I think I remember your situation. There are similarities.


I have to stop you here, because while your husband may have been very judgemental...for the most part, I have not done so. You see, I do not come before my wife in a spirit of moral superiority. Not at all. I know that at the foot of the Cross, the ground is level. We all have our struggles. We all fall short of where God wants us to be. The issue here is as ForeverHers put it...who is on the Throne in my life, and who is on the Throne in my wife's life. I submit to you that I endeavor everyday NOT to get my way! I try everyday to make sure that I do not supercede the Lord. It is His Throne, and He gets to call the shots. My wife is a different story. On her throne, is herself. She cares not for the command "If you love me you will keep my commands." She isnt just sinning, she is rebelling. That is ENTIRELY different! So, would my wife bend her knee to Christ (not Mortarman) and submit to His guidance and His love...then none of this would be an issue. the issue is she wants life to turn out in her image...not Christ's.


Aaahhh. It sounds as if he is the one not following Christ. A husband's FIRST ministry is his marriage and his family. And if he is lording over this holier-than-thou attitude, then he is definitely not acting on what Christ would tell him to do. I would question who exactly is it on his Throne.


I understand these feelings.


Again, sounds to me like Jesus has not been on the Throne in his life.


Very good. But the question is...what made yoru husband WANT to try to do this? What made you WANT to try to do this? You see, most days, I do not feel like loving my wife. I dont. But as a husband, I am commanded to. You said you couldnt say you love your husband back then. I have to be able to say that! I have to love her. It isnt a feeling, it is a choice. So I go back to this...that the two of you in some way made a CHOICE to commit to do the things that would save the marriage and would move you forward. Unlike the two of you, my wife has yet to do that. Were she to step forward in committment...then the end is pretty certain...a recovered marriage.


How di I decide to resolve anything? My wife filed a year ago. Then, she came back...and now has decided to file again. Where in that was my choice?


As do I. You are talking to the wrong person here. I dont have control over her filing. I dont have control over her being with the OM. I dont have control over her not working on the marriage by going to counseling, by talking and figuring this out, by bending her knee to Christ. I have no control over ANY of that.

And it is all of that (and more) which IS the reason we are headed where we are. God does not issue SUGGESTIONS...only COMMANDS. He does so out of love, as He knows best for us. I dont "feel" love for my wife. But I do love her, and I do act in a way most of the time (I have my moments) that is loving toward her. I love my wife, I continue to try to work with her and try to move forward, not because of who she is. I mean, we can list all day who she is right now...and much of it aint pretty nice. I do so because of who Jesus is in my life, and who she can become if she would jsut stop and listen to Him. And obey Him.

I am retired military. When the commanding general issues an order, it is NOT open to debate. You do it. Whether you "feel" it or not. It might result in your death. it might cause you a lot of anguish. That is of no matter. You do it! Why? Because he is the man in charge, he gets to call the shots. And ultimately, he knows mroe than you do and is making the best decisions for all involved.

We cannot have that kind of view of our lives. We have to trust Him when He says to do something. Trust that what He asks us to do will lead us to where we should be. That He will keep us under His wing.

I do now. In my life, for the first time, I trust the Lord in everything. The last 4 years brought me to that. Jesus earned the right to tell me what to do. He bought me with a price and that price was His own life. I have NO RIGHT to seat myself or anyone else on that throne. None!

So, I too am disappointed and hurt at where things are headed. But my wife has yet to do what God has commanded. He said for wives to submit to their husbands and to respect them. He said that all married peopel are NOT to commit adultery. He said that she has NO grounds for divorce.

And she aint listening!

Now tell me how that is my fault.

In His arms.

MM,

Odd how things work. I found this quote from you
And there was Pearl's post to you. I had already copied the quote to post to you, and was going to back of the line to post and Pearl has her post. It is a strange confluence. You may not realize but I do know JustJ personally. We have a mutual friend as well. It is truely a small world.

I would like you to reread your statement. It may be the truth, but it is wrong. You have no idea what God wants of her. You don't know what she would realize if she laid herself down at the feet of Jesus. It may be that the marriage is truely over. You are presuming to speak for God here and all you can truely do is do as God tells YOU to do.

Please understand I am not trying to rebuke your strong and well founded beliefs. I am trying to say what others here have stated in other ways. You do not KNOW how, when, or what God will say to your W. Your job is to be the best you can be (you like that quote right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) and allow things to work out as they will. When you reach this point, you will have the peace you seek.

That is my very humble opinion. Please reread Pearl's post to you, several times. Now is not the time for harshness, to claims of knowledge you (nor anyone else) has or will have.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I guess one cannot really DJ God, but you statement struck me as a DJ if you will.

MM:

I agree with pearl and JL here. It may very well be that you don't judge your W, but it might *feel* that way 2 her.

You live in a "fault" state. Are you countersuing for DV on grounds of adultery?

-ol' 2long

JL,

We are in agreement most of the time. But either we are not here, or I have not explained myself well enough.

God says "I hate divorce." God says "Thou shalt not commit adultery." God says there are certain reasons that a person can divorce and remarry. None of these are within the purview of my wife.

Someone once told me that if I am waiting on God to tell me to divorce my wife...that I will be waiting a long time. Because He NEVER will. He gives me the OPTION to divorce her. That would be my decision, my will. He has ALLOWED me to insert my will there. But it is NOT His will.

I surely do not know everything that God would tell my wife to do. But I do know what He would tell her concernign the things above.

Stop living in rebellion to Me.
Stop disrespecting your husband.
Stop commiting adultery.
Stop your divorce in man's court, because I do not recognize that divorce in My Court.

These are what God has stated in Scripture. As God says in Malachi..."I never change." He isnt going to change His mind about these things. Thus, I know he isnt going to tell my wife it is okay to divorce. He isnt going to tell her it is okay to shack up with the Troll. He just is not going to do that. If he did, that would make Him unholy. It is not possible.

I am the spiritual head of my home. The Lord to me as that leader. I am to be the pastor of my home, which means that I have to call things as God shows me and as Scripture outlines. My responsibility just isnt to myself. I am responsible for my wife and kids. I am responsible for the Christian upbringing of all of them.

My wife is living in rebellion to God. That is VERY evident! And as has been shown throughout history, rebellion to God has ALWAYS ended badly! Always had severe consequences. And thus it will be for her too, if she doesnt stop before it is too late. David lost 4 sons because of his rebellion. what will be the cost of my wife's?

Sure, when it is all doen and over...and if she bends her knee eventually...that she can be restored in fellowship with Jesus. but she will have lost so much by then...and she will have damaged so many people.

When all she had to do was do as her Savior and Lord commands. Whether she feels it or not.

I do hear the basics of JustJ and Pearl. I think that this mode of communication leaves some things out, as my posts may seem harsh and have an edge. I can assure you, I do not mean them to be. I do nto walk arounf calling my wife "******" or "sinner." I dont go around saying "repent or die." But, when she comes to me and says "I want a divorce..." then I say "neither I nor God are with you." And that would be a true statement.

Again, I dont lord thsi over my wife. But I will not back down from calling something wrong which is clearly wrong. God says he will not be mocked. Hebrews 10 is very specific about what happens to believers that want to rebel. Thus, I do know that things will get very bad for her. And by extension, that will be splattered on my kids and maybe even me.

In the Harley's SAA book, the reason the main couple got back together was because the OM decided the WW wasnt worth the hassle. So, for the sake of the kids, both the BH and WW decided to commit to doign the things that were outlined by the harleys, even though they werent feeling it. And one day, they woke up in love.

They submitted to the truth, even when they werent feeling it. And things ended up very well.

If she would only reach that point of humble submission to Christ and doing His will, then our marriage will be in His hands. But right now, she has taken the marriage from both me and Jesus. And she is doing with it as she wills.

Sorry if I didnt explain myself before. I hope this might clarify what I meant.

In His arms.

It may "feel" like that at times, 2Long. I admit to that. Not when we are working on things, or getting along. But I am sure it must feel like that when she says "I want a divorce" or I find out there has been contact. It is at those times that I do judge what she is doing.

Right now, things are no longer in court. The child support case was dismissed (because the judge cant issue child support rulings without being able to issue custody rulings, and we havent filed for divorce nor separated).

I do not intend to file on my wife. While God does give me the right to file, He does not want us to divorce. He hates divorce. Now, if she files eventually? Well, then yes...my lawyer will give it his all, if you know what I mean.

In His arms.

Man, I am totally confused.

D not actually filed by WW. Contact by WW with OM continues. WW barely civil. MM and family in turmoil. Life goes on…and on….and on….

What are you actually doing, MM? Debating scripture at this point is like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

You are sort of an MB icon, MM. I look up to you. Why are you not in Plan B? Why have you not called the MB counseling center?

And please don't tell me your situation is different.

Putting my IR goggles on and seeing through all the dust and smoke in the air on this thread leaves me with one and only one afterimage: Your WW is a typical fogbound, self-centered, entitled adulterer. Nothing more, nothing less.

There are tried and true methods to deal with this A. Even for LTA’s with lingering contact.

Turning her over to God is good. I did the same in my situation. But I was still required to work my buns off and stick to the plan. Through broken NC, threats of D, custody threats, more lies than truth, you name it I went through it. God has always been with us. But He requires I more than just be there - I have to work hard too.

I’m am so confused…

I dunno, MM. Seems to me, either work the (God-given) MB plans or get out entirely.

With prayers,

Thank-you Aphelion.

I totally agree with your post.

MM is such a hero to me that, to be honest, that I felt it would be disrespectful to say exactly what you said.

I debate that here, Alph. There is no debate at home.


I am in counseling concerning this. And I am in a Plan B, of sorts...as we are still living under the same roof. I know the dynamics, Alph. I know what I should be doing...and I am doing those things. I guess i have not said what the specifics of what I am doing are.


Of course not!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


All true.


All true...and I am doing them.


I havent abandoned the situation. As I said, I have not eluded to what I have been doing. Maybe I should on here. I am somewhat reticent to do so, as there are developments with my wife in which she is talking to a FWW on here who is tryign to guide her. So, it may be she might wander over here. So, I am a little reluctant to get into specifics right now.


Dont be. I have not abandoned MB, or what I am supposed to be doing. Trust me...I am doing those things. The thing that is different now is that I really want a resolution to this now. I want either direction...just so long as we get moving.


Trust me...I am working them. But I am also preparing to get out. Right now, there are NO more discussions goign on with my wife. I am nto filling one EN of hers right now. The only talk is concerning the kids. And that is brief and to the point. She tried last night to strike up a conversation with me. Not gonna do that. I cant claim a full Plan B, because we are still in the same house. But I have drawn the line here. She has seen the grace and love that I have given her. She has enough information now to make a decision. I dont need to Plan A any longer. So, I am doing the principles as outlined.

I am STILL on mission, folks!

In His arms.

Mortarman,

It is interesting for me to read your reply to my post because you sound so much like my H. If he were here posting he would insist that he never lords over me, is never judgmental, etc., and if there ever was anyone who is comfortable and confident in his walk with Christ it is he. And I want to be clear that I don't question that. I'm just relating that my experience of his expressions of faith does not necessarily match up with his.

But your post reminds me of the most important thing that I forgot to say in my original post. For the first two years of our recovery, I could recite line by line everything that my H had done wrong (kind of like I did in my previous post!), and every way in which I had met all of his needs but he did not reciprocate. To say I was blind to my own contribution to the state of our marriage was an understatement. I could not see it AT ALL. I can SO relate to your asking where it is your fault. I was willing to take NONE of the blame, NONE. I truly believed that I had spent 10 years being the "perfect" wife and this was the thanks I got. Even in recovery, I thought I was the only one doing the heavy lifting.

It wasn't until I took on a new approach to compassion that I was able to get a glimpse of how I occurred for my H. How my blaming him and inability to stem the resentment made it impossible for him to make amends for what he had done, and made it impossible for our marriage to heal. I can feel all the way to my toes how blameless you feel in your situation because I was right there with you. But when I could finally get around that and really truly take on responsibility for how I was triggering his deepest hurts, that was the only way we could really recover.

I'm not trying to make you wrong or to blame you or to say any of this is your fault. That is really not my intention at all, I hope you can see that.

I understand. And I dont want to say the word "NEVER" because I know I have been guilty at times of this. But it is not the norm, and I really do not want to be that way. My wife said once that I was trying to manipulate her back. And that may be the way she feels, but it isnt what I am doing. I dont want her back except that she wants to be here. I dotn want her back, if she isnt going to bend her knee to Jesus and do as he asks. I dont. I want a Christian wife who is interested in Jesus first. If my wife can no longer be that...then I would rather not be married to her.


Pearl, fortunately, this I havent done. If you go back and read my threads since 1992, you will see that I do know where I have contributed to this. I do know it takes two for a marriage to get to this point. My saying "where is it my fault" is the fact that the marriage is headed to divorce court, and none of those actions did I do. I didnt file. it is the same as the affair. The affair is 100% the fault and responsibility of the WS. But, the BS needs to understand where they helped create the conditions that allowed the WS to screw up. I do understand and have accepted responsibility for this. You have no idea how much I beat myself up over my failings...and for leaving for Bosnia Sept 2001 and leaving my shakey marriage open to the Troll.


Sorry...I do NOT feel blameless. Go back and read my threads. many times, posters on here would admonish me for taking too much blame! I know my part in this. I know my faults. My argument during this thread has been the difference between my wife and I. I have accepted my responsibility and am willing to work o nthat and to save the marriage. For 4 years, she has been unwilling to do that. THAT is the difference!


I understand what you are saying. But please understand, I am not like what you describe your husband was. I know my faults. I do not condemn my wife. But everytime she goes to the OM or everytime she goes to the courthouse...she is absolutely, 100% wrong. And I have no part in that. And for me to say that to her when she wants me to help her end the marriage is not bad.

It is reality.

In His arms.

I am truly sorry, MM, but it's not your wife who is the danger to your marriage right now.

It's you.

There is no such thing as a modified Plan B. You know that. What you're doing is not Plan B. It's just the silent treatment.

Repeat Dr. Harley's words after me, please: "The silent treatment is ALWAYS abusive."

And even if you don't see it, there are many, many folks on this thread who have gently pointed out that every word you say about your wife's spiritual journey is an incredibly disrespectful judgment.

I don't know how to integrate that with your spiritual beliefs. I -do- know that deeply religious people (I'm thinking of Pearl's husband and Still Seeking in particular, here) have managed not to make the mistake that you make every single moment that you talk or think about your wife this way.

It, too, harms your marriage and your wife, even if your wife -never- hears a word of it. Your words here reflect your thoughts all the time and that comes through whether you say it out loud or not.

Last coherent though in my current jumble: Where are you supporting your wife's spiritual growth, MM? All I hear and see and read is that you're pissed off and want her to grovel in front of Jesus the way you think everyone should. Submission is -- must be -- a freely and lovingly given gift. If it's less than that, then it is slavery.

You're not asking your wife to submit. You're trying to force her into slavery. Whether that's at your side or not, it's still wrong.

I understand. JustJ...I have nothign to converse with her about. I have no interest in talking to her. I have no interest in acting like things are hunky-dorey. I am not being silent because I am mad at her. I am silent because I truly have nothign to say to her. I respond to her questions and statements. I tell her stuff concerning the kids and house, etc. Besides that...I have nothing to say. That is NOT abusive.


You're right...I dont get it. It is not a DJ to call divorce wrong. It is not a DJ to call her relationship with the Troll wrong. It is not a DJ to, as the spiritual head of my household, to point out that she is in fact, not following the Lord she professes to believe in. Those are NOT DJs.


Yes, she knows how I feel. As I said, these statements and feelings have materialized when she wanted to file and I realized the Troll was still around. The last year, I gave her the benefit-of-the-doubt. I blindly began to try to work with her and move forward. And met rejection after rejection. There wasnt any talk of any of this. I wasnt even thinking about that. I was jsut workign my butt off and hoping that with effort and time, she would come around. She never did! And 2Long is probably right...because contact with the Troll probably never ended. Please do not confuse the way I am now and the way things are now with the way things were durign our false recovery. They are different.


I am a bond slave of my Lord Jesus Christ. I no longer own myself. No true Christian owns themselves anymore. When we asked Jesus into our lives, we said that we were surrendering. That Jesus gets the Throne. Which means, ANY way but His way is the WRONG way! All the time! I do not grovel at the feet of Jesus. I remain, in His arms.

When I talk of being at the feet of Jesus, I am talking about a position. He is Lord. We are lesser than Him. We have no right to disobey. We do...and it is His grace that keeps us in fellowhip with Him (He has every right to destroy all of us...but He doesnt due to love).

How am I supporting my wife's spiritual growth? By pointing her to Jesus. By always pointing her to Jesus. He is the Truth. He can cleanse her. He can help her. He is the one she has rebelled against, not me. She has hurt Him far more than she has hurt me. I am second to Him in her life. I point her to Him. I do so in the fact that I have asked her to go to counseling...and she hasnt. I have asked her to go to the pastor...and she wont. I have asked her to do Bible study and prayer with me...and she wont. I have asked her to just spend time with me, and she wont. You see, for her, there is a wall there that she has put up. I have tried to get around it in so many ways. I have now decided to just sit down and turn it over to Jesus.


Not trying to enforce slavery. Where do you get that? Have you read the link at the bottom of my post? Do you understand what God requires from husbands and wives?

As I said, do you think I "feel" love for my wife right now? No, I do not! Do I love my wife right now? Absolutely. I choose to love her. I choose to love her because of so many reasons (our kids, our former love together, etc). But most of all, it is because the Man that sits on my Throne in my life says I MUST love her. He doesnt command my wife to love me, just to respect and submit. I am commanded to love her as He loves us. And that means to die for her.

We are all slaves of someone. We all either serve Jesus or satan. We cannot get around that. We want to as humans to elevate ourselves to the level of God and think we get to call the shots in our lives. That we make life into our image. And we sadly wake up one day and find out that it was all a lie.

My wife used to know this. It was her that said these things throughout the early part of our marriage. it is why so many that were around her then call her a hypocrite now.

As I said, I am venting here. But please understand...I knwo I am NOT in Plan B. I am not in Plan A. I am in stand by. Standing by to see where she takes things from here. She is no longer allowed to sit on the fence. Her fence sitting has come to an end.

While I love her and want her to repent and to move forward...at this time, I do not care which side of the fence she drops on...only that she gets off the fence. Do not read into this that I dont care for my wife or marriage. I am saying that her dropping on the other side is no longer my concern. My concern now is that is she is going to continue down her path, then it is time that she meet the consequences of her actions.

Four years is enough.

In His arms.

MM is not the first BS on this site to be headed for divorce due to a decision by the WS. (ETA: there is always hope D won't happen in MM's case)

I've never before seen a BS taken so to task for his WS's filing for D. Religious beliefs aside, I think we can say that MM has done an admirable job of trying to recover his M. His W had an A, continues contact with OM, has never given 100% to recovery efforts, and has filed for divorce.

If not now, exactly WHEN can MM let go? In MY opinion, now....if he feels ready. Had MM not mentioned his religious beliefs in his postings, would the advice he's received here be different. Likely so. From the MB perspective, it seems that MM has done all he could do....why not treat him as we do other MB members who have divorce pushed on them?

And the truth is, we don't really know what his wife is feeling or thinking, so conjecture or projection of our own past feelings isn't very productive for advising MM, IMO.

I'm sure I haven't put my thoughts together very well....Sorry if this sounds dis-jointed and confusing.

At Peace,

I concur. MM deserves "peace". Very appropriate you showed up.

********edited out***********

I presume you all are sincerely trying to be helpful. Perhaps another angle here or there, another magical stone to uncover which will flip this situation for our beloved brother; but, MM has clearly and repeatedly indicated that God HAS spoken to him and bestowed peace upon him. Why can't we allow him the peace he's already more than earned. Is he to refuse His gift? My conclusion, it's more than time for the God angle.

No harshness intended, only concern. I am not trying to blow this thread up, nor make accusations of intent. This will be my final statement on this thread so there is no need to respond.

I know it's distressful to perceive a MB hero fallen here; however, I believe, no I KNOW him to still be a huge MB success and MB superhero. The fight DOES continue, MM has merely been benched, as the "game" goes on without his direct participation. I have zero doubt MM will do as directed, with dignity, integrity and honor.

Peace,

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- I ask that no one copy and paste my entire post as I will be editing out ****************

MM,

I think you are missing my point. Perhaps you are not. Let me use your statements to see if I can make myself clearer.

You said
I beg to differ MM. They are definitely in the perview of your W. She was allowed to do them and she did. She cannot undo them either. Has it crossed you mind that there might be a plan for her and for you?? We are permitted to sin and we often do. That is why forgiveness is a major part of the Christian ethic.


So although you are saved you are going to exercise your will because you are permitted to. Your W exercised her will as well. Again because you are given free will. Her turning back to religion does not mean she will exercise HER WILL to remain in the marriage. If you believe there is a plan and if you believe we all are or can be sinners, then you must acknowledge that her beliefs changing does not automatically mean your marriage will be saved or that it fits with God's plan, whatever that may be.


Again with all due respect, I don't think you have a clue what God would say to her. You don't know the plan, you don't know what she will be called to learn and face. You don't know the tests that await her, even if she turns back toward her religious roots.


She knows she should stop but as you said if he gives her free will God it is pure speculation on your part that such a message would be given. If there is no free will, then you must face that she is acting according to a plan.

Whether she respects you or not, she is supposed to put God before you. She will simply reap her "reward" depending on how she treats you.

That has already been said to her via the Bible, her family, you, counselors, clergymen. She did not get the memo. How do you know that God was not speaking to her via one or more of the people above. The message could NOT be clearer. B

A little inconsistent here my friend. You are ALLOWED to divorce according to the scripture, thus this last statement is not true.


And if God gave her free will God is not going to tell her not to do these things other than through the scripture. You are hoping and waiting for something that will not happen. Don't you see, this is HER path to walk. These are going to be HER lessons to learn, and this will be allowed for the very reasons you have stated.


Again, MM you are not responsible for their decisions because as you stated they were granted free will just as you were. You are to be the role model for your family. You are to do your best to protect them. But, you are not allowed to think for them, nor are you allowed to believe for them. You must remember a common dictum " responsibility without authority is not possible". You do not have the authority to be her God, therefore you don't have the responsibility to do so either.

I think you know and understand this fully.


Not your problem MM. It really is not your problem, that is the point of what I said earlier. You can pray for her, you can hope she finally sees and seeks guidance. You can do your best to take care of HER children because they are HERS as well as YOURS, but you cannot speak for God in these manners. IF you truely have turned your life over to God, you then must know that YOU have no control of this save through your own actions and prayers. THis is truely NOT YOUR PROBLEM.


True, but it is not your problem. Your job is to follow your beliefs, be a good father, a good man, and a good human being. That is what YOU are called to do isn't it? The damage to your life and your children's lives is really up to you and them. You are struggling mightily with this, but the message is that this is NOT YOUR PROBLEM. Take care of you and your children. Let your W and God face the world for that is the way of things MM.


No that was not all that would have had to happen for your marriage to be saved. That step was necessary but it was not all that had to happen, and perhaps will happen. Have you considered how and why you are being tested with all of this? Has it crossed your mind that even now you are being tested? You are still acting like this is YOUR problem, but it is not and deep down you know it. Learn from this MM.


But, MM if your posts sound like that to Pearl and JustJ and sometimes to me, imagine how your words sound to your W who is and has clearly struggled with this. She knows she is wrong, she is justifying as much as she can but the weight of the truth is there and it makes her very attuned to you. And you do sound as you described that is the point. My belief is one of the reasons you do, is that you have not truely turned this over to God yet. You are still trying to fix a problem that is NOT YOUR PROBLEM now.


So you are worried about you and the kids not really her is that right? Then quit pointing out what she already knows. If the biblical passages come true, then she will have a hard life, this is NOT your decision or responsibility. If you fear the "splash" get right with your religion, raise your children to have compassion, forgiveness, and a path to follow. It is all you can do.

Having kids much older than yours I can assure you that you will have an affect on their lives, but you will not be able to guide their lives. Trust me on that one.


ANd what does this have to do with your situation??? Nothing. It is her decision to make, it is her live to lead, and it will be her that has to answer for her decisions. You cannot do anything about this. You can only be you, live your life according to your beliefs, and try to be the best human being you can. You are not called to be her God, or to speak for God. She knows as well as you what is in the Bible and the commandments. She has chosen of her free will to not pay attention. NOT YOUR PROBLEM, give up trying to fix it.

Does this make sense MM? I hope so. I truely believe that you must realize that whether you intend to or not you come across as lecturing and preaching to your W. It is time to "respect" that she does have free will, she can and will sin, and that ultimately she will pay a price for it. You will also learn that you cannot protect your children from the world either. It is years off yet, but man that is a hard lesson to learn as well. Trust me on that.

God Bless,

JL

First -
J,
I am human, and I make the same mistakes as everyone else.
Please don't hold me up like that, without talking to my W first. (grin)

second -
We are dealing with MM's feelings. (or one of the things we are dealing with are his feelings.

Feelings are feelings.

third -
Mortarman has limits

You are talking to flesh and blood. Perhaps we expect a lot from him, after all, look what he has done.

Perhaps it's time for a rest. Maybe he needs one, maybe not. I wonder if I could do as well as he has done.

Perhaps we can remember the things he has done right, and leave off about the rest for a while, lest he become weary, and faint in the way.


Oh, and Hi MM, how's it goin?
You got any smiles left?

SS

Thank you, JL. Just... thank you.

MM, what JL is saying is exactly right. And when you take it on as YOUR PROBLEM, then you try to reassert control over a situation where you have no control. That is manifesting as the rigidity, venting, ranting, and abusive behaviors that you're currently displaying, and which cause me (and others) such tremendous concern.

If you accept that you have absolutely no control over the situation (and JL is right about the level of control you do have), I suspect you will relax a great deal.

And that, I suspect, will lead to you finding whole lot more compassion than you're currently showing. I am as worried about your lack of compassion for your wife (the "I don't care which side of the fence she falls on" stuff) as about anything else you've posted. Even if you divorce and move on, it's important to care. You just have to care without control. That's hard to do.

Finding that place of compassion, peace, and calm may also allow you to deal with your very real and very necessary grief over the mess you have in place of the life you once thought you were going to have. I suspect there is a river of tears to be cried, even beyond the ones that you've already cried.



Mr. Wondering, you should know that your copyright applies to everything you write. If you request that your comments about Mrs. MM's attorney and the potential uses of this thread not be copied or pasted, that should be respected.

*chuckle*

Still Seeking, your approach is always wise. Of course, I'm not supposed to hold you up as an example without checking with your wife, which makes it difficult to both respect your wishes and note what I've observed in several years of reading your stuff. But if you really want me to and you give me her e-mail address, I'll check with your wife before the -next- time I compliment you, okay?

But I've never seen you mention your wife in anything other than respectful, loving terms. Ever. I know that you learned to do that -- you've talked about that journey.

Okay, the time after this one I'll check with your wife. Promise. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JustJ - please allow me to respectfully disagree with your dogmatic statement. In at least one case that I know of, my own, a modified Plan B WAS the answer and the foundation to my wife deciding to end her affair and attempt Recovery of our marriage.




Since I only check in on this thread periodically, I may have missed something. But just how, JustJ, is MM being "incredibly disrespectful" in what he has said concerning his wife?

She is an adulteress. She wants a divorce. Etc. On a "scale of judgments," I guess I would be tempted to rank her "judgments" as much more disrespectful than anything MM has said.




Talk about disrespectful judgments and gross mischaracterization of "submission to the Lord!"

Yes, JustJ, believers DO need to make the choice to humbly submit their will to the Lord's will, no matter what they may be feeling. I am in agreement with you up to this point.

But, "Submission is -- must be -- a freely and lovingly given gift," is the beginning of where we would disagree. Humble submission to the one who is Sovereign and who sits on the throne of our life AS our Lord and Sovereign, to say nothing of His being our Savior, is NOT a "GIFT" we give to God....it is an expected response by all believers to what God has done for us, not as some "gift" to Him. In short, it's an expected requirement that is DUE to our Sovereign. HE gives US gifts, not the other way around. That is just plain bad Theology, imho, in an attempt support your contention that MM has shown "disrespectful judgments" towards his wife.

Just as we are to "submit" to authorities, in Christ, a wife is to submit to her husband's spiritual leadership in the home that is consistant with God's will. Submitting our will to God's will IS "God's will" for us, as even Jesus demonstrated in the Garden of Gethsemene. To "expect" a fellow professing believer to "submit to God" IS what one expects when confronting sin. THAT is the purpose of Matthew 18:15-20.

So, when MM "expects" a remorseful response that is shown through submission to God, what is "disrespectful" about that?

God bless.

Hi FH! You might want to re-read Harley's definitions and information regarding disrespectful judgments. I posted them earlier on this thread, and they still apply to MM's more recent comments.

As for Mrs. MM, well, it's not a competition. And I seem to recall you and MM talking about how all sins are the same in God's eyes? Given that, pointing the finger at her in order to take the focus off of MM's actions is probably not a good idea. In fact, that's one of the things I've been asking MM to do, and it's what JL said, too.

Whether submission is to be a loving gift or an expected requirement, it is an act of free will. To try to force someone else to do it is enslavement. If MM has chosen to become a slave to God, that is, again, his free will choice -- and one that he can unmake at any time. It certainly is a choice that has consequences, but he's still free to make it.

Similarly, if Mrs. MM chooses not to engage in that submission, that is her choice. To try to force her to -- through the methods that MM has tried to use -- is both ineffective and harmful.