inadaze

thanks for sharing

you have some great information

Inadaze makes a great point that I have also been thinking...

The other part of this is that the WS begins to ALLOW..someone else other than their wife/husband to meet ENs that are ONLY supposed to be met exclusively in a marriage...

This has to do with WEAKNESSES..VULNERABILITIES..and all sorts of things...

Once these particular ENs begin to be met with another person..YOU FALL IN LOVE...according to this theory....

It does not necessarily have to do with BAD CHARARACTER..

It also has to do with LOOSE BOUNDARIES...

It's like you cross over a line that was meant to be blocked and once you keep crossing over that line you are caught..

I read somewhere for example that if you begin to smoke more than 4 cigarettes/day that you are addicted....

There might be a certain no. of phone calls to a person of the opposite sex..there might be certain topics of conversation with someone of the opposite sex...

It's essential to maintain boundaries..that you do not allow yourself to cross over...

In a WEAK MOMENT or a VULNERABLE TIME in your life..during some sort of crisis...you might be LESS CAREFUL about this...especially if their are VULTURES or EVIL FORCES swarming around...

But he did it anyway... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

No disrespect Mimi, but why did your husband do what "he knew..was wrong"?

Because he is human and makes mistakes...he was tempted like Adam in the garden of Eden...

Don't you do anything wrong, Ron? I'm sure you are not a Saint. I surely am not...

I took cookies from the cookie jar..

Eventually, he became addicted to her.

He is very sorry about what he has done.

My H is WONDERFUL NOW..He definitely HAS CHARACTER and MORALS...

I've been meaning to respond to this for a couple of days now...hope I haven't lost the moment...



This is a very good question to ask. If we were talking about EN theory as a stand-alone, you'd be precisely correct. But Harley doesn't. EN theory must be taken in the context of other martial behavior theories. In past discussions, we've note that having an affair really requires four things: 1) Unmet ENs render the WS vulnerable, 2) Marital behavior patterns allow for the development and maintenance of an EMR, 3) An opportunity in the form of a willing affair partner and 4) An emotional shift or rift in the WS that results in adjustment of values to rationalize an affair.

So, in the case of what you have postualted above, with an ill or invalid spouse, it's likely one could meet conditions 1 and 2, rendering them extremely vulnerable to an affair.

In fact, affairs do happen often in those situations.

I believe a few of us DID mention this.

Ron, When this is brought up here, it's usually not in the context of assigning blame. The blame for the affair always lies with the WS. I believe a good number of BSs fear that if they acknowledge that they didn't do a good job meeting their spouses' needs, it means that THEY are to blame.

Not true!

When failure to address EN's is brought up in Plan A and in Recovery, the BS is encouraged to address them to rebuild the relationship AND to reduce the probability of future infidelity. Most BSs, like mimi, find that there are some things that they could be doing better. Her marriage is stronger for it. Do you think it would have been better if she had refused to reflect on her behavior because, surely, that didn't cause the affair? I don't think so.

I think it would be pretty easy to draw a correlation between people who were emotionally unfulfilled people and infidelity. Hard cause and effect? No. Increased probability? Absolutely.

Toss in three other factors (see my above post) and, viola, you have an affair.

Also, I take issue with those who think human beings are psychologically static. Human beings are DYNAMIC creatures. Our value systems vary wildly pending circumstances and moods. NO ONE is the same person they were 5 minutes ago. People are constantly changing. THIS is the ONLY thing you can be absolutely sure of.

To imply a person who has an affair is somehow fundamentally broken denies that person the power to change it. I had a lot of people try to convince my wife that I was of low character and would never change (once a cheater, always a cheater). If I had bought into their thinking, I would've given up immediately. There would be NO point in this forum or ANY OTHER LIKE IT. Infidelity should mean INSTANT divorce.

The same thinking applies to any other misbehavior. Why should we let crimanls of ANY sort out fo prison. Won't they simply do it again? Nope...lock them up for life. Get a speeding ticket? Impound your car and pull your license...it's in your nature isn't it? Speeders are of low moral fiber, aren't they?

Low

Very well said Low.



I love this. To me it is the same as labeling people (huge disagreement on this board re: labeling).

Who are they (labels) really serving? The person who gets the label...or the person issuing it?

We can help impower people to change? Wow what a concept! What a wonderful, wonderful concept.

Low,

Thanks. You say so eloquently what I want to say about this and/or have been trying to say about this issue.

What you said here is key:



Devastated, I discovered that my H was having an Affair and he was "in love" with the OW...giving up everything for a life with her. YUCK...

This was a SINKING SHIP..

MB was a LIFE RAFT..

Not sure where I first got the notion..the book SAA..this forum..Steve Harley..or all three... I decided that if I was able to demonstrate my ability to meet the primary ENs in a romantic relationship my H had a good chance of falling in love with me again..

At that point, I was not focusing on the WHYs of his A as much as developing A PLAN to bring an END to it..in whatever way that I could...

This is a PLAN that I BELIEVED IN..this is a PLAN that I thought would work for ME...

It is A PLAN that continues to work very effectively for US...

I did a lot of this on FAITH...

Then I went back and did much of the analysis..

"Because he is human and makes mistakes...he was tempted like Adam in the garden of Eden..."

Ah..."the devil made me (him) do it"... Made Flip Wilson famous. As I mentioned above, that's one of the scenarios to which I do not subscribe. That having been said, I am ABSOLUTELY certain that satan is the tempter. But he CAN NOT make us do anything. We give in to temptations by our own choosing, and not at satan's command. While we may blame our yielding to temptation on whoever (or whatever) we want, I believe both of us know that it's a conscious choice. My quest is to understand what weakness allows some to yeld to temptation and others to turn their back.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts Mimi.

"Ron, When this is brought up here, it's usually not in the context of assigning blame. The blame for the affair always lies with the WS. - LOW, that's exactly what I said to Slammed1 on the previous page in response to her query...[/b]
"what I could have done any differently?"[/i]

As I stated there, all too frequently the assertion is made that the BS could have done something to have prevented the infidelity.

Your "requires four things" is interesting. Are you able to point me to any discussion regarding this...either here at MB or elsewhere?


Did no one read what I wrote...[i]"Sammed1, there is NOTHING you could have done to prevent your husband from cheating. Either he has character and morals and the necessary faculties to distinguish right from wrong, or he doesn't. That's NOT to say that these can never be developed, only that at that point in time, when he "dropped trou" and went for it, he did not. ...NO implication of anyone's inability to change. As a matter of fact...quite the opposite! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Good people, I'm not in recovery...I have nothing to recover, and I have no desire to be quarrelsome or demean anyone. I simply wish to gain an understanding of WHY.

Yeah well I met his needs for 30 years, and he still cheated because he said he wanted to PARTY! Well party he did.

Hey, Ron...I'll help ya out...

A statistic for your WHY...

Permissions. I gave myself permission to have A's, verbally abuse, live disrespectfully...how can that have been in my moral compass?

Same way I believe we all get there...entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. Doesn't look, taste or feel immoral to us...we're justified. And yes, we use ENs as our fuel...for our whole lives...I'm being hurt and I look outside myself for where it is coming from...just like I look outside for love and find out where it is coming from...

Feeding ourselves from the outside in, gives us permission to destroy. Righteously.

Morals aren't about being happy...they are about living well. A lot of us FWS were ill-informed, chose to believe the former. If we didn't steal, murder, abandon, physically abuse, cheat on our taxes, rape or pillage...then we were moral and deserved to be happy. We had no idea we weren't living true.

I had the necessary faculties to distinguish right from wrong...I had no independent code to live by, only react to...all that others did to me. Not what I did. I was the helpless one, the one ridden over...paving the way for others. Terrible perspective...feels moral, saintly even.

I had no idea you could choose your perspective, your beliefs...not recreate yourself, as I had been doing for years...rather, come to know and understand why I made the choices I did, and had not given myself permission to make my own code.

Now I'm moral and I feel no differently on the inside. I know I will not choose to cheat, abuse or disrespect. I know my power and watch my permissions, minding they come from within me, are within my control, as is my life.

That is what tempted Adam and Eve in the garden...choosing a harmful perspective, humans giving themselves permissions for justification, and God responding...with respectful choice, as he did in our design.

We sin against ourselves everyday that we do not recognize the apple as choice...God's respect for his creation. We do not stay aware we choose our perspective, our beliefs which then give us our feelings...or that we can choose our thoughts.

I believe this is the antidote to failing to meet ENs causes A's...get that there is no EN in entitlement fueled by resentment and lack of respect. Not there. Not about the spouse. About perspective. That fog. Real pain coming from within, seen as if it is coming at them.

Why are meeting ENs a key part of preventing A's? Because marriage is where you can work out who you are, how you operate, safely side by side, with someone else who is working out who they are, how they operate...being loved and accepted, anyway.

Takes O&H, respect, being safe for yourself and your spouse; staying intimate despite your fears; staying aware; and choosing your perspective. And owning all your choices.

LA

Ron - So sorry to hear that you are not in recovery. Even though I have not been able to save my marriage, I still consider myself in recovery. I feel like I have a lot to recover - my self-esteem, my way of life, my future. Hope that you will soon be in recovery too.

LA,

Much...much food for thought in your post. These perspectives I find useful...

Thank you

Did you find it funny that I said there was no EN in entitlement...

I do, now.


LOL

Yeah...food for thought.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Apologies Loworbit if my post left you wondering as to what I was on about.

Sometimes I wonder myself.

Though not sure Ron, as to why you would not be able to place EN's in Maslow's Hierarachy (Love and Beloningness). Seems to me as if its the obvious spot..acceptance, affiliation, connectedness and affection.

If we look at Glasser's 4...EN's fit right in there to.

Hey when we add the Construct Theory...no wonder it all comes tumbling down when adultery strikes.

Max.

Hi Believer,

Funny you should ask about "recovery". I felt (feel) it necessary to state that since SOME viewers of this particular thread, if they bother to read what's written FULLY (which I doubt they have), have chosen to make their opinions of my "questions" and "questioning" rather clear...I should keep my opinions and challenges to myself. SOME thought it devious that I was "challenging" what I perceive to be the predominate dogma, when I wasn't even in recovery. Hence my comment earlier re. responding to everyone's e-mail. So NO I'm not recovering my marriage...as you know for an obvious reason.

Personal recovery, as you describe, hmmmm...honestly NO. That would suggest the "fixing" or "healing" of myself. I've been eviscerated, chewed upon, spit out, and left to rot by all this. All I hope for each day is, with God's grace, to survive. I've put down the recovery books and put off all thoughts of fixing what may be un-fixable. I'm just trying to survive.

Yes, the $h!t sandwich and the guilt trip have left a bad taste in my mouth.

Ron, None of my responses to you was intended to imply any personal motive on your part. For the record, I am NOT in recovery either...I am divorcing after five years of attempted recovery. But my failure is not an indictment of Harley's theories.

You ask excellent questions that allow us to answer what many are thinking but have trouble asking and answering for themselves. We are discussiing one of the most difficult issues a BS has to face. It's simple enough to SAY that the WS is wholly responsible for their affair, but many take a lot longer to become convinced in their heart of that truth. Until then, the BS fears that, in some way, maybe they did cause it, so they fear acknowledging that. I've seen it over and over here.

The question about emotional needs being a valid reason doesn't sprout from curiosity...it's driven by a need to be re-assured that the affair wasn't your fault...becasue you're not convinced yet. When you are, you'll be able to look at your behavior in the marriage in a more objective manner.

Here's an example fo what I'm talking about. aptiva said that she "met all of her husbands needs" but he still left. How does she know this? Did they do an EN survey? I think often, thinking we're meeting our spouses needs is a far cry from KNOWING our spouses needs. So I think it defeatist to assume that you KNOW this...when it's very possible you don't.

During my attempt at recovery, when we did the EN surveys, I found out that the need for an attractive spouse was VERY high on my wife's list...I NEVER KNEW THIS. As a result, I paid extra close attention to body maintenance and style. I learned things that I never imagined I would to try an meet this need. Obviously, this didn't prevent our marriage from collapsing, so that must mean EN theory is wrong...right? I don't think so.

The four things that I mentioned in my previous post are my own conclusions, backed up by my own search for why I did what I did...and analysis of why I won't do it again. It's reinforced by the reason folks here give for their marriage problems; Major life change, emotional neglect, lots of free time and independence, etc. All of these things play into the PROBABILITY of infidelity.

So, I'll retract my conclusions as global, and simply restate them as applicable to me:
1) Emotional Needs - there were several areas where I needed more from my wife. I expressed those requests, but the light never came on for her. So we live for several years in a distant relationship. She remembers it differently.
2) I took a new position that allowed great schedule flexibility. I could always say "I was at work"
3) My ex-OW was also having marital problems and was someone I worked closely with and had always been attracted to. I knew her for 10 years before the affair. People joked that she was my "second wife" because he H was so uninvolved with her.
4) Emotional shift - I experienced a life event that resulted in a severe depression and caused me to abandon my existing value system since I believed I had been betrayed by it.

So, I had all four - unmet ENs, opportunity, a willing partner, and an emotional/value shift.

Unmet needs alone didn't precipitate the affair. Even when combined with a willing partner (ex-OW was around for years), there was no affair. But combined with the falure of my value system and the flexible schedule, everything clicked like clockwork.

In a similar way, people who have depression or value shifts increase the risk of infidelity, but without a marital environment that allows for an undetected relationship, it wouldn't happen.

So, my assertion (and Harley's) all along has been that even in a marriage where ENs are met, if other, more practical policies are not in place, the marriage is at risk.

Let me think of an analogy...mmm...what about riding a motorcycle without a helmet. It's FUN and the rider is HAPPY and FULFILLED. But is that HEALTHY? Nope...he is at risk. I think marriages are similar...failure to institute and establish agreements for accountability (without controlling) is a huge marital mistake.

If my wife and I had been living by Harley's rules BEFORE my A, I don't think my A would have EVER gotten close to happening.

So, in closing, I believe the BS who assumes they knew what their spouses ENs are/were and assumed they were meeting them, as result, won't evaluate their own behavior is doing a great disservice to themselves.

You can NEVER assume you know what your spouses ENs are...thet's why it's important to KEEP ASKING and be attentive. Sometimes, even spouses struggle to put them into words...that's why the EN questionnaire is so valuable.

Low

"I've put down the recovery books and put off all thoughts of fixing what may be un-fixable."

You know Ron53...that is one of the bestest things I have heard in weeks.

Most things we come across are un-fix-able. Life is such a B.Or at least it can be.

Lets just manage( or learn to) them...those in-un-fix-able things.

Max

wow,
What is it around here with 'The Wounded Healer'

"So, in closing, I believe the BS who assumes they knew what their spouses ENs are/were and assumed they were meeting them, as result, won't evaluate their own behavior is doing a great disservice to themselves."

"COU___OFFF"


Max