ok...first calm down......the truth isnt gonna hurt her...your previous actions did. the truth no matter how bad you percieve it is hers to have. she will allways fill in the blanks with a worse case scenario...without the truth what is she supposed to believe. some of your truths are gonna be bad for her....some will be not as bad as she is imagining....but the offering of the absolute honesty is gold to BOTH OF YOU!!!

before i go any further i am gonna wait for you to read the letter....it may change your opinion on this....;)

i have to run out for a bit...meeting at sons school....read the letter then we will talk. i need to let you know that the he?? she is in my hubby kept me in for years....the damage that did was WAY WORSE than any truth he ever told me......please i beg you dont do that.....

That is why I am here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I am looking for direction and MB has helped me in so many ways already


KJ- Are you o-kay? Haven't heard from you.

Live in your head a lot don't you? Working it all out - her side and yours - looking for the solution that will give the quickest fix.

She is working ten times as hard as you just staying married and in the same house. Stop trying to be the therapist and fix it for both of you. Trust in the MB processes.

This is a long process - try the acknowledgement of her pain when she seems to be just sitting there bringing you down.

Try this " I can tell you are feeling rebound pain Is it making you feel worthless and sending questions running around your head? I wish I could make it go away, but I don't have any magic tricks - no one does. Would a hug help?"

Do not tell her you are doing all the work - she may think - "well you did all the work to have the affair and lie for so long, now I am in bad pain and it paralyses me and you are calling me lazy" -

Don't try to make her give you permission to live in the fog and think you are doing all the work - you are not - if she is in the house and being nice to you sometimes, she is climbing uphill with an 200lb pack on her back emotioanlly AND she is still shell shocked from the first revelation, let alone the second revelation with all the further trust breaking lies it revealed.

It doesn't make her feel powerful, she is mistaking the feeling of energy, the drive, even by being critical, to find some words from you that will explain it all, and make it feel better. this raw pain creates energy in her it does it to all of us - like the trapped timid animal that in fear finds energy. You are labeling it power as you feel powerless to stop it. She is trying to appease you as she is labeled, by you, "Mean" and now "Lazy and critical".

BIIGGGGG LB's they will increase her pain and produce more of the behaviours you find troublesome.

SP

Hi Iass...

Just read your story, one thing came to mind. Sounds like your W is worried that OW is laying in wait somewhere, possibly even moving to be near you. I'd write out a No Contact Letter ASAP, with your W, and mail it immediately. This should give your W a little reassurance.

OW needs to know that your W knows about the A (that alone should scare her off), and that you two are working on your M, and that she should NEVER contact you. Very clear, if for nothing else than to help your W, OK? Good luck - Dru

Your sorry [censored], <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Like others have told you, you are making great strides. I want to encourage an exercise for you and your wife, now that you seem to be adhering to the policy of radical honesty. This was in one of my recent posts to you:



Could you please try this? Then try to do a POJA (policy of joint agreement) with her. The agreement would be that she no longer ask questions regarding the gorry details of your A, and in exchange, you will answer ANY and ALL other questions of hers. If it helps, tell her this is something SH himself recommends. Some BS's may disagree with this approach, but I believe what SH has told my H and I about gorry details. This information is not useful in the recovery of your M. It's only purpose is to keep the BS in an anger mode, prohibiting him/her from moving forward with recovery. It won't be easy for your wife, but maybe she's ready to give up her need to ask questions about gorry details. You'll never know unless you ask!

As far as feeling shot down for trying so hard in recovery, get over it. You're gonna have to buck up here fella. Do what you have to do, but don't retaliate in any fashion, just listen to her. This is horribly difficult to do, I understand how it makes you feel (attacked,stupid, etc.), but ya gotta do it for now. Her negative comments will get fewer and fewer, as you continue to meet her EN's, and as she begins to trust you again. She's actually not just sitting there watching you work, she's working on herself, trying to feel love for you again, trying to forgive you AND herself (BS's often feel guilty for the condition of the M pre-A). She needs to observe you making your efforts, let her.

She's not your supervisor bud. She's your wife. Keep treating her like the most important, loved human in your life, no matter what she throws at you. I don't mean you'll need to do this forever, but at this stage of recovery, "just do it" (love Nike for this slogan!).

KJ

This was her own admittion. I know she is working harder than me thats why I told her to let me do my part and when she want to jump in I will be happy to have her assistance. I wasn't being judgemental of her . I was just trying to describe to her how I felt . That is one of her EN...honesty and openness. She appreciates my openness even if it is not what she wants to her or even if it isn't true. She just wants me to be open with her and I was. I am glad I was because I think it helps us keep control of the recovery so neither of us feels weakened by the other.
You are correct with that statement. I think I am thinking like every other FWS. I just need to let go and allow this to just happen. One piece of advice a friend told me was.."stop trying to MAKE things happen and just LET things happen". Still working on that!

OW knows W knows about the A. My wife called and confronted her. OW has not tried to contact me in over 5 months(about) . I think OW knows I don't want anything with her. I just need my W to realize that...

Thanks for you suggestions. I will see if there is anything I can do to help my W realize .

write the letter and let your wife decide if SHE needs to mail it....just you writing it is gold.....

And what am I? Chopped liver?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Feeling rather left out today, just wondering if ya got my recent post and if you'd given any thought to the exercise I suggested?

KJ

OK, good.

I was going to say that this just looked like a real Lack of Boundaries issue on your part. Have you discussed how you did not protect your boundaries and how you will protect them in the future? Your wife needs to know what you will do in the future if you find yourself in the company of a available female.

But if I read this correctly, you were alone, deliberately went to a singles bar, without your wedding ring on, and did not tell OW you were married. That's VERY premeditated. It's going to be hard to convince your W that you believe in monogamy, because it seems you were looking for some easy action. Was there something special about that night that made you do this? Have you discussed how many times you cruise clubs without your w.ring on, and how many other times you have scored? Do you plan on continuing these types of activies?

See, this type of WS bothers me so much more than than the 'I LOOOOVVVEEEE her' type of WS. People can accidentally fall in love if they're not protecting themselves against it, but people dont accidentally cruise bars for ONS's. There's a big mental shift that you must make before your W will be truly safe.

I'm not trying to kick the WS, but it seems like you may feel this was just some freak accident, like this just snowballed out of control, but I see many places where you could have stopped this. Until you admit full responsibility (probaby to yourself, first), your W isnt going to feel any safer. - Dru

Dru,

I'm gonna have to beg to differ on this one. People don't "accidentally" fall in love, period. People don't "accidentally" cruise bars for ONS's, period. I fail to see where one type of WS is better, or more justified, than the other. Both types did not protect their weaknesses, period. The spouse who seeks out a LTA spends just as much (probably more) time plotting their next rendevoux (sp?) as the spouse who's plotting their next ONS. I'm just saying, there was absolutley NOTHING accidental about my A, where I fell so in LOOOOVVVVEEE with my OM!! Just food for thought. Thanks for reminding me about this, feels good to remember this crap sometimes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

KJ

Hi KJ,

People do 'accidentally' fall in love IF they DO NOT PROTECT THEMSELVES AGAINST IT. It's starts off as chatting, then revealing personal info, then more time together, etc, etc, then one person realizes they have developed real feelings for someone who is not their spouse. It's the classic A, 'We didnt mean for this to happen'. Because the WS isnt wary enough to stop it at the chatting stage, the relationship deepens. Very slippery slope.

LTA's can be sex only types or the big romance types. My point was more about how the initial A occures, as opposed to the length of the A.

I mean you didnt deliberately decide one day 'I'm going to fall in love with OM and have an A', right? It started off innocently, didnt it? And I dont mean that deception and planning didnt eventually occur, but initally? Didnt you think he was just a nice guy, a friend, someone to talk to?

Saying that, I know NOTHING about your situation, and I'm certainly not trying to cause you any pain. But I see these 'LOVE' type relationships that happen to people who otherwise believed in monogamy, but did not protect themselves from developing outside relationships.

Vs. someone who's actively hunting for ONS's. That's someone who never intended on being faithful and got caught. One had morals and got lost, the other never did. That's the big difference, in my mind.

It's believed that you have a better chance at recovering a sucessful marriage with the WS that actually believed in monagamy, than recovering with the WS who never did. Nothing about any being more justified, less wrong, or less painful. Again, I'm sorry if I caused you any distress. Please take care - Dru

Hey Dru,

You caused me absolutely no distress, quite the opposite, I appreciate your take on the different types of A's.

I think we're both making the same points, just wording them differently. The only part I still struggle with (speaking as a FWW of course), is the use of the word "accidental". It just makes it sound like the beginning of an A can be so innocent, and that's where I beg to differ. For me, I knew almost right away, that I was letting another man meet my needs. I knew I could have stopped it, right then and there. I made a conscious choice to continue with the "innocent" chatting, revealing personal info., spending time together, etc. I DID deliberately put down my defenses and allow this OM to do these things with me. No, the deception and planning didn't come later, it began almost immediately after I decided I could handle this relationship. Now get this, I even believed I could stay married, keep my family together, while I was also sharing myself with this OM!! Man, that's twisted thinking, but I digress....

I suppose everyone's A's are different, and that's why we visualize different scenerios. Speaking only for myself, I'd have to say there was nothing "accidental" or "innocent" about my A.

The one thing I certainly did not plan on doing, was falling in love with the OM. That did catch me off guard, big time. Whole 'nother thread there!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And I do agree with you, that it is a different kind of person who can go looking for ONS's. That would scare me 5h1tle55!! Enough said.

I read somewhere, that EA's are easier for the BS to recover from than PA's. I also read that people who have strictly PA's, tend to be repeat offenders. Interesting, huh.

Thanks for your post, I love to be kept thinking about things that directly affect my own recovery. Have a great day!

KJ

Hi

Thanks for coming over to my thread to say hi! And FYI I read through your whole post and I have some questions.............










JUST KIDDING <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />!!!

Love you!

--me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ah, you proved my point. You said you didnt plan on falling in love... it was an... accident? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Me, too. Every spouses nightmare, huh? Glad to hear you've got a handle on the 'twisted' thinking. Everything's twisted during an A. I was just reading on another post that it's easier for people to change their THINKING than it is their BEHAVIOUR. Instead of NOT having an A, people can change their thinking to 'An A's not really bad'. Made alot of sense to me. Twist the thinking, dont modify the behaviour. Easiest route, most immediate payoff.

Hope you are doing well today and in the mess of recovery. Please take care - Dru

You guys are too funny. It's so nice to see you having fun!!

Have a great evening!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

KJ

i feel as if i have met my little sister.....lol. she's almost as bad a wisea$$ as i am...man sosorry.....you really were getting it from both ends when i was questioning you relentlessly....rotflmao!!!!!

my hubby gets the most beautiful shade of green when he hears......"hub, can i ask something???"

i sometimes do it to see if he still gets green!!!!lol he is slowly catching on.....:)

KJ,

Now that you look back on your A, was it love that you had for the OM? Or was it some other twisted thoughts. i.e. Infatuation I find it hard to beleive that a FWW can look back and say what they felt was love. Did you love the person or the fantasy? My FWW has said the same thing. She's been in NC since December but she sometimes still refers to it as love. I wonder what to think, it's been almost 5 months. We have 2 kids. I ask how a person could fall "in love" with someone who was willing to destroy a person, their kids, their husband. Curious about your thoughts as a FWW. It's the thing that hurts the most as a BS. I always feel like my wife is going to settle for me. I'm really frustrated.

2A

Hey if the shoe fits wear it... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

O-kay let me respond to an earlier post before Ms. Chopped liver spoils and go bad. I did read your post. About 5 minutes ago. I don't know how I missed it earlier. Maybe you were writing when I was , o-well either way, I liked what you said about the standard for question asking. Did you post that to my wife? I felt the same way but I just figured I was being selfish by thinking that way. I don't know if she will go for that especially if I present it to her. I totally feel that the gorry details are not very productive, For example can someone please explain to me how needing to know who bought the condoms promotes healing? All those types of questions do is give her another smack in the face which I don't want to do since I already blind sided her with the A ! What question will be next...who put the condom on you or her...come on there isn't any thing productive that will come out of those kinds of questions. Well maybe I am jumping the gun here ...I still haven't read Josephs letter like Nikko told me to so I am gonna get going now and go read the letter now. Just wanted to respond to you post before you throw a hissy fit...ha ha ha <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

some of the gory details are needed....there is absolutely no way you will ever understand that. i also think KJ is off in suggesting what she was told should go for you also. what harley tells individual couples may differ from what is in his books for a reason. because he has spoken to the couple and has a REASON to change the advice. in everything else he PREACHES HONESTY ABOUT THE DETAILS.... so what he told kj and her hubby, he had a reason to...he hasnt edited his books to that as far as i know.

i spoke to your wife about the questions....gave her some things to chew on...but i got to tell you that you belittling what she needs to know or why she needs to know it, or trying to educate why its gonna hurt her....that is not gonna help you and her a bit.