Herb:

"How long do I keep this up before I determine that I should've seen results? Probably impossible to know and different for every situation."

You'll know it's been long enough when you realize that it doesn't matter.

You have every right 2 hope for a better fu2re.

You should stop expecting, though. Stop looking 2 influence a particular outcome.

-ol' 2long

I think there may be a misunderstanding here on what my situation is.


I was told over and over not to tell her that I want this marriage to succeed. Right now she thinks that I have no idea how to fix our marriage and sustain feelings of being in love. All of the needs that I can meet show her nothing about what is keeping us apart. It shows her that I'm a great guy, which she already firmly believes. The issue that's keeping us apart is that she believes that if we were to reconnect, that we would just fall out of love again in a couple of months. With the knowledge I have gained due to all of this, that wouldn't happen, but there's no way for her to know this and no reason for her to even suspect it. The whole reason she's out dating is because she thinks that there's no way I can be the one, so she's looking for the one. She has no idea that I could very easily be the one for her with the knowledge I have gained here.

I think what you said to do there is exactly what I'm going to do. I'm going to end these mindgames of her thinking I'm moving on because she just magically didn't stay in love with me. I'm going to end these mindgames of her not knowing that I have learned how to make the future us entirely different than the us she thinks of when she thinks of reconciling. I'm going to do just that and nothing more. The issue thats gotten between us is not what she thinks of me. She thinks I'm great. The issue here is that she didn't think that she could stay in love with me because it failed the first time we tried. I know differently now. She has no reason to believe otherwise unless I give her some indication that I've sought help to learn how to fall in love and stay in love.

As soon as my income is settled so that meeting her most important EN for financial security, I'm going to quickly and concisely tell her the following in person (I've decided way too much of this has gone on over the phone or on AIM...things always go differently when she and I are face to face) -

(Using your advice of getting someone to change their mind by agreeing with them.)

"Remember how you asked me at one point how you could know that things would be different if we reconnect? When you asked, I had no idea. I think you were completely right. I agree that you had no reason to believe that would ever change. But because of all this, I've sought help and I know exactly what to do to fall in love and stay in love forever. If thats something you want to look into, thats entirely up to you. If not, I completely respect your decision. No one knows better what's best for you than you."

After that, I simply make my exit and let her think about it. She may recoil at first.... she may not. I'd have to expect it wouldn't change her mind. But at least it would be in the back of her head when she thinks about "us". Right now, there's no "maybe" in her head. Its just "no, it won't work".

Mindgames aren't me. Whenever I'm not myself, I get into trouble. I need to be honest with her without being disrespectful or trying to trick her into a certain decision. I need to make her aware of this possibility and let her decide if thats something she wants to explore.

You have to show changes though Herb, otherwise they are seen as a ploy, and this takes time.

There is no doubt that when someone gets left in a relationship (even though you left the house, she left the marriage in her mind first) they can and do often change instantly...it's an epiphany and it usually takes a blow like this to get it, finally.

However it is just not that easy to change someone's mind once they have decided there is no hope.

So you are left with the painful task of making these changes, of taking a very, very honest and hard look at yourself, of forgiving yourself and accepting that all you can do is become the person you should have been before.

She thinks you are a great guy but not great enough to stay married to? Or she thinks that love is a magic that just happens and nothing one does can influence this? Or was it both of you who felt this way, until you started learning. Or is it that she thinks this is what you think?

She now has the mindset of a wayward spouse, and my point is she has to come to the realization on her own that love is a choice and both of you need to choose this and then work at it.

So she sees you choosing this now, and this will show her that you are the strong, stable, loving husband who is going to stand strong in his convictions regarding the marriage but who also loves her enough to let her go if that is what she wants.

And when she feels the loss of you, like you did of her, she may have this same epiphany or it may happen slowly over time.

So yes become the person you need to become for your sake as well as any relationship you are ever in again, including the one with her if that so happens...no mind games in that.

I agree with you about pretending that you have moved on as a ploy is not a good idea at this point.

Everything now has to be real, but you can't just get in her face and tell her stuff...it doesn't work that way.

You are the only one who knows what the best approach is in your sitch, you are the only who has the true sense of what is going on, but wayward spouse's (and she is one) all seem to go by the same handbook and they are somewhat predictable.

Oh and helping her out while she dates other guys...yes do it, any chance to build a friendship with her, any chance to show your positive changes, and chance to meet her needs is good.

There is nothing doormat-y about helping her out but it can't and shouldn't go on forever, it is short term and is part of Plan A.

I agree and thats what I've been doing. However, I believe these changes she sees in me are reduced to noticing I listen more attentively and actively, validating her feelings and giving her compliments. Everything else about me is the same and she thought the rest of me was great but not right for her only because she fell out of love with the rest of me. These new things she's noticing don't address that issue. Actively listening, validating her feelings and giving her compliments on a regular basis won't make her think thats enough to not fall out of love with me again should we try to reconnect. This is why I feel she has to know there are more changes than just the ones she's letting me show. These other changes in what I've learned aren't about me, they're about love in general and I can't show her those lessons by doing them without getting the chance to reconnect in the first place.


I understand what you are saying. Again, I don't see how she would ever know about the changes that aren't about me but about how staying in love really works if I never get the chance to show her them... because she stops herself from going down that path with me... because she thinks we'd just fall out of love again.. because she thinks there's no way to have an effect on staying in love.


She thinks I'm a great guy and was a good enough husband, but that for some unknown reason (that is out of our control) we drifted apart. She thinks there's no reason to believe it would be any different if we drifted back together. I believe any twinge she gets to reconnect with me is being or will be hammered by that mindset that there is no future for us.


Exactly. That is exactly what she thinks because she thinks that I did enough things right because I'm a great guy. If she was with a great guy and still fell out of love, staying in love must be completely up to chance and requires magically finding the right person. Thats what she's doing right now... going out and trying to find the right person.


When we hit this crossroad, I had no idea why she fell out of love with me. I had no idea if anything could fix it. When she asked me what would make things different the next time we reconnected, I had no answers. Now I do. I want her to know that.


What could possibly happen to make her realize that on her own? I see nothing except if I make an effort to present what I've learned to her. She has absolutely no one in her life that would know any better that could "enlighten" her.


She sees me choosing to be an active listener, validating her feelings and giving her more compliments. She has no idea that I've swallowed my pride and done what I needed to do to learn how to fall in love again and stay that way... for both of our sakes.


I completely agree but this hinges on her being in the same mindset as I am now that staying in love is something we can both have an effect on... that it isn't just magic.


Well said. This is exactly what I've been doing. This is also the angle I will take when I approach her with what I've learned. I plan on prefacing everything with that exact thing... that these are things I've learned and am excited to use in my next relationship regardless of what happens between her and I.


Agreed. I believe I will tell her the absolute basics of the things I've learned the next time she asks if I'm doing ok. I will tell her that I'm doing great due to some things I've learned from getting help on staying in love. I will tell her that life is a lot brighter knowing that my next relationship will sustain those feelings of being in love as long as I want them to. I will then make sure I've made it clear that these are changes in me and that if these lessons learned are something she'd like to look into with me, thats completely up to her and no one can decide what is worth looking into for her except her.


Good points. I will continue to do so.

I know what I need to do now. I plan on breaching the topic the next time she asks how things are going or, less likely, if she notices and asks about how I've been acting differently lately.

Today I took "her" dog back over to the house. She had told me when we talked on the phone last night that she'd call on her way home from work to let me know she'd be home. This is a change in that, previous to now, she'd made attempts not to be there when I was or was just indifferent. This time she (perhaps unconsciously) made sure that she'd be there. This could just be to make sure I'm not snooping through the house, but my gut wants to think it is that she's been enjoying talking to me lately.

I got there a couple of minutes before she got back from the grocery store and had already started working on replacing the battery on the riding lawn mower that she'd asked me to take a look at. She took her bags in, came back out with an apple, sat on the other side of the garage and we talked back and forth while I worked on it. She looked absolutely amazing. She's been tanning again (she stopped while we were married due to several precancerous spots being removed, but she's thrown caution to the wind at this point). She looks just like she did the day we met. When I saw her I nearly choked. It was the exact same feeling as the first time we met, for me anyway. I'd gone tanning too but I'm fair skinned so, I look better than I did all pastey white, but still haven't gained much weight back. I dressed well, but not too well since I was going to be getting grease all over me working on the mower.

Anyway, we sat and talked back and forth about random things. At one point I looked over at her and she was looking down to cut her apple. When she looked up I told her she looked really nice today... really. I think it caught her off guard because she paused a split second, then suddenly cheesed really big and just said thanks!

So, I finished working on the mower, got it running, made a quick joke about "getting her green acres on" and made my exit. Didn't try to stick around or find reasons to stay there longer even though I wanted to.

It went well, but she showed no signs of anything past friends. Even though everything was positive, I still drove away feeling down. I'd have given anything for her to ask me to come in for a little while, but she didn't. She just said alright well thanks for fixing that for me.

I think the brief moment we were both staring at each other when I told her she looked great may have given her a little twinge of old memories. I think that if it had sparked any interest in showing me that she was interested the least bit, that she wouldn't have because A) she doesn't want to mess with my head if she doesn't know for sure what she wants and B) she still thinks there's no future for us.

I don't know if two weeks ago she felt no interest in me and no attraction because she felt there was no future... or if she felt no interest in me because of all the stupid things I'd done right before then (spying, snooping, angry outbursts and clinging). I have no idea if she still feels that way at all or not. She'd never tell me either way, regardless of which of those two things are the reason.

One thing on my mind about mentioning this alternate view of staying in love is the money issue. Today she asked me on the phone how I was going to pay my expenses since we're still a long ways off from selling a house for a profit. I explained to her that my expenses get paid up front from the funder and those expenses are subtracted from the profit I receive at the end. She seemed to accept that.

However, that doesn't get rid of the major LB for her of me not providing financial security. I may be able to provide quite a bit of cash here in a month or two, but its not a steady paycheck. The idea of me not having a steady paycheck is something she explained to me (while we were on the rocks) made her unhappy because it felt like the financial burden was on her. However, and she never said this, but her making more money than I would, even if its from a steady paycheck for me, would still probably make her feel as though the burden was on her. Or maybe it wouldn't? I don't know if a steady, lesser paycheck would make her feel better. I know that a steady job in graphics would make me less happy than something I'm really interested in such as flipping houses. I really am not sure what to do about this.

My options are:

1) Drop the house idea entirely and try to find another graphics job I'm unhappy at making 2/3 of what she does with the chance that still won't take the burden off of her.
2) Continue the house idea which is a good bet to make good money, but takes time, isn't a steady paycheck and therefore is a LB for her. Making twice as much as I used to make would help to ease that burden she feels, though. Having money in the bank is critical to her.

Do I mention my change in view on staying in love before or after I settle the financial security issue? If I continue flipping houses, that could be two months. Two months of every time she feels a twinge of attraction for me being hammered by her feelings of us having no future. She could be past the twinges by then.

Do I mention my change in view on staying in love before with the LB still there? Seems like a bad idea. Either one of my options (graphics or houses) will take time. Graphics COULD take less time if I happen to get lucky and find a job quickly, or it could be several weeks itself before I find one.

I suppose a third option would be to get a part time job somewhere barely above minimum wage to have a steady paycheck WHILE I get the house thing going during the days... but whats the point when my expenses are already being paid.

I think I'm going to work on my portfolio, submit my resume a few places (there's a pretty good job that would fit my skills extremely well on monster.com that just came up a few days ago) and see what happens there. I wish there were some way to have a steady paycheck from flipping houses, but there's just not. Rock <- Me -> Hard Place.

She keeps putting up these away messages on AIM that could be trying to tell me something or it could be for some other guy. I have no idea.



First it was the Serendipity quote...

"Look for something, find something else, and realize that what you've found is more suited to your needs than what you thought you were looking for."

Had no idea how to take that one or if it was meant for me.

Then I did something that was probably fairly stupid and put up a quote from Dr. Harley on my away message about how staying in love forever is easy to do with the right tools and skills.

She was on, had to have seen that message, but didn't respond at all. 20 minutes later she puts up another away message that says:

"Well I was sitting, waiting, wishing
You believed in superstitions
Then maybe you'd see the signs"

What the ****** am I supposed to think of that? It's really easy for me to think that she's telling me to make a move, but it could just as easily be for some other guy she's interested in.

Should I call her and just be straight up with her that I'm confused?

Well... hrmm, amazing the difference an hour makes.

I'm exhausted from the whole thing. I'll try to summarize.

To make a long story even longer, I got the opportunity during a conversation on AIM to mention that I'd sought advice. She said why? I said "my whole life burning down around me was a pretty good sign to step back and see what i was doing wrong, so I went and got some help". She just said wow, I don't even know what to say. Kept saying wow over and over again. I said I've learned a lot and they've had a lot of answers about how to stay in love. She said "if you dont mind me asking what did they have to say?". Can't explain how glad I was she asked this.

I then went on to tell her that the whole reason I'd looked for help was because I didn't want to go through this ever again. She kept asking questions and I briefly touched on some of the concepts like Emotional Needs. She asked "are these things you believe or just what they're telling you?". I said I've done a lot of reading and discussing and everything makes sense... its what I believe. When I talked about Emotional Needs, she said "that list...did you come up with it or did they?" I said the list is a list of the most common top emotional needs for spouses and that they're sort of like categories... that I've identified specific ways I didn't meet those needs. I told her that based off what I've learned, I feel that any wife who's not having their needs met will eventually fall out of love with their husband just like you did.

She just said "I'm so sorry. Seriously, I'm crying. I feel terrible. I feel like an ***hole. I'm sure I wasn't the most pleasant person and us drifting apart wasn't all your fault." I took the opportunity to explain to her that all I can control is me... that I've looked at my actions and my behavior and figured out what I need to do differently to keep someone's feelings of love.

At that point I asked her if she would like to talk on the phone about this and that I felt a little awkward talking to her about this over AIM. She said she needed to think about all this and that she's extremely emotional about her grandmother and she feels like a complete ***hole and that she's doesn't even know what to say.

I said thats completely fine. I understand that she needs time to think about this. I said if its something she feels like is worth looking into, I'd love to share it with her. She said "i am somewhat interested in what they said".

After that it turned a little different, which has left me worried...

She said "I'm just in a really weird place right now." At the same time I'd sent a message as she did saying "I just wish I'd known all of these things I've learned when you asked me the first time." She said "I didn't even know".

I said "I thought we drifted apart and there was nothing we could do about it. Now I know exactly why it happened and exactly how to keep it from happening again. If nothing else, I'll know better for next time and that gives me a huge boost of confidence."

She said I'm really proud of you.

I then may have made a mistake. I said, if I'm being completely honest, the idea of the opportunity to learn what your needs are and what makes you happy is an extremely attractie thought for me.

She said "but I feel like I still dont know what it takes to make me happy".

I said that this source may have the answers for how to figure that out. She said I feel like I have to figure it out.. I can't have someone else put thoughts in my head.

I told her that I completely understand and I felt the same way... that I felt now like they've provided me the blue prints that make sense for me.

Again, probably a mistake looking back on it, but I said "I know I can be in love with someone and have them be in love with me forever now"

She said "I'm not there yet".

A little more back and forth, then I said "Its completely up to you if its worth lookin into their suggestions. You're the only one that knows what you should do. I've gotten past tryin to change what you do and focus on changing me for the better and letting the cards fall where they may."

She said "its not that im against but right now i feel like its not for me....i want to get to know me and force myself to do that....i want to think things through and not have other people say things and me be like oh yeah that could be me".

I said I think I may understand but i want to be sure I do. She said "well i am vunerable right now....so anything anyone says im more suspectible to be like ohh yeah that could be it". It seems as though she's thinking that these solutions Marriage Builders provides sound too good to be true. She's afraid that she will buy into anything right now that sounds like it could work and could foreseeably get hurt.

After that she asked to talk about it later and that she felt brain dead at that point. She said she's having a hard time comprehending thoughts right now.

I was as supportive and understanding as possible. I mentioned that there is an entire website for the concepts. She said "send it to me in a couple days?"

After that she changed subjects to something completely irrelavent, but we were talking back and forth again even more comfortably than we had been before... about completely random things like how to hook up the DVD player.

Our conversation touched on how she'd gotten really close to her friend from work and that she'd like to form a bond with her sister when she moves in. I said I can understand, having a brother or sister to count on is huge. I told her that I'd had a long talk with my brother regarding his wife's recent prescription drug relapse and that I'd suggested to him that he seek professional advice on how to handle it before stumbling through the problem like I did with my wife.

That made her think of my nieces and nephews and she asked how the kids are handling she and I splitting up. I told her that I hadn't told them yet and didn't know what to say to them, but taht they were coming over tomorrow for Easter and I was going to have to say something. She said that made her extremely sad, that she was crying and that that breaks her heart.

Again, stupid mistake on my part, but I said, hey, who knows. Maybe these suggestions will be somethin that you'd like to look into and everything will work out. I said said if i'm being totally honest, I think that our marriage is still salvagable, but that its completely out of my hands.

She said "ive got a lot to think about...i need to seriously make myself happy before i can even attempt to make someone else happy"

I said I completely understand and that makes a lot of sense. I wasn't sure how to respond to that at all. It caught me completely off guard. I just said you don't need me to tell you what to do, I'm going to leave it toally up to you if you want to know more.

I was digging for a way to tell her I haven't been dating, so I just came right out and said it out of nowhere. "just so you know, I haven't had any interest in dating anyone at all. it wouldn't be fair to me or whoever I dated. so there's absolutely no question here, I believe we could work this out using this help."

She just said "I hear ya". I said its entirely up to you and I completely respect your decision either way. She said "I know. I appreciate that." I said "having felt what its like to be madly in love with you, I'd like that back."

She just said I understand. I'll think about it. I thanked her for listening, she said you're welcome. I said have a good night, yaknow where to find me. She said you too, see ya.

About half an hour later she hops back on and tells me to check out a bunch of new pictures she posted on her facebook profile that they'd taken at work. Did I mention she looks drop dead gorgeous... man that hurts. We talked back and forth about random stuff with no discussion of us whatsoever. Then she said her friend just called and demanded she go out with her and a few guys they know. She also said her old roommate was in town and that she's gonna hook up with her too.

I'm not sure why she told me all this. It seemed as though she just wanted to tell me about things going on in her life, basically... it didn't come off as though she was trying to make me jealous or anything.

During one of these conversations, i can't remember when or which.. I think during our random bit between talking about "us", she mentioned something about her hair looking like crap with the humidity. Maybe I shouldn't have, but I said well, you're entitled to your opinion but I think you're gorgeous. She just saw "awww, stop...I do feel better about myself being tan". I told her that she'd about made me choke when she got out of the car at the house earlier today. She said its the tan, it does it for you. I said yaknow what.. it does!

Whether I should have shown this interest in her or expressed my physical attraction to her, I don't know. I also said something about one of the photos she posted from work being "smoldering"... because it was. She never tanned while we were married but she looks like an entirely different woman. i was always physically attracted to her throughout the entire time we were together, but with the tan... wow.... without words. It makes it even harder not to be with her.

Well, there's my long version of the long story. I dunno how to explain what happened without doing a play by play almost.

So, any suggestions on how I address these issues if she asks to know more about what I'd learned?

Those issues being her saying:

"i feel like i have to figure it out..i cant have someone else put thoughts in my head"

&

"well i am vunerable right now....so anything anyone says im more suspectible to be like ohh yeah that could be it"

&

"but I feel like I still dont know what it takes to make me happy"

&

"ive got a lot to think about...i need to seriously make myself happy before i can even attempt to make someone else happy"

That last one there is the biggest thing that concerns me. Any suggestions on how to respond to that?

Talking to her about these things obviously didn't throw her into wanting me back and to do everything I said. I had no expectations of anything crazy like that. These things I've noted that concern me are huge though. I'm trying to look at the bright side that this is major progress in that she now has a reason to think that is even possible that getting back together would be any different than how we were. The door has at least been opened to kicking around that thought and deciding whether or not she's ready for that.

Thanks again for your advice. It is invaluable.

Also, should I knock off the compliments... saying she's gorgeous, the picture is smoldering, etc? Should I not be showing any attraction at this point?

She wasn't kidding when she said this, you can take this to the bank Herb.

And she does need to make herself happy first, and she does need to come to some realizations on her own.

Have a little faith, she is not so stupid that she needs you to explain everything to her. She will come to these realizations on her own and if she doesn't your marriage doesn't have much of a chance. Just read what Welderboy has been going through for three years with his wife who doesn't know how to make herself happy, let alone anyone else.

Your job is to become the husband you should be. It wasn't all you Herb, she is out looking for the "one" when she is already married to you. Do you understand what this says right now?

It says she is in fantasy land, so don't take it all on yourself.

Keep doing what you are doing, it is working in making you a safe place for her.

This is only the first part of it, again this is Plan A and it is a two part plan.

Yes compliment her, you are creating attraction without any expectations. It's like at the beginning when you first start dating someone who doesn't really want to date you back.

Try to concentrate on yourself and your life right now, so you can gain some detachment. It is very important to obtain some detachment from her so your emotions don't take over.

I think you are doing good, just be careful that you don't stay in a state of obsession.

Good luck in the job hunt! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

What do I do if she comes back and says she needs to be on her own and keep dating other people? Do I just say I respect her decision as the best person to decide whats best for her, then reiterate that I would like to use what I've learned to reconnect and stay in love?

Do I break off all contact at that point?


Do I move to this separation immediately if she decides she needs to go find out how to make herself happy, stay separated and date other people? Or do I just go along with it without any disrespectful judgments, angry outbursts, etc. for a month or two, then completely cut ties if I see no change?


I believe I've done that..to make reconciling an attractive choice as best I can, anyway.


If she decides she needs to be on her own and figure out how to make herself happy while dating other guys, am I supposed to detach and move on as well? I have no interest in dating anyone else right now, but should I?

This whole having to figure out how to make herself happy before she can make anyone else happy thing is mind boggling to me. How can she go about doing this other than just living on her own and stumbling through life for a while? If she asks for suggestions on how to "find herself", what can I give her to help her with that? I obviously would like her to "find herself" as soon as possible. Should I even mention that I have no problem with her "finding herself" but it hurts me that she includes dating other people in that and that I'd like her not to date other people while she's "finding herself"? I believe if I did, she would say that if she restricts herself from being completely independent that she won't ever find herself. Is there any way around her dating other people? Separating I can deal with... giving her space I can deal with... her dating other people I feel that I can't go on every day wondering who she is doing what with. I just can't keep this up. I still don't sleep straight through the night anymore... I have dreams about her and what she's doing and wake up several times a night.

You said she will come to these realizations on her own... what realizations are you talking about? The realizations about there not being a magical person who makes them happy? I think she's already realized that just by talking to her last night. It may not have sunk in yet, but she knows that that possibility of that fantasy being incorrect is real. I don't believe that she's out there looking for the one anymore. Maybe she is and just wouldn't tell me. I think she's out there just for the thrill of it and to figure out what makes her happy and what doesn't. What realization is she going to come to if she already believes I could be the one for her and that she just needs to figure out how to make herself happy? What's going to show her what makes her happy?

What did you mean by do you understand what this says right now?

I'm a bit concerned that complimenting her appearance is creating expectations in her mind... like I'm trying to pursue her and putting pressure on her to respond in kind. I've never dated anyone who didn't really want to date me back, so this is all new to me =/ I feel like I could be pressuring her when everything previous to this has suggested not to pursue her. Was that suggestion not to pursue her only becacuse she wasn't talking to me at the time and now that we are talking its ok? Just want to clarify so that I know for sure.

Detachment sounds logical in that it would help me keep from going crazy, but its a lot easier said than done, as I'm sure you know. Making progress with her as we have makes me even more anxious to reconcile.

Another thing is it seems hard to buy the whole idea that she doesn't know what makes her happy.

She could go through the EN Questionnaire and rank exactly what was important to her in our marriage that did and didn't get met. I could probably guess a lot of how her list would look. If she knows those things and I know those things, I'm sure I could make her happy. In the same breath, I know what makes me happy... I know what my questionnaire would look like, so she'd know exactly what it takes to make me happy.

Why does she need to go figure out what makes her happy when she already knows? Should I show her the EN Questionnaire and have her see if she already knows? When she says (if, I guess) that she doesn't know what makes her happy, should I say "Completely up to you, but there's a questionnaire here that helps you go through and identify what exactly makes you happy... maybe it could help?"?

Also, how do I address the issue of her not wanting to just believe what someone else says because she's afraid she might believe something thats not true? If its a solution to her problem, why wouldn't she examine it and decide for herself? What if it could be real? Should I ask her that... "well, what if these solutions are real?"

Hi Herb,

I used to be a WW, i told my H flat out, its over, find someone else, get a new life. But i never asked for a divorce, my H stayed my friend during all this time, i rejected him over and over, he was always there for me reguardless. He told me he would always be my friend, etc.

Today i am fighting to win my husband back, because i woke up. It took a very long time for me to figure out, hey, what you want and what you need, you had all along.

At first i only saw the bad in him, and justified my EA with that. Over time when he showed me nothing but care for me, all those excuses that everything must have been bad, they couldnt hold together anymore and they just "poofed" away. Being her friend does not mean that it will stay like this, she will be forced to see that all wasnt as bad as she might have made it out to be in her head.

Keep up what you are doing, dont smother her, and dont do any relationship talk with her, you have told her what you wanted to tell her for some time now. She knows all of this now. Be her friend, compliment her, but not every time, otherwise she wont believe it anymore after a while <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. Keep being there for her i am pretty confident she will come around when she is "ready". She needs time, and if you choose to want this marriage and love her, then try being her friend and be there for her when she is ready.

But also be careful, dont get too overemotional, dont get too excited when someting positive happens, take things at a slow pace, dont expect anything or too much. Protect yourself as well during that process, it might take a long time for her to come around. It all depends on the person themselves.

Dont expect any changes to happen in days or weeks, you might see some improvements in a couple months, it might take longer. Use this time for yourself, i know you are very eager for her to come back, and to have patience is very hard. Enjoy the time that you do have with her (that helps me right now getting over it that my husband is not with me), instead of being sad about the fact that you are not living together as husband and wife. That way i have positive feelings instead of negative ones when i see my Husband.

If she is open to completing the EN worksheet, then yes I believe you should give them to her.

You do not date other people until you have done everything you can do to save this marriage, and until you know reasonably well that you are done with her. We have a responsibility to not drag other people into our mess Herb. And that she is willing to do this before she is divorced and has become a happy person on her own is extrememly immature and irresponsible of her. These are part of the realizations she needs to achieve.

If complimenting her is part of her EN's, if it feels good to do so then what is the problem in that? You can compliment someone in a way which is sincere and not giving the impression that you are fishing.

You have not been in Plan A for a reasonable amount of time yet. Harley recommends 3 to 6 months for men.

She is already dating, was involved in some kind of emotional relationship, maybe more, when you moved out. So to be concerned with staying in Plan A while she continues to date seems like an unfounded worry. She is already doing it and you are handling it.

What she does while you are in Plan A is IRRELEVANT...you still work your plan.

If she comes back and says she wants to date other people, separate, divorce...whatever, you just say "I'm sorry you feel that way" and continue right on with your Plan.

When you are ready to go to Plan B it will be because you can no longer take the pain, it is for your protection and so you still have some love left for her if she comes back, and you do it in such a way (with a letter) that she knows exactly what she needs to do to come back into the marriage, if she wants to. It may knock her off the fence, but it may not..it may be the end but it is not a closed door, it is a door which has a combinationt lock, that you have outlined the combination for clearly in your Plan B letter.

You are not near ready for Plan B.

Thank you both for all of the advice. I've read and re-read what you've said and will continue to think about it.

I'm still completely lost as to what exactly will happen that will make her realize what she wants?

Daggi, your situation is encouraging for me. Thank you for sharing it. Mine is slightly different in that I believe my wife already has a positive outlook on me. There is definitely no "everything must be bad" thought in her head. It is more "it would be good only if I knew what made me happy, so I should go find out what makes me happy" which more than likely includes dating other guys. I'm trying to understand what it is that she could experience that would teach her what makes her happy? Perhaps, as a former WW, you could enlighten me a bit?

I've "handled" her chasing other guys for about almost a month now but it still destroys me every single day. The closer she and I get and the more progress we make.. makes it even tougher to handle.

To be honest, 6 months of this doesn't just seem like it will be more than I can bear... I know it is. 3 months may even be too much, god forbid it be longer than 6 months...

There is some relief in knowing that the time that passes from this point on is actually making progress now that she knows how I feel and that things COULD be different if we were to get back together... that it hinges on her knowing what makes her happy. Before, even if she "found herself", she still had no reason to believe anything would be different for us.

When she comes and tells me that she feels like she needs to figure out what makes her happy before anything else...

should I ask her directly if she believes that includes dating other people?

should I tell her directly that I have no plans to date other people?

should I tell her directly that I have no plans to date other people because I want to work our marriage out?

Should I tell her that I believe she can figure out what makes her happy without dating other people? Should I tell her that I believe figuring out what makes her happy requires her not to date other people and lean on herself instead? I don't want to tell her what to do, but I would like her to know how I feel about her dating other people...

If she just tells me she needs to find herself and figure out how to make herself happy, she may not tell me without me asking if she intends to date other people... I'd be 99% sure that she will include dating other people in "figuring out what makes her happy", but she may not come right out and say it knowing that I want to reconcile. Thats why I ask if I should ask her directly...

I'm thinking something along the lines of:

Her: I just feel like I need to find myself and figure out what makes me happy before I can make anyone else happy.
Me: That makes a lot of sense and I completely agree with you that you need to figure out how to make yourself happy without needing someone else to make you happy. For me, I have no interest in dating while I feel that our marriage is something we could salvage and would want to salvage with these tools I've found, once you've had the time to figure out what makes you happy. It wouldn't be fair to me or to whoever I dated. You know better than I what is best for you and I'm not going to try to tell you what you should do. I can only control what I do and make myself a better me. I love the idea of you taking time to focus on yourself and figure out how to make yourself happy, not only because that would enable you to show me exactly how to make you happy if thats what you choose you want, but because I care about you more than I can express with words and want you to be happy. I'm more than happy to give you the space you need to do so. I want you to be successful in finding yourself so that you can be happy and perhaps we can be happy because of that. Regardless of what you choose is best for you, I will always be here for you and always want to be your friend.

<Edited... better?>

If she does ask for suggestions on how to make herself happy ,Any ideas on how I could present information to her that supports the idea that she not date anyone and be completely on her own? Anyone have any links to support material she could read and decide for herself if she believes it?

"I'm still completely lost as to what exactly will happen that will make her realize what she wants?"

Herb, consider this: SHE doesn't even know what will happen 2 help her realize what she wants. You're still trying 2 figure out what she's thinking and how you can manipulate that 2 suit your own desires. You'll be far more effective at "this" if you detach instead of trying 2 become more ingrained in her thought processes. They're hers. The lessons she's learning (if any) are hers 2 learn. Be concerned FIRST that she find what it takes 2 make her happy and put off worrying about patching up the marriage afterward.

"should I ask her directly if she believes that includes dating other people?"

No. No relationship talk (as I believe someone said above).

"should I tell her directly that I have no plans to date other people?"

Absolutely. This is TRUTH about YOU, and conveys your morality 2 her without undue pressure.

"should I tell her directly that I have no plans to date other people because I want to work our marriage out?"

I think this is fine.

"Should I tell her that I believe she can figure out what makes her happy without dating other people?"

No. Painful as it is 2 imagine what she might be doing outside your marriage, this is something she needs 2 learn on her own. If she asks for help with this, suggest she get it from an unbiased professional, though. NOT a friend - particularly a male friend.

"Should I tell her that I believe figuring out what makes her happy requires her not to date other people and lean on herself instead?"

Definitely not. This falls under the category of educating the WS. It never works.

"I don't want to tell her what to do, but I would like her to know how I feel about her dating other people..."

By telling her that you have no intentions 2 date other women because you beleive you can save your marriage - you're sending her this message in the best way possible: Living your ethics/morality by example.



...I haven't read all your posts (they're LONG and NUMEROUS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />), but: Are you divorced? Are you legally seperated? If neither, and your W has any sense of morality, her own conscience will have more of an impact on what she does than any list of questions you might pose 2 her could.

best,
-ol' 2long

2long,

Thank you for your advice. I believe you're right about not telling her anything about finding herself requiring not dating other people. She's going to have to learn this on her own and that scares me because of how long it could take, if it even ever happens. I'm willing to do whatever it takes to save our marriage, but obviously, at some point, I am going to have to move on whether I like it or not.

I'll keep in mind not to try to educate her unless she asks for suggestions. I've edited my previous post on how to handle the conversation when it happens.

As far as our status, we are still married legally, but completely split up. Until yesterday when we had our long talk and finally got everything out, she was under the impression that we would split up and, after a while, see how we felt. We're married legally but (she thinks or thought before yesterday's conversation) that we both have free reign to date other people and that its very possible we'll never get back together. She still feels as though she has free reign to date other people, because she does... I can't stop her, but at least now she knows that that is not what I want AND she now knows that it is possible that we could work things out. She's married legally but her conscience is free and clear to date other people (even if she knows I want to work things out) because she sees it as the only way to learn what makes her happy.

Sorry again for the long posts. I'm a writer at heart and type entirely too quickly.

Thanks again for your advice. It is very helpful.

Herb:

no problem about the posts. I just spend less time on here than I used 2, and so I'm not all that aware of peoples' details.

"She's going to have to learn this on her own and that scares me because of how long it could take, if it even ever happens."

Believe me when I say that I know exactly how frustrating this is. My W is still withdrawing from a 12-yr LTA that started 15 years ago and hasn't truly been "shut down" 2 my satisfaction even yet. D-day for me was almost 4.5 years ago. Even a year ago, I couldn't imagine keeping this up. But the truth is that patience was one of the most important lessons for me 2 learn. That and detaching while still remaining loving. Hard lessons, but they've helped me 2 grow considerably as an individual.

"I'm willing to do whatever it takes to save our marriage, but obviously, at some point, I am going to have to move on whether I like it or not."

Have 2? Why? What's the urgency? While it is true that sooner or later you may decide that your W's choices are incompatible with your own goals or belief system such that you may choose 2 divorce, I think that's pretty far off in the fu2re still. And why dwell on maybes?

Are you in counselling? If not (or even if so), consider coaching with either Steve Harley or Jennifer Chalmers. From some of the things your W has said, as relayed in your posts above, I would think she might be receptive 2 this. Don't suggest this 2 your W, however, but start coaching with one of the Harleys and let THEM help you encourage your W 2 join in.


This is a PROCESS, Herb. And it's true, the reward is in the journey.
-ol' 2long

Unfortunately, no... not in counseling as I simply cannot afford it. I would love to get some coaching from either one. I think that they definitely could help me encourage her to join. I also think that she has a good chance of being receptive to it, if only I could afford it.

My income is extremely limited right now (just pays my expenses) while I try to get my new business off the ground. This new business is something I've wanted to do for a while but couldn't do because I had to have a paycheck past what my expenses were. It has a very, very good chance of being successful and making good money, but it will take a couple of months to make a profit.

As I mentioned earlier in this post, this new career in flipping houses isn't a steady paycheck which is a major LB for her. I'm not sure what to do about it, as my only other option is to search for another graphics job that I'm unhappy at, but provides a steady paycheck, although she would still make more than I do, which may or may not be an issue in her head. The steady paycheck is definitely an issue for her, making more than I do may not be as long as the bills are being paid and she has extra money to go shopping.

If, in two or three months, I've already made nearly a year's worth of graphics salary, I have a feeling the steady paycheck issue may no longer be a LB for her. I may even mention this to her while she and I are on the topic of giving her time and space. I may tell her that I would also like some time to work on being able to meet her top emotional need of financial security and that I am going to continue burying myself in getting this business off the ground while she is working on finding herself.

I feel as though I may be getting ahead of myself a little here. I'm not even sure that she's interested in me at all anymore. If I start telling her all of these things I'm going to be doing to meet her needs... and she's not sure she even wants me back once she does figure out what makes her happy, that might push her away. She's over there not knowing what she wants (me or something else) and I'm over here acting as though she definitely wants me. Or.. she may be somewhat interested again with this new information I gave her yesterday that gave a possibility for a future for us... I have no idea. Her reaction to the information and wanting to know more about it would lead me to believe she might be interested. Not sure how to handle that, since I still need to meet her needs just in case. Gotta try not to be overbearing I guess.

Now you're on the right track.

Don't tell her all the things you plan 2 do 2 meet her ENs - just do those things. You don't want 2 set unrealistic goalposts and find you can't meet them or maybe find out that's not what you wanted after all.

Just be.

-ol' 2long