Oops, you asked AGG...?
(only my words are from mine <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

It's from Will Our Love Last?, one of the best compatibility assessment books I read.

AGG

If you go back to your earlier posts where counting all those 'annoyances'... could you really say that...

OK, so here is where I am and how I got there.

As you might recall, G and I have been spending lots of time together over the past few months, with me noticing some of her strange and annoying (at least to me) habits. Primarily, it was that on a typical weekend day, she sleeps in until about 10 or 11, and then needs 2 hours to get ready, not a minute less. I don’t mean to get ready for theater or opera, I mean ready enough to walk out the bedroom door. Don’t ask me why it takes her 2 hours, I asked her that and did not get a better answer that “this is my routine”. So, in essence, I found myself “alone” for 3-4 hours at the outset of every day.

Now, to some extent, I tried to argue (and still do) that I could occupy myself during those few hours. Theoretically, I can do some project or chores, or go for walk, or whatever. And besides, G said that she is perfectly happy to get up earlier when there was something “going on”, such as a kid’s baseball game, or a trip to Disneyland, or some other morning “event”. And that seemed like a potentially workable compromise.

But, from the times of those discussions, we hardly had any normal times together – we seemed to be going on vacations a lot, and so we found ourselves out of the normal day to day routines. And on these vacations, I found myself feeling drained and trapped. I would get up at about 9 (late for me) and be ready by 9:15, only to sit there in the hotel room until 12, waiting for G to get going. I tried to read a book, or look out the window, but it got old. And because I was not at home, I really could not do anything “constructive”, like I typically try to do. Now, I think that I should have, and could have done something other than sit around – I could have simply started out on my own and gone for a walk, or breakfast, or whatever, and not sat around. Realistically, I think this would have to be my approach with G – I won’t harass her to get up and get ready early, but I will need to find a way for myself to simply go about my life in the mornings, alone. My mindset is/was that I want a partner who would share the day with me, not just the afternoons/evening, but I suppose I can make some accommodations there, I don’t know that this is a real boundary or a dealbreaker.

The other annoyance I’ve had is G’s clutter and apparent inability to deal with it. Her place is pretty cluttered with thousands of magazines, catalogs, etc. We talked about cleaning it up, and how it would be if we lived together, and came up with general “solutions”. But, every time I went over to her place, I saw the clutter be the same, and when we spent a couple of weekends apart (I took my kids on a spring break vacation), I saw that she spent those weekends just “relaxing” (e.g watching TV) instead of doing anything to unload the clutter.

Anyway, this low energy level in her really bothered me. I am the kind of guy who can get up at 7 or 8, read the paper, have breakfast, clean and organize my house, do some car maintenance if needed, pay the bills, do laundry, go grocery shopping, do a project on the house, and get everything all cleaned up and organized again, all in time to have dinner and maybe go see a movie. In contrast, I think G’s typical day is to get up by 11, get going by 1, browse catalogs for a couple of hours, watch TV for a few hours, relax some more, go out to eat and see a movie, and come home. So you can see the huge differences there. I think I’ll resent a partner who basically sits around most of the day while I go about doing all the chores associated with running a household. Now, G has somehow managed to create a chore-less lifestyle for herself, and I certainly don’t expect a partner to be out there with me spinning wrenches or pounding nails. But I kept having this feeling that I would want her to participate in at least some capacity in my life, and she seemed to just mope around instead. I don’t know, maybe I just need to rethink my ENs, I never thought I valued DS all that highly.

Throughout all this, the fact never changed than when we were together, things were absolutely great. We loved chatting and laughing, we were so much on the same wavelength in how we saw things, we just loved being together. And so this created a dichotomy that I am still trying to resolve – when we are together, things are great. When we are “apart”, especially with me being active and G sleeping or getting ready or “relaxing”, I get resentful. I know, it is my issue that I am getting resentful, but I need to figure out if I am getting resentful because she is not meeting some key EN, or because I am just too rigid.

In the midst of all this pondering, the baby issue came up. At first, it looked like she was ready to break up over it. She said she always wanted a child, and thought we’d have one, and now she’s crushed. And I replied that I thought that everyone who wanted to have a child should have one, because it is the greatest blessing, and I certainly did not want to stand in the way of that. Of course deep down inside, I also found myself resentful that she spent all her 20’s and 30’s not having kids (for good reasons, I am sure), and now that she was near 40 it suddenly became clear that I am probably close to being her last hope for a baby. I don’t like that burden, but that’s a whole separate topic of fertility in late 30’s and beyond, and we already discussed it here.

By the next day, she said that she has given it some more thought, and realistically was not even sure if she can even have a child at this point of her life, and that she wanted to give it some more thought. But, during that chat, she also brought up some concerns and resentments that showed me that she was unhappy about some things as well. She felt that she would be making a big sacrifice in having to move to my home if we got married, because she would have an awful commute to her work (which is true). So she felt strongly that if she made that sacrifice for the next 10 years, that I should do something for her in return. So we ended up discussing POJA for quite a while, where I tried to explain my view that I did not believe in sacrifices, because they built resentment, and instead wanted to come up with solutions that both partners were happy with. She seemed to like that concept.

Still, between the baby chat and the “sacrifice” chat, I started feeling that we are not suited for each other. Moreover, out of sheer curiosity, I kept trying to understand how someone can be wired the way she was, with the strange sleep and getting ready routines, clutter, etc. I finally concluded (at least in my own judgemental mind) that she probably has an OCD tendency, and much info I read on it describes her to a T. I don’t really know that it’s important for me to “diagnose” her, but it helped me understand things. It’s not that she is lazy, it is how she is wired. Interestingly, I found that this helped me cope better with her habits. I no longer viewed her as lazy or lethargic, but as someone who is simply different from me and always will be.

So yesterday I went up to share all of these concerns with her.

It was quite the chat, we talked for 6 hours straight. She clearly felt hurt that I was not able to accept her “as is” regarding the sleeping and getting ready habits. But, after I said that I did not plan or want to change her in that regard, but rather wanted to brainstorm solutions that would make us both happy, she seemed to be much more enthusiastic about it. Again, I know that if it were just the sleep issue, I’d be OK with it, so I did not want to make that into a hill to die on.

So then we broached the activity level issue, and she told me something I found interesting. She said that with all our back and forth driving across town (we see each other 5 nights a week), she feels completely exhausted and unsettled. And when she said that, it dawned on me that I feel the same way. It is very draining, and I am projecting part of that exhaustion onto her, instead of onto the situation. So, at the risk of ignoring the clear fact that she has less energy than me, I think this may explain a part of why things feel so unsettled and cluttered. I don’t really know how to solve this; I am leaning towards maybe giving ourselves one or two more free nights a week, to give us a chance to catch up on our own individual chores. No, I don’t expect her to become a Martha Stewart with that free time; but, I think that if I had my life under control with those two extra evenings, I’d feel less unsettled and annoyed. I dunno.

Anyway, the bottom line is that all the issues are now on the table. She said she still wants/needs to ponder the baby issue, and I understand that totally. I don’t feel the burning need to break up with her tomorrow or the next week, even though I don’t plan to drag this out into years. But, I do enjoy her company so much, that I want to see if by making a combination of changes in behavior and perhaps some changes in how I perceive things, that maybe, just maybe, we can still find a happy medium.

I guess this means we are smack ion the middle of the Negotiation Phase, wondering if we can get to Acceptance. Which is all fine, it is part of the process, as long as no one overlooks dealbreakers, which I certainly am not planning to do. The biggest risk I see is that I spend more time in Negotiation than need be; I guess it is a risk I am willing to take for now.

So, that is where things are. I probably missed some things in my rush to get this out, and if so, I’ll add them later, but I think this is the gist of it.

Thoughts?

AGG

Well, I'm just getting caught up on this thread. I haven't posted in a while, but I have been lurking quite a bit. I'm sorry you're having a difficult time, AGG, but glad to see you working through this so thoroughly.

THe thoughts that come to my mind remind my of my struggle with the BF, J, I dated for 2 and 1/2 yrs. We are still friends. I finally came to the conclusion to break up with him "for good" because of the constant stress I was feeling in some of the similar descriptions you give about G. His life is sooo unorganized. His kids are disrespectful and unorganized. We were very compatible in our conversation, thoughts, and sexually. We loved being together, doing the same things, similar goals thoughts, etc. But his house was a wreck, no schedule, etc. When I would call him on Saturday mornings at 9-10 am, or even noon, he would still be asleep. Drove me crazy. Even into the afternoons. He would be up all night some nights because of his kids keeping him up. (2 teenagers)

It was a hard decision, and I still question it, to end things, because of all the compatibility. But some of the logical compatibility issues were in the way. Kids, scheduling, clutter, boundaries, etc. A couple of months ago, wiffty posted about a more casual dating arrangement, and I really started considering this type of dating with J, so that he could run his life with his kids WITHOUT me being so much involved, and let ME have my quiet "routine", and then later down the road we can work on blending our lives more. I discussed this with J, and even though we haven't decided to start "dating", we have been spending more time together, talking, lunches, etc., and I can't seem to find the attraction that I once felt. Now that I'm giving myself permission to let those feelings return, they won't.

I'm not sure what I'm telling you. Perhaps you and G could back off the intensity, or, separate yourselves just a bit so that she can have her routines, and you can have yours, and continue dating. I know I know... some people say "why prolong something you KNOW won't work"... but you seem to think there is a chance here, and you obviously both enjoy being around each other... and... what's the hurry of running off? Is there someone else around the corner you've GOT to check out? I don't think you're that type.... the type that wants to hurry up and find someone better.

So, that's an option... to keep your space and continue dating for a bit... focusing on the positives in each other. Perhaps it will become clearer to you later down the road. I broke up with J one time, and we got back together within a month. 8 months later I was SURE it was wrong, and I needed to break up completely.

hugs,
Faith1

AGG~~

I can certainly see validation for your thoughts and why you were where at the breaking point with your relationship.

I think it's fair to make the changes you have suggested and see if the compromises can be made and both feel happier with them. I think that's very wise given that fact that you seem to Love the majority of G's make-up.

Now, the time thing........that would be a tuff one.
I'm a woman, and I would like a for sure hour, but I'm usually up on the weekend by 8. I can't comprehend sleeping until 11 and hanging out until 1-2 getting ready.
If I had to wait for someone all that time, darn right I would be resentful.
I can see a lazy weekend "together" being that way, but as an every weekend occurence? I can't imagine.
I think you're entitled to that aggravation concerning the time issue, I give you that. Same with the clutter, again, I couldn't handle it.

To G's defense, I can imagine being whipped from the commute
and being lazy to some extent, but not for a whole day though.
Concerning the baby issue, I agree with you also. I don't think anyone should be denied having a child if they desire one. A child is such a precious gift. She really needs to think long and hard on that one to never regret the decision she makes.

I wish you both well and hope that agreements can be made.
For what it's worth, from what you have told us, I don't think you're out of line.


Good Luck!
Karona

Faith,

Thank you so much for your thoughts, and for sharing your experiences with J. Wow, I didn't realize how closely they resembled mine with G. I really appreciate your inputs.


This is exactly what I am pondering. I do enjoy her company immensely, but I feel that perhaps to a large extent, it is because we are spending so much of our time together, driving all over town, that we feel stressed or unsettled. That perhaps if we backed off a bit and maintained some more semblance of our individual selves, that we would be able to date and learn about each other without feeling overwhelmed. I dunno. I never dated anyone whom I saw more often than 2-3 times a week, so maybe this super-intense relationship is part of the problem.

So in a sense I agree - why not just keep seeing each other and seeing how it plays out? I don't want to make the mistake of dating even if it's clear that the match is not there - but I am just not sure that I am at that point. Or am I just rationalizing? I don't know. I like to think that I am in the Uncertainty/Negotation phase, and all the books say to not give up the ship at this point, as Acceptance can still be reached. So, that is what I am hoping.

Really, there is no rush or hurry, IMO. It's not like we don't have a great time together, or that we play games or manipulate each other, or that in general I don't look forward to seeing her - I always do! So I can see myself being happy continuing to see her, even if at the present I am somewhat pessimistic - but trying to be open minded.

Perhaps the only "pressure" is my self-imposed concern that I would hate for her to lose her chance to have a child and then to lose me on top of that, so I feel that I need to decide fairly quickly if I don't want her. But I think that is placing an unfair burden onto myself, instead of letting it be her question to ponder. I am not hiding anything from her, and she is a grown woman who can make her own choices and decisions - I don't want or need to obsess over that. I guess the other thing is that I know she wants to (eventually) be married, not just go on dating for years. So, wiftty's suggestion of just dating without a marriage goal would not apply here - we both are "spouse shopping", and while it may take time to decide on whether to make the purchase or not, neither of us is in the rental mode.

Anyway, having said all that, Faith, I think that this is exactly my mindset as of today. I want to back off on the intensity a bit, and get to know her more, and see what happens.


Nope, no worries there. I am so connected with G, I don't even notice other women, much less look around the corners. Just the thought of going back to stare at the online profiles made me want to barf recently, I am definitely a "one at a time" dater.

AGG

Hi AGG,

We don't know each other, but I must confess that I've been hap-hazardously following your story...with much intersest I might add.

I have to tell you, tho, that when you mentioned the baby issue has not yet been resolved and you two are continuing to have sex....while, I shudder! A woman close to 40, who still is having thoughts of being a mother, who has a man she is dating that *may be her last shot* speaks volumes to me...actually shouts to me....stop having sex until this is resolved.

I'm not suggesting by any means that G would pull something or try to trap you, but we all know that even the best of protection isn't always 100%. Please, just be careful.

This, along with the other issues would cause me to take a long step back. I realize you click in many areas, and I think that is terrific. However, just from what you've written here today, I see much hesitation in her to make any earth shattering moves to make this relationship just right. (I'm also not suggesting that you don't have issues of your own...I'm sure you do! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'd see if the clutter thing works itself out (and I'm glad your realize that it's much deeper than the **stuff**). I'd also like to see her give you a legitimate reason for taking so long to ready herself in the morning. It's my routine is poppycock to me....have her dig a little deeper and find the real answer.

((AGG)) This is a tough one. Like everyone else, I'll be waiting the the wings to see how this plays out.

God Bless

I know, I totally understand that she is well out of the "norm" in these two ways. I know it's not me that's out of norm <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. And I am trying to see if I can learn to accept her. She keeps saying, and I understand her thoughts, that she "just wants to be accepted, and not changed". I think from reading what I did about OCD, she can't change easily, and my nagging won't help. So I am trying to see if I can change my outlooks, rather than change her - at least for the sleep and time issue.

For the clutter, that would definitely be a boundary for me. I have a big enough house to store most anything, but it has to be out of sight. I don't want piles all over the place, like her place is now. She knows that, and she seems OK with that. Sigh. I know there are no guarantees, but I am hoping that we could keep clutter under control.


Yeah, it's that very last point I am really worried about. I never ever want to be thought of as having denied someone the chance to have children. I think that G has done most of her own "denying" for the past 15-20 years by not having kids then, so I don't want to end up being the one holding the bag. And I don't want to ever hear in any future argument or discussion the words "oh yeah? Well I gave up having children for you, so the least you can do for me is blah blah". She said she never secondguesses her decisions, but "never" is a very long time.

Thanks for the support, Karona!

AGG

Actually, we have <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />.


I know, and the last thing I want is an "oops" - I would certainly be wondering if it was truly an "oops" or a ploy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. I am seriously contemplating a vasectomy, though certainly not on a spur of the moment.


True, but who wants to make earth shattering changes? Don't we all want to be more or less accepted as-is?


I keep telling her to tell me what she would like me to change, and she says she likes me just the way I am. Which makes it that much more difficult for me to ask her to change this, that, and the other - makes me feel selfish and controlling <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.


Well, I think it's the OCD. Her getting ready routine is very rigid, and like most OCD tasks, she doesn't know how to change it, because it "won't be right". I believe that is how she is wired. It would be nice for that to change, but I doubt it would. Clutter seems to be another byproduct of OCD. Again, this is all my own "diagnosis", and I feel a bit uneasy about "diagnosing" my GF, but I think it helps me accept her instead of being annoyed at her "laziness".

But, when all is said and done, I am far from sure that I will be able to accept her as she is, with her being "gone" for half the day, and then being somewhat low-energy and methodical for the other half, without really jumping in there and contributing to running the household. Again, that is the big transition from dating to having a life together.

Thank you ceecee!

AGG

Hmmm, I think I can understand that to some extent. I am guessing that part of the reason you had the "feelings" originally was because you saw promise and potential for the relationship, and hoped for it to blossom to something more permanent.

Now that you are lowering your expectations and just seeing each other more casually, the magic of those original expectations might be gone, understandably. It does not mean that you cannot rebuild feelings in time, if you two meet each other's ENs. But, I can certainly see that if/when the original hopes are dashed, the disappoinment may be too hard to recover from fully, at least until all the hurt is fully in the past.

I kinda feel the same way now with G - between me telling her about not wanting a child, and not liking some of her habits, I wonder if my "honesty" somehow might have broken down her spirit and optimism about me.... I know that honesty is the right approach, but it still hurts to see your partner wince listening to what you say about them.

AGG

Yip, that would normally be my reaction too. The one thing I am trying to ponder (rationalize? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />), is the part about "if I had to wait". I don't want to wait, I'll go stir crazy (and have been). But, being that I am fairly independent, perhaps I can get happy with not waiting, and just going on about my life, until she is ready to join me. We certainly would not be the first couple to be like that, though it certainly is not my preference. Shrug <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

A few things really struck me. When you ask G to tell you the things she would like you to change & she has none because "she likes you the way you are", the getting ready routine & the baby issue.

She likes you the way you are: I don't see this as her "accepting you for who you are" rather there is nothing for her to have to accommodate in your behavior. G is the one at the far end on the norm so unless she were dealing with someone at the other extreme end she doesn't have to make accommodations. Therefor she doesn't see need for change in you because it's you that must accommodate her.

The hours needed to get ready: If it is OCD I find that more worrisome rather than less. If the OCD gets worse how will it manifest itself? If it's not OCD & simply her way, she has structured her life to not work with most people. Since she seems to want to be accepted for that it means she will be happy to have people make changes to accommodate her needs yet doesn't seem willing to make changes to accommodate others needs.

The baby issue: To wait until almost 40 years of age seems to me an example of how she is unwilling to change her behavior to get something she says she wants. One must make preparations & plans earlier in life but especially at her age. It seems a bit of magical thinking on her part to believe the baby issue is still a viable option.

I understand the desire but it seems to be more of something she holds in her head, kind of a dream situation she doesn't feel the need to make changes for to make a reality.

I don't mean to be harsh & I'm sorry if I sound critical of G. But I see you doing lots to make this work now & how you would have to change to make it work in the future & not much change suggested for her. To be accepted for who she is seems to me she wants to continue on with what she is used to & you become happy with that. As is. Even the tired from going back & forth. Yes, great, cut back the time together & see what happens. See if she can make some of the changes you need to see. What I hope doesn't happen is she now has more time to be on her schedule without having to worry about disappointing you.

If you just wanted a companion this could work out great, but you say you want more & so does she. I don't know, this is a terrible position to be in & I feel for the two of you. To feel so connected & happy when you're together must just make this a torturous situation for you.

Just a quicky here.....(b/c I've got lots more to say, just outta time <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). It's not working so far for you AGG, so what makes you think it'll get better? That fact that you've "diagnosed" her somewhat, therefore can be more accepting?? So now the resentment won't continue to build for you?

Hmmmmmm.....I dunno AGG <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Kind of me reminds me of me and exWH......pre DD, we were night owls, slept til noon on the weekends(hey, we were fresh out of college and in our 20's! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />), totally same schedule, beautiful thing. Then DD came along, I got a clue, so did exWH and we adjusted our lives and became a grown ups. Well as DD got older, a little more independent, I kept to my routine, but exWH started sleeping in late again. I adjusted, did my thing in the AM's w/ DD, yatta yatta....it was irritating, but hey, we were married, had a life together, I dealt w/ it. He too would get up early, was totally reliable if an "event" warranted it. The pitfall I realize now was that in having somwhat opposite schedules, we kind of created separate lives, under one roof. Not good my friend, for a relationship.

Ok, gotta run.....will be back to address as what I see as THE BIGGIE---the baby issue <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Okay, point taken. I can even see this part being okay some of the time, but all of the time? Every day of your life?
Just something to think about AGG. As obviously you have been doing.
I also hear from you though, that you want your special someone by your side, going/doing with you.

Just shared thoughts meant to be well taken.

Karona

FR~
You're begging for chiming in.....


Possibly.
But......maybe we have our past working in our favor too. Maybe our eyes are open to see the negatives....
We are able to see the big picture.
I think all of us here realize there are "no perfect" people.
But, thru our failures/growth/maturity we are able value the positive qualities, evaluate the negatives, and try to decipher what mixture we can live with.


Yes, everyone does have faults, that's what makes us all individuals right FR?
I'm quite sure that we are capable of placing expectations at an ureasonable level.
My current thought is this:
When we are emotionally ready, I think we will be able to clearly appreciate the wonderful, accept the faults of the special person, and welcome them into our lives.
I think our growth and maturity from our failures will allow us to accept someone and appreciate all aspects of them.

What do you think FR?

K.

Karona,

What a great insight. I think you have hit the nail on the head. If we aren't emotionally ready, then the red flags would far outweigh the positives and it would be a non-issue.

While following this and reflecting on the SO in my life, I keep thinking about the 80/20 rule I've read about...basically that no one will be perfect (including me!) and if we meet someone that meets our needs/expectations 80%, then ideally we should be able to accomadate/live with the 20% that isn't our ideal---unless that 20% involves something huge like drugs, abuse, etc. And if we wait until we find someone who meets that 100%, we will have passed up a lot of awesome people who could bring us happiness.

AGG---what a tough time. I guess it just comes down to her willingness to take a step back and reevaluate her actions. I so admire your honesty with her. You've been so open with what your needs are. If it doesn't work out, it certainly won't be because you haven't given it a chance.

UpandRunning

We all know what babies can do to the above quotes! G hasn't a clue how much time and energy having a little one takes. There will be no "routine" for a while! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> It isn't her fault she didn't have children before, it was her choice.

I'm sure G is a fine lady for someone, not a fine fit for you and who you are 24 hours a day. You see the difference and that's a "good thing".

Ok, the baby issue...

G wants a child. No question about it AGG, b/c when someone is sure about something, there's no thinking or waffling, so what she's thinking about NOW is not whether she really wants a child, but whether she's willing to give that up in order to continue a relationship w/ you. A big part of it too is having the CHOICE taken away from her. I can relate to that. When bf and I first started dating, I found out he'd had a vasectomy(he's got 3 kids, I have 1) and it took my breath away! It really bothered me. Funny thing was, before I met him, I'd decided for myself I was done having kids...I'd spent the last 4 1/2 years of my marriage trying to get pregnant w/ #2 and it was a horrendous experience and was the beginning of the demise of my marriage. That chapter was closed for me, but when I found out that it really wasn't an option w/ current bf, I dunno, I was like, but what if *I* change my mind?? Well too bad, not only does bf not want kids, he can't have them! It was MY option being taken away that stung. For G though, it's going to be both....I already have a child, I recognized it was about choices, not more children, but she doesn't, and when you've always envisioned yourself having children, as a women, that's a REAL tough dream to give up AGG.

Lemme ask you a question....without G's sleep pattern's/clutter issues, would you consider having a child? or is it that you are really done having children?

DW

U&R~

I like your thought too, and will adopt this philosophy.

80/20 sounds reasonable to me. Heck, I think I could be quite pleased with an 80/20 guy!!

Karona