As to FR's question:I'm w/ Karona.....thru our experiences, good and bad, I think we've fined tuned what we are looking for in our next mates. We don't have the lovey-dovey blinders on, you know, the love conquers all mentality, that we had when we entered into our marriages in our 20's (at least for most of us). We've also got maturity and experience on our side now. So I don't know if it's that our expections are at an unreasonable level, or we just know better now.

I mean, for me, one of my deal-breakers is a messy person b/c I lived w/ a slob for close to 15 years and I know what that did to me, how it affected my feelings for him and how it affected my relationship, so even if I met a great guy, who had most of all the qualities I was looking for, but was a slob, sorry, not going there again. Is that unrealistic? Maybe, but I was NOT about to put myself in a sitch AGAIN, where resentment could be created. Luckily, I happened to fall in love now w/ someone who values tidyiness as much as I do...whew! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

its [color:"blue"] spouse hunting [/color] not spouse shopping. . .

Wiftty, Is it hunting because you stalk, can use weapons, show off the prize?

And not shopping because everybody knows shopping is for girls?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Wow, so many good insights and thoughts, thanks!

I think I've had a moment of clarity in the last day or so, on which I'll post more today or tomorrow. Of course you'll probably say that it's a moment of fog, so we'll see <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

And just as a hint, no, we are not getting married or moving in together, so no worries. It has more to do with my gut. How's that for being mysterious?

AGG

Can't wait to hear about the moment of clarity.

This may be unnecessary now but something another poster said brought this all home to me.

You want someone to be beside you going through life, with you for most things. I don't see that happening here.

AGG~ AKA:
"MysteryMan"

*tappity tap tap tap...looks at watch....tappity tap tap tap*

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

OK, I'll try to address all the points, and then outline my plan/epiphany so you can all throw darts or 2x4's at it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />... I think a lot of the individual points below feed into my conclusion/plan, so hopefully it'll all come together in the end...

nams:

Well, I suppose my egotistical self would be happy to agree with you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />, but... In reality, G would be making compromises/accommodations too. First of all, for every “wrong” with her, the tables can be reversed to make me look like the wacko. She could say that I am nuts for being up at 7am on weekends, and say that to be normal, I need to sleep till 9. Or she could easily consider my bedtime (10-10:30) to be crazy; I know my ex thought so. So, to some extent, it’s all a matter of perspective, although clearly the norm or average is closer to where I am than where she is. As far as the clutter, again, a matter of perspective. Sure, her place is unreasonable to the average person. But, have a look at FHL’s threads on EN about her ISTJ H who is obsessive about dishtowels and coat hanging – and there is an example of how being too meticulous in picking up can seem nuts. Again, I am no FHL’s H, and so I still think that I am much closer to average than G, but again, G may be just as worried about my “neatnik” tendency as I am about her “slob” tendency.

Next, she would have to move. Yes, she would get to live in a nice house, but her commute would be atrocious - one hour each way in LA's worst stop and go traffic. We talked about other jobs, but she has 10 years with her firm, and it's very unique, so any job change would also be a compromise/sacrifice.

Next, she would have to be a stepmom to two kids who are not hers and are almost teenagers now. It would be easy for me to think "but they are great kids, what's the big deal?", but in reality, even though they are wonderful and sweet kids, they are not tiny and cute, and they are not hers. So, for G, she would end up having to raise someone else's kids, without getting to have her own.

Anyway, I could list more, but the point is that when I put myself in her shoes, she is also being forced to accept me "as-is", which includes making compromises.


That is true. Still, I think that I may be able to occupy myself during those "apart" hours without resenting her. I know other couples who do this, and seem to do it effortlessly. I don't need to be tied at the hip to my partner 24/7, in fact having room for individual hobbies/interests/activities may be good. I know that I need to have those, such as putzing with my cars or working on the house - I would resent it if she were nagging me about getting done with those so we could be together. And yes, if we are on vacation, I'd need to learn to not sit around and wait, but to grab a bathing suit and go the pool.


I totally agree with this, and I refuse to be held responsible for her choices of the past 20 years. So, if she decides that she'll be OK without a child, one of the biggest challenges will be to make sure that she can come to that decision without resenting me, and holding it over my head for the next 40 years. I really think that this is the first and biggest hoop for us to jump through, before we can look at the others. And I think we are OK there, as you will see in the end of the post.


This is a very important point, and as you will see, it forms the foundation of my "epiphany" that I will get to soon <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

DW:

I guess the way I look at it is not as much that it is not working for me, but that I am still learning to live with it. It may sound like splitting hairs, but I think there is a difference, and I am hoping to learn to accept this part of her, because, in the bigger picture, I don't know that I want to break up based on this. I think I can change my routine so that this won't bother me all that much, because I know how to keep myself busy. And I think that what I do have with G way overshadows what I don’t have with her, if that makes any sense.

Karona:


I’ll address your comments and upandrunning’s together <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

upandrunning:


Well, this concept, along with Karona’s point, is where I am now. My take on this issue of perfection is that we, the veterans of marriages, divorces, and dating, need to be careful to not apply all of our knowledge to a prospective person as if we can put the person together from pieces. We can’t. We can date all we want, but every single person we meet will have issues. We all have issues too, as hard as that is to believe <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. We just need to decide if the issues are small enough to put up with, and of course that’s the million dollar question. But, this concept will be the main point of my epiphany further down <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Ragamuffin:


You are absolutely right, which is why I refuse to be held responsible for her choices to not have babies for the past 15-20 years. And yes, I know how much babies change things, which is why I don't want to have another one. And, I think G agrees. I'll address this much more in my "epiphany" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

DW:

Right, this is exactly what I refuse to get into a situation where G would feel that she "gave up" the chance to have a child (which IMO is something she should have acted upon about 10 years ago if it was so important to her), and then I would have it hanging over my head for the rest of my life that she did it "for me". She would have to decide on her own that she does not want a child, and I will cover this more in the "epiphany".

DW:

I agree with this, and I think that this maturity hopefully lets us separate the important things from the non-important things. Which brings us precisely to what I call my moment of clarity, or my epiphany. So here it is. Enjoy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

This last week has been very hard for me. G did not react well to my "no more babies" announcement, and because of that, I felt that she would always resent me for taking that away from her. Then, I felt even worse when she started saying that if she had to choose between baby or me, she would choose me, because I started thinking that if she and I did not work out, it would be as if I first took away the baby, and then on top of that took away "me", which would be twice the pain, so to speak. So, I felt so bad, that I tried to break up with her. But, a funny thing happened along the way.

First, G gave me some insights that I have been missing, because I have not done a good job of placing myself in her shoes (no comment please <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />). This included several things, such as the unsettled feeling we both seem to have because we spend so much time going from place to place, through traffic, always packing/unpacking, etc. I know for a fact that I am feeling very unsettled from this, because my house has been becoming a sty, I feel like the fridge is always empty, the cars dirty, etc etc. And, I somehow projected this frustration onto G and my relationship with her. But once we talked about it, I realized that if I set aside some more time for myself to do my “errands”, I’d feel much more relaxed and happy to drive cross town again. I clearly saw this happen the few times I spent an evening by myself doing all my chores, or this weekend when G is back East visiting family. So, similarly, what I am seeing in G now is not 100% “herself”, but rather, a person who, like me, is quite run down and unsettled. No, I don’t expect her to turn into Martha Stewart with a bit more rest and less running all over town, but I do think that if we both set aside a little more time for recharging batteries every so often, we would feel better. At least I’d like to try this.

Now, more importantly, I looked at the situation from her point of view. If we get married, she would need to move and have a horrific commute. Like I said, her job is very unique, she has 10 years with them, and there is no likely or easy solution of finding another job locally. So, yeah, the idea of spending 2-2.5 hours every single day in LA’s ugly traffic is not the most pleasant, not one that even a beautiful ocean-view home can easily make up for <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I can see that. So, the fact that G is willing to do this tells me that she is trying.

Next, I understood her perspective on me and my kids. Because they happen to be mine, and because I love them, and because they are truly wonderful sweet kids, I kind of assumed that it’s a no-brainer becoming a step parent to them. Heck, I thought, she could just step right in and become part of the family. But, after we chatted, I see that it’s not that simple. My kids are not cute little 2 year olds, they are almost teenagers, and they have a mother in their lives – so it’s not like G would step in and become the instant mother. No matter how nice my kids are, to G this is clearly an added responsibility. One that she says she is very willing to take on, but still, its probably not what people idealize – to marry someone who has two kids, especially if they don’t have their own child, and are being told that they won’t have one of their own. Like it or not, it has a certain ring to it of “take my kids and love them, and that should be enough for you”. At least I might feel that way in her shoes.

Now, despite this, G is very very sweet to my kids, and is very good with them. When she heard that I signed up for a three evening workshop on how to parent pre-teens, she said that she wants to take it with me. That may be a small step, but I think it speaks volumes. She is getting my daughter a birthday present, and is getting something for her brother – two very thoughtful gifts. It tells me that she is investing herself into relationships with them, and they are responding very well – again, it shows me that she is giving quite a bit here, and is making the needed investment to make it work. I really respect that.

So, what are we left with then – my annoyances that she sleeps a lot, and is not a domestic goddess. Fine, I’ll admit it, it annoys me to some extent. But, does this not fall into the 20% that we discussed above?

As I was pondering all my reasons for trying to break up with G, it was these two things I kept repeating, and they just sounded so silly and superficial. After all, I know myself, and I know that I can easily occupy myself every day. So, if G is sleeping or getting ready, I can choose to be frustrated, or I can choose to go about my own chores or projects. In fact, my own projects are “individual” type projects, so in a way, it may be better that G’s sleeping gives us that time apart. If she were up at 8, and I wanted to work on my hobbies, she might be feeling that she were being neglected, KWIM? Like I said, I think I can learn to live with this. Or at least try to.

Same for domestic goddess issue. I am a domestic kind of guy, so I can take care of the shopping/cooking/cleaning. Always have. So why should I care if G does not do that? Sure, it would be nice to have help, but what if she contributes in other ways, be it in decorating, playing/interacting with one of my kids, etc? Isn’t that potentially a good trade? Again, I don’t have the answer, but why not keep dating her and seeing what falls out, instead of reacting to the first sign of trouble? Lets’ recall, DS is very low on my EN list.

Of course the one big reason for not dating and seeing what happens is simple – it is this recent bomb of the baby question. If she wants a baby, I feel pressured because our dating, especially if it did not “work out”, in a way reduces her chances of having a baby. Yes, I know, it was her choice to not have babies until now, and I know that it would be her choice to date me knowing that it may not work out, but I managed to make myself feel responsible for that. And it weighed me down.

So as of this morning I was thinking that we do have to get over the baby issue, and if, IF, she agreed that she was OK with not having one, and would be OK with never holding it over my head that she didn’t have one, then we could simply focus on getting to know each other, without the pressure that I seemed to have built up.

So this is what I was going to post when I first mentioned my new viewpoint. As it turned out, even more stuff happened today when we chatted on the phone, which even further told me that I am on the right track.

She is visiting her sister and BIL, who have 2 year old twins. G adores the twins, and respects her sister very much. So, when we talked on the phone today, the first words out of G’s mouth were “well, I talked to my sister and BIL, and told them that you don’t want another child” (at which point I cringed), “and they said that they TOTALLY understand and support your point of view” (at which point my heart stopped). Apparently they told her that they will not have any more kids, and can certainly see why someone like me, who already “paid the price” and made the accommodation, would not want to do it all over again. Moreover, they basically told G that they did not think that she should be even considering having a child at her age. And, because this came from someone whom she greatly respects, and who is unbiased (unlike me in this situation), she said it really helped her be at peace with the no-child option.

The more we talked, the more things fell in place. You see, the child question came up at the outset of our e-mailing, and I perceived her as someone who might be open to one, but not dead set on one. That was my position too. And believe me, I read the profiles of women desperate for babies, it showed up in their profiles and was all over their emails – so I felt that I had a good read on G’s views. That is why it was such a shock when after not mentioning it for two months, she suddenly said she definitely wanted a child. And this led to all the confusion of the last month.

Well, as G and I talked today, she explained that she never ever in her life felt the strong urge to have kids. She figured that she would, but it was never a goal. And, especially in the past couple of years, she was coming to the decision that she probably won’t, given her age and lifestyle. Which is precisely how she came across to me in our initial emailing.

But, then, when she met me, and saw how great my kids were and how great I was with them, she said that she suddenly felt that maybe it would be great to have a child with me (I guess I must have that effect on women, hahah). And, since she interpreted my answer of being “open” to having kids as a “want” to have kids, she started building it up in her mind again. So, that is what made it hard for her when suddenly I said that I don’t want to have more kids. But, she says that while she is not there 100% yet, she is very quickly getting back to the idea of not having kids of her own, which is where she was just recently.

We discussed the whole concept that this would have to be truly her own decision, not that she gave up having kids for me. She totally agreed, and assured me that she has never in her life built resentment against others for decisions that were hers. So, I am left to accept that if she says that she is truly at peace with it, that she is at peace with it. She said she is still thinking, but hearing those comments from her sister, and her boss who is G’s age and childless and said that she would never have kids at this age, is making her rapidly accept the idea that she will not have kids on her own. And, she said, she really loves the idea of having my kids in her life, which seems like a great attitude to me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

So, I think that after a very turbulent week, we are in a good place. Without the baby issue on the forefront or in the background or hanging over us, we can get back to dating without pressure or stress or anguish. I have laid all of my concerns on the table, and I feel a huge weight removed form my shoulders. I didn’t realize how heavy this weight was until it got lifted,. I now feel very calm and happy and at ease, and can focus again on spending time with G.

I think that sometimes we MB vets walk around seeing so many red flags that we don’t see all the green flags in the process – the point that Karona and weaver and upandrunning made, and I agree to some extent. Every person we meet will have issues. The key is not to say, “aha, red flag, gotta run!”, but to say “hmm, red flag, is it a dealbreaker, or something I can live with?”.

So, when I look at G as a whole, what do I see. Yes, I see some red flags, but they are right there to be seen. She sleeps a lot and she is less neat than me. Fine, understood. But, to me, these two are traits that are right there to be seen and dealt with. These are not traits that speak negatively of a person’s heart or character, and lord knows I met those – dishonesty, tremendous pessimism, self-imposed money problems, manipulation, game playing, etc.

But, sleep and clutter aside, I am connected to G as I have never been connected to anyone in my dating “career”. Does that not count for anything? I still adore being with her, we laugh, talk, and hang out together like best friends. I have never once yet felt the desire to have some space from her – and that has happened with everyone else I dated. Does that not count for anything?

Our personalities are extremely well matched – we are both logical, thinking, introverted, direct, honest, and have very similar views on everything, it seems. That I why we are totally on the same wavelength, it seems. Again, I have never felt that connected and on the same page with anyone else before. I can truly see us being best friends at some point. Does that not count for anything?

OK, I know this is probably the longest post in MB history, so I will leave with this. In that book I keep pushing, Will Our Love Last?, the author makes one comment that I recalled this morning. He says that all book knowledge and guidelines and red flags and stuff is nice, but we should also put a lot of emphasis on that most elusive test of all – the gut feel. He says that no matter what all the facts may say, it is our gut feel that we should listen to, because it is actually based on our processing of ALL information, including some that may be too subtle to be quantified. So, he says, do not ignore the gut feel. And that is precisely what bothered my on Thu, when I was heading up to G’s to break up – my gut feel kept telling that it was wrong. So, instead, I went as far as laying out all the issues and concerns, but not breaking up. And, guess what – I felt better, and so did she. And that is where I am now – my gut feel is telling me that she is definitely worth the invesment, that in many ways she is the best thing that ever happened to me, and that what we have is worth pursuing and seeing what happens in six months or a year.

And that is my plan. My plan is to focus a bit less on the negative, learn to work around it, and enjoy all the positives we have. In other words, not missing the forest through the trees. And, as I have said over and over, giving it time, because in the end, time will tell.

AGG

I'm glad you have come to this "epiphany", for now anyway AGG.

Part of loving someone is loving them because of their little egocentricies, not inspite of them.

"I love the way you are sweet to my kids" "I love the way you kiss me" "I love the way you get that puzzled look in your eye when I bring up a new concept" "I love the way you can't throw out a magazine" "I love the way it takes you two hours to get ready and nobody knows why".

"I love you because I care about you, because I don't want to hurt you, because of the way I feel inside when you are near....and I love ALL of you because it is what makes you YOU".

"Two years from now when our brain chemicals go back to normal, I will love you still because I have chosen to and all the reasons I had at the beginning will still be true...because that is what it means to love someone"

I think you would be a fool to throw possible lifetime love away because of reasons in my opinion which are trivial.

If we have learned anything at all it is that love does not come easy or cheaply, so to walk away when we have it is pretty insane.

Lets list everything that she is not, shall we?

She is not a player.
She is not a drug addict/alcoholic.
She is not a liar or a cheat.
She is not a child abuser/molester.
She is not frigid.
She is not mentally ill.
She is not in poor health.

Wow, looking at it from that perspective, she seems like a pretty good catch to me.

And I do believe that there is therapy/medicine for OCD...because the magazine/clutter issue is probably not something she wants to hang onto anyway. Seems like it is an issue of hers she may want help dealing with.

That issue may be kind of hard to deal with AGG, but I don't think it should be a deal breaker.

The baby issue...well others have pointed out very well that her chances of having a baby now are not very good, especially since with the exception of you, she doesn't have any male prospects. What are the chances she meets a guy who wants to have a baby if you break up, one that she loves and wants to put up with her little issues?

I had my only child at the age of 34 and it has been kind of hard, so at forty when you still have to work full time and are kind of set in your ways it would be even harder I think, although lots seems to do it, but I think it's because they actually have a burning desire to have a baby, not just a mild desire.

Are you really going to be able to hurt her now, after spending all this time with her and being intimate? I worry that her heart may get broken with you. Do you even care about that? Is that something you have discussed and are both okay with?

You can tell I got hurt pretty good by someone who decided after the fact that I wasn't the girl for him. It seemed irresponsible to take it to the level he did with me and then to make a decision which should have been made before our hearts got that involved. Although I realize it happens as you get to know someone, I see heartache here AGG...and I just hate to see that.

Oh well I'm rambling pretty good today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You convinced yourself, therefore, you convinced me too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Many pages ago, I said that you might find the forest still more beautiful regardless some trees it's made of... For it seems you did - all the best.
And baby... if your gf decides to have it, we'll be convinced too, so, everything is OK (I love babies <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

Best wishes and regards

LOL, that's how I feel too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

If she can promise to not resent you over not having a baby, and if you can promise to not resent her over her sleeping habits and clutter issues (that will come in to your neat home AGG, don't forget that!), then I think you have a shot <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

On the baby issue, I do think there is a HUGE difference b/w a woman who, eh, maybe kinda sorta would like to have a child, and one who truly desires one, has ALWAYS seen herself having children....and the fact the G states she falls into the 1st one, bodes well. I think it' nice that her sis and BIL have made her feel better about YOUR choice, but if it truly doesn't come from w/in G, then yer headed for trouble. Those baby strings are POWERFUL AGG and very hard to deny, but then again this is coming from someone who falls into the latter category <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />, so take that w/ a grain of salt.

BTW, I just knew you weren't ready to break-up w/ her...I'm just clairvoyant that way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

DW

My co-worker once told me that as long as you have passion in your marriage (not just sexual, but romantic, spiritual etc) then all your mates stuff isn't so bad...

Guess those Harley's are on to something, huh? Gotta keep meeting all the EN's I suppose! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

DW

weaver:

This is so sweet, thank you for putting it in those terms <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


Well, this is certainly how I feel today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


I agree. And I can add much much more to that list:

We have similar personalities
We enjoy similar recreational activities
We have similar views on how much socializing we like to do
We have similar political preferences
We are both family focused
We are both financially responsible
We are both somewhat modest and restrained <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, the point is not "what" we are, but how similar we seem to be in the important ways. I would hate to have "practical" issues come in the way of that.

Let me put it another way. I thought about all my ENs, and how G is meeting them. Here is a crack, on a scale of 1-10, listed in order of importance to me:

Honesty and Openness 10
Affection 10
Conversation 10
Sexual Fulfillment 9
Physical Attractiveness 10
Recreational Companionship 9
Admiration 10
Family Commitment 9
Financial Support 6
Domestic Support 2

Doesn't look all that bad to me, you know?


OK, I admit that now you lost me. All along I thought you were supportive of me continuing to see G, because there is so much good stuff there. And I went along with you, and now I feel like you pulled the rug from under me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. If you see a heartache coming, are you saying that I should not continue to see her? Or are you saying that I should only see her if I can tell for sure right now that I will never break up with her? I am certainly not ready to make that promise; if I were, I'd be getting engaged <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />. I understand that it hurts to break up, and one thing I have never done and will never do is keep dating someone if/when I know that there is no future. But your point above seems to imply that one should not get serious in dating if there is a chance of a breakup. I guess I am struggling to understand that point; for me personally, and I think for many others on these boards, this is precisely what we did wrong in our early marriages - married someone out of love, without really knowing them. I certainly don't want to do that again, because I hate divorce. So how can I make a promise today that we will not break up at any point in the future? Of course I would prefer to not break up, but dating is a learning process, and one never knows what he will learn until, well, until he actually learns it... I am not as clairvoyant as DW, I'm afraid <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Or did I misunderstand your point?

B2M:

I KNEW someone was going to say that, good job <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


For now, that is how I see it. And if I keep seeing it that way, I think I can be very happy with G.


You lost me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I am operating under the assumption that she will NOT want one - am I being slow this morning or something? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

DW:


That is how G described herself, and that is exactly how she came across to me at the beginning. Which is why her sudden statement that she wanted a child came as a shock to me, and why now that she is explaining things and stating that she is not at all gung-ho on having one, things are again making much more sense. Like I said, I never saw her as a "must have a child" woman, so that sudden proclamation seemed out of character, which really threw me for a loop.


Absolutely. But I think the sis and BIL inputs were not as much to tell her not to have a baby, but to validate me and my choices <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I think that until she talked to them, she felt that I was being selfish for not "granting" her a baby - but once she talked to them, and they said that they totally support someone in their mid 40's and with two kids to not want another child, it helped her not see me as selfish, but as a normal and caring guy who knows he cannot be the parent that he would want to be to another child, and so is making the choice to not have one. As far as her choosing to not want a child, I think it is clear that she was quite ambivalent about it to begin with, and with some of the other inputs she is getting, she is quickly becoming at peace with the decision. So it would be HER decision, not mine alone.


Yep, I knew it too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Good work!

One thing I really like is that I feel that all the cards and issues are out on the table now, and we are talking, negotiating, POJAing, brainstorming, the works. And I feel good about that. If we can talk it all through, and both be happy with what we come up with, then I think that is a wonderful testament to our compatibility and ability to work together as a team. And so far, I have always liked how we seem to keep each other's interests in mind when we negotiate, but not at the expense of our own. I might not have said it before, but we are both very, uh, strong-willed, which means that we do not let our Takers get taken to the cleaners <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. So, it puts me at ease that when we agree on something, we are both truly OK with it, which is something I could never do with my ex - she always "caved in" (in her mind), and then kept a scorecard <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

I must say that this really bums me out <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. I care about it tremendously, and I care about G tremendously - I was a total wreck for the few days that I was contemplating breaking up with her. I would not do it lightly, if it came to that.

But, in the end, isn't this a risk we always take in dating? Without becoming vulnerable, we cannot have a meaningful relationship, but once vulnerable, we are always open to being hurt. How else can it be?

I guess I don't know what to do with the warning to "not break the poor girl's heart"... I am honest and open with her, about my thoughts, feeling, plans, fears, joys, etc - what more/else should I do to not "break her heart" if things don't work out? It's not like if I decided to break up that I would do what everyone seemed to have done to me - started looking for a replacement first (or found one), without bothering to clue me in <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />. What more can one do than be honest and upfront, even if the decision is not a happy one? You don't actually suggest that a break up should never be an option once two people get involved (in dating, not marriage), do you?

AGG

Because AGG, you keep looking for reasons to break up with her, and I am afraid that eventually you will convince yourself that you found it (the deal-breaker) and that is why I said I see a heartbreak coming on.

Sure right now you are in a good place with it, but in a few days are you going to start questioning it again? Is that what we are all going to do when we finally find the right person who loves us? Look for reasons why it won't work?

I don't know how to not break someones heart after they have fallen in love with you, but you are probably right honesty would be the best way, and right from the start to, as you have done. I asked if you cared, only as a question because I haven't seen you address this yet.

I am just playing devels advocate here...maybe trying to give a voice to all the reasons you should give this a go.

She sounds like a great girl to me, always has from what you write about her.

Just the fact that she loves you and is so good with your kids is huge to me.

You are so analytical.

Another good reason to feel you have found the right person. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hm, I thought I'd rest my case... but will add a few things:

The more time goes by, the more you/we are not willing to go back and try with someone else, so much time and energy invested, so much deeper involvement, therefore, the more and more you accept...

AGG, I HOPE your comparison current gf vs. your poor&sad dating experience after D, and your luck of 'strenght' to try all again and from the very beginning with a new one - is just ONE PROMIL of reasons that it's not easy to break up with someone now, and that ENs you numbered above are the main reason.

And how I see you see the situation, you will say "yes, it is just one promil!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If so, why wouldn't you be... convinced <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />, one day, if she decides to have a baby, that you would accept her 'as is', the same as you do now...

PS: I do not think you should break up with her.
I just think that you should not give up with meeting her half way, in all of those issue you feel so frustrated.
Because I don't accept nor believe an 'as is' ('accept me as is, even in issues that you are so unhappy with') in a relationship that is planned to be built to last for a long time...

OK, good, so we are in violent agreement here, cool <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />:).


Aha, now I see your point. Thanks. Well, have you ever seen a non-analytical ISTJ? Of course not. So, thanks for the compliment <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

OK, seriously, you are right, I am probably guilty of spending way too much time and effort looking for flaws instead of appreciating the positives. Or at least it might appear that way. But I think that it is so important to look at the real picture, and not only at the feel-good, rose colored glasses on, infatuated, euphoric fantasy.

Like I said, most of us entered our first marriages that way. I know I did. I knew nothing about ENs, LBs, compatibility, expectations, etc. I fell in love and got married. And we all learned some lessons through those marriages and divorces. And the biggest lesson is that love does not conquer all, and that compatibility is important.

So yes, I am analytical, and that is the only way I know how to assess compatibility. I simply cannot say "Wow, I love this girl, so I'll marry her". Sure, I will never (hopefully) say "I don't love this girl, but we are great on paper, so I will marry her" (which would be the epitome of being too analytical), but I do want to say "I love this girl, we are great together, and I want to mary her". KWIM?

Besides, to me, being analytical is exactly what we should be doing in the Negotiation Phase. It's the point where the warm fuzzies are still there, but all the flaws and issues are also seen, and it's time to start evaluating the issues and how they would affect a marriage. I think we owe it to each other to do that. Skipping that stage and getting married based purely on the warm fuzzies is what got most of us to the divorced situation to begin with.

Anyway, I know that I hate divorce, and so I definitely want to make sure that the compatibility is there. I'd rather do that, at the risk of seeming analytical, than be divorced again. But, don't worry, this ISTJ does know how to feel and to be in love, so I will not look at this relationship (or any other) as a balance sheet only <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Thanks for your thoughts, weaver, and for the kind words about G. Believe it or not, it means a lot to me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

Well, I wouldn't characterize my post divorce dating as "poor and sad"; I cherished every single relationship I had, and with the exception of a couple of ruthless players, I have a special fond memory of every one I met and dated.

As for the second part, you bet - I will never marry someone only because I was afraid to start all over again with the whole dating thing. My motto is firmly "I'd rather be alone than wishing I were alone". So yes, the main reason for marrying someone would be the EN part rather than "I don't want to be alone". I am not afraid to be alone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


See how wise you are <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG