tj: happy birhday Mr. W

He also stated that one time cheaters are addicted to a PERSON, whereas a serial cheater is addicted to AFFAIRS. And that they should be handled like any other addiction.

He said it is not necessarily a character problem. Is the sc also robs banks and does other immoral things, then it probably IS a character problem. If cheating is the ONLY THING he does bad, then it likely is not.

Kind of a GLOBAL, no contact approach. The recovered serial cheater couple should POJA and find a way for the WS to forever and for life spend 100% of time separate from betrayed spouse with ONLY members of the same sex (unless it's a same sex affair obviously).

Opposite sex interaction is limited to only time together.

Mr. W

I can add my own perspective with the serial cheater. It's a matter of approaching a plan EYES WIDE OPEN. The serial cheater is prone to slips, which has been proven in the past. So any plan put in place must recognize slips are prone to happen, they must be acted upon quickly and without hesitation. There is no time to wait and let's see what we can do about this. I think that is the big difference with plans for a serial cheater.

And BTW Melody, great radio voice!

***He also stated that one time cheaters are addicted to a PERSON, whereas a serial cheater is addicted to AFFAIRS. And that they should be handled like any other addiction.***

Now, that makes sense. Glad you called and asked.

And I guess the trouble is that the serial cheater will treat their spouse like just one more affair, don't they? That's the way I've felt with WH for a long time - just one more face in the crowd.

I think another name for "serial cheater" is "player." It's really the same thing. Just because one of the people being played happens to be their spouse makes no difference to them at all. They're addicted to the attention that an affair - any affair - can give them, just as Harley said.

***He said it is not necessarily a character problem. Is the sc also robs banks and does other immoral things, then it probably IS a character problem. If cheating is the ONLY THING he does bad, then it likely is not.***

That seems to make sense, too. WH doesn't do anything else illegal or unethical that I know of - he's just so massivly addicted to female attention that he'll destroy anything in his way to get to it, including his own family. But addicts often destroy their families, don't they?

Thanks again.
Mulan

Mel!! Bummer!!! I completely missed this. I'm in Texas too....do you have a station down here that carries the show...or do you have to listen through the computer?

So how did you feel about the response? Was it what you expected?

I've always told people that multiple affairs or recontact with a past affair requires a hefty "upping" of the ante!! Few folks follow through with that because it means complete and transparent accountability after repeat performances and their worried that if they ask for what is necessary to really protect their marriage....that the multi-cheater will just leave. For myself....I'd rather lose this kind of a spouse that live with fear and anxiety because they are unwilling to put up appropriate (GLOBAL) boundaries that will protect the marriage.

Increase risk for the BS translates to a increase accountability for the WS....it's a natural consequence. If they balk....then they aren't really committed to the marriage OR overcoming their weakness.

My H was a repeat offender. The conditions that I set for reconciliation were pretty brutal....but he stayed and has become a man that I feel "reasonably" comfortable with trusting. I'll never have blind trust again....it's stupid anyway....but especially with this man. I wish I didn't have those small kernels of doubt.....but it's the price for keeping my family together and my H has worked hard to show consistency and ethics since the last incident. Having said that.....if there is a recurrence, and I know people ALWAYS say this, but I do mean it....he will SO VERY GONE (and poor). I am SO OVER living with this fear. Screw that!! I have zero doubt that I'll thrive without him....and if I hadn't had this last late baby....I probably wouldn't have given him the second chance that I did.

I tend to agree that it IS a character flaw....so as part of my "conditions" I required that he confess to his priest since he is catholic, and that he is active in his church, and does community service to raise his consciousness, spirituality and ethics. He HAS grown his character....and he is a better man because of it. As a side note....the priest would NOT absolve him until he went through a whole process to atone.....I could just KISS that man!!

Unfortunately, who doesn't have character flaws?

A character flaw is a limitation, imperfection, problem, phobia, or deficiency present in a character who may be otherwise very functional. The flaw can be either a problem that directly affects the character's actions and abilities, such as a missing arm or a violent temper. Alternatively, it can be a simple foible or personality defect, which effects the character's motives and social interactions, but little else.

Flaws can add depth and humanity to the characters of a narrative. For example, the sheriff with a gambling addiction, or the action hero who is afraid of heights, or a lead in a romantic comedy who must overcome his insecurity regarding male pattern baldness are all characters whose flaws help provide dimension. Perhaps the most widely cited and classic of character flaws is Achilles' famous heel.

I could have written much of what you wrote, Star*fish.

My husband, had 3 PA's over our 31 yrs together, if I can trust that he has been radically honest that there weren't more (I've had my doubts based on hindsight analysis of behavior at different times in the past).

He was more than willing and has been consistent since the last A, with enforcing his boundaries as far as contact with women.

He worked at a temporary job in an big office environment, 2.5 hours from home for 5 months until February. He is normally a self-employed contractor. I was a bit apprehensive at first. He did an excellent job of reassuring me of his commitment to us and maintaining his boundaries. Had it been before MB etc. recovery, I think the temptations of the opportunities that environment could afford would have been very difficult for him.

I do believe that a person can change and be faithful even after having multiple A's. They may have 2 or 3 A's but didn't have MB or any therapy so they didn't learn any tools to facilitate real change. Then, subsequently, learning the dynamics of A's, and using tools like MB techniques etc., they can transform their behavior to avoid future A's or inappropriate relationships.

Ask me,

I agree that we all have character flaws....and this is a particularly destructive one. I'm not sure "fear of baldness" even comes close to comparison LOL!. That doesn't mean someone with flaws is irredeemable....anymore than I am "lost" for eternity because of my own flaws. Yes....the "anti-hero" with his "imperfections" is often far more attractive than the "hero". I'll take Hans Solo over Luke Skywalker any day....but I'll be realistic about it...yanno? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Interesting topic. I think that it can be both an addiction to affairs and the person. The relationship with the OP is still fantasy, OP is perfect, BS is to blame for all ills, including world hunger. I guess it is similar to any other addiction where the actions are the addiction, as well as the "drug" of choice.

I agree that it is a character flaw. While all of us humans have flaws, to rise to a character flaw is more serious, IMO. It takes more effort to overcome then say, being late all the time. A's IMO require someone who is selfish and self-serving. While we all have flaws and make mistakes, these are attributed to a WS.

My fear is that once a serial cheater, always one, unless great effort is taken. It could be my fears playing on me, but one burned, twice burned, you become hesitant to put yourself out there again and trust.

Sounds like you have alot of experience with this! l listen to him on the computer usually. I am with you, the ante raises with serial cheaters. I know that I do not have the make up to deal with a serial cheater and would pass.

I thought he made a good point about the character issue, but what I am confused about is the APPROACH one uses towards a serial cheater. Obviously, a sc has to have a serious committment to CHANGE their personality if marital recovery is to take place. That is not the case with one time cheaters, I don't believe!

That was the point on which I needed clarfication and he had to end my call too quickly. I thought it was also interesting that he said that serial cheaters are anti-social personalities who don't usually marry!

Thanks Askme. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well mine married three times, possibly four and he is only 44 years old now.

What I gathered was that he was only married for the good, and the bad made him find the affair which would help him bow out of that particular marriage.

I also now believe that during the "good" times of the marriages he also had little mini affairs.

He was also not in any way anti- social...he was actually way more socially skilled than me and has many people who think he's the cats meow, including his children.

He also never takes blame.

My opinions/gatherings change though as I become more and more out of my own fog, and remember or more acurately access different aspects of the whole.

And then I guess there are always the exception to the rule, and he may have been that.

Yes, he was speaking in generalities. My father was also a serial cheater who was married and divorced 8 times, with numerous affairs in between. His "current" girlfriend who showed at his funeral turned out to be his 35 year mistress.

I don't believe he was addicted to affairs, though, but simply was amoral. He did not know right from wrong and felt entitled to make up the rules as he went along. His was definitely a character problem that effected other areas of his life.

Something that someone pointed out..which I have observed personally..is that serial cheaters..don't seem to really distinguish between the "marriage" relationship and any other "dating" relationship.

Most that I have encountered do not seem to require a sense of antipathy toward the spouse ..it seems the spouse is not considered at all.

One notable example is a fellow that I work with..he has a wife..[separated but nothing has been filed] a recently former girlfriend..and someone ELSE in his back pocket who he just didn't get around to dating before "hooking up" with his recent "ex"...she was always in the equation though..not to mention that there are several MORE women who have at least caught his eye that he has mentioned in passing that he might be interested in dating at some future time.

Serial cheaters never seem to *finish* anything. I always get the impression that for them..time just sort of caves in on itself..everything is open ended and all the balls are eternally in the air.

Makes me tired just thinking about it.

Unfortunately..most people do not marry with an "eyes open" attitude..and are not honest about their expectations in marriage..perhaps not even AWARE of them enough to be honest.

now this I know about!

I believe it is a serious serious serious character flaw. something that I am not willing any more to tolerate in an individual. not even little "slips". If I feel now, in dating that a guy is less than 100 percent up front with me, he is handed walking papers on the get go.

my xh? serial cheater extroidinaire!

and noodle is right! he cannot finish what he starts...incidentally, MY XH IS ADDHD...I WONDER HOW MANY OF THESE SERIAL CHEATERS HAVE THIS ISSUE? This might actually explain a bit to me...the whole unable to tell time and from when one relationship meshes into another one without ENDING ANYTHING PROPERLY.

and yes, my xh has narcissistic/sociopathic tendencies.

It takes one helluva WS to totally ignore the feelings of their BS whom feelings they trampled upon. My xh never felt a thing. Can't. HE IS UNABLE. not wired to do so.

it's all about darth darth darth. I thought and believed for years he needed intense therapy...but he think's he was wonderful as is....

I WILL NEVER SPEND ONE MINUTE WITH SOMEBODY IF I THINK I HAVE TO FOREVER WATCH MY STEP, MY BACK, AND HAVE TO WONDER IF MY SIG OTHER WILL CHEAT. life is too darn short!

I'd say most of them are narcissitic people with very much socio tendencies...and to make my ws worse? I think his addhd feeds the whole picture. BUT I MAKE NO EXCUSES FOR HIM AND AM HAPPILY A SINGLE GIRL NOW. HIS WISTRESS CAN DEAL WITH HIS AFFAIRS NOW.

Just Peachy,

My WH has ADD, but I don't think of him as anti-social, just the opposite in fact. I also think a component of a serial cheater is the capacity to not only lie about A related 'stuff, but about everything. My WH does this and doesn't feel like it is wrong, due to his up-bringing. His mom and sisters and himself lie for any and all reasons, without remorse. Make jokes out of it actually.

Perhaps serial cheaters are A-moral.

My H had at least 7 A's over 10 years, 2 x ONS, 1 x 2 week A, 1 x 3 - 4 week A, & 3 x 15+ month A's. All but 2 of these were away from home. He indulged whilst on business or fishing trips. The 3 week one & 2 x 15 month ones. She used to ring him & he would return her calls & visit her when he was away. Even bought her a $500 braclet. But the one that made him realise who he had become was the one he was having at the same time with my G/F. Because she is a neighbour & visited almost every day, he felt smothered by her. He then had guilt about her H, who is a really nice guy & he now knows. H says they had decided to end it & work on their respective M when I found out. Now there is very limited contact, usually at street functions, we are a very friendly street, only 8 houses, where we try to avoid each other.

H was really great for 2 years, very attentive, going out etc, but lately he has changed again. No, I know he is not having an A, but his attitude towards me has changed. He is becoming very selfish again. Stopped spending quality time with me. Wants to go fishing every avilable time he can with a mate. This has huge warning bells for me, as he used to go away alot with mates who ALL cheat on their wives, & then he started doing the same.

How do I get him to re engage in our M AGAIN? Any suggestions would be appreciated as I am now starting to feel that I want to move on myself. I am tired of this dreadful ache in my system all the time. This is not good.


Eyes Opened

*I* have ADD..and am not a serial cheat..or any other variety of cheat. [winks]

However...It cannot be said to be coincidence that a great many people who cheat..or engage in other types of "out of bounds" behavior..criminal included..have ADD/ADHD.

There are a lot of reasons why..poor impulse control..disconnection from others...these are ADD/ADHD traits that I don't personally struggle with..and are MORE associated with ADHD type, no one knows why...yet.

I think that there is probably a link..but I don't think it is the WHOLE explanation.

Well, nutz...I'm more confused than ever. So, if the WS is a serial cheater, you can apply MB principles but you have to use a "global" approach? What does that mean exactly?

Also, the only thing I see discussed so far is the case when the WS is remorseful. What if the WS is completely unrepentent? Do MB precepts work then? Is it just a matter of more Plan A'ing, and then more NC letters to be sent?