In China they first value the race, caucasian means money or a passport.

Then we have... Thay, Philiphines, Indonesian girls... H never been into this... maybe because he came here 20 years ago, as a kid. Many expats fail to these women. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />(

So families kind of hang out together in two goups... The family man kind, divorced welcomed, and families with cheating H's <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

He knows it was a fantasy, he never ever considered divorce until recently faced with reality, the impact of his affairs in our life.

"The new kind of live" mitgh very well be being a cake eater <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Only time can tell.

Well. I already have much to think about for today. I feel some peace now.
Thanks SO much for your time and wisdom.

Hope Gamela will see soon the great H she has.

Disneyland is a perfect place for Holidays... For her to see your girls so happy, to see the happy family you guys can have. Her fresh memories when she goes alone to Mexico will be the great father with the happy children. Take TOONS of pictures. With the four of you!!!

Well since you hadn't posted for a while I was wondering how you were doing. Thanks for the update. I am not posting much lately but I do watch for your thread.

I know the expat life is tough. There are a lot of temptations and very few restraints compared to your home country. You don't find many one-time cheaters among expat men IMO. They tend to go more toward extremes. Kid in a candy store type extreme for the cheater or Bible thumper for the non-cheater. Expat life is in no way normal. Oh, forgot about alcoholism - very high in expats.

We have a saying here in Saudi. You arrive with two empty buckets - a money bucket and a bu11shit bucket. Whenever one of them is full, you leave.

In Indonesia, I believe the number one attraction is height. Taller = better.

"""
We have a saying here in Saudi. You arrive with two empty buckets - a money bucket and a bu11shit bucket. Whenever one of them is full, you leave. """

lol

H doesn't usually drink, wich isn't all that good after all... because he only needs a few beers to loose it.

Anyway, H not really into that kind of expat. Really, he doesn go out to bars or guys for a drink and... the rest.

At least that's where he's still at, and the reason I am not so sure he's a serial cheater.

I am doing much better! Girls are on Holidays and I have been having much fun with them. They sleep a litle bit later but the extended "family time" at the end of the day feels good for everyone.

We're also going to Disneyland (in Asia) for one week in August! And then maybe a few days in Thailand. It will be good for all of us.

Well if you don't mind, please let me know how Disneyland is. I almost decided to go there instead of Disneyworld. I mean 2006 is the year for visiting HK according to the Star World advertisements. I haven't been to HK since before it opened. I was there when it was still part of the UK and then when it became the property of China. I would like to go back some day and Disneyland would be a real plus if it is worth the bother.

Guess were still in some kind of limbo.

We talked a bit last week. He still "believes" I should trust him completely because he's commited...

I got upset a few times during last months because he attended a few business dinners and not only went out to the bars after, as he been drinking. He had promised, we agreed he would not follow his "business mates" to the bars and that he would never drink during any professional event. (He doesn't drink and never did, just those few beers or wine or whatever, that easily get him almost drunk)

Actually he have never kept any of the agreements promises he made after d-day.

He's reasons for it? Because he now knows "how" things work, he's stronger and would never fail again...

Me? well... infidelity sucks, I doubt myself that I'll ever be able to "let go" and have a healthy relationship with H.

Right now I just regret that I have never actually worked in myself for the last 10 months of this mess.

Kids suffer more then we can ever suspect. Younger one is paying a high price for all this mess, specially after d-day, and I guess I am the one to blame.

So limbo it is for now.

Finally girls will have a therapist for their problems. I just can't stop thinking : "how can I D, with two so demanding children? They need both of us more then any "healthy" child"


Been away for some time. gona read your thread Trac and see how's it going for you.

Thanks MD for being always here to let us vent.

Ohh, forgot to add, H still doesnt know why he did it.

Can't we move anywhere without it?
I know Dr Harley says is essencial to start recovery and to prevent infidelity in a M.

For my H is like what he done wasn't all that much of a big deal.

I think I remember saying this a long time ago but, IMVHO, WH's understanding of why he had an A is not really important. As a BS, you want to know and have every right to know but a fogged out WS never knows the real reason. I have asked my WW to go to therapy to find out the why. She is doing that. But I think she is only just now at a place where that is a realistic expectation. It is only now that she is beginning to think that maybe she really does have some responsibility for her actions and only now that she really sees the consequences.

Funny thing is, now that she is in a position to examine that, I no longer care. Now she says she will answer any and every question I have regarding the A. I can't think of any - seriously - not one single question!

It is really hard to get yourself into a mental state to move to R. Basically what your WS did to you is totally inexcusable except that you have to excuse it. It is unfirgiveable except that you have to forgive it. So you have to rewire yourself for life in R after the A. WS has a lot to do with helping you. If you have to do it all on your own, I think that would be difficult.

If WS made promises and doesn't keep them, you need to state that. You have to have boundaries that are acceptable to the both of you. You should also go to IC if you aren't already. You have suffered a very traumatic event to have to deal with it all on your own.

I am in IC, he's helping with meds an that's about it.

About he's promises... well I kind of understand where he comes from with the reasoning that they are useless, and I know it.

For example, he at some point kind of made it sound like at the very moment he had his ONS's partly because he was drunk.

So we agreed no more drinking on any event unless were together.

This recent events where he drunk more then he should, I can admit there was no risk of another ONS... but the point is... Where is his respect for me, not keeping the promise and HOW can I ever rebuilt TRUST if he's not even capable of keeping his word on this?

I mean, over those two years I WAS way too understanding, I lived in the benefit of doubt, not in denial of evidence... but how can I be that "fool" now?

Honesty is my n1 EN, it was what I most apreciated about him.

Right now I feel I am finally ready to move on in recovering myself.

I guess you're right about the why, all he can come up with are just nonsence WS reasoning and pretty much hurting me even more.

I am at a point where I am starting to see that I deserve better for a H.

So, if he's willing to do his part I'll be here, if not, I'll be ok.

I've sneak into TKO during the ast few months to try to keep track of your situation, kind of hard.

I missed the part that after all she went to Mexico.

But I am glad gamela is finally showing some responsabilities for her actions.

You and your beautifull daughters deserve it.

I have to say that gemela seems to be going well out of her way to be transparent. The incident a few weeks ago where she asked for some rapid cash to be paid for something completely untraceable caused a problem. I asked how I had assurance that it didn't go for phone cards. She said it had never occurred to her that I would think that and it ended up causing a bad day for us. Sometimes I think maybe the A is too far out of her mind and she forgets that little things might trigger a big problem - like the incident I just mentioned on TKO that happened two days ago. So gemela is being careful. I see that and appreciate that. She also has no more opportunities so, if she wants this one, she knows she needs to be very careful. I too am ready to move on but gemela has not given me a real reason to move on. It seems our brief Plan B was good for both of us but not necessarily good for the M. Time will tell. If alcohol led to his ONS's and he still drinks without you, why does he feel he is any different now? Sometimes people who are drunk don't operate under the same moral framework that they do when they are sober. Some (I think) do. Alcohol has never made me "loose". It just has always made me sleepy. I'm a lousy drunk at parties. I'm the one snoozing on the couch.

"If alcohol led to his ONS's and he still drinks without you, why does he feel he is any different now?"

He says he's now more experienced with this kind of women ?!?, and that he already realized the consequences of the PA's, EA's and ONS's in our R, in our lives and the hurt they caused me !?!. Now he decided that he wanted to be in the marriage and will never do it again.

Also, it bothers me that he has "problems" not drinking just because everybody is drinking.
He feels that since he's not usually one of them (bars and drinking every night) that when his there he must drink.

_______
""... I asked how I had assurance that it didn't go for phone cards. She said it had never occurred to her that I would think that... ""

I seam to have the same kind of situations with my H...
Yesterday I went to his office and was sitting by the computer while he was finishing work. I saw a .doc file with the name "I have a problem" on the desktop. Huge red flag for me.

My first though was, another OW or just one of the previous writing him again?
(since all of them had always many emotional problems, reason why they would come to him, the kind married man...!...)

I asked about it and he said, very embarrassed, that It was nothing I could see.

I couldnt believe he had just said that, and he must realized in that moment that he had to give me something. He said he could only show me the first sentences...

He let me read and it was something like:

I have a problem
I am a WS and I have a different problem then most people here.
-------------------
So he's trying to post here? maybe (He doesn't like posting, never did, he doesn't even like message boards at all) but he had been reading some here, until he found it too depressing specially for a WS...

He said he wouldn't show me more because it was something he's been writing for some time, not finished and that is helping him organize his ideas, it was a test he was doing.

When I told him I though it was from some of those OW he said he would never though of that.

Anyway, I did not insist for him to show it to me, specially because he mentioned that I never showed him my posts in MB. (He could anyway get to them, I have no idea if he read them or not)

Now, should I insist?
1. I would like to read it of course, probably it would help us, both ways, to R or D.
2. I don't think my posts and his writings are the same thing. But maybe they are.
I think that as a BS, I didnt wanted him to read them because MB was and still is the only place I have to talk about what were going thru. How could I have him here reading, knowing all that is going thru my mind if he's not being open with me?

His writings are in my opinion what he should be telling me so we can reestablish intimacy and communication. The way I see it he's hiding something from me.


Finally, after this I see what I already knew, that were SO FAR from each other, and getting farther away. Were not communicating.

I know that at some point I am to blame for it... but so far I am still waiting for him. I am really tired of being ALWAYS the one to bring anything up, to start all and any conversation. To open up, or ask all the questions or make all the conversation.

What do you think? Should I insist with him for us to discuss his writings? Or should I see it as his "diary" and respect it as that?

He's not a person to talk about his feelings. And since d-day that he's even more closed since he said so many "stupid" things as justifications for his behavior. And he still mentions from time to time that he can't tell me what's going in his mind because he's afraid of what I would think of him.

I don't think you can force or insist. I think what I would do is tell him how you feel about the fact that he has secret writings. I would tell him how insecure that makes you and feeds the continued doubts that you have.

It could all be genuine. But transparency is good for any marriage - not just one affected by adultery. You two need to communicate. You always have. He needs to learn that he can communicate and not feel embarrassed or shy.

Do you have a "no secrets" agreement? If so, why is he keeping secrets?

The fatc that he feels he needs to drink because others are drinking says a lot about him. Not that he is an alcoholic - just that he has a somewhat diminished strength of character in that what others think about him seems to be very important. I tend to go the other way. I couldn't give a fig what others think. Peoples' behavior should not be that easily influenced by their environment. Your H goes with the flow. What if his work buddies are all getting lap dances? Will he feel compelled to go along with the crowd? Where does he draw his personal line? Sorry but I just don't buy into the drinking because everyone else is. Soda water tastes pretty good, is readily available, fairly cheap and, after a drink or two, nobody remembers or cares you are not drinking alcohol.

We have a "no secrets" agreement... and he says he understands the need for transparency. He just doesn't act upon it.

He been changing from the person who would talk about everything of his work and day-to-day stuff, who called everyday all the time into someone who just doesn't talk unless asked about work.
Now he's more the kind of person who doesn't hide... just doesnt tell.

As for the drinking...

We are talking about a very stressed person with a very low self-esteem.

He's a looser. He failed as a father, as a husband and professionally.
He's extremely selfish and a very hard person to live with.
Actually he's only achievements for the past tree years were his A's.
He's just a normal guy. He's now much more worried about the way he looks.

We've been moving slowly because we don't talk, because he feels guilty, because he cant bear it, because he's stressed, because he's tired, etc

Now, is there any "fog"on my part keeping me from seeing his positives? maybe...

As I said before... what I loved most about him was his honesty, his sincerity and the father he was... not perfect but at least very cared and loving with the girls. He was a proud father a family guy. He was proud he had a family, he spended all his free time with us, unlike his co-workers always drinking or at massage parlours. He was so proud of our relationship and SF live, he used to laugh at other guys for going outside to look for what he used to say he had at home.

Now family means trouble, responsability, it's an obligation. Specially because our girls have problems he feels and believes are his genetic fault, detected and diagnosed after d-day. Aye, I am also griefing the loss of our perfect lovely girls as said by an educational psycologist at a seminar I attended recently.

Right now, we been having some problems derived from the severe depression I got into after d-day.

His priority it seams is too recover the "hot-intimicy" SF relation we had.
I know SF is his n1 need... but what we had was based on TOTAL TRUST on each other. It took us 10 years to built.

Honestly? think he's between the staying because is the right thing to do and the wish to go away and live that "single" life again that he said he rediscovered.

Which means he's still in some way beliving in those lazy arguments as to justify his actions.


I know I might be at fault as well... but it's really hard right for me to see anything clear. I need to get out of this depression... I just don't realy know how. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I am on meds, I have better days and I am fighting for my girls to give them all they need. but still in the end of the day, after they sleep.. the world is dark and I feel empty and with my mind so blured.

I hope you will confide in your doctor that the meds aren't working. It often takes several tries or combinations to get them right. This stuff is hard. Don't try to tough it out.

Maybe you're right Believer.

I even asked my doctor for some "brain food" or something but he said no.
My work requires a lot of creativity and it's being really hard to keep up the good work. Actually the only reason I haven't been fired yet is that they've been happy with my work for the last 8 years.

Life hasn't been the best in the last two months, two car accidents (one was my fault, no one seriously injured, but I am not driving till this depression goes away), kidney stones kept me in the hospital for 10 days, DD8 broke her foot (two weeks at home already). Besides the learning disability DD6 was diagnosed with "child depression" due to her previous teacher in her previous school.

This doctor is the only one here... he's just there for the meds, no much for talking. Hope he can help me more next time.

Silence speaks more then words I guess.

Am I at such a bad place tracionado?

I feel so. Need time. Lot's going on with daugthers right now. They are first.

Just one question, I know a hard one.

How can I D with my girls in such a need of both of their parents support?

Am I foggeg? In denial? crazy?

LW,

That is a difficult question for you to know the real answer to. I think I spent a lot of time in my own fog. I would tell myself that I couldn't D because of the DDs while it was probably me that wasn't ready to let go. Even so, it isn't that simple. The DDs would be affected and they do need their parents. An easier way to look at it is to think what role model the M and your WH set for your children. Do you want them raised in a home full of strife and without love? Gemela was raised that way. Her father was a serial cheater on a scale you can't fathom.

So try to pt it in the perspective of wht you want to teach your children about life and relationships. I can tell you that I learned what others have clearly said (believer, et.al.) that you cannot let yourself stay in Plan A too long. If I remember correctly, you are in an expat situation in something like China or HK or somewhere in that general area. I am only guessing but I imagine there must be a certain fear factor for you to think of leaving your WH and starting out on a new life. If that means a new country, new schools, new job, etc. that can be pretty daunting. So ask yourself if your own fear is guiding your decision as well.

Children need a home where they are loved and respected and can see love. You need to do your best to find a way to provide that for them. Ideally you and WH can recover your M and give them that. But your WH is still trapped in his own fog. Not necessarily fog of the OWs but his belief that he is invincible. Maybe he is. But he still needs to understand that you have needs as well and he is, at the moment, not respecting them.

Maybe you can't effectively Plan B right now but you can't just live with the status quo either. Are you communicating very clearly? Are you spending 15 hours together each week? Will he agree to MC? Is he being a better father to the children again? It seems like WH has made a lot of progress but has gotten to the point where he is in stasis. I bet many couples do that and some maybe even do it with reasonable success. MB is not about that. MB is about finishing what you started and having (hopefully) a really great M afterward.

There is no question that, any time children are involved, it is complicated. If you do decide to take them and leave, don't blame yourself for breaking up the family. Always remember that WH owns that responsibility. But where are you at on the road to recovery?

I will tell you that I was not nearly as depressed during the A as I was when it was clearly dead. I had all the emotion and adrenaline going fighting the A and trying to keep the family together pumping through my veins. Once the fight was gone, I was spent. I still fight that. So I have to be careful that I don't have a knee-jerk reaction simply due to my depression because right now the problem is clearly me - not gemela and possibly not even the A (although it was the root cause). So how bout an update. What is really going on right now with you, WH and the children? How do you feel?

Hello Pio!

Took me long to answer because I really didn't had any answers.

I don't really know where we are at.

Today is the one year after dday mark, I dont really feel like going home...
"A year already? wow, looks like was yesterday"

I am here, now, trying to look at this past year and make any sense out of it.

We still supposed to be in recovery.

I don't really feel it. There was no effort on H part to clearly talk about his A's.

I feel we are just living a false recovery, we are just slowly killing any chances of a true recovery.

For now H still on the "bury it" attitude, the "it happened" nothing can't change it, and just move on. "I am here with you, I made my choice, and the past is past."

He doesnt talk about anything R or M related, I stopped bringing in the subject, I am really tired of me talking and nothing from him.

I am too patient and it doesn't help, from the days I hate him more to the days I hope he talks I realize I expect too much and wait for too long.

I feel he's having it his way, pretend nothing happened, move on, time will solve all.

The SF life we were so proud of, is totally gone.

We cant have a good SF life nor anykind of life if we dont comunicate and if we dont have any intimacy. He's closed in himself and I am closed in mine as I dont trust him.

On the good side he's been really better with the girls, and I feel on his way he's trying to meet my needs... but I cant meet his n1 EN if there's no trust.
DD7 changed school and is doing much better.


Glad to know you and Gamela are going again into the EN questionaries.

I dont post much lately but been trying to keep track of TKO.

Glad you still posting, you are one of the most wisest persons in here. You get it right on spot every time you reply to anyone.

I truly hope you find your happiness either way, gives me peace knowing your girls have such an good father.

I know you'll be ok.

Thanks for always giving me support.

LW,

We just got back from a long family day out and are tired, covered in camel dung and trying to get bathed to make chocolate chip cookies before bed. Thanks for the update. I'll post back whne I get up in the AM. Between your post and Myrta's post, it seems like you and I have some similar issues. WS saying it is over, let's put it behind us, etc. I finally had enough of that. But then you knew that already. I'll come back when I have slept. I'm glad you're still okay.