Adrift,

You continue to not answer my questions and just bring up what HE did. You say
So are you saying to us, that if you don't feel loved and appreciated then it is OK for you to have affairs? Are you saying that from your perspective that if you feel down or uncertain, then the boundary of fidelity is no long in play?

Where do you stand on this Adrift? What are your internal moral and philosophical boundaries and guidelines? You really need to think about this.

Adrift you say
Being willing is not the same thing as sitting down reviewing where you are, what YOU feel is the correct thing to do, and then do it. You are going to feel insecure, so is he? This type of situation pretty takes care of any feelings of security. What is YOUR plan, why are you waiting for your H? You need to sort out what you feel is right in your mind and make plans.

And finally you say
That is why I said see a counselor. We here will support you, oddly your H may well support you. But, in order to get support you must have a plan. When the plan is being decided upon we can offer advise and support. When the plan is being acted upon we can advise and support. But, you must have something for us to support. YOU must look inside and decide what needs to be work on. You must come up with a plan for YOUR healing.

This is why we are NOT focusing on what your H did or did not do. If he posts and asks for help he will get it, but he will need to have a plan as well. First step in his plan is the same as the first step in your plan. You both have to decide if YOU want the marriage. If you do, we will help. If he does we will help. If you both do, then it will be easier.

You need to tell us YOUR boundaries, and why you felt that having an affair was the correct way to handle the issues in your marriage. Please think about this and then we can talk some more.

God Bless,

JL

No, I was not avoiding questions and dodging. I was just feeling persecuted and wanted to tell my side. I didn't need to be reminded of what a bad person I am. I am well aware of this. Now I know my side is irrelevent so I won't discuss it again.


No, I was saying I was weak. It is unacceptable. That's why I felt horrible after the fact. If I thought it were Ok, I would have continued and never felt the guilt. I would never even have confessed. I do not think it's Ok. I just couldn't handle feeling unloved or unwanted. Now I realize that I have to accept that feeling and just deal with it. I'm learning how. It's just difficult to do. That doesn't mean that I felt it was ok to seek someone else.

Where do I stand? A marriage has no room for a trio or quartet. It's a couple. Two people. Two people sharing a life as friends, as well as lovers.


I'm not waiting for him to work on this. I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I am. I am trying to work on my own issues and insecurities. I just had no idea whether or not he even cared any more. It seems he does, based on his post, but I just feel so distant from him now.

Aside from counseling, what plans can I make? What can I do? I'm trying to put in the extra effort to show him I'm thinking about him, but from 10,000 miles away.. I don't know what else I can do.


A counselor is all well and good, but this is extremely difficult to do completely alone, aside from the counselor. This is hard without anyone in my corner. I can't get in contact with my family, I'm not allowed to have friends.. so I have to go this completely alone. It's just hard to deal with. I want to take all the right steps and do the right things.

I want a plan, but I don't even know where to begin...

Adrift,

You said
The purpose of this site is NOT to persecute anyone. It is to rebuild marriages. Your side is not irrelevant, but oddly it is not as important as your decision making and internal thought processes. You are not a bad person but you have made bad decisions and that is what we want to address...the framework within which you make or have made your decisions. If that changes, then I believe your H will have more confidence that you will honor your marriage.

The problem is not your friends, it is your apparent lack of boundaries. Permit me to illustrate. If I go on a business trip and I go into a bar and meet a woman who I don't know and doesn't know me. A woman I am very attracted to physically, and who seems to find me attractive, is it alright to have a One Night Stand? Of course it's not, and everyone here including you will tell me that.

However, my W would not know, so who would it hurt? Well, the short answer is...ME. You see I have a boundary that says "I will NOT have an affair on my W, EVER." So whether she knows or not, whether she treats me right or not, whether I even like her or not, it is unimportant. What is important is that I made a promise to myself the day I married her, that I would NEVER have an affair.

Now I have done more than just say I have a boundary. I travel alot and have for the 30 years of my marriage. I NEVER go to bars unless it is with some of the guys I travel with. I never go dancing or where there is dancing. I brings books to read in my room. I simply do NOT put myself in a situation where I could be tempted. I have a plan and I use it. It means I don't have to be "strong", my plan is to reduce the chances I will even be tempted. It works for me.

Do you see why I am asking about your boundaries, not those imposed on you by your H, or those around you, I mean YOURS. Further, do you see what I mean about a plan? You are in a situation where you will have many opportunities to be with other men. You cannot avoid the situation, but you can make it safer for yourself. You need a plan to avoid as much temptation as you can, and you need internal boundaries.

Now you may say that you had them, but the reality is you thought if your H did not find out, it was cool. Come on, you need to be honest with yourself if you are going to address this. Further, your lying to him clearly suggests that you felt "if he did not know, it would be alright." But, Adrift, you knew and that should have been enough.

Do you see where I am going? Why I am leaning on you to start to really look at this. It won't be pretty, but it will help you address your issues and start to protect yourself, thus giving your H some confidence that you are starting to understand what this is about.

So what I and others are trying to get at here is your internal thinking about these things. If you want to change, if you want to show your H the 'new' you, you have to develop a plan to protect yourself, thereby protecting him.

Notice this is not about what he did, or even how hurt you were and are about his actions or lack of actions. You cannot control your H, just yourself.

You also said
You see whether he cares or not, is not the issue. You need to address these issue whether or not you are married to him. You need to for your own emotional health, not to mention physical health. So tell us your plan.

You said the final things Not so difficult if you are working on your issues right now. You can share with your H what you learn. You can share with your H your new insights. But, this is a journey you need to take because as you suggested in your first post, these issues have been with your for a time now. They got carried into the marriage and affected it. You need to finally face these issues and address them.

No you don't. You can have a counselor, a chaplain, and certainly the people here will help you. You are NOT alone, that is what this the purpose of this site. You don't understand yet, but the people here are not going to judge you. Some may sound harsh, others friendly, but the reason most people post here is to learn, to receive help, and to help others.


Well, you might as well plan on taking a few missteps, because no gets recovery down 100%. You are human, and you are expected to take a misstep. But, what you must do, is step out smartly with every intention of addressing these issues and as you go and get feedback you will learn.


I hope I have given you a few ideas to consider. Ask questions, at first pretty much everyone is going to strongly suggest that you work on your issues and decision making before addressing your H's issues. As you do this, the plan for addressing the marriage and the rest of your life will become more obvious to you.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

I have some ideas. And this has helped a bit, but I still feel a bit lost. I wish I didn't feel so helpless...

Adrift,

You are not helpless. You just have not refined the problem yet. Until you do, it is very hard to understand how you can help the situation. Usually the first step is to address yourself and your issues as we have been talking about.

I believe as you do this, it will become clear how you can help your marriage and your life. One step at a time girl. You cannot eat the whole watermellon in one bite.

Now do my questions to you make more sense? Define the problem, set up a plan to address one item at a time, and gradually you will get there. You cannot control your H's thinking, but it seems to me he is willing to cut you some slack with regard to allowing you to see if you are willing to do the work it takes to address the issues at hand.

One of the things that is very clear is that you two don't communicate very well. My personal guess is that you two don't have much confidence in yourselves and your motivations, hence it is hard to receive and understand the information you get from one another.

Which leads by to you, your boundaries, your internal plans. Once you have that settled, understood and squared away, THEN communications becomes much easier, and the need to lie is greatly diminished.

Adrift, this is a process, just like eating the watermellon. First you slice in half, then quarters, the eigths, and then you make small bite size pieces from a piece that you can handle easily.

Do you see what I am talking about? I hope so.

God Bless,

JL

Well, I figured out what one of my biggest problems is and this may not make any sense to anyone. I figured I'd bring it up here anyway; maybe someone can make it make sense to me too. I'm still a bit perplexed, honestly.

When I met my husband and we decided we would be "together" I *vowed* I would NOT repeat history and cheat. When we married I MEANT it. I wouldn't cheat, period! I swore, not just to him, but to myself, I would not stray.

I don't know if he didn't take me seriously, or he let my past colour his decisions but for 5 years I kept hearing "If you need to be with someone else, it's Ok. Just tell me". I was questioned on whether or not I was already cheating; I was even accused of it occasionally. For 5 years I was faithful. I NEVER planned to cheat.

I kept hearing "No, really.. if you feel you need to, just be HONEST with me!" I kept telling him, over and over, I wanted to remain faithful. He kept saying, "sex and love are different.. " etc. etc.

When I decided to meet OM#1, I was FULLY intending to keep that vow.. but RIGHT BEFORE I EVEN LEFT, he said, yet again "Look, it's totally OK. Really it is. Just be honest with me. I understand if you need someone else sometimes". Something inside me just SNAPPED. I was so SICK of hearing how "OK" it was..

It was petty, it was stupid, it was foolish.. but I said F it and went ahead. We hung out much of the evening and just talked.. but later we did kiss and I did do SOMETHING. When I got home, I tried to lie about it. I didn't have SEX with him, but it was still cheating. Plain and simple.

Well, my husband said "well, you should just go through with it.. I know you want to". And at this point, I was thought "well, I ruined it already. I'd been faithful for 5 years and now I'm not. I may as well just do it" So a week later, I did.

The OM and I carried on conversations, flirtations.. it was disastrous. The nastier my husband got about the whole situation, I felt, he pushed me into.. the more I focused on the OM.

I'm not making excuses, even though it sounds that way, but I blamed HIM. I blamed my husband because, d***it, I was GOING TO BE FAITHFUL and he NEVER believed it. EVER.

Once that floodgate was opened, the shame I felt was overwhelming. His anger was too. The constant threats to leave me, didn't help. The constant bitterness and basically calling me a w***e didn't help.

I really wanted to remain faithful. Once I'd already cheated, it just became "easier" to cheat again. The second time, however, I couldn't stand the guilt. Even though I knew he would never find out, unless I told him, I couldn't live with it. So I confessed. The rest of the story, you know..

It's been a nightmare ever since. He can't trust me. I don't blame him, but I don't think he understands how much it hurt me that he NEVER believed I could be faithful. He never believed I could be in a monogamous relationship and be happy that way.

Now I've pretty much proven that.. and it devastates me. I know it devastates him. I don't know WHY I just didn't STOP myself instead of saying "heck with it, he's pushing me.. this what he wants? FINE. I'll SHOW HIM THIS ISN'T" I wished HE would have said "No, please.. don't do this" but he never did.

How do I get past that? What can I do? As I said, I'm not making excuses. I could have stopped myself, I didn't. The guilt is overwhelming and so is the part of me that blames HIM for all of this.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Adrift,

You once asked how you could address this and start to recover. I know you have read your H's thread as you post on it as well. He is getting a bit of a 2x4 about HIS decisions isn't he? They were not very mature, and they reflect a young man who is NOT confident that he has what it takes to keep his W happy. I think his decision to encourage you to seek out the first OM is very representative of such insecurity. Then he did not know how to handle the result and your lying and further cheating.

What do you think?

Now as I started this with you asking what it might take to recover this marriage, allow me to quote from his post that I am sure you read. He said
So given what he has said and given what you just posted here, do you have respect for yourself? Do you respect the decisions that you have made? If not, then why did you do them? I understand the reasons you gave, but do you understand why you violated YOUR vows, promises, morals, and showed so little respect for yourself? You need to really consider this.

I mentioned to your H that his response to me may well say his marriage. He asked why I thought that. I have not responded to his question I am not sure I will. You see, the important thing is how you respond to his comments. You two need to talk about his thoughts on this matter.

Further, he has given you a road map for you plan. You are going to have to decide what ACTIONS you will take to see that you follow your plan? Assuming that you still want to address the issues in your marriage.

He needs to know how you plan to protect YOURSELF, and by doing that protect him. He needs to know why you have protected yourself so little in the past. You see he has already figured out that you have little chance of protecting him and the marriage unless you realize that it is to YOUR advantage to protect YOURSELF.

This is about YOU protecting yourself first and foremost. You are on an isolated tour, where men out number women greatly. Why are not protecting your reputation, and yes your career? You know there will be talk about you and your decisions. I am sure all of the women are discussed in some manner or another, and the manner depends on YOUR actions and behavior.

You really need to think about this carefully.

Please consider what I have said. I look forward to your response.

God Bless,

JL

Adrift,

I refuse to go back and read your H's thread but I am sure I am one of the ones that JL said is whacking you H pretty good. It is hard to know how much of what you have written is true and how much is rewritten history but I am going to take you at your word. You have to decide what you want from yourself and then you have to decide what you want from marriage. It sounds like your H's concept was pretty twisted and then it sounds like he didn't really believe the words he was telling you.

At the end of the day we all have choices to make and we live with the results. What do you want to be? More importantly, who do you want to be?

If I had been in the situation you described, I would have gotten the idea that my spouse really didn't love me that much. To constantly hear that it is okay for me to sleep with someone else tells me that my spouse doesn't value me or our marriage.

In your H's thread, he said it was a mistake. That is putting it mildly. Having an A doesn't make you a bad person. I guess I have not read your life history but it is obvious that you described yourself as psomiscuous and I get the feeling that staying faithful in a marriage was not something you were sure you could do and maybe even struggled with it. Maybe that is something you should explore more.

I think you and H both need to consider IC. JMO. I also think you need to start finding ways to look at yourself positively instead of negatively and learn to start believing in yourself. You don't need OM's to validate you as a person.

I think some people are being unnecessarily hard on him, honestly.

Actually, I do have respect for myself. I may not respect all the decisions I've made, but I do respect MYSELF. I understand why, but that doesn't excuse. However, I do know I won't violate them again. I acted impulsively, out of anger, frustration, hurt, and a complete lack of feeling cared about. I know NOW I need to talk to him, first.. even if he's not willing to listen. If I don't change that compulsion to act before thinking, who loses here?

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to lose my marriage. However, I don't want to lose myself either. I remember what the downward spiral was like before, I don't care to repeat it. Whether HE believes it or not, I can't say. I know how *I* feel about the matter.

Unfortunately, that's something that will only come in time. Not the acts, themselves, but his belief in these acts. Who knows how long it'll take? I certainly don't.


There is a reason I tend to keep to myself, and a select few people (people who don't party excessively or have "reputations"), around here. I've seen the reputations that other women have gotten (most earned). I don't care to have that kind of scarlet letter on my chest. I screwed up once, nothing is worth my carreer or my marriage. Especially not here where everyone acts like wolves on the prowl. I'm worth more than a piece of meat. I know this.

I'm just sorry I didn't THINK before I acted.

Okay I just did read your H's thread. He is the one who is rewriting history. Amazing. Focus on you. Obviously there will be differences in interpretation of things. Don't get hung up on that.

Oh that was definately a thought that crossed my mind more than once.. another thought was "is he trying to make it Ok for HIMSELF to have an extramarital encounter"?

I am no psychologist but that almost seems like mental abuse. Very passive-agressive behavior on hubby's part. Does he not believe in the sanctity of marriage? Sex is okay because it is not love? Sounds like he was afraid you were going to have an affair so was just beating you to the punch. I still find this way weird.

Adrift Overseas and hehbetrayed,

I know it is a tough time for you both. However there aren't many couples willing to come out here and share what is happening in their R the way that the two of you have chosen to share. Honesty is so important in trying to recover your M. I so appreciate that Adrift you are willing to have your H read your post and be accountable to yourself and to him to tell the truth.

Hehbetrayed I thnk it is wonderful that you are willing to
accept working with her on being accountable when speaking as a BS it is painful to hear some things and deal them. You have chosen to be here hearing the painful things and seeking help.

At wanting to inflictt the same grief and pain that I felt from my H's betrayal, I thought to have an A. I wanted so many times to rub his face in anguish (if I could). Reading your story, Adrift, I am grateful that I didn't make this choice. It wouldn't have helped me or us one bit and I would still have to deal with the underlying issues that influenced this idea and that made for problems in my M in the first place.

The road ahead may be difficult for you, both. There will have to be dealing with matters that address the problems in your M prior to the A and those in the present. Those problems that pertain to you as individuals and then together as a collective.

It takes courage doing what you are doing.

Anyway, I wish you both recovery. Recovery is determinant on the path you'll take, the personal choices you'll make toward healing yourselves and this M. I hope that as individuals you can work on the personal issues that your face and that as a couple you can come together and rebuild.

The best to you, both. Godspeed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Adrift,

So aside from speculating on your H's reasons for his behavior, what are you going to do about yours? After all you are the only person you control. What are you thinking about doing for your marriage or have you decided to end the marriage. You have decisions to make. You have plans to make. You have a life you need to focus on.

So rather than speculate, why not get off of dead center and start to discuss and formulate some plans to accomplish what you want to accomplish.

I look forward to hearing from you.

God Bless,

JL

What am I doing about mine? I spend a lot of time alone. I'm in counseling. I spend a lot of time trying to take my tattered soul out and repair the holes left therein.

I'm doing it for me now. So this never happens again, if not for US for me and my future.

I just feel so emptied out right now. We talk and it'll be great, then something small will happen and he'll blow up at me, ignore me, blow me off, and I won't know why. I'll sit there and stew all day on it, because he'll just get mad and disappear. I can't contact him. I'm 10,000 miles away, what am I going to do?

We'll talk and I'll think things are going well, then he'll be sure to inform me about how he's always thinking about 2 futures. Sure he wants the one with me, but he's planning for one without.

This may be true, but it doesn't make me feel very secure.. nor very wanted. It just makes me feel like he's thinking "well, it'll be nice if it works out.. but if not, oh well, no biggie".

I just don't feel very important or valued.

Then, to top it off, the OW he'd said he was using as a sounding board? She doesn't exist. He made her up. Made up a MySpace account for her and a roommate, made up the fact that there were phone calls, time spent, even said she spent the night on the couch once.

Said he did it so I would "fight for him" and that he wanted to make me jealous. All the while, during this fiasco he would tell me that if he went to her, it would be all my fault, if angry he'd threaten to try and sleep with her. This big, elaborate lie from someone who says he can't tolerate even the tiniest white lie from me. (This is the 2nd time he's made someone up to catch me or trick me, in some way)

Right now, we're having one of those days. We email back and forth while I'm at work, faily often. I waited around for an email he'd promised, but got hungry and decided to go get chow. I come back and I have the email.. and as I was responding, I got the classic "Ok, going to bed. Night". He does this ALL the time. He'll get mad about something, I may not even know what about.. then just cut off ALL contact.

Oh but he did come back long enough to give me sh*t for going to a message board he banned me from. Just said "oh how is X message board" ~ then proceeded to ignore my emails, my text messages, my phone calls.. I've been sitting here all day wondering if he still even cares.

I feel like he's toying with me sometimes. What he says HERE and how he acts toward me are two seperate things. It's like Jeckyl and Hide. On here he sounds like a devastated, wounded puppy.. to me, sometimes he sounds like that, but more often than not he's pretty nasty.

Then tells me I deserve his rancor and how DARE I get upset if, in a 2 hour conversation, after an hour of getting ****** at.. I get mad in return. I'm being inconsiderate of his feelings if I get upset at being, basically, railed on for over an hour.

I'm just so frustrated.. I'm doing what I can, but it's NOT enough. He wants me to change the way HE wants, on HIS time table, in the manner that HE feels is completely appropriate and if it's NOT going the way HE feels it should.. of course, the "well we should take a break from each other for an indefinate period of time".

I'm 10,000 miles away.. if he wants to take a break, what the ****** can I do? He knows that saying "I don't want to talk to you til I feel like talking to you" cuts me to the core. But it's Ok, cause he's doing it to save his 'sanity'.. since I'm not changing fast enough or on his terms.

Damnit, I'm so hurt right now. I can't believe he did this AGAIN. I've sat up talking to him til 2, 3, or 4 am (I have to be at work at 6am and I work 14 hour shifts) when HE wanted, but he couldn't wait a measly 30mins for me. He had to work in the morning (10 HOURS later), so I get going to bed early.. but that was just a slap.

I'm sure this is all my fault.

It always is.

Just as an aside, I'm honestly afraid if I give him the "break" he keeps talking about.. he'll just realize he doesn't want me any more. I feel like, unless I speak to him every day, he'll recognize I really don't matter to him, he doesn't miss me, and he'll forget he loves me (or realize he never did)..

I'm just.. sad today.

This is not advice one way or the other. I just remember that when WW and I were discussing a break (her idea), I told her myself that I was afraid that if she left for a time, I would learn that I didn't really need her. She told me that was her fear also. We ultimately decided not to take a break. We were also advised by everybody under the Sun not to take a break. We were on the fence for a long time. It is very tempting - for each of us but at different times. We were always out of synch on the break issue. Good thing probably.

Post deleted by Adrift_Overseas

Adrift,

There are somethings you cannot worry about, and one of them is something you have NO CONTROL or responsibility for. You do not control your H and you have no responsibility for his behavior, especially 10,000 miles away. Please calm down, and keep working on yourself. You will NOT regret it.

God Bless,

JL

As an update, she was lying about at least half of what she wrote on here, and has decided she doesn't "need" help.