About the financial stuff, MM. I agree with Lemonman. You're not taking 100% responsibility for your own life.

Start.

You'll like it.

If you're having financial trouble, go read lots at The Motley Fool (fool.com). There's great info there.

Again, what could I have done short of not reconciling with her? I would really like to know the answer to that one.

In His arms.

Folks, I may be in meetings at work all day tomorrow so I will duck in and out. I will be on tomorrow night for sure.

In His arms.

Lem:

I don't think it's controversial, or even that those of us who've posted on this thread are all that far apart in our perceptions of what could/should be done.

I think a lot of the probing by some of us in2 MM's "part" in his W's feeling disenfranchised (I love it when I can use big words, it makes me sound smart somehow!) from the M, is an effort 2 explore whether everything that could be done 2 save the M has been done... ...because I think we know how hard the DV and the fallout from it will be if that's the only recourse.

There ARE people who've DV'd and been successful at having a civil relationship with their Xs - managing kids and stuff. I've brought Spacecase up more than once 2day. I just saw him last month, and he's doing very well, now 2 years DV'd. his kids are grown and moving out of the home that he left 2 his xW.

I'd love 2 see MM being able 2 make that kind of break, if a break is called for.

But so much of his latest post shows me that the A has been going on all this time, and so his W is clearly a WW in the fog. As WAT has said many times, she can't think clearly, so MM has 2 take some additional responsibility 2 be the sentient member of the M. But it's also been a long time, so the simple fact is that, even if Mrs MM were 2 snap out of the fog on her own now (the only one who can do the snapping is her, as always), it'll take 2-5 more years for recovery 2 run it's course, statistically.

I've had 2 keep the stats in mind since the very first day JL posted 2 me in February or March 2002, saying that withdrawal will take my W a LOT longer than most, because her A lasted so long.

I don't think anybody should have 2 suffer like this long term, but often the simple truth is that the alternative, DV the bum, will just change the na2re of the suffering. It won't end it.

For me, that means keep on keeping on. Keep on learning my life lessons. And watch. And wait.

And while I've been at it, my kids have grown and are becoming more independent all the time. Heck, my DD's married, and they're looking at houses now (though we'll have 2 help, since prices have gone through the roof in recent years). My son just 2rnd 19, and like I was at that age, he's s l o w l y finding his niche and pursuing it. He's not independent yet, but it might not take 2many more years for him 2 get 2 that stage.

After that? Who knows? Hopefully, she'll be at a good place in "her process" and we can continue 2gether - maybe one of us can be there 2 put the other in the ground in a few decades.

Pain IS a given, and misery IS optional. Life IS short, but at the same time, there's no real urgency 2 do any particular thing (conquests of fu2re relationships, that kind of thing).

It 2k me a long time 2 realize that my W has NEVER hurt me - I've chosen 2 be hurt by her actions. Sure, she may have been selfish and thoughtless, but I could have grown 2 the point where I could have detached happily a lot sooner than I did - I just wasn't ready until I was ready.

I hope MM is ready, particularly if this DV is what he thinks he wants, but I haven't been very aware of his process in a 2ple of years now. But it's been some of the DJs he's alluded 2 and outlined in this thread that has made people who care very much about him pose the 2uestions they have about his contribution 2 the mess he and the Mrs are currently in.

-ol' 2long

That's okay, MM. I'll be leaving for OOSP 2morrow morning, and won't be back until this weekend.

-ol' 2long

MM:

I think it is more the point that a TRUE RECONCILIATION would NOT have led to this financial dire straits. You were NOT in true recovery while you let this happen to your finances. You simply weren't. That must be acknowedged.

You say you could not have protected yourself without NOT having reconciled with her....well, maybe you are right...but I don't think it was reconciliation but more of placating her.

You had her back willing to "try" and salvage the marriage. This was no small feat considering your marriage was on the brink of death....your beautiful, innocent children's life's forever scarred by divorce....BUT in your own perhaps desperate attempts at reconciliation you avoided and placated your wife with this. That is all we are saying. For that, you have to own up to it.

Yes, maybe if YOU would have enforced this need for financial honesty and made it a priority of your recovery (and it appears from your past that this needed to be done) you would NOT have had a year long recovery and what is happening now would have happend 6 months ago...maybe you are right...but you can obviously see that it was built on a house of cards anyway. There was never a "true recovery".

That isn't my point anyway...what is done is done.

What is paramount is for you to learn about financial matters and take responsibility for this from this moment on. The fact of the matter is....if you yourself were of the right financial mind, you would have NEVER let this get to this point....recovery or no recovery. I hope and pray you understand my meaning here. This is not meant to be an insult to you, or kick you when you are in pain and needing a helping hand.

I would reccomend the following resources for you:

1. Fool.com (great discussion boards for budgeting, living below your means, and credit card management)

2. Dave Ramsey's financial peace university . Excellent book for getting out of debt and getting your financial house in order

3. Your money or your life (an great book on understanding debt and money management)

4. The Millionaire next door .........perhaps the greatest book ever written on finances. Maybe not the book you need now, but definetely in the future WHEN (not if) you get your financial life in order.

Goodluck

Your friend

LM

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

2long.......

that was quite possibly one of the best statements of reality I have ever read here....

LEM

To me this is a statement that you have accepted it’s ok to love less.

There is nothing wrong with that if you look it in the eye and accept it with your whole self.

To me the answer: “I will continue in a M that has a reduced potential because of the bullsh!t”, is unacceptable.

That’s just me though.

One day I’ll reach the point where I’ve given all I can give. If I’m not satisfied with the outcome I will divorce. It’s that simple.

Until then, I give it my all every day. I pick my W every day. I have HOPE which is key IMO.

Without hope none of this is worth it. Hope without validation sooner or later becomes living the life of a fool.

Plank.

MM,

I didn't realize that your wife and you never really entered recovery...that she remained in WS mode after you reconciled.

Can I ask what the conditions you laid out for her to come back after the custody hearing (where you were granted custody) were? You said she never gave up the cell phone? Was this not a condition of returning?

The reason I said that I hoped you someday recovered your marriage was because it is true that most people do not recover from divorce where children or a LTM are involved. Some do but it takes an incredible amount of introspection, self-forgiveness, forgiveness of the spouse, etc (as in Spacecase's case). So I always hope for reconciliation for the sake of all, including the children. And it does happen, I know of three people in my immediate world who have remarried, two after years apart, where they shared children.

I agree she has some hard lessons to learn, a fall to take so to speak...a humbling of sorts, and realizations. You will learn lessons more easily/quicker than her because you are the one who is going to be left with the pieces to pick up...at first, and she will continue in lala land...for awhile, but not forever, so eventually she will as well.

I know this is too soon to ask, and that you are in shock/grief mode still...but is that your hope?

FamilyMatters (remember him), comes to mind...after he took full responsibility for his mistakes and forgave himself for them, as well as his exWife, he went on to do motivational speaking. I bring him up because I believe he is another one, besides Spacecase who did recover fully from his divorce(although I am not sure as I have not seen an update in awhile from FM, but I believe he was surely going to). He too did the hard inner work.

WHICH struggle?

Morph? As in...."new creation?"

Very unclear what you are "agreeing with."

FH,

If this question is directed at me...then all I was saying is that it is sad that I will have to deal with this woman (if she stays this way) for that long. I would really not want to.

In His arms.

Will check in durign the day folks...and definitely this evening. Have a meeting at work all day. Fun!

In His arms.

Mortarman said:


Simple things, MM. Things like changing your tax withholding, knowing that you were going to have a tax bill if you left it the same. Things like changing your own personal spending habits, and putting that money into a savings account – or paying down your debts – instead.

Does that go against POJA? Very possibly. I am of the opinion, however, that you and your wife are not in a place where you can effectively agree on anything.

Longhorn said:

Hi Longhorn! I don’t think we’ve interacted before. Nicetameetcha! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I think, as 2Long said, that we are all trying to help MM get through this. There is a great deal that is within MM’s control; he just (and we all do this) gets so focused on what’s happening on the other side that sometimes he forgets. The more he remembers and understands what he can control – and what he can’t, the better off he’ll be.

You’re right that MM was reacting. And his reactions were – and are – entirely under his control. Today is the third anniversary of the most devastating event of my life so far. I reacted horribly. Can I blame my ex for my reaction? No. I can only take the responsibility for it and forgive myself for having been human – and having been unable to respond with compassion when my relationship with our daughter (who was then three months old) was threatened on a massive scale.

MM and I, and you and everyone else, have almost no control over the events that life brings us. We have a much, much higher level of choice when it comes to the way we respond to those events. That’s not blaming MM for his wife’s actions. Not at all.

Assuming this is in response 2 what I said that Lem 2uoted, I think you may be saying the same thing (perhaps with a little anger or annoyance added).

It's not "loving less", however. It's "loving better". I've replaced my misplaced romantic love for my W with a stronger, deep "caring love" (Harley) for her that will survive whether our M does or not.

As for the M's potential... it has what potential we bring in2 it. And since I can't control what my W brings in2 it, I bring an increasingly "authentic ME" 2 the process.

It's different now. It may seem colder 2 some, but it's not (or it's temporary). It's far more real than the games we wound up playing in the years up 2 the beginning of the A - and certainly more real than the horrible mediocrity of our M during the A.

-ol' 2long

The struggle 2 find an equitable way 2 relate 2 his W - whether she's his W or his xW.

Morph = change
"new creation" = rebirth.

clear as mud? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

MM,
Your post about the events leading up to 9-11 is heartbreaking. I don't think it's any real mystery what happened to your W on that day, do you? One thing I've never heard you talk about, though, is your readjustment when you came back from Bosnia. I've had some conversations recently with some soldiers just back from Iraq, about how hard it is to come home... even when their families are waiting for them with open arms. But you went from one battleground right into the next. Just wondering whether that factors in somehow. Or whether you even had a chance to consider it in the midst of all the other chaos(???)

Thanks for answering my question...



Yes, it makes perfect sense. It's pretty much what I thought you would say. In other words, you taylor your approach to the person with whom your communicating, to maximize the liklihood that the message will be understood and well received. A wise approach, I think.

So... I'm just wondering what would happen if you tried this approach with your wife? Stop all efforts to preach, teach, quote, make her see, lead her back. You've said you believe she was either never saved, or is currently in a state of rebellion... despite what she professes... so why do you continue to hammer away at a message she won't or can't hear right now?

I'm wondering if -- every time you pull out the Bible with your wife (literally or figuratively) if SHE sees it as a giant stick you've been using to beat her over the head with. What would happen if you put the stick away?

What do you have to lose at this point? If you end up divorcing her, you won't have any responsibility to be her spiritual leader anyway.

Why not try treating her with the same care and compassion -- minus the sermonizing -- that you treat us other 'unbelievers' with for awhile.... just to see what effect it might have.

Maybe it won't have any effect. But isn't that the way you'll want to treat her if you divorce her anyway? At least for the sake of the kids?

And wouldn't it be ironic if this turned out to be the very thing that finally allowed HER to find her OWN way back to Jesus? Back to you?

Just wondering....

--SC

MM,

I really like SC's advice to you. I am really torn about your situation. You have not idea how it bothers me. SC asked a very very serious question about adjusting to coming home as well as dealing with her betrayal. Have you considered some counseling about all of this?

I ask this because it seems to me you are in a very deep hole right now. You do know what the first thing you should do when you are in a deep hole right?... YOU PUT THE SHOVEL DOWN...quit digging. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I am actually very serious about this. You need to sort YOUR life out one step at a time, and your W may not be the first step you take. Financial comes to mind, the kids come to mind, your job comes to mind. And yes, SC suggested something very important to think about, your approach to your W has not worked, so it is time to consider something else. First step...put the shovel down. Then, recover your strength, focus on your goals, and start to plan again.

You are NOT communicating with your W well. Some of it is your fault, and some of it, perhaps most of it is her fault. She is in contact with OM, so she does NOT want to listen, but you can do better. Perhaps being still, listening, praying, and focusing on the important steps YOU need to take to get out of the hole will help with your W, but I KNOW they will help with your life.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

MM

I am very sorry for the pain your family is in. My heart goes to all of you and especially your children. I understand your need to protect them.

I keep thinking about this and I agree with SC. I know you may have already done this to some extent however you have identified anger as an issue. Maybe that has been coming through to your wife. If she is like me I can feel a disconnect from my h before he realizes.

I know you are no longer interested in reaching your wife at this point and I understand that. I wanted to give you an example of something that goes on in our house. My h and my d are very technical oriented people. They both have passages down in the Bible, they can tell you what happened when, the events leading up to and after. It boggles my mind the information they can keep packed in there minds. However they have a harder time with heart issue's, with empathizing. My d does not understand at all how one cannot believe the Bible and is very judgemental about it. She could do a very good job at leading people to CHRIST except she does not show grace very well. Myself and my daughter on the other hand have a very hard time following technical things in the Bible. I look like a deer in the headlights when someone starts discussing this. My younger d doesn't get it at all. Yet we deal more on the heart issues, compassion, grace and leading with CHRIST like love, however the tender side. Yes there is a time for the hard stance love. I just don't think your wife is hearing the technical things. It doesn't mean stand by and let her do whatever, it means reaching her in other ways. By action, by tenderness, by using yourself for JESUS to love her through. There were many times I could not love my h, but I knew that if he was not shown love he would not come back, so I used to pray that JESUS would love him through me that HE would feels CHRIST'S love through me.

I know you have tried very hard and my heart breaks for you. I feel your tiredness, anger, frustration and pain.

My prayers for you and your family

MM, are you okay?

bump