(((((Mortarman)))))

Hugs brother. Write when you can.

foolish women baffle me

when a woman has a good man

and a lovely family

why would she throw away everything that has lasting value

I just don't get it

I just don't get it

I just do NOT get it

Pep

I'm with you Weaver...

My view of the religious aspect is that it can be a mechanism to rationalize the unpleasantness of the situation..."Satan made her do it" while not accepting the FACT that she thought SO little of your family.

Satan is not responsible for this...SHE is!

She is a person of Free Will and CHOSE to do ALL that she has done...

She CHOSe to hurt you and your kids...she didn't care enough to stop and think for ONE MINUTE!

Accepting these facts are one of the hardest things to go through...it is finally subsiding for me...but she DIDN'T CARE enough to stop!

Her selfishness has run rampant and you are doing the RIGHT thing by getting yourself and the kids AWAY from her as quickly as possible...

There is no honor is going down with her "ship"...you have done more than most and there is a peace to be had knowing that...

Save yourself for the kids...

Best of luck and make GOOD choices...you're a smart fella!

WNB

Actually, an affair is rarely so simple as that. She may very well have thought a great deal of MM and her family. And on 9/11, not very far from the Pentagon, with her husband far away and their marriage already on shaky ground, in a moment of terrible weakness and stress and vulnerability ... she turned to someone she should not have.

That says many, many things about MM's wife. It doesn't say that she thought little of her family.


She is, indeed, 100% responsible for her actions.


Yes, she is. And we need to understand that, from all of the research that has been done on the biochemistry associated with all of the biological drives that come into play here, these are some of the most powerful and utterly confounding drives that any human ever faces. Once they're awoken, it is extremely difficult (but not at all impossible) to walk away from them.

In a moment like MM has described, I suspect that a large minority of the people here might react similarly. Even though we -know- better. And so did she.

I am not excusing her actions, here. She's made unethical choices that have caused excruciating heartbreak and harm to her whole family. I am simply saying that I understand, and have empathy, for her. I wish for her all the healing that time and love and her deity can bring her.


That's probably an oversimplification. I suspect she did stop and think at some point. Probably many points. And I suspect that something in this entire situation has allowed her to continue on this path. It must be terrible for her -- and possibly also extraordinarily freeing.


It's hard to say why she didn't stop. "Caring enough" is an interesting way to put it. Most of the time people who are having affairs are just like everyone else who has fallen in love. "It's love. Love always triumphs. This is right. It must be. I can FEEL it." Remember hearing that?

It's not a lie when someone who is having an affair says it. It is the clearest expression they can find of the truth -- and the depth -- of their emotional state. It's incredible. Anyone who has ever been in love knows how incredible it is.

It might be better, then, to say that she cared TOO MUCH to stop. In other words, the emotional intensity vastly diminished her ability to make a rational, ethical evaluation of the harm she was doing. (We normally call this "the fog.")



It may indeed be labelled selfishness, but perhaps it would be more accurately labelled as self-centeredness. A chemically-induced state in which her wellbeing, and that of her affair partner, is so strong that it overcomes her natural concern for her husband and family.


This is probably not an accurate assessment. It takes a GREAT deal of harm for it to be better for a child to be separated from a parent. From a child-centered point of view, MM's greatest desire NEEDS to be that his wife -- whether she remains his wife or not -- should find the strength to continue to be the wonderful parent that she has been since her kids were born. Anything less is so horribly damaging to their kids that it does not bear considering.


There is tremendous honor and integrity in keeping one's vows, even in times when the rest of the world thinks you're crazy. That's what vows are for. MM certainly doesn't -have- to. No one here will tell him that.

But I personally respect him all the more for every second he has had the ability to make the choice, and has said, "No, I made this promise. I want to keep it if I can."



Save yourself for the kids...

Best of luck and make GOOD choices...you're a smart fella!

WNB [/quote]

bump.

You have some good thoughts there, Just J, into the mind of a WW.

It is always helpful to get a little more understanding of our FWW 'reasoning' for her affair.

I have accepted that having an affair does not make our spouses ALL BAD;
just sinners like the rest of us.

The key is for them to repent and make that all important turn around.
Forgiveness isn't so hard when they are sincerely sorry.

Thanks, Just J
Ron

Folks,

I used the last several days of last week and this past weekend to really sit down and chew on what you all have been saying…what friends, relatives, my pastor etc have been saying…and what has come from my prayers. I have appreciated everyone’s input and believe me, all of you have had a hand in me assessing this situation and coming up with the conclusion I have.

One of the last responses I have gotten in all of this came from a good friend of mine. He and his wife have been friends of Mrs. Mortarman and I for as long as both couples have been married (we got married a year apart). This guy, Rob, went on to pastoral school and is now becoming a pastor of a small church in western Pennsylvania. While I have had many friends on here and locally that I have relied on, Rob has been the guy closest to the situation here and to keeping me on track with my walk with the Lord.

This past Saturday, we went to breakfast together and discussed the situation some more. I discussed with him all of the things that you all have brought up. And later, he emailed me with a response. I’d like to post that here:


Rob and I talked later and I have agreed with him. He did say that, as a friend, that he was going to help me stay on track with what I do now. And what does that mean?

Well, Rob talked over our breakfast about how there has never been “tears of repentance” by my wife. Many on here, especially FWSs understand what he is talking about here. Sure, she said she was sorry. Sure, she said she would “try.” But this woman has not once had these tears of repentance. The kind that flow from your face…the kind that take you to the point of “it is all me…it is my fault.” The kind that provides a door to getting up and turning from that past and moving forward toward what God wants. This is the definition of repentance. And Mrs. Mortarman has never had those during this whole sordid 4 years!

So, when Rob says he is going to help me stay on track, it means that he will come alongside and make sure that Mrs. MM isn’t able to say a few things or make another half-hearted effort…and I allow her back in. It means he will be moving me forward without my wife…but all the time understanding that there may come a day where the Lord and her finally come face-to-face, and she does reach that point of repentance. Just as JL said…that we don’t know what the future may hold. But as all of my prayers have pointed to, all of the sermons at church lately seem to be pointing to, most of the posts here keep pointing to…that God does want me to get up from here and go. It is time for peace.

I have done a lot of introspection on what many of you have posted about the dynamics here. About how I felt coming back from war. About my communications skills with my wife since returning and learning of her and the Troll. About me “lecturing or preaching” at her, etc. I even discussed much of this with Rob and my pastor. And I want to say that much of what you all have said is true. That there have been things, and still are things, I need to work on. I do see that and I have and will stand up…and begin again.

But also, as Rob and some others have told me (people that have known my wife)…that it probably wouldn’t have mattered. Just J just posted a post that was very informative, and I will seek to take the time to respond to it. But one big thing I wanted to say about it (and other posts like it above) is that while my wife’s actions are 100% her own, just as mine are 100% my own…the key is…who does she serve?

We all serve either Jesus or Satan. Their purposes, their will. We cannot escape that. Every action we take either furthers God’s will, or Satan’s will. As Jesus said, we are either for Him, or we are against Him. There is NO middle ground! So, when I speak of this, I speak of a woman that is no longer concerned about what God wants. No longer wanting to bend her knee. No longer willing to see what she needs to do in order to serve the right master. She is about serving herself…and anytime we are about serving anyone other than Christ, then we are serving Satan.

Even my sins serve Satan. At least his purposes. But the difference is that when I sin, I still know who is on the throne. I still know Whom I serve. I still want to do His will. So, I take that sin to Him…He picks me up and brushes me off…and we begin again.

This is NOT the case with Mrs. Mortarman. She has not taken her sins to Him and allowed Him to restore her. Instead, she has lived in continual rebellion to Him for 4 years now. Even when the affair wasn’t active…her continued disrespect of me as her husband and continued non-submission to the Lord…as been sheer acts of rebellion to Jesus. As FH is always saying…there is a throne. It belongs to Jesus. Allowing anyone or anything on that throne besides Him is showing the ultimate disrespect to the person that not only deserves it…but demands it.

Mrs. MM may want to scream “abuse,” but it just isn’t so. Sure, both of us have done things to each other over the last 4 years that might be termed “abusive.” That we all know! But the issue here is plain and simple. Mrs. MM professed to be a follower of Christ. I watched her be baptized early in our marriage. As a believer, she is held to a different standard than non-believers. She is NOT her own…she was bought with a price! Thus, the Man who paid the price for her, demands that throne. He deserves that throne.

I married a woman who said she was a follower of Jesus. If she had not of been, if she had not shown me indications that she was…I would have NEVER married her! So, if she was and is a Christian, then inside her, there is a war going on. The Holy Spirit would be waging a war with Mrs. MM for that throne. It is that war I have not seen in her!

Instead, I believe now that she was either never saved or she has moved so far away from Jesus, that God now must deal with her in very harsh terms, as would all fathers with rebellious children. In either case, as Scripture outlines, that makes her an unbeliever…and frees me from this covenant.

You see, as Rob and I discussed, I may be the one that has been sinning the last few years. I may be the one that had blocked the Lord from getting to my wife, because of my inability to “let go” and let God deal with her. Because I trusted my family and wife to God before I left for Bosnia (and came home to this disaster), it appears that I have not fully trusted God with my wife. Not enough to let go. A part of this may be my unwillingness to get up from here and go.

My wife a few days ago, when I was silent most of the evening, came to me later and said “See, this is what I am talking about. I came in to have you watch this one thing on TV about relationships…when I came to the ball field for our son’s practice, you barely spoke to me…you left without us deciding on dinner…how do you expect to build a relationship that way?” Well, folks…here’s the rub. First off, I didn’t know she wanted me to watch the show…she never told me until later. She came to the ball field in the middle of practice, and I am one of the coaches. When we were done with practice, the kids divided up in cars between me and her, and I told my oldest son to tell Mrs. MM to follow me and we will pick up dinner. Again…miscommunication! But what I wanted to say is that this statement of hers was a ruse. She has field for divorce and has said she has every intention of getting away from me. So, would that evening last week have made a difference? Nope! She is still without repentance…she is still stuck on doing her own thing. All that statement was her making a justification to herself about what she is doing.

Word’s mean very little without action. And there has been very little action out of her. Very little.

So, I will do as the Lord has asked me to. I am not interested in a dialog right now about what ails us, or what problems we have. I am not interested in counseling with her. I am not interested in meeting any of her needs. I have done all of these…and met with “I want more…but don’t expect anything from me!”

All I am interested in now is either moving forward and securing that peace Rob talked about…and working on the issues that I have to make me a better husband to whomever is beside me. Or, I am interested in further working on our marriage…once there has been tears of repentance. Once there has been my wife saying “I will serve the Lord, no matter how I feel or what I want.” When or if that happens, then I will be interested in continuing.

So, I will continue down my path. I will get out of the Lord’s way. I will release my wife to her decisions…and the consequences that come from them. I have not been perfect, none of have been. And Mrs. MM knows that our current issues are NOT the ones that faced us before her hooking up with the Troll. Which means, that if she would submit herself to the Lord, get into counseling and do the work, that these issues would soon go away. And we would be smarter for what we have gone thru. But, it appears that the pain level the Lord must bring upon her backside is going to have to be huge (if she is indeed a believer) or else, she is an unbeliever and will be free to wander down her own path. And we know where that leads!

Again, thanks for the support. And I still want to continue to dialog as I work thru this. But I believe that God has drawn the line now. He has given me the message to let her go. Either for me to have peace or for Him to deal with her. Or maybe both.

And guess what? For the first time during all of this, I’m okay with that! It has actually felt incredible to make that decision! To just say to God “she and my marriage are all yours…”

This is now my path. I am very interested in where it will go next. Should be interesting!

In His arms.

MM -

Glad to see you posting again. I'm glad that you're finding some peace at last, and I hope it grows for you.

Your friend said
Something to think about (and please understand that I'm not trying to give you a potentially false hope), is that the "godly wife" your friend refers to could very well be the current Mrs MM, when/if she comes to a true repentance. It may not be, but "All things are possible through God".


I reached a similar point about a month ago. I was home with just DD, and suddenly realized that if it came to just me and DD, I was OK with that. It's not what I want, but I could survive.

Reaching this point for you will, I believe, give your strength and resolve an incredible boost. As our pastor is fond of saying, "Don't ask how big is your problem, ask how big is your God."

A dear friend of both MP and me told me, several months back, that I had to remember that while God does value marriage very much, His number one priority is His individual relationship with each of us. God does love your wife, and does want her back.

And the good news - the fact that God wants her back is not necessarily contradictory with you being married to her.

Giving your wife fully over to God will probably be one of the hardest things you ever do. It is something that I have struggled with and still fail at. But as you know, God is in control, and if there's any way to bring her back, He can do it.

I will keep you and your family in my prayers. Mrs. MM may feel she's done with your marriage, but God isn't done with her yet.

***My wife a few days ago, when I was silent most of the evening, came to me later and said “See, this is what I am talking about. I came in to have you watch this one thing on TV about relationships…when I came to the ball field for our son’s practice, you barely spoke to me…you left without us deciding on dinner…how do you expect to build a relationship that way?”***

Well, to me this sounds like a woman is trying desperately to make some kind of connection with you. But then, I'm a girl, too.

***Well, folks…here’s the rub. First off, I didn’t know she wanted me to watch the show…she never told me until later. She came to the ball field in the middle of practice, and I am one of the coaches. When we were done with practice, the kids divided up in cars between me and her, and I told my oldest son to tell Mrs. MM to follow me and we will pick up dinner. Again…miscommunication!***

. . . but instead of finding a way to connect with her, you are posting excuses here for why you couldn't.

***But what I wanted to say is that this statement of hers was a ruse. She has field for divorce and has said she has every intention of getting away from me. So, would that evening last week have made a difference? Nope!***

Well, it's nice that you can both read her mind *and* see into the future.

It's pretty clear to me that if she filed for divorce, she did it in a desperate attempt to GET YOUR ATTENTION. Do you really not see that??

***She is still without repentance…she is still stuck on doing her own thing. All that statement was her making a justification to herself about what she is doing.***

This is also a justification for YOU not attempting to connect with her.

Feel free to put me on "Ignore" if you want, Mortarman, but I will give you my theory here as I see it:

Your WW is making desperate attempts to connect with you, no matter how clumsy or imperfect they may seem.

However, you keep ordering her not to connect with you but to go away and connect with God instead.

Okay.

Mulan

Thanks Mulan for posting. I did leave a lot out of the conversation, and what happened afterwards...so it may appear this way. I did come to her when she said this and explain to her that I didnt know that she wanted me to see the show, that I was silent at the field because I was coaching and a little busy with a bunch of 8 year olds. I explained that I had told our oldest son for her to follow me to dinner as he ran off to her car. I did tell her that I have and do desire that things be better and that we get on track again. Her response? "It doesnt matter." I spent the next two days trying to engage her, to see if she was in fact trying to reach out to me. Her response? Nothing. She just pulled away. So, I would have to disagree wtih you here because her actions continue to not match her words.


As I said above, I did attempt. As I have for the last few years. This has been the dance. She outlines some set of greivances she has. I try to make good on them and work on beign better at it. I try to engage her in working on these things together. I fix these things. And she...comes up with some more! In the meantime, she continues to do nothing on her end except add more demands. Nothing on her end of repentance or working on the marriage. Mulan, I knwo what you are saying...but in this case, the facts do not bear out your theory. Believe me... I WISH you were right!


Not reading her mind...watching her actions.


I wish that were true! But unfortunately, I believe she has filed in order to allow her to do whatever she wants. She filed because she wants to build her world in her image.


I did attempt to connect with her. As I have the last few years. And always, no effort on her part. Unfortunately. Just accusations and justifications.


I wouldnt IGNORE you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I really wish that what you are saying is true. And it has actually helped me check up on myself and see if I have done everything I should. But, unfortunately, the facts and her actions point to somethign else.


God is what she needs now. If she has a relationship with Jesus, then it will eb that which brings her back to herself. I have tried to connect with her. As I showed above with this latest situation. Not all of these folks say the things she said because they are reaching out. Many times, they are jsut trying to justify doing what they want to do. so, they keep giving themselves reasons to keep going down the wrong path.

In His arms.

I do understand this! That is what he meant also.


All good stuff BB. And I agree.

In His arms.

((((MM)))).

I truly hope you find peace. And I hope the same for your wife. I think she's hurting inside far more than anyone knows -- including herself.

--SC

MM:

For the most part, I agree with what you've said about what you believe 2 be the right thing 2 do about your M. So, I have little 2 add, only this:

Did you ever watch "The Waltons" on TV? Large VA family in the depression years. Most of them devout Christians, except for the H, played by Ralph Waite.

Fiction, yes. But I'm sure there are many such "unequally yoked" 2ples out there that are equally successful (and in reality, not all that unequally yoked when you get past the jargon and down 2 the spiri2al composition of the M'd individuals).

I guess what I'm still suggesting is that you keep your eyes peeled for any signs that there might be a way 2 connect with your W - all the while going forward with the DV.

Because detaching and letting go of her drama are healthy things 2 do, whether you're a believer or no. Letting her "find herself" or find her way back 2 God is the right thing 2 do, believer or no.

-ol' 2long
P.S. Was your friend really that redundant, repeat himself, say things over and over again as many times as you recounted in your 2uote above? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This I wholeheartedly agree with! Thanks SC!

In His arms.

Yeah he did repeat them 2Long. he did so for a reason! Remember, I said that he has been there all along. Up close and personal. he knows my wife. he knew her as we had children. He knew her in her walk, and in the good days. His wife was best friends with my wife before my wife dumped all of her friends for new ones after the affair started. So, they do know her. His repeating this over and over was to get me to understand and absorb that this is indeed what God is saying. Basically saying "Do you get it now?"

Rob had told me (and he was there in court with me a year ago when I got custody) right after court that I should expect my wife to try to get back with me. But that I should only do so once she gets help and shows "tears of repentance." It isnt just the tears...it is her actions. Actions that show that she was indeed serious about doing the right thing. Sadly, I did not set that boundary. And here we are.

Again, thanks for your support 2Long!

Oh yeah, and I only live two hours from Walton Mountain. House is still there. I understand what you are saying, 2Long. But I take God at His word. When a couple is unequally yoked, it is usually the believer that is pulled away from God because they want to concentrate on the marriage and the relationship. God says the relationship with his Son comes first...not the relationship with my wife, or my kids, or my family. I know that. I thought my wife did too.

In His arms.

Pep,

I dont get it either. She finally got what she wanted in the marriage...and now doesnt want it. Is this a female thing...or just THIS female??

In His arms.

MM,

I read and reread your post. I will say that I am relieved that you have finally come to the realizations that you have. You have done a marvelous job of both plan A, and yes plan B. You gave your W many chances, but you never gave her the chance she needed. She really needed to see that the door was open for her to leave. She really needed to see the toll all of this was taking on you and her family.

She really needed to see that she "won". She had ground you down until there was no more fight left. She needed to see you "humbled". She will now get to see all of this and perhaps a bit more. You can now tell her honestly that she "won". You are surrendering. And you have. You have finally given up trying to control this situation and "make" it like you would like it. You have shown great strength in doing this and truely admirable love in doing it.

BUT, you missed the message as you now see. It is not your W that had lessons to learn, it was you. You are finally learning them, and with the learning will come...PEACE.

What is so hard to explain to people here is that divorce is an option and it is an option that should be explored and even accepted. The plans here are do two things. ONe show the WS that there is hope, the marriage can be better and that there are tools that can make the marriage better if BOTH of the spouses will address the issues as a team. The other part of this site is to allow the marriage to die with the minimum of baggage and trauma. It comes with the BS knowing they did all they could do. It comes with plan B which helps the BS realize they can and will survive if the WS does not come back. It comes with the introspection that is required to work the plans. It comes with getting back to our core faith.

It has taken you 4 years, and you have finally come to where you need to be. She "won", but you will be at peace. While this is NOT the outcome you wanted, it very likely is the outcome you needed to move on and truely enjoy the rest of your life. You will be at peace at last. Your children will benefit, you will benefit, your next relationship will benefit, and oddly you have opened the door for your W to heal. It may be with you or without you, but she will be on her own now, no one to blame, no one to deflect the consequences of her actions...past, present or future.

I am glad it is finally come to you MM. Enjoy your peace.

God Bless,

JL

***I dont get it either. She finally got what she wanted in the marriage...and now doesnt want it.***

I don't think your wife has gotten what she wanted at all. You have put up a tremendous, unbreakable wall between the two of you, but it was your choice to do that and I don't think anyone is going to be able to talk you out of it.

***Is this a female thing...or just THIS female??***

Yes, Mortarman, it is a female thing to want her husband to put her first - and you have stated very, very plainly that you will NOT do this. Okay.

What does she want? She wants her husband. She wants you to drop everything and just be there for her -- just drop what you are doing whether it's a kid's ball practice, or a tv show, or talking to God, or anything else -- without putting any other conditions on her.

That's what she wants.

She wants you to tell her that she's good enough for you just as she is, but again, you have been very very clear that she is not. Okay.

I suspect, MM, that if you took her back and accepted her as the flawed human being that she is you could eventually lead her to God the way you want.

As long as you insist she must go find God first so that she will be good enough for Mortarman, she may well leave and find God on her own -- but you can be sure she will NEVER come back to you after she does.
Mulan

Mulan, you really don't understand what being a Christian means, do you? A Christian husband WILL put his wife ahead of all others, except for God. "Thou shalt have NO other gods before me," and that includes our spouse.

(((((Mortarman)))))

It is WHY God granted the faithful spouse the right to a divorce....adultery IS that serious and that difficult to overcome WITHOUT both husband and wife submitting to the LORD in humble obedience to His will.

I'm not "buying" the unevenly yoked part yet, though. From all that you've written previously, your wife did have a saving conversion some time ago. So now she would be backslidden, unless everything prior was actually faked.

Regardless, you need to take it to the next step, both for yourself and for her. IF she is backslidden, you can count on God reaching her. If not, then you will also know God's peace in that matter.

God bless.