Hi, LLG! And hello to you, too, Lizzie...

Did you see me bump your old thread last week? I saw your new threads, too, after I did that, though. I think about you, LLG...I believe you will always be learning and growing...you have that desire. Makes your screen name just right.

Lizzie...you most certainly can take this class...even if it's more of a journey than a class...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Did you read the instructions on the first page? I think I need to reword "hate" to "pet peeve" "what gets under your skin that others do"...because recently, some have said that they didn't hate anyone...

If you've been reading me, you'll know I'm on a journey, too...that this exercise helped me tremendously, but I am no expert, no credentials...

Welcome...anyone can do this exercise...

LA

OKay, LA, how do I get started? I'm not one to jump on the bandwagon but what the heck...I need some fun in my life! LOL

LA, No I didn't see you bump my thread last week. SOrry I missed it. I'll go back and check it out. Thanks for the nice words. oh, and I think about you and the things you've shared with me too in my head. Things about me owning my own insecurities and so on. take care.

Rin,

ROFL...some fun in your life...

Okay, Lizzie and Rin...

Grab a sheet of paper and write down the names of people who you do not like...just list them down the page...and this may be tough--I didn't admit to myself there were people I didn't like...until I thought of the OW...OKAY, I could get on board with that...and it got the ball rolling...and I got more honest with myself...I was shocked to find 14 people I didn't like...

Once you have your list, then look at each person and write across the page one-word attributes that have that snap-back reaction in you...what is it that hits you first that you don't like...lying...arrogance...needy...whatever it is...and list them all...then go on to the next person on your list...

When you finish your list and attributes (characteristics), let me know and I'll tell you the next step.

Take your time...go with your gut and be your most honest...

Brave souls...

Sound fun? LOL! You crack me up, Rin. Adorable.

LA

Okay LA, here's my list:

Liar
Cheater
Irresponsible
Condescending
Pretentious
Rationalizer
Lazy
Avoidant
Insincere
Conceited
Selfish
Self-centerd
Mean-spirited
Cold-hearted

Next?

LA,

I have been participating in this activity even though I haven't posted. I have talked about alot of this in my IC. He said that I have made a dramatic improvement!!

Though my sitch is still bleak, and i fight my inner demons to just let go everyday, I know I am improving first for me, but hopfully with a carry over to WW and myself.

Thank you so much!!

Lizzie...

Next step? Sit down with your list...breathe deeply, get focused...quiet...and find each of those traits in yourself...

This isn't a trick.

When you find each one, ask it, "Why are you in me?" and listen to what they say...

Post what you find, what they say...

LA

Ok - here goes. This probably won't be pleasant.

I can probably group some of them together.

Liar/Cheater is probably in me because of my need to feel perfect, my need to be perfect. When people recognize me for my accomplishments, I often feel like I've gotten away with something. No matter what I have done, I have excelled - top in my class, won the awards, the beauty contests, homecoming queen in high school - you name it - I have always come in at the top. Yet, inside, I feel like I always fall short. My father abused me in every way possible - physically, verbally, emotionally, and sexually. I thought that after my second marriage ended in divorce that I had overcome that. Enter husband number 3 -a perfect match. a perfect life, until he began his affair. Again, I am left with the feeling that I am just not good enough.

Irresponsible - I don't see this in me. If anything, i am the opposite - super responsible - often taking on things that aren't mine.

Condescending - yes, this can be me. I hate it when others treat me in this manner, but I am often guilty of this. My need to feel superior?

Pretentious - see condescending.

Rationalizer - this is definitely me. If I act in a way that I don't usually see as appropriate, i can usually justify it. i hate this in other people, but it is something that I do.

Lazy - not sure how this fits me. I am the least lazy person I know, an over achiever, and I am always afraid of being labeled as lazy.

Avoidant - maybe somewhat in the context of the affair. I wonder if having no resoultion is better than an absolute end to my marriage. Again, I am afraid of failure.

Insincere - this is not me, ever.

Conceited - I will often "toot my own horn" because I want people to know how perfect I am. I have been especially guilty of this in the context of my H's affair.

Selfish - I would like to be selfish at times. In the healthy way. Each time I put myself first, I am miserable thinking of all the woulda, coulda, shouldas that I am neglecting.

Self-centerd - I would like to be this, but I am a people pleaser, always putting other people first. I am jealous of people who take care of themselves first. I can't do it without feeling guilty.

Mean-spirited - I feel that way as far as the OW is concerned. I wish nothing but bad and heartache for her.

Cold-hearted - see mean spirited.

Lizzie...

Wow...great insight on the Liar/Cheater...which I do think is a pervasive belief within you...can you see it tied to condenscenion/pretension? This duplicity--identifying you feel inauthentic, is really valuable...what I don't see, is where it spoke to you and said its whys...nor in the rest of yours...

When I looked inside with lying...I was told, "I'm here to protect others from you, and you from others...protect them from who you really are in order to keep love and acceptance. To be seen as good. To not do damage."

Does that resonate at all?

Irresponsible...you are upset when others do not do what they say they will do...is that what you mean? When they act thoughtlessly or don't act thoughtfully? Can people actually be irresponsible, when they are inherently responsible? Could this tie into lazy, selfish or self-centered? Avoidant?

(Did I tell you how funny your "this probably won't be pleasant" was? I smiled really big...and no, this isn't pleasant...yet...hang on until the end...)

What does Condenscion say to you when you ask why are you in me? What about Pretension? Could you listen again and tell me what it says, other than possibly a need to feel superior?

Rationalizer...very original...have dealt with this one before...could you listen to this one and find out why it is in you, also?

Lazy...you're talking to someone who believes this is not a human trait...impossible...it is a human fear only...the idea of what we don't want...the boogieman; the monster under the bed...and when we believe we see it in others, it is something else...a catch-all...does it go with irresponsible? Define it more...narrow it down...you could be the one to prove to me it exists...

Avoidant...what do you mean, maybe in context of the affair? Do you mean you don't like others to avoid truth, not be direct? Beat around the bush or not take on things head on?

Insincere...how do you measure someone else's sincerity? And when you say this isn't you...when you attempt perfection, and someone praises you sincerely and you say, "Thank you" and don't believe them...you're not good enough...no matter what you do...unless perfect...wouldn't that be insincere? And if you agree, tell why it is in you...

Conceited...tooting your own horn (a trigger phrase in our household)...to establish you're better than OW? To let people know you've covered your bases...done your stuff...you're on it? What did this trait say when you asked why it was in you?

Selfish and self-centered...sounds like there's a glimmer of light in seeing these as healthy...and by feeling incapable of them, you are jealous of others who appear to take care of themselves first, and then others?

Really important...please identify why you have this deep aversion, how it helps you (we don't do stuff without a payoff)...and how it is possibly true that you believe you are incapable of putting yourself first...

Mean-spirited...another first...phrased this way...are you saying you believe by having aching, hurtful, attacking thoughts of OW invades your spirit with meanness? As if you have the intent to send her mean vibes? Punishment through mislaid prayer? When you see others being what you call mean-spirited, how did you feel before the A? Is it different now? What did mean-spirited tell you, when you asked?

Same for cold-hearted...although I see a distinction...tell me what they told you their purpose, and we can continue.

Brave and true, Lizzie...that's what I see. Extraordinary courage and curiosity...takes a lot to do this exercise...

I look forward to your post.

LA

Hi, I just wanted to let you know that I do intend to get on this assignment today.

For anyone needing a list of character traits I found a great webpage, to help with the examination aspect.

CHARACTER TRAITS

have a great day!

Thank you for the link, Rin...hope today shines for you...and you shine with it!

LA

Okay, I finished my list:

Shrewd-Abusive, hard, sharp, piercing; I can say that I have be abusive both verbally and emotional. I can see this with my kids, H, and OP, in the past. I'm still learning and caughting myself from time to time. I was mean, cold-hearted, because, I needed to intimidate to feel like someone.

Opinionated-unduly adhering to one's own opinion or preconcieved notions. I have been opinionated; I think that a little of this can be healthy, I own it! However, I think that some opinion need backing or facts and without facts or false information, the opinion is invalid.

Naive-deficient in worldly wisdom or informed judgement- I don't feel that I have this in all areas. If I do find an area, I am willing to learn. Would I be consider naive about the A?

Petulent-insolent or rude in speech or behavior; until I started learning about myself, I could say that I was petulent mainlt from being uncomfortable in a situation. Not knowing what to say or do, more than likely fear of being judged, fear being made to feel inferior. Fear of not being accepted, feeling out of place.

Stolid-having or expressing little or no senibility; I have found myself withdrawen so many days unable to feel anything. Lost! Unable to give or recieve love, happiness, anger, or ANYTHING!

Insipid-lacking in qualities that interest, stimulate, or challenge; I don't feel this has anything to do with me, I'm the opposite. I love a challenge, to stimulate and be stimulated with knowledge, new things. It's the foundation for who I am for what I want out of life.

Immature-I'm am so mature if not funny! I've been this way me whole life. Had to be, due to abuse, I was a child adult!

Impulsive-I'm impulsive when my feelings get the best on me. I'm not an impulsive shopper. I can gun the gun of decisions, and think I should have handled it differently.

Negligent-I think this can go with Stolid. Not feeling, withdrawing, thus negliging, on purpose. Anyone including myself, and anything!

Facetious-I have done this as a form of sarcasm. Saying things to hurt in the form of a joke. I can remember doing this maybe six or seven weeks ago talking with H about A. It's not who I want to be, and am choosing to change that behavior. It's abusive and I don't want to be abusive.

Stubborn-See shrewd and stolid. It's a form of rebellion, intented to hurt or to manipulate, control! Wanting the OP to give in, to allow me to win.

Dishonest/Deceptive-I can say that I despite this more that anything. I was raise with secrets, skeletons in the closet, even H has everyone thinking we were perfect. I guess I would be partaking in this characteristic for not speaking up. Lies by ommission, to seem best then what I am! I pride myself on being O&H, I don't like to lie. But I have when I have felt backed into a corner, or to get out of trouble, just like a child. I understand that I can handle the consquence, I can handle the fear of the truth.

Cowardly/Weak-I am/was weak/cowardly, but I'm getting strong each day. It was a result of fear of speaking up...taught to be seen and not heard as a child...combined with abusive of every form...not knowing how to break out of the cycle...creating low self-esteem, no respect for self...feeling worthless...always H's W, OS or YS's M, Mom's daughter...never me!

Obnoxious-highly offensive, disgustingly, objectionable; I can't find this trait in me. This doesn't describe me, more so I'm agreeable!

Oh, Miss Rinderella...running off to make curfew, leaves a glass slipper...the part where she asks each trait, "Why are you in me? What purpose do you serve?"

Pick up the glass slipper for me on Opinionated and post the answer it gives you to the question above...

Naivete...innocent of...lacking experience in...uninformed...unprepared? Could you ask for this one? You were naive about infidelity...we all are until we experience it...experience anything, really, aren't we?

And this one.."Stolid-having or expressing little or no senibility; I have found myself withdrawen so many days unable to feel anything. Lost! Unable to give or recieve love, happiness, anger, or ANYTHING!"

And this one: "Impulsive-I'm impulsive when my feelings get the best on me. I'm not an impulsive shopper. I can gun the gun of decisions, and think I should have handled it differently." (Hey, include the whole gun the gun thingie for me, 'cuz that's a new expression to me and I think I like it...and a little afraid to like it.)

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And this one: "Negligent-I think this can go with Stolid. Not feeling, withdrawing, thus negliging, on purpose. Anyone including myself, and anything!"

And please, this one? "Facetious-I have done this as a form of sarcasm. Saying things to hurt in the form of a joke. I can remember doing this maybe six or seven weeks ago talking with H about A. It's not who I want to be, and am choosing to change that behavior. It's abusive and I don't want to be abusive."

This one, too: "Stubborn-See shrewd and stolid. It's a form of rebellion, intented to hurt or to manipulate, control! Wanting the OP to give in, to allow me to win."

And "Dishonest/Deceptive"
---------------
These are the ones you did answer:

First one...you did..."I needed to intimidate to feel like someone." So inside you, the answer was, "You need to be this way for protection...bite back...to stop others from biting you." You lacked awareness of self...as if you weren't three dimensional...so being sharp, intrusive, brought you presence...the more you discover you've been an undeniable presence all your life, the less this trait will assert itself...you remove the need when you replace the beliefs.

This one, also: Petulent-insolent or rude in speech or behavior;" Self answered: Not knowing what to say or do, more than likely fear of being judged, fear being made to feel inferior. Fear of not being accepted, feeling out of place. Petulance, insolence (that withdraw/attack) to protect you from fear of being judged, feeling less than, inferior. Protection...your new belief...we are all equal...others have opinions, their own truth, cannot define you...do you think you would need this protection?

I believe you heard this one answer: "Cowardly/Weak...It was a result of fear of speaking up..." Not speaking up protected you from responses you did not want, including being judged, bashed, defined? So when cowardice rises to protect you, it would come from self love, wouldn't it?

And as you create your self-esteem, respect your self being complete and whole...created by God without a role...before you were born...inherently you...ever step of the way of your life...and finding your choice to be who you really are, within your chosen roles...do you think weakness will arise to protect you from what can no longer hurt you?
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The Villagers you didn't find in yourself:

You don't like people who are Insipid. You believe they -lack qualities that interest, stimulate, or challenge. Would you consider a) this is judging someone else inferior, which you fear being judged as; and b) that you aren't seeing God's design with loving eyes, from fear? Could you hold the person that brought this to mind and find another trait...and see if this is really in reaction to that one? Or do you feel shut out from superficiality? Non-intimacy...having nothing to do with qualities...only that you may feel they aren't sharing with YOU what is interesting, stimulating about themselves?

If you would reconsider this trait, if you find something that resonates within you...that tiny villager...will you then ask him the question?

"Immature-I'm am so mature if not funny! I've been this way me whole life. Had to be, due to abuse, I was a child adult!" Adult children are not mature...they are false mature. Maturity comes from experience...why we "grow" to be adults...no time frame, really...what we experience as children is as children...we can re-experience it as adults and have different reactions (most likely, same feelings and the urge to react in the same way...automatically)...adults know they choose their beliefs, thoughts, perspectives and perceptions...did you know that as a child? When you own all your villagers, will you consider coming back to this one? Probe it gently, nuzzle it a bit...and see what you find?

"Obnoxious-highly offensive, disgustingly, objectionable; I can't find this trait in me. This doesn't describe me, more so I'm agreeable!" Would you consider this with Opinionated? When someone is overbearing...they are putting themselves over others...their thoughts, negligent attitude...onto others, maybe, in your eyes? Claiming more attention, distracting from equal attention? Or do you mean contrary...disagreeable, argumentative? Their way or the highway? Possibly compulsive? Talk too loudly or over others? Repeating their thoughts over and over again? Over the top? Dramatic? Could you probe this one a little more to find where it bites you, specifically?

Rin,

I know you're going to have great RC time and will get back to this next week or so...I value you very much you posting, as I found more villagers in my self...and I'm hugging them right now.

Thank you.

LA

Oh, that's the magic questions! DUH! I was asking the wrong ones. Okay, I'll work on it! At least, I got to play a little. I didn't get that homerun, but as least I got walked to first base! Batter up!

That's another thing that's making this assignment difficult for me. I'm looking at two different people, one pre D-day and the other post. There's a complete difference. I don't even feel what I did for OW anymore. It turned from resentment and wanting to attack, to sympathy. Who do I focus on, I'm in a growth spurth! LOL

LA,

Here's my next attempt at this. I think I get it now.

Liar/Cheater is in me for the same reasons you listed for yourself...it protects me from others, from their judgment, from being found wanting. At the same time, it also protects others from me, from knowing who I really am so that I don't disappoint them.

Irresponsible is tied to lazy, self-centered, selfish, and avoidant. People inherently responsible? Not sure about that - I think you'll have to convince me. I think it has to do with not doing the right thing, acting prudently, meaning what you say and saying what you mean. Why are these things in me? What do they do for me? As you said, I think these traits - if I embraced them - would allow me to take care of myself, to stop feeling like I MUST and SHOULD fix everything; that they would free me from the stuff that isn't mine to own. But that would mean that I would have to give up control. Sometimes I think that is next to impossible for me. That has been my coping mechanism for as long as I can remember. The avoidant piece is in me because it allows me to put off facing failure. That's what I meant in context of the affair. If I just keep letting WH string me along, I hold on to some fantasy that I can control things with HIM, that I'll be able to MAKE him see how wrong his choices are, that I can FIX this. Avoiding perpetuates that fantasy.

Condescending/Pretentious/Conceited. I'll group these together because maybe they are actually two sides of the same coin. Because of my feelings of duplicity, these traits tug me in opposite directions. I see true acknowledgement of my accomplishments as conceit while at the same time the liar/cheater part of me that feels like I am only putting on a front accuses me of being pretentious. Pretension is just a prettier way of saying liar. Conceit, "tooting my own horn", is in me because it does make me validated...not inside, but from others. I remember as a child, in the midst of all of my father's abuse, starting school and finding an escape there. I would bring home paper after paper with gold stars on them. Those gold stars became a lifeline for me - they proved that I was good even when all I heard was that I was not and only deserved the abuse that I had brought on myself. I still think there's more here with this one. I feel like these things function in me as smokescreens (think of the little man behind the controls of the "Great and Powerful Oz" who dared anyone to question who he was or what his role was). And yes, in the context of the affair, I want people to know that I am in every way better than the OW.

Insincere - good point, I guess you really can't measure someone's sincerity...that would be a DJ wouldn't it? To do that - and I do - would be to question motives. This is in me because it allows me to again "do the right thing" even when I don't want to. My motivations are often suspect...rooted in a fear of failure or a sense of gaining control.

Rationalizer...justifies my behavior when it is less than "perfect", when it is out of control. I used this quite recently when I retaliated against my WH by engaging in my own A. I wanted to hurt, to get back, to make him feel what I had felt, so I rationalized it away as loneliness. Did you read that? Control again...I wanted to MAKE him.....
Rationalization protects me from fully facing my own shortcomings.

Mean-spirited and cold-hearted. Yes, there is a distinction. Cold-hearted protects me. It puts up walls and boundaries that are for me and tries to spare me more pain. Mean-spirited is in me because it perpetuates my sense of justice...what goes around comes around...but it scares me because I think that maybe my mean thoughts over the years have returned to haunt me. Back to childhood and not deserving?

My, how tangled this is becoming.


After so much heartache in life, I settled into my marriage and eventually gained a sense of serenity and security. I shared all of myself with WH, the good and the bad...I gave him a look into me that nobody else had seen. And he chose someone else...twice now. Here's that Catholic upbringing - guilt and punishment.

Another story. As a 7 year old child, I went to confession for the first time. Filled with awe and fear, I recounted to the priest all of my terrible sins. I received a stern lecture and did my penance. I felt so terrible about my sins and went home and decided that I was going to spend the next week avoiding sin at all costs. I helped my mother, didn't fight with my sister or brother, told the truth, and prayed all the time. The day of confession arrived and I felt so good...I had no sins to confess. The priest literally blew up at me and lectured me about the sins of pride and vanity and gave me an even harsher penance.

I am no longer a practicing Catholic.

OK LA, because I love a challenge, I saved Lazy for last. Here's my take on lazy: lazy = victim. Fear is definitely a piece of it, as is irresponsibility and avoidance. Lazy is a human trait, it is a choice. Even inactivity is a choice. Lazy is passive, lazy is hoping that someone else will act for you, make a choice for you. This lets you - or rather me, since this is about me - off the hook, so to speak. Light bulb moment!!! I am doing this in my own situation as we speak. I just found out that my WH has started "seeing someone else" - OW #2. He's running away from me and I have been chasing - trying to fix, control, reason, plead, force. I have been waiting for him to make the decision instead of making one myself. I have been considering an ultimatum, but I am afraid that I won't like his choice. I am being lazy, inactive, a victim, and avoiding.

Now I am really confused. Need to do more work.

LA, it is amazing how much time you dedicate to reading and responding to these responses. Thank you so much for your time.

Looking forward to your responses.

okay, it;s been a slow day and I've worked on this all day long...probing, thinking, wondering...starting over...and here's what I got...

Shrewd/Stolid/Obnoxious-retaliation, protection; to be used a s a tool in battle for self;I am slowly getting rid of these tools. No need to fight for self!

Opinionated-It's who I am speaking up, it's the way I express myself, it's neccessary for my survival.

Naive-either I haven't experienced it yet, or I'm choosing to be naive! Protection!

Petulent/facetious- To be comfortable in a situation, fear of being judged, fear being made to feel inferior, not being accepted, out of place. Wanting to fit in!

Insipid-because I am not whole, I haven't found those qualities in myself that are interesting to me. It gives me hope, ambition, a drive to keep going!

Immature- This is going to need more thought, I guess, the only thing I can think of is that I'm as mature as I'm going to get. However, I get to act like a kid when I let go. I'm able to play whether it's the dirt, water, or HideNSeek. It's a release from adult life, the responsibles, to have fun, to be silly, to make people laugh!

Implusive/Impatience-It's my inner child wanting to be heard, screaming for attention, fairness, affection!

Negligent-to serve myself, to care for self, to rest, to relax!

Stubborn- to hold true to self, not to be a push over, walked on, to stand up for what I feel, think, belief. not to be taken advantage of!

Dishonest/Deceptive- Self deception, arising out of expectations for and/or from others, protection from expectations, possible from reality

Cowardly/weak- to be sympathic with others, to feel what they feel, to be humbled, to admit when I'm wrong!

LA - I have made progress.

After doing this I went outside, went into my pool, floated on my back...listened to the sound of my own breathing...my own heartbeat...just being..

It felt great.

I had a list of things that I wanted to do this weekend, but instaed, the boys and I have ordered Chinese food, and I see nothing but movies and a Nichols Sparks novel in my future!! Selfish, but I think it's OK!

BTW, since working on this exercise over the past few days, i have changed some of my thought processes as far as my WH is concerned. I have composed a different letter to him. If you have the time I would appreciate if you would check out my latest thread
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3044951
and offer any feedback. Thanks.

Lizzie,

"Irresponsible is tied to lazy, self-centered, selfish, and avoidant. People inherently responsible? Not sure about that - I think you'll have to convince me."

Here's my belief about the three realities of being human...we have inherent responsibility within God's design...we are responsible for ourselves...we can only control our thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perspectives, perceptions...our stuff. Whether we choose to believe this or not, is our choice (see the inherent?)...and does not remove our responsibility. Our influence on others is limited by them...we do influence, even with just our presence...this influence can be blocked out, selectively let in...not within our control, ergo, not our responsibility.

Our freedom comes from this limitation...we cannot control others. Their choice is the same as ours...constantly theirs. Our influence is limited to their choice.

Love is a choice we make, even if we choose to see it in another way--earning it. We choose to love, I believe, at a soul-like level, and upwards to even a skin-level, which is why we have different relationship levels with others...not in their control to make us love them, but in our own to love. These three realities tend to loop back to one and the other, all based on our limits and power, from our choices.

If we think--"Hey, he's not taking responsibility for himself!" is that an accurate statement? Or, "He's not acknowledging the reality that he is responsible for his stuff"?

Consider avoidant...which I am seeing as conflict avoidance, for this example. "I don't want to cause her pain, so I will not tell her what I feel." Is this self-centered or selfish by your definitions? He is placing your stuff ahead of his own...and it still feels icky and a lie, doesn't it? The premise is off...he is assuming (DJ) he has the power to cause, control and cure her of what is solely hers...in essence, a lie to himself. We can sniff this stuff out without even checking our beliefs.

What I call this line of reasoning (his belief in the example) is manipulation...which is for my purposes, fantasy. Not reality. I say this because we can catch ourselves manipulating instead of living our truth pretty easily by looking for reality when we reason things out. If I choose to believe I can raise your spirits, ease your pain, be a source of strength to you...am I in fantasy or reality? I believe I'm manipulating. Fantasy.

The influence allowed in can increase the choices you have in your life only by your choice of expanding your perspective...still your stuff...and the choices are already there...they remain (reality) whether we see them or not. Others really aren't our mood-modifiers or strength...unless we choose that perspective. Choice is inherent in our design. Therefore, responsibility and freedom are, also.

Consider control a fantasy when it comes to others...I was shocked to learn that coping skills are not living skills.

Wha?

Yep. How to cope with ourselves, our stuff, isn't living our truth. Part of learning to embrace all your villagers is a living skill, not a coping skill. Coping is surviving; living is thriving. The choice remains constant.

So if this control you don't want to give up is your influence on others...you can see that as your participation in a joint fantasy...you make others happy, prosperous, valued, worthy, erased...to do this, you must step over their inherent choice...their part...and by believing the fantasy instead of accepting the reality, you remove respect from all your relationships, don't you? Including the one with yourself.

So what I hear you saying is that these things help you cope...keep you going...serve your motivation, comfort your fears, all except the fear of failure, which is pervasive...would you consider that avoidant and lazy may appear to side-step failure? Can't fail if you don't try? A woman of so much effort might fear that the most...because you choose to believe failure comes from efforts not getting the results you want. In my belief system, failure comes from not choosing to use my own tools, period. Letting go results, which are not, and never have been, within your control is the first step I took in changing my participation from fantasy to reality.

Scary. Hugely scary. Totally doable...because it is already true. Stepping into truth, when really, you're already in it, isn't nearly as difficult as your fear makes it out to be...once you get that all you're doing is shifting two inches to the left, and already there.

The fake trio--condenscending/pretentious/conceited...can you hear your inner child in these? Your images went to childhood and hung there...even with OW...you nailed this is where you learned to live externally, through others--their definitions of you, earning love, earning punishment (abuse)...which leaves you in control of how you're loved, appreciated and admired...as long as you're cautious enough not to throw it away by putting on airs, knowing you're good (and how could you, if it is solely dependent on what others think?); or acting as if someone else doesn't know what is good for them? Can you see the inner conflict here begins with the premise that we are lovable from doing, not being? Why would God create humans to earn what he already made within us? Valuable, worthy, complete and whole? Would you make your children, had you the power, with a defect to overcome? Or would you give them everything they needed for life...and respected their choice entirely?

So when you believe others are conceited...they too their own horn, what if they were acknowledging God's creation, their choice to live as selves and be joyously happy about it? Or if they push it, tooting their horn a lot, not see they are wanting what you want...to be validated from the outside, because their achievements are not enough within them...if those achievements are commented on, recognized, then they don't exist to them?

Pretention, too...pretending to be what we do not believe we are...from fear.

Condescending...well, all these labels, especially this one, are DJs...because they are how we see others...our interpretations...not their own truth. You can feel someone is acting condescending to you...telling you what you already know as if you didn't...and this can bite down hard in us because we tell self we are ignorant, reckless, harmful all the time by our actions...we condescend to self...

Would you consider self knows? Self knows there isn't a thing wrong inside it...it got pushed aside when we really young because it didn't protect us from parental anger (and we believed anger was the end of love); didn't get us constant positive strokes, didn't get us what we thought we wanted when we'd lived two or four years on this earth...so we created a self-image, to protect us, so we would survive (rejection feels like death...and it is, in a way...death of self)...and "finding ourselves" is truth...reclaiming who we were before we began re-creating what God did, with tiny hands and very limited experience...?

Self has no need to condescend, pretend or brag...self-image, however, is a false image, need constant support, validation, acknowledgement to survive, doesn't it?

For protection.

God made self from love; we made self-image from fear. That's where I am in my beliefs...both are our journey...choosing which one to embrace, know and love...and why...gets us back to self as made. So we can live in the realities that are...freedom, love and responsibility.


"My, how tangled this is becoming."

Here is where you realize reality...simple and far more complicated than we expect. All of your traits you listed are not from being bad, doing bad...they are for your protection from...and from what is what you're getting to...because you can already see that if your premise in life is earning love, earning punishment, then you will love when it is earned and punish others when it is not.

One premise behind the web...changing that, changes you. This is the journey to true ownership of what you can and cannot control...that Serenity prayer? That's packed with this wisdom...that is the difference between owning real self and letting go self-image...owning all of you...accepting all of you, as you were made. Can you feel that freedom? Can you feel that responsibility (it is not a weight, but a delight); and can you feel true love, when you get there?

Thank you, deeply, for sharing your Confession story (and everything else)...that was my story, too...and you nailed where your fear of failure really comes from...which was, even if I do everything right, the right way, the right thing, someone else may judge me (and the priest violates this biblical commandment NOT to), and I will have failed.

Rejoice in this lesson, Lizzie...God's hand in yours, right there...you succeeded in earning the perfect right to be loved, and then not feel loved, anyway...and it felt as if you were erased. Am I talking about that week and confession, or the A?

Which comes to lazy...which you see victim in...and I see human being...not human doing. Victim is someone who is being done to--held against their will, their choice--trapped physically, taken from (robbed), forced...

Could it be "blameless"? I am not equating these two...yet I see how victim triggered you well in your marital situation...not lazy. Lizzie, this was a villager of mine of great importance...my WH's claim he was blameless because he was incapable...not in his design to be intimate, talk or fill my needs. My control freaky nature could not tolerate him being blameless...it was what I thirsted for with every molecule...and when I looked within and got to where God created me...blameless, whole, complete and loved before my first molecule was formed, I got why I wanted this desperately from my DH...because I wasn't acknowledging it in myself...

If you make others earn your love, then you make yourself earn your love...don't you? If you believe you earn love, this is the two-way street of our belief system...always in balance...and if you don't earn your own love, what do you earn? Self-punishment.

Talk about tangled...yet as straight and true as anything.

When you think further on all that is in you...when you got where you rationalize, the why of it, did you feel anything ease in you? These are child-like defenses who come to help us punch out the bully, with tiny hands when facing a giant...did you feel that in what you discovered? A tenderness, knowing your own motive, that these were created by you around that age, to punch back, even though futile?

Lazy as paralyzed by fear...when BS say, "Why isn't he working on the marriage?" is it because they are so now used to working on themselves, that they have forgotten that fast how difficult, full of fear, it was to look inside? I wonder...paralyzed by fear being seen as lazy...what do you think? A victim of ourselves, our own making? A belief we are useless, hopeless, defective? Isn't that a fantasy? And isn't your WH full of fantasy, not reality? How about you?

When I say, "Focus on yourself" for Plan A, B, for life...is that self-centered? Selfish? Or is that the truth of God's design? When we get our premise beliefs known, and chose them differently, replace them...will we not be a fount of love, flowing from within, outward? Overflowing? Loving by choice, our power, our freedom, and see everyone and everthing differently?

Will we not hear others' stories, from their perspectives, and hear their beliefs as theirs? Respecting all for being separate and equal, and marvelously made? When you truly know your WH is choosing his life (as you said, not choosing is choosing)...not you...will you fear losing control you never had? Or fly in the freedom of being limited?

Respect saves marriages, relationships...especially with ourselves. Embrace who you really are, Lizzie...you'll find yourself lovely, lovable, equal to everyone, not needing to be more than or less than...and self will come home, 'cuz your self is already there.

Know you are in the throes of your great journey...waking up to a lot...and what you are experiencing right now in your life is a replay of several times before...going far back (you're good at linking those)...and that listening to yourself, seeing self hand you images to help you...you're not alone. You can't be. And by sharing your journey here, and with others in your life, is you affirming your self, your true self, after years of rejecting it...

Posters say, "Do the 180 plan" and I cringe...more self-image stuff, crazymaking...yet setting your premise from adult experience, embracing all of you can look from the outside like the 180...only it will be authentic, not manipulation, and you will no longer betray your self. Halves the pain of others' betrayal...halves the fear of abandonment...we are no longer abandoning ourselves...when we stop coping and begin living, respectfully.

Because of you, Rin, BB, and so many others, I keep realigning myself here, with my self, because of all the years of habit of living lost; you are the gift to me. Your O&H ripples around the world. I'm really grateful, no modesty here, to share how God brought all this to me, as he had over and over again in my life...and this time, I took it...I can't think of what else life is really about.

LA

Rin,

"okay, it;s been a slow day and I've worked on this all day long...probing, thinking, wondering...starting over...and here's what I got..."

You got a lot. LOL! You knew that.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

"Shrewd/Stolid/Obnoxious-retaliation, protection; to be used a s a tool in battle for self;I am slowly getting rid of these tools. No need to fight for self!"

Be careful here, my darling perfectionistic woman, so that you don't create another false self-image on top of the old one, on top of real self..."Getting rid of these tools" isn't an option...they were created by you, for you, for your protection, signals to your fear, if they pop back up; eager children, as I said to Lizzie, trying with tiny hands to punch a giant for you...they are part of you. Disowning our villagers kinda got us here?

And if you get rid of them, how will you react when you see these in others?

"Opinionated-It's who I am speaking up, it's the way I express myself, it's neccessary for my survival."

Would you consider all humans are opinionated? We are living, breathing opinions? Opinions are what we form from our experience, what we see outside and from the inside, and display our filters, weaknesses, strengths, love, choices? You really brought me to this by your "necessary for my survival"...because I think that nails what intimacy truly is...our existence through sharing who we really are...thank you, Rin! How about the choice to express our opinion and when not to? Our opinions remain, the choice is ours? Would that be what you really saw in others? When their choice to express, express, express...stopped being about showing our true selves, and became trying to change others' selves?

"Naive-either I haven't experienced it yet, or I'm choosing to be naive! Protection!

Petulent/facetious- To be comfortable in a situation, fear of being judged, fear being made to feel inferior, not being accepted, out of place. Wanting to fit in!"

What if acting petulantly is your belief that others will know your thoughts, feelings, beliefs because you show it instead of state it? Or it gets them to ask why, so then you state it? What if it is manipulative, and that's why it triggers in you when others pout, demonstrate their ire physically? When you ask them "What's up?" it would be what you would want others to do when you acted that way, is that close? When others ask, that affirms you exist...you're real...you count...what if all your fears of being judged, excluded, not fitting in would be reduced or eliminated if you believed in yourself that you exist, You Are, as a human, separate and equal to everyone else...and what you're most longing for is accepting yourself, not being accepted by others?

"Insipid-because I am not whole, I haven't found those qualities in myself that are interesting to me. It gives me hope, ambition, a drive to keep going!"

Could you fear others seeing you as insipid? That if you weren't vigilant about being interesting to others, then you might be taken that way? You are whole...what you are seeing is gaps in your self-image, not self. Would choosing to believe that all humans are this fascinating, complex, layered, twisty and fabulous, aid you in not having to be vigilant? Just be?

"Immature- This is going to need more thought, I guess, the only thing I can think of is that I'm as mature as I'm going to get. However, I get to act like a kid when I let go. I'm able to play whether it's the dirt, water, or HideNSeek. It's a release from adult life, the responsibles, to have fun, to be silly, to make people laugh!" <--sounds like you are mature, in that you keep in touch with your inner child...well, P/As are in constant touch with their inner child...they react as if they are that child...and the difference? Being aware you're there and unaware when you are...sounds like you know the difference.

Can you tell me again what is immature to you in others? Where you judge them immature and it bites you?

"Implusive/Impatience-It's my inner child wanting to be heard, screaming for attention, fairness, affection!"

Is it screaming for attention, fairness and affection from YOU or someone else?

"Negligent-to serve myself, to care for self, to rest, to relax!"

So this would be negligent because you were designed to serve, care for, give rest and relaxation to others and not to yourself? Am I close?

"Stubborn- to hold true to self, not to be a push over, walked on, to stand up for what I feel, think, belief. not to be taken advantage of!"

Wow, would this be like a car accident with negligence? What if in order not to negligent, you had to be a doormat?

"Dishonest/Deceptive- Self deception, arising out of expectations for and/or from others, protection from expectations, possible from reality"

If you choose to lie from guilt, then you are attempting to live up to others' expectations; if you are lying from shame, that would be not living up to your own...can you break down the self-deception for me, this way? Each is protecting you from consequences...well, not really...because if it's others' expectations, well, you have no control, do ya?

"Cowardly/weak- to be sympathic with others, to feel what they feel, to be humbled, to admit when I'm wrong!"

How does this protect you? Does it protect you from taking on responsibility, having to be the hero, of what isn't yours? Or weak as in giving up your desire to control what isn't?

Maybe protect you from being unsympathetic, calloused, conceited? Do you really need to be protected from those things?

I hope you're having a MAHVELOUS weekend with WH...would you say your rush into getting all of your stuff right away is impulsive? As if you'll cause more harm if you don't? Is there a fear there? I ask because I was like that...and it impedes rather than accelerates...my perspective.

LA

LA -

"I was shocked to learn that coping skills are not living skills." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />Me too..

Thank you for your post...a lot of new perspectives for me...and maybe some stuff that I have known all along that I somehow lost...

I like your word - realigning. I see a lot of that in my future. I see a journey. Thanks for helping me to see where the path begins, truly.