3 and reveals PA with OW2. Forced to admit of course PA and EA with OW4.

I feel I failed because I am living a chaos that started mainly because he lied the first time. He was stressed and depressed from his work but that was not the REALLY reason. He was in WS FOG. That's why nothing that I have done to easy his life ever worked. That's why he got so distant from the girls.
We were in such a mess that we used to thank GOD that at least we had such a strong relationship.

What do I have now?????
- I am severe depressed
- 6 months of pain, anger, etc
- My girls still not good in school and now suffering from my 6 months of depression.
- 6 months of mechanical work (nothing creative or new till now)
- I am risking loosing my job
- And what do I have??? A liar has a Husband whom I am still trying to figure out who is he??? a Serial cheater? A sex addict?
- I am so exhausted and tired I really lack any motivation to do anything... at any level.
- And yes, at times I feel this is all my fault, I should have been stronger, I should have never believed him or doubt myself, etc... easy now that I look back to see how naive I was... I know I wasn't in denial when confronted with the signs... but I am too rational and understanding to act without hard proof, so I just gave him the benefit of doubt because of the H I had known for 10 years prior to this mess. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />(( Honesty was his best quality.

H says he wants Recovery to achieve a even better marriage... but not acting upon it.
He's closed, don't talk, I am even more closed... I really feel my brain so tired I it's really hard to talk to him or even face him at times.
We used to have a great SF relationship but now just thinking about it it's so disgusting.
He's a hard person to live with, (too much stressed) what I mostly appreciated on him was his sincerity, he's honesty. We had been thru some hard times and we ALWAYS supported each other, we have always been strong because we had each other.

Now I just feel if I lost what was the most important... what's left???

I just want to sleep and forget I exist.

Thank God I have my girls and I haven't stopped fighting for them. They are my priority now. Lately I am kind of even forgetting myself again.
Ad's help but I really have no one to talk to. I need a break... but I can't leave now.

Plan B is just hard here. let's just say that if I D I'll get support, If I don't... we will be excluded from the community. The girls will feel the pain.
This is a unique place in Asia. There's two kinds of expats menhere. The family kind and the cheaters, since there are so many kinds of asian young women chasing caucasian men. So none of my friends would like their Hs to hang out with my H nor their family to befriends of our family.
And going home isnt an option, I live here for 15 years now and would like to stay here a few more, at leat till DD's go to college.

Sorry for the loooong post.

When are you leaving on holidays? Hope you can enjoy your time with your girls.

I hope Gamela finally realises she's not living in a novel and appreciates what she has in real life.

Latin people love novels and drama impossible love stories.

Yesterday I sat and wrote a very lengthy reply to your post and every time I tried to submit, I got a "page not found error". I tried for a couple of hours but eventually lost the post entirely. I got frustrated.

Shorter version:

Have you spoken to you H about your list? Have you asked him to make a list on his own without seeing yours and then comparing notes?

Remember that Greg in SAA always thought he was doing the right thing with the job and better salary. Items 1-4 in your list really stand out for me. I am betting you think your problems began further down (say about #7). Since you posted those things, I know you recognize they have some importance.

Whose idea was it for S and BIL to move there? Was it yours? Was H actively for it or did he do it because you wanted it? This is just curiosity. I am wondering if your H does not hold some deep seeded blame for things that have happened.

I also wanted to say before I forget that 4 affairs does not necessarily mean serial cheater in your context. Life as an expat is hard. I don't care where it is. One of the worst places I have ever lived is Ciudad Ojeda in Venezuela. I consider myself lucky that I have never had to live in the "stans" (Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, etc.) or the "erias" (Algeria, Nigeria, Siberia, etc.). I understand they are far worse. Asia would be a difficult place to live because there are many attractive women, prostitution is common and "accepted". I know of many marriages that were destroyed in Singapore, for example.

Also it takes a special kind of person IMO to be a "good" expat. Some people seem to have a moral compass. Others have a moral sense but lose their direction. And then there is the "kid in the candy store" expat. I could tell you so many stories about the field service guys who used to work for me. Expats on rotation work are many times the worst. They view their rotation as an alternate reality. What they do while there is completely separate from their life at home.

I was thinking about the expats who lose their direction. I have never taken my advanced open water diving course. But I view the analogy something like being on the surface and seeing where I want to go, checking the compass bearing, diving and following that compass bearing and ending up not where I intended to go. This is because even though I am following the compass, I am not aware that I am being pushed this way and that ever so slightly but the ocean currents. Expats being around other expats are heavily influenced by them without really knowing it until it is too late.

Where I live, we have very good moral people, we have serial cheaters, we have swingers, we have key swapping parties, we have AD-DC, we have it all. If you lose your sense of who you are, it is easy to get distracted by all of that. I think I recognized that very early on in my career and have been able to avoid it. I have traveled a lot. Spent months out of the year away from home. I have been propositioned by literally thousands of prostitutes - some of which I am not sure were women (always look at the Adam's apple). But I always knew it would never be real.

Your H may not be a serial cheater in the true sense. It may just be that he has lost his sense of self and is desperately trying to find it. It sounds like your marriage took quite a few upheavals so the M was not the anchor he needed. I don't know for sure. I am just being optimistic.

I think you might try to sit with your H and talk through history. Ask him how he felt when BIL moved there. Ask him how he felt when you lost the maid and you suddenly had so much less time for him. Don't get me wrong. I am not saying this is your fault. I am saying that maybe each of you has made huge assumptions about how the other felt about those life-changing events and were very wrong.

The way I started my lost post was with Strother Martin's most famous movie line to Paul Newman in Cool Hand Luke when he said "What we have here is a failure to communicate". Why don't the two of you compare lists? It would be a good way to start a great conversation.

Hi, Not sure if you're still around or having fun in Disneyland!

I like the list idea.
We talked, for a long time... still so much to talk.

The outcome... I really don't know if he's in some kind of fog and still trying to justify his actions to easy his guilt feelings.

First he said that reading MB is very depressive.
He can't stand the guilt of the pain he caused me and the harm to the family.
He never really felt it or had and idea of how bad it is and how much a BS suffers.
He realized, from the boards that in most cases recovery fails and it takes way too long.
He doesn't believe that I'll ever be able to forgive him because what he done was so bad.
And he can't see us happy in the future.
Said he now can't barely face me or the girls without feeling all the guilt and he's having a hard time living with it.

Then he says...
We've never been that happy nor had a happy marriage, even before he started in that company, because our live together has always been about him, his stress and his problems.
That he love's me... but... we have grown apart, I am no longer the person he felt in love, who had time for her paintings and art projects.
He still doesn't know why he did it, but he questions himself as to if he really loved me how could he do such thing.
He did found a new world during that time, a new kind of life, he didn't knew existed.
He has never been a good father or husband and that I was just too nice to him.
I should have dedicated more time to myself. I have always placed him and the girls first and that I just never had the time or energy to myself. He feels like he has taken so much from me that he destroyed the real me and I am no longer the person he felt in love with.

He doesn't know what's best or what's the biggest mistake, the divorce or recovery
He wont go for divorce because he's afraid it's a Huge mistake.
He wont go for divorce because he thinks I'll be the one who will suffer more. And he owns me to try recovery.
If we ever divorce he wont fight for the girls (he doesn't want them in parents fight), but he wants to see and be with them, be part of their lives.
The recovery might be the right thing to do... or try but has no hope in it. We should both become more independent, I should stop being his support, and hates now that it is still about him everyday - him being stressed, me being there for him.

I told him most of what he said sounds like him just justifying himself to run away from guilty... He said... maybe but didn't really agree with it.

All this he realized from reading the "depressive" MB boards.

I told him I loved him.
I told him I do believe in recovery, if we both work for it, if that's what we both really want.
I asked him if he really wants to spend the rest of his life with me and be faithful.
He said yes to be faithful, (can't even imagine me going thru another betrayal) but he just can't see me trusting him again.
I asked him if it's the Divorce he wants then let's do it.
He said no, because it's not fair for me.

For me?

1. He's in fog and running from assuming his mistakes and face the consequences. I truly believe he can't face guilt at times.

2. He just realized what he did and the impact of it in our relationship and comparing the hard work of recovery to the "new kind of life" he found. (No responsabilities, no kids, do whatever he wants whenever he wants and have the single dating life back.)

Both are childish. Or fogged?

We are going to continue this conversation soon. I am holding till then.

I know I haven't been plan A ing, and we haven't really been in Recovery either.

So life is not really good at the moment. I am depressed (fighting it tho).
We're living the effects and damage of the after d-day. So, everything is pretty much messed up.

As for the serial cheating:
I am not sure he's a serial cheater either. These affairs where not with the local "easy girls". OP n2 was Chinese, and was just using him to get info, contacts and fresh news, and of course in the "chase" for causasian, but mostly was for professional benefit. She was sleeping around with all and any caucasian.
The other A's were with 30 plus single troubles women from other countries. Any way it all happened while he was in big stress from work.
Only the future can tell me that. He says he wants to be faithful, but he says he discovered a new kind of life.

About my sister family:
I was the one to propose my BIL to take that position.
No ressentment toward me from my H, since we spoke about it at the time. He blames them for their betrayal, not me for bringing them here.
Of course we both still sad and hurt still about it, after all we got them here, supported them, and all we wanted from it was for our girls to have cousins and family around and give them a better lifestyle. They have it, no doubt, but we lost family.

Hope you're having great fun.

Lost

I am going to read through your post some more but I have a quick few minutes. Disneyword trip starts at 1:35 AM on July 31st.

If your H feels guilty, that may be a real sign that he is coming out of the fog. Guilt is a bad thing to live with. Most of us carry it around to some extent all our lives. It is far easier to run from it than face it. Tell him he is a man and needs to face his problems and deal with them - not run from them.

If he tells you he thinks he will never make you happy and that you can never forgive him, tell him that it is not his place to decide what you will do or how you will feel. You already know all of those things and yet you want to continue the marriage and improve it. Those are your problems to deal with - not his.

He has already made so many choices for you. He took the job overseas. He had the affair(s). He decided you were unhappy. Tell him you are a big girl and can think for yourself. His only responsibility is to keep his pants on.

Saying the marriage was never happy is part of his rewritten history. I doubt that you have been together this long and he was unhappy the whole time. Him saying the marriage was unhappy is helping him justify the affair and that is why it is so important for him to believe that. The alternative is to admit to himself that he is a complete [censored] with no regard for the one person who loved him the most. It is a defense mechanism. If your marriage was truly that unhappy, don't you think you would have noticed it too?

If reading MB depresses him, tell him to stop. It depresses me too so he is probably right. He is wrong, however, when he says most marriages don't recover. I think most do. He is just reading in the wrong forum.

If I were your H, I would probably have a deep seeded resentment toward you over BIL but I probably would not realize it. Humans always want to find someone to blame for things. It is our nature for some curious reason. I bet there is somethig there. Have you ever apologized to him for bringing BIL? Can't hurt.

When you say H has discovered a new kind of life, what is that exactly?

I'll go read the post now that it is on my email. I think you are doing OK. Plan A is hard. It does get easier. It sounds like your WH is further along than my WW but I also think you are at a critical stage where you need to be careful. Right now show him that you are committed to the marriage. Step up your Plan A and avoid LB's. Don't let him run from his problems. Show him you are willing to face them. He is a man - so should he.

Well I have reread the post on email and I don't get much of a different take except that he does still sound a bit foggy although it seems to have cleared a bit. it also seems like your Plan A has had some good effect.

Unless he is just madly in love with his current OW and can't stand not being with her, my feeling is that you can always get divorced at any time. There is no harm to trying recovery in the practical sense - i.e. what do you have to lose? If it doesn't work - it doesn't work.

I think maybe your H's guilt could be the foremost issue he has. It is much easier to run from it than face it. I think it is important that you avoid LB's and especially DJ's. You are depressed and it is hard to avoid those things. Ask you H what the two of you need to do to make the marriage less about him and more about the both of you together. This is the time you have to expose yourself a little bit and lay more cards on the table. You need to be very open and honest and be a guide for him. He may want to recover but does not know how. You have to lead the way. Give him a path to follow and help him into recovery. Gee you have a lot of responsibility - I know. Oh well, if it was easy, anybody could do it. You can and will.

"When you say H has discovered a new kind of life, what is that exactly?"

I really don't know... but all I gather is the "single" lifestyle? The availability to this women crossing his path?

This is China, his name card has "director" on it... makes him a prime target. But, well, it has always been like that for the past 6 years... and he would always tell me about this women trying to get to him.


"Have you ever apologized to him for bringing BIL? Can't hurt."
We did talk deeply about it and I did apologized. He just said I wasn't to blame, I just wanted him to have an assistant he could trust and to help my sister... I could never guessed this turn out. They are to blame.
Anyway, his in a much better position now.


There is no current OW. As far as I can trust my gut feeling and because there are no real signs of it. I haven't been snooping that much... it's not heatly, besides I know if he wanted to contact any of them he could do it without me finding out thru office computer.

Yes, you are absolutely right on everything.

Now that he as been faced with all the devastation he tries to run.
He's a negative type of person. Has a hard time assuming his mistakes. Usually has litle hope on emending any mistake, and just keeps moving and trying to forget.
And, his number one need is SF, and he is really having a hard time realizing we lost the -hot-intimacy- strong relationship we had, and that he was so proud of. The one we built together, where we've grown together and that it was so special.

Maybe because it was that special, I do have a hard time with SF right now... we do it... but it lost so much... I feel akward after, even when I am able to pass over all the flasbacks and it's ok...

Of course we know ouselves so well, he feels it... and I am also not good at pretending.

Guess I needed to hear it from someone else, thanks for reassuring me.

You are right... I must Plan A still. No recovery if he's still in fog in his search for the "why" he did.

The "new kind of life" is concerning but, if he decides to forsake that for the M, so be it. I think most men have a fantasy of women falling all over them. Most of the women he is encountering may actually be attracted to his position. But they are probably not attracted to him specifically. So they are using him and he likes letting them. But it isn't real. That is why I never had an affair. I knew it could never be real. Women of different cultures like different things. In Venezuela, the women valued men with light skin. I wish I had been single when I lived there. Oh well...

I went through a phase where SF was horrible and I hated it. That goes away. I suggest you just do your best in the meantime. I think SF is important to help reestablish intimacy. I also think it is okay to let your H know how you are feeling and ask him to help you through this. Now I don't dread SF any more but it is not that great either. But it is getting better as time goes by.