MDC,
I've posted a lot about feeling I don't have any control in my life and about being a people pleaser in the post "I need a Translater, what does it all mean?" Mainly my post are either on the bottom of the third page or on the fourth. I don't know if any of it will apply to your WW, but it might.



Counseling has helped me with this too, trusting my husband's words. Funny thing is, I never thought I would have a hard time trusting him on something like that. That's what's really so wierd. Mainly, part of it is trusting myself that he can be trusted... trusting that my decision to trust him is safe, since it failed me before. So part of it is self-trust, the other BS trust.


The reason the grovelling apology doesn't work very well is because the WW doesn't know if the only reason you are saying it is because you are pulling at straw to keep her. The kindly said apology with conviction does better because then she can see it's something your not going to sway from, even if she leaves you for life. Basically, it is a commitment made to yourself that you will do certain things better. If she leaves and you marry someone else years down the line, the commitment was made to yourself because ultimately it benefits yourself, giving you what you want, which is a good, fulfilling married relationship. That is the kind of guy your WW wants anyways, so when she realizes that is what you've decided to become, a considerate spouse focused on your woman's EN, that can't help but be attractive to her.

Plus, unknown to possibly many BSs, leaving the BS is not as attractive an option in the long run because of the stigma that follows you and the years of your life that you are turning your back on and throwing away. My husband and I are highschool sweethearts. We've been together 10 years, and all my adult history is together with him. What would I be looking back on, if I left? Both our parents would be devastated. Lots of these sort of things are rooting for the WW to not ultimatley leave.


Well, I don't know how you could not be upset about it. The only thing you can do is make sure you don't call her names or insult her or devalue her with what you say. Express you frustration, say your hurt, but don't call names or tell her she's stupid or anything like that. Maybe that's not an issue for you, but my husband used to say three things to me that hurt me more than anything when we argued, 1)that I'm selfish, 2) that I'm stupid, and 3) that I'm lazy (basically, my husband is a workaholic, so my typical 8 hours now looks miniscule to him). He doesn't say those things to me any more, and he stopped, once I started addressing how badly those things really hurt me.

The truth is, we are all selfish. All we can hope for, and try towards, is to be more thoughtful and considerate of others. But I don't think on earth we'll ever be completely selfless. We'd have to deny that we're human to think we could ever completely weed it out of us. And then we'd just turn ate inwards on ourselves, despising the fact that yes, we are selfish sometimes, just as we are sinful. Sin in the absense of love, and simply being unloving sometime, even on accident, could be sinful...

Other words, like "stupid", my BS said that he didn't mean that I was, but that my thinking was stupid, or my actions. But it still hurts awfully bad. My dad used to call me "stupid" when I was a kid, every time I did something wrong. It really hurts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Basically, all name calling attacks the other person's worth. That is why it is so hurtful. It is even more hurtful when the person who is supposed to love you the most tells you you're of low value to them via mean words they use. It hurts. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> That is what would be termed "verbal abuse", when words are used to make the other person feel unworhty and unlovable.

The loving way to express anger and frustration is simply to just say it. Something like, "I am so hurt, my heart feels like it is broken in 100 pieces on the floor, and when you talk to the OM I feel like someone is taking a hammer and just smashing even those little pieces of my heart that are left on the floor". Metaphors can help, the goal is to desribe your feelings while making sure you don't attack the other person's worth. But don't use a metaphor to attack your WW's character. Use it only to describe how you feel.

I have been so hurt when my husband called me stupid or lazy that I just hid at the bottom of my closet once or twice. I wanted to hide from him, I was so hurt, I couldn't face him. He had no idea how badly he had hurt me then.

If you've been harsh with words, you need to apologize to your WW for that and let her know that you know it is wrong, that maybe you don't know why you do it, but you know it's wrong and you will do all you can to completely stop the habit.

And if you mess up sometime, apologize as quickly as you can. So, now for my confession. I've called my husband an a**h*** before and other mean things. I always felt really, really bad about it, so bad that I couldn't face him any more. But I decided a year ago that I was simply not going to speak like that to him when I was mad. I would never do it. I didn't care if he did. I wasn't going to any more.

So if I ever got mad and felt hurt enough to lash out at him, and I actually did call him something mean, I apologized as quickly as I could. He knew I was trying really hard to stop.

It can still be made good if you have a slip up and you apologize right away. Call yourself on it. For me it was like, "You're such an "a**h***".. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Oh, I take that back, I'm really sorry, I shouldn't have called you that, you're not an a**h***, it was wrong and inappropriate for me to call you that. Please forgive me".

And then usually the conversation would be restored, instead of broken down.

Also, I don't know much about getting the spouse to agree to NC, but my husband just laid it out for me. He said that if I talk to the guy in the next year, he's leaving. I slipped up and called the guy after two weeks. But he found out a few weeks later, and told me again that I must not be taking him seriously. He said it was my choice, but that he could not stay with me if I chose to communicate to the other guy.

I guess it helped that the other guy told his wife too, and we ended communication simultaneously. But either way, at some point she needs to know you're serious.

MDC,

Don't get angry, get resolute. Simply look her in the eye when you find out about contact and say "I am really disappointed in the choice you made. I hope that you eventually see the harm you are doing to yourself, me, and the family." And then walk off and leave it alone. No arguing, no threats, no promises.

An interesting aspect about not getting angry is that it has some deep pyshcological (sp) affects. They expect anger, they expect threats, they expect tears. They don't expect dissappointment in their actions. They begin to think something is up. IN short you being to cause them to stop and think when they don't receive the reaction they expect.

MDC you are in a war, and the idea is to win the war NOT the battle. Arguing, yelling, crying about contact is a battle. It is one SHE has to fight, not you. Your goal is to win the war, and that starts with getting control of your emotions. Next you develop a plan and you stay with it. You identify your goals and why you want to reach them.

You don't go nuts and charge the machine gun nest when you could call in air support. Do you see what I am saying. Calling in air support is about patience and I on the goal.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Sturgis05, buckle your seat belt, this is long!!!!!

I agree with you!!! I think you read me wrong. I didn't mean grovel. Totally, no! The BS should not grovel. But what I am saying is that the WS will use whatever blips the hurts the BS caused the WS to justify the affair. It makes sense, in any case, that the BS would want to apologize anyways for any hurts they've caused. But sometimes a BS can cause hurt without knowing it, or being too stubborn to admit it and change their ways.

I do think some BSs would have sincerely changed their ways before the A, if only the WS told them about how they were hurt. In fact, I am jealous, I wish my husband had done that. But I am not blaming my husband at all. The truth is, because my EN were not met I was very vulnerable to an affair, although I didn't know it at the time. I had so much pride about not being the kind of person to have an affair. Trully, I never thought I would, or wanted to. But I am not passing the blame to my BS.

No, the BS should not grovel. But when they earnestly own any pain they have caused the WS, then the WS cannot use that as ammunition, and in any case, any wrong thinking on behalf of the WS starts to get holes poked into it. Obviously, if my workaholic husband says to me upon hearing of my affair that he understands and owns the fact that he was not available to meet my EN, and that now he wants to change it, because he realizes it is not good for our relationship, I could not stay mad at him about that any more.

Does that make sense? I don't mean for the WS to justify themselves at all. But in truth, both partners in a relationship apart from an affair should readily apologize to each other, and graciously forgive each. But that's not what happens in many relationships. Some people who their spouses reject won't ever cheat, because somehow they can live alone and in misery with them and be all right.

That said, for those WSs who do not recognize that infedelity is intrinsically wrong, well, I don't know what to say about them. If you steal and you think stealing is alright, well, that is the time that relationship may never work. But when normal people who thought an affair was wrong before they ever had one, and then they have one and they start justifying, well, the reasons, good or bad, in their minds that allow them to be justified need to be removed so that the faulty thinking can be corrected.

I am not trying to be insensitive to the extreme pain a WS causes a BS with an affair. I know that in my marriage, however, it could have been either of us. Neither of us are ok with affairs or have ever been, but we were really that bad. We argued all the time. There was so much hurt and loneliness. Whether I "divorced" my husband officially, or "emotionally divorced" him and ran off and had an affair, the same thing results. It certainly would have still hurt awful bad if I divorced him, and ran off with another guy, or ran off first. The covenant relationship is broken in both instances, and both are horridly awful

The affair within the marriage of course has the added negative of breaking loyalty.

I am at a point where I have gotten over the loss of pride for what I have done. It is easy to resent someone for doing something you would never do.
I used to be completely anti-abortion, and I still am. I am not at all pro-choice. I gave the rebuttal in a debate against abortion in my 10th grade year. But when I got pregnant and my husband (we weren't married at the time) pressured me into an abortion, totally against my better knowledge and wishes, what do you think I did?

It is awful really. I never, ever, ever thought I would have an abortion, and still I can't believe I have. I hated myself for years after that, years. I became really depressed and thought even God had rejected me. It took me a long, long time to realize that God still loved me, that he had forgiven me, and instantly. It took me a long time to forgive myself, because of my false pride. I think false pride is very very dangerous, because it can give a person a feeling that they couldn't possibly sin a certain way.

The truth is, the Scriptures are filled with verses talking about how desperately wicked the human heart is. Even Paul, who adamantly tried to walk with God, writes that he kept sinning even despite his very best effort not to. (I can locate the references if you'd like). I think being aware of our humanity and taking precautions to avoid sinning is far better than assuming one is above it, that one is somehow not human.

The WS is responsible for their own happiness, true!!! But the BS is only apologizing for their contribution to their unhappiness, not for all of it. The WS will eventually and inevitably need to apologize sincerely for all the pain they've caused to the BS, for the affair, for seeking the wrong answer to a valid need for marital fulfillment. That will never go away. The marriage could not make it if the WS did not take responsibility for that. I was addressing the BS simply because they can actually lay the brickwork for the healing and reconciliation to start.





No, they should not beg. They should apologize kindly and with conviction, the way a teacher might say, "we've got to pursue additional tutoring for your student or they may fail the third grade". That kind of conviction, that something needs to be done, will be done, but definitely not grovelling or begging.


I don't know, maybe other WSs do a lot of that, but I feel very responsible for the mess in my life. In fact, my self-hatred got to a level that I couldn't minimize, so bad that I ended up flunking two of my graduate level classes simply because I couldn't concentrate. I couldn't sleep at all, I couldn't do anything, I felt overwhelmed not only with the horror of ruining my marriage, but with ruining the OM's marriage. I can't tell you how many nights I cried myself to sleep... I had nightmares after nightmares. Last year was the worst in my whole life... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

But I have to say that I prayed a whole lot, I prayed for my OM's marriage, and specifically for the OMW, because my heart was breaking for her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I know it sounds absurd. But just because you do something you think is wrong doesn't mean you necessarily don't care about anyone at all. That was the addict part of me, that I did something that I completely loathed, against all my judgment. But I am not excusing that. Yes, that's part of me, that is who I am.

But it is a good thing that God loves even the most despicable. Think of King Solomon. He had 300 wives and 800 concubines. If he wasn't a sex addict, I don't know who was. Think of the prostitute who met Jesus at the well. But who didn't Jesus like at all? The most pious, religiously right walking people in the Bible, the Pharisees.

I am not saying this to say that God wants us to sin, no way! He does not want us to sin. But I think as people we are all predisposed to certain sins and the sooner we figure that out, the sooner we stop pretending we're invinceable, the sooner we can put safeguards in our life and pursue working through negative behaviors with an IC to not have those sinful tendencies completely run and ruin our lives.

Just because someone decides to follow Jesus doesn't mean they all of a sudden know how to walk perfectly with God. No, it takes time for God to deliver them from the strongholds in their life, to refine them like gold. Sometimes, there are strongholds people didn't even know existed.

Knowing how completely weak we are, we can only come on our on our face before God. Humbly, before God. And we should come that way before each other. The truth is, I had hurt my husband prior to the affair more than I could know. And he had hurt me more than he could know. I shouldn't have to "know" all the exact ways I have hurt him to sincerely care and apologize to him for the hurt I have caused. It doesn't even matter if he's hurt me terribly either, because I still have to apologize, if I truly grasp even one part of what I've done.

For a BS to come anything other than humbly before their WS and apologize for hurts caused is self-righteous, just as it is self-righteous for the WS to want the BS to apologize first. But some one must do it. It is a part of humility and taking responsibility for one's life.

I don't know if I'm making any sense. I don't want to frustrate you or anger you, and if your spouse cheated on you, I do not want to be insensitive to your pain.

I am sorry if what wrote earlier caused you hurt or frustration. It was not my intent. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />



In my case, I did tell my husband. He was closed off and unable to hear me. I wonder how prevalent this is among WSs and BSs. I wonder if for some WSs they didn't know how to communicate properly. I know it sounds insane, but even one of my friends who I'm mentoring has had to learn how to really communicate her thoughts to her fiance. Good communication is a learned habit. We either a blessed enough to be modeled with it as children, but if not, beware world! I wonder how many WSs didn't get their EN met simply because they didn't know how to ask for it, or how to express it or even formulate the ideas... or even knew what their EN were....

It seems wrong to me that those blessed with good parenting should take credit for something that God granted to them as a gift out of mercy. That doesn't mean that WSs are not responsible for their behavior. But I think our hearts should go out to "sinners", because God's love is the only thing that can change them, and we are his mechanism he works through. There are still healthy boundaries that need to be employed, and concepts of self-respect and accountability. But honoring other people shouldn't be about whether or not they "deserve" it. God is the only one who can really judge whether a person deserves anything, and so far he has judged that none of us do, thus his grace for us. We should honor other people simply because God commands it of us to love others. A part of honoring others is apologizing for wrongs done. That is why I think this is so important, especially at such a crux as one faced at an A.

But no to grovelling. Healthy boundaries still are required.
Feel free to disagree with me. This is not an argument to me. I learn the most when I exchange ideas and concepts with other people, I hold my thoughts loosely, in the case I could be wrong, and it is very possible that I am. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

MDC,

I don't know how much advice I can really offer. I can say that I see a lot of my WW in your WW, which basically means that they're responding the way they're supposed to. They're following the WS script.

Stick to your plan. Hold your ground and protect your boundaries. There are going to be ups and downs. Unfortunately, I'm in a down right now. The dips in this roller coaster ride can get pretty low, but you know that already. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I certainly empathize with your situation. I say to myself time and patience, time and patience and then I find myself impatient. LOL I guess what I'm getting at is what you're feeling is normal too. You've got to go through it just like I do, just like every one else does. Unfortunately, these things set their own time line and they don't tell anyone what it is. I'll try to post here again when I'm thinking clearer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Best wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Drex. Following your progress.

I want to believe that my WW is winding down the affair. Last night I half jokingly asked if I could write "Mr. Butt-in-sky" (rhymes w/OM last name) an email asking him to get his own life - this after seeing a text message from him asking if my son, MY son was feeling any better. The mood was light enough for her to catch the joke but she got real serious, sighed and said "Do what you have to do."

I told her I was half-kidding but that I wanted to ask her if it was OK so as not to distrupt any NC she has planned. This much was true. I didn't want to send anything to the OM and have it be a love buster. She looked at me and said "Finally you're taking into account how difficult this is for me."

Anyway WW is working from home today and she got an email or an IM or something from OM that made her sigh and jump up from the table. She walked out of the kitchen and said - "I've got to call OM".

I read a MB post on how to support the WW during withdrawl so when she came back in I asked her how it went. That she could tell me and I wouldn't criticize or judge.

So she shared with me some of the conversation. She told him that she had to put her own happiness aside and give our marriage some time - 6 months - in order to do what's best for her family. He kept saying - "You gave him a chance for 5 years why does he get another 6 months?"

He's said this before. This is his 'line' and it gets her. It hurts her because she believes it and buys into it. Very effective line for him.

Of course I was furious and hurt, hurt, hurt inside when she said this because OM is trying to set up some kind of entitlement for himself. And it makes me angry too because our marrige HASN'T been 5 years of crap and WW has 50% responsibility for it. AND I begged her to go to couseling the last time she CHEATED ON ME 2.5 year ago. And 6 months ago I asked her to go to couneling again when things were looking bad. I asked AGAIN in February of this year!!!

When she told me all this I bit my tongue and said nothing but - "This must be hard on you."

I will say that WW did tell me - rarely calmly, mostly in an arguement - what she was missing from the M: affection, help around the house, respect.

WW is also very hung up on the fact that I changed when the OM came into the picture.

Somebody PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE help with these two items - the 5 year "chance" that I had and the change when OM came on the scene. WW uses these as major weapons to keep me at a distance. And she's buying into OM's babble! I need a good reverse babble to her when she says these things that might cause her to stop and think. I will NOT take full responsibility for the state of our entire marriage!!!

I'm angry now and venting. She agreed to '6 months'. Like our marriage is some kind of science project or something. We haven't even talked about what that would entail. And she's going to see her monther for a month so how can we work on it while she's out there??

BTW, thanks for posting JL. Your words are so helpful and exactly what I need. I'm JUST starting to get my feelings under control and am moving into the stage where I can respond cooly, calmly and with self-respect. Now I need the words and the thoughts.

I see that this is something that takes practice. It's a discipline that you have to train your brain to embrace.

Please keep posting. I'm trying to get to the place that you are showing me, Completelylost and all others you're helping. THANK YOU.

Ah yes. How well I still remember the way my FWW would justify continued contact like yours is currently doing.

'I need to call him'
'I had to know somthing, so I talked to him'
'I wanted to understand why he did/said this'
'I want to make sure he is doing ok'

These all are just cover up comments for what's really going on:

'I want my affair'

Your six month trial period might as well be six seconds if she's going to keep contacting him. ******, it takes about 3 months for a WW to get past withdrawal in the first place.

MDC,

I've only posted to you once in this thread, but have been following it somewhat. Just to refresh your memory, I am a FWW.

All I keep thinking to myself as I read your posts is, ENOUGH! ENOUGH! ENOUGH!
You may not agree with this, but seriously man, you are getting crapped on. You allow your W to continue to have contact with OM, while she continues to live in the same house as you, is this correct? Did I miss something?!

I'm afraid your new-found approach of being calm and gentle can actually be translated to becoming lazy about what you need to demand from your W in order to save your M. No offense intended here, but you are WAY off the path to recovery. Do you realize you are NOT in recovery until the NC policy is firmly in place? Perhaps that's why you don't post under the Recovery section of this forum? If you did, all the FBS's would be at your throat for not insisting on a NC plan. Honestly, I don't know how anyone could live like you are. You must have a very high pain tolerance.

I suppose I believe so much in the NC policy because for myself, I know that if I hadn't done it, I would not be calling myself a "F"WW. My H insisted on it, and he was right in doing so. If your W won't adhere to a solid NC plan, I'd let her go until she can decide what the f she's gonna do. That OM won't be lookin' so good after a few weeks, trust me.

Have you exposed your wife's A to anyone other than her mother? Is the OM married? If yes, does his wife know? What about your wife's boss? Co-workers? Friends?

I'll stop here 'cuz I have no other suggestions for you until you decide to put your foot down and make your wife accountable for her actions. Patience can enter in AFTER the NC plan is in place.

All my best,

KJ

KJ and Sun -

Thanks for posting. Look back through some of the posts on this thread and you'll see that WW has agreed to NC and to work on the marraige. She agreed on Sunday to tell OM that they couldn't "Be Friends". On Monday she quit her job - which is now complicated by work's offer to give her a 2 month LOA. See previous posts for more detail on this.

Monday she also agreed to write a NC letter. I asked her when and she said "this week". Friday is her last day at work. She says that the R with OM complicates things for her at work since they work on projects together and she wanted to drop the NC on him right before she left. Which seems reasonable to me. I was looking for feedback on this but I have not yet got any. Again, read through my previous posts for the whole story.

So TODAY when she walked out to talk to OM she told him it was over and that she needed him to leave her alone while she worked on her M.

She's doing everything I asked her for. Now that she's told me she ended it with OM I will ask her to write the NC letter - will wait for the right moment, mood is everything with this woman - and will talk to her about what NC means and how any contact will set the recovery back. I'll re-read the NC portion of SA.

Are there any other parameters I should outline for NC?

I'm going to work on getting her onto the phone with SH next week.

I really do feel like I'm making progress. I cannot push WW too hard because she withdraws big time. So I'm gently leading her. I'm understanding, per Just Learning, that I'm fighting a battle and not a war. A couple weeks ago I was pushing the heck out of her. Since I've taken a step back I've seen progress. Am I deluded??

Since she's agreed to NC I have to give her the opportunity to prove that she can go NC right?

WW is going to see her mother for a month. Taking the kids. I've exposed to her M - WW doesn't know yet but will when she gets there - and M is VERY pro-marriage and is the best thing for WW now in terms of helping to undo some of the fog thinking that will be going on. Her M's seems like a good place for WW to be during recovery. I asked for feedback on her trip too but got no replies. What do you think?

I would definitely say we are not in recovery until the NC contact letter is sent. All of these things are happening relatively quickly. As recently as Saturday we were at a stalemate with me asking for NC and her refusing to NC until she quit her job - which at that time was a fuzzy date set sometime in the future.

KJ -

Didn't answer your question. I have exposed to her M only. No one else. At this point since she's agreed to NC I was going to use exposure as a pressure point should she break NC.

OMW found out a week before I did, threw him out and served him with DV papers on his birthday 3/29. I've spoken with her and gotten a little insight into his personality but outside of that she's no help.

Are you sure that W going to her mothers is really a good idea? Do you have a choice?

Seems like a bad idea to me for 2 reasons: (a) you won't be there to see what she is doing - and who knows what her mother will think after W talks to her, and (b) you won't be there to work on your M in person - to try to meet her EN's.

MDC,

Sounds as if things are progressing nicely. Stay the course. The OM is pulling out all of the stops and he will start to LB himself if your W continues on her present course. YOU be her hero now, and I think you will be fine later. You are doing a nice job of listening to her. You don't have to agree with what she says but you must repect it.

God Bless,

JL

I agree with KariJean. You need to be firm about the NC. Your WW won’t do it on her own without your firm insistence.

I think your WW is a love addict. Love addicts use other people to get an emotional high. What this means is that she has relationships based in fantasy.

It is important for you to know this because if she does leave you for the other guy, this same thing will happen to him eventually. She will leave him for another high with someone else. A big part of love addiction is not taking responsibility for one’s life, one’s actions. That is why she is blaming you. In truth, a relationship not lived in fantasy but in reality can address and work through the issues that unfortunately drive many people into affairs.

Love addicts never learned how to develop and maintain intimate connection with people in their life. Meaningful connection means knowing and being known, being accepted with your flaws, etc. This is important because while the love addict is chasing the next intimate connection, they are missing out on real meaningful connection they could have if they worked on the pain driving their negative behavior.

In a healthy, non-addict relationship, she wouldn’t leave you for some one else. She would learn how to communicate her needs, you would communicate yours, you’d both reach out to each other and connect meaningfully. That may be something you have to work on together.

A book that I really found useful that helped clear some of the crap out of my own thinking, as the FWW, was “When you love too much” by Steven Arturburn. It deals both with love and sex addiction. It helped me realize that the “special” love I thought I had with my OM was stereotypical and common among love addicts and their affairs. Once I realized the love I thought I had was actually something other than I thought, my bad thinking patterns started to get unglued. I sought a IC. I started working on why I couldn’t connect meaningfully outside of a sexual-love addict relationship.

MDC,

You ARE making great strides! Sorry I was so hard on you in my last post! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Gotta tell you, even though you believe her mom is going to be a big help, I disagree with your wife going there, without you, for a month. Two reasons. One, she has open opportunities to contact OM (even though it would most likely be via telephone). ANY contact with OM strikes the NC plan dead, and she'll have to start all over. I had contact after NC was put in place, and it's true, you really do go back to day 1. Second, if she's away for a month, you aren't going to be able to work on the recovery of your M together, and it needs to be done TOGETHER. It's quite difficult to meet EN's, making deposits into each other's love banks, when you are physically apart. I'd also recommend YOU tell your wife that you have discussed this A with her mother. No secrets, practice radical honesty here. The fact you've done this without telling your wife, may just drive a wedge between you two when she finds this out. Maybe not, but I know I would've been pissed if it were me!

Just because your wife has agreed to NC, don't get too confident that things are going to start looking up now. As a FWW, I can tell you, there's nothing more difficult than going through withdrawl and fog-thinking. I think these topics get downplayed on this forum sometimes, because BS's can't relate, but believe me, the emotions a WS goes through during this time are exhaustingly schizophrenic in nature. One day you'll be able to feel how committed she is to recovery, the next day (or hour) you'll think it's all over and she's moving out. That's what I mean by feeling schizophrenic.

Getting her to talk to other FWW's on here would be great. Getting her to speak with SH would be even greater. My H and I have been talking to SH for several weeks now, and I know we wouldn't be making the progress we are, if it weren't for him. We can read all we want, but when it comes to putting your knowledge to work, Steve makes it so clear what you need to do. Not EASY, but clear.



You bettcha! Promising not to have contact is not enough. As SH would instruct her to do, she needs a plan in place on how she is going to respond if certain things happen that will test her strength in adhering to her NC promise. Some examples would be;

1) If OM calls me, I will say NOTHING and hang up. I will then tell my H he called.
2) If OM stops by my house, I will not answer the door. I will ask my H to answer the door. If my H isn't home, I will tell him about the incident later.
3) I will let my H know my whereabouts at all times. He can call me anytime, any place, and I will not mind being "checked up on."

Try to come up with about 10 different scenerios. The above are 3 of mine that I still review monthly with my H.

A STRONG recommendation I have for you, is to make every effort to meet as many EN's of hers as you can, immediately. This is very difficult for many BS's because the believe the WS owes it to THEM to meet THEIR EN's because, after all, the WS got you into this horrible mess, they should be the ones to meet MY EN's!! Bad way of thinking, and it'll get you nowhere. The most difficult part of this task is the fact that your wife might not even attempt to meet any of your EN's because she's in withdrawl and having many moments of fog-thinking. This sucks big time, but until she's thinking more rationally, there really isn't anything you're gonna do about it. This is where a good IC comes in handy for you, because you'll want to speak to someone about how all of this makes you feel.

I don't envy where you and your wife are at. To be encouraging though, my H and I have been in recovery for only a little over 2 months, and feeling like you guys are right now, seems like several months ago. So keep up the good work, it's all going to be worth it when you end up with a better M than what you had pre-A!

God bless,

KJ

WWs want to stay in contact with the OM I think in part because of fear that their BS won’t really be sincere about changes to meet her EN. This is what I was thinking as an addicted WW. I am not saying it’s right or justified. But I think that’s their thinking.

What if they quit the affair and the marriage just ends up causing them greater misery? That’s the thinking.

That’s why even as my affair wound down and even now in withdrawal I need to hear over and over and over from my BS that he wants to do his best to meet my EN.

Maybe some WWs are different, I don’t know.

But, it helps me takes responsibility for my crap, for the ways I hurt our marriage with the affair and prior to the affair, when my BS stands up and does the difficult and takes responsibility for his part. In fact, he has won my admiration and renewed my love by doing so. He is giving me somebody to fall in love with.

As simple as it sounds, it goes back to the Love Bank. His loving behavior, especially when I don’t deserve it, adds love units to my bank. But I know a lot of BSs aren’t going to be able to extend love like that to their WWs. It is very hard to do.

I also want to say that I am sorry for seeming so indifferent in my posts about the pain of BSs. I am sorry. It is certainly not how I feel. The pain caused to my BS is horrible, and affairs are never justified. Whether the WWs think they’re justified, well of course it feels that way to the WW. But they are not.

I post here only because I want to help in some way. I want to help others who have been hurt the way my BS has been hurt. I guess maybe it is an attempt to make better my own crappy behavior. But maybe by offering WW perspective BSs can figure out what misjudged thinking the WW has. I am still figuring a lot of stuff out and I know that maybe I have a lot of stuff wrong.

KariJean,

How do you know all this good stuff? Wow, you have it figured out. I wish I understood things better. Something I want to know, how do you get your H to meet your EN? My husband really wants to, but honestly, I think talking to me just stresses him out. Maybe I should start a new post about this. He just has so much pain all the time. So I know on my part I have to be patient, since I created all this turmoil.

I hear ya sister! My exact purpose here too. I find it helps to repeat, in writing and in practice, the positive things I've learned. I also find the different perspectives interesting, especially of the BS's. All I know for sure, is that I'm one lucky girl to have the BS that I do!! Please keep posting, I don't wanna end up being the last of the FWS's on here!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

KJ

Hey, MDC...thanks for the invite. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey, JL's here...you don't need me! LOL. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Okay...back to the start of the thread:

"Isn't that a legitimate feeling for a WS to have if the BS has not been treating them well for years?" Legitimate? You mean you believe that others create resentment in you...that it is reasonable? Wouldn't that make you powerless to the power of others to make you, do to you, even giving you your own feelings?

"So it seems reasonable that she's putting herself first and not me."

There is no reasonable in resentment. You might buy into it because your previous mistreatment of your WW, which most likely came from resentment you created in yourself, which gives you absolution from resentment if she caused it you, then you caused it in her...and the cycle continues.

"And then all of the sudden the BS starts treating them great!" So our feelings are dependent on how others treat us...for good, bad and inbetween?

"I mean it's been only 4 weeks since I turned the corner. And she's been building resentment towards me for a LONG time." Humans choose to create resentment...like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die...and she was doing this long before you ever met or married her. People who use resentment as permission, as payoff, righteous rightness, many things...have used it for themselves all their lives. A coping skill. A deadly one.

Affairs are entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.

You can say that about all addictions, too. Can't you?

So...injecting respect and seeing everything as choice helps you realize human limits and power...you can only control you...can't cause or cure anybody of anything...just you. You own our own thoughts, feelings and beliefs...'cuz MDC? It IS all about you. By God's design. Own what is yours for you...emotions are information about your own beliefs...not in reaction to others, but directly from your own beliefs. We aren't being done to...pain comes from within (along with every other emotion)...not from the outside. They are signals...pay attention to them, but it would be fatal to run your life guided by a traffic stoplight, wouldn't it?

Your WW acknowledges something other WS's usually don't...that you are being hurt with every contact...and that she knows it and is aware it isn't her belief to do it, but that she's doing it anyway.

You could not have prevented your WW's A...you don't have that power. Remains her choice and it looks like she knows that. She is using the excuse of external pressure to decide her life...dangerous. Awful. Self-destructive. She's doing that, you aren't. She is valuing work and her image above her H, family and her true self. Take it from someone who's done this...ouch, that's gonna hurt.

I know SH talked to you about it and others...wanted to emphasize this because allowing yourself to ponder otherwise leads back to the enmeshment of you and your wife, with inhuman powers and no boundaries...so injecting respect says to get this, get it well enough you do not allow yourself to entertain fantasies...which is how WS's get wayward, also.

Reminding you: "Becuase she has to be so many things to so many people." There are no has to be's in life, only choices. She chooses to live externally, to commit herself in many directions, which erases the time she has to spend on herself, facing her self. She chooses. There's a payoff. This is part of the justification we use...can't get to entitlement without a whole lot of sacrifice and deserving. Keep that in mind. I don't want you to get there, either.

"Which I think is crap because I am a father, husband and employee too. If she needs something of her own she can take up a hobby. Right?" Each time you compare someone else to your prespective, you are DJing...their experience is there's...watch yourself here...if you hold others to your standards, then you're being disrespectful. Your standards are yours...for you, about you...not others.

This is like resentment...feels righteous and true when you're feeling really lost. Don't swallow this battery acid that tastes like kool aid...please. For you, know you choose to be yourself, and your roles.. a father, husband, employee, son, brother, friend...the list goes one. Your choice. No have-tos...right?

"but said she'd do it if I wanted her to." Do not buy into these offers...they are poison. Repeat, "I hear you would choose to talk to SH only if I wanted you to because you, yourself, do not want to, is that correct?" Taking sacrifices are as dangerous as offering them...do not aid in another's self-destruction.

"I respect you will choose to either speak with SH or not based on your beliefs, not my desires."

"I know she wants to get out of this without any mud on her." Please don't DJ her...comes back as mud on you. If you believe in her shoes you wouldn't want any mud on you, then own that. Don't assume or mindread...which are two forms of disrespect and signs of enmeshment. Ferreting out these thoughts and perspectives is critical to your personal recovery. I think I'm slapping you to save you here.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"There was an EA 2 years ago and I let her off. Stuffed my hurt and resentment. And look where we are now!! Same place!!!" Yes, about you and your choices...you did not confront, dig, discovery or become aware of the dynamics in your marriage...your choice. You're doing it differently now. Your choices affected hers...she didn't get to her stuff either. That was HER choice. No one lets anyone off in a marriage...there is true forgiveness or rugs with large elephants under them.

Hey, did you know you asked for the advice of a serial cheater? I'm telling you this from mine and my DH's perspectives...and how it only takes one time, owning your life, to stop all the garbage from before...I'm living proof. People are worth all the time, dedication and introspection they're willing to give themselves...don't get in their way.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

About abuse...my belief...mental abuse...DJs..." 'What's with the attitude'. I said I was hurting. Shouln't have said that. She said she couldn't take it anymore. She's not in love with me (we both know that. I'm not in in love with her either - the love is gone) and she wants a divorce." It is subtle, disrespectful, and you are used to accepting it and handing it out, as well. Your emotions will signal abuse...coming from the inside and the outside...listen for them. Part of personal recovery is learning where we abuse, and finding out it isn't part of being human...but permission to be less than.

You think you shouldn't have been honest because of her response...when your honesty has nothing to do with anyone else...it's yours. If you only choose to be honest based on possible responses, then you're living through others, betraying yourself, and living dishonestly, manipulatively, aren't you?

Tell me again why you didn't expose to her job? Because they would lose their jobs? Would this be response-based choice? Is truth response-based? Being honest to be honest, live with pure intent, make choices from your code, sounds like what you want to do. I think living manipulatively has taken its toll. Choose well. I know you can.

I think you confuse truth and applying pressure...pressure can be felt as a side-effect of exposure; prescribe truth anyway.

"Yes my situation is different because when I press her she flys into a rage and says she wants a divorce. She's bullying me because she knows I don't want out." See about choosing from your code and making response-based choices. Your job isn't to press her...it is to know and state your truth. What do you do with evidence? Ponder it. Know her actions and choices. Not to confront her, but you. You are still enmeshed in her, automatically believe her, yet have evidence which clearly states not to. Your choice. You can listen and repeat, be respectful, and choose to hear and not believe. Always your choice. You're human.

When you exposed to OMW...did you tell her about MB?

"I'm trying to get outside help in an effort to save our marriage" she'll say "Well why are you trying to save it NOW. Where have you been the past 2 years?" Tell your truth, own your past, without excuse..."...and I'm here now, with new knowledge of how relationships work, how much I fear my own fear, ignore what I love most, and why I neglect, punish, blame and resent."

You're her lighthouse...through you, she will have her way back...to better.

Make it all about you, 'k? Truth and you. You and your truth. Stable ground...where a fertile Plan A can bloom.

"When she told me all this I bit my tongue and said nothing but - "This must be hard on you."

I will say that WW did tell me - rarely calmly, mostly in an arguement - what she was missing from the M: affection, help around the house, respect.

WW is also very hung up on the fact that I changed when the OM came into the picture."

Put that hopper on your head...all of her words go into it and you do not allow them into your brain until you know you have a choice to believe or not...respect isn't believing her...it is knowing she is separate from you and her views do not define you. All the abuse, back and forth, defining each other, is where this comes from. When you stop, it stops. Know that you have that human power...you can do this.

Choose not to believe your WW...respect her truth...it's her...her perception...not your reality. Know this is hers and keep your greedy hands off. You have enough of all your own.

In your corner,

LA


Hey 19...

Reacting to blame isn't ownership. I detailed out all my choices which with my present knowledge, I would love to be able to go back and choose differently. This was owning step by step, which shows you really get it...not just that you didn't act perfectly...you may have been doing the best you knew how pre-A...which is how you forgive yourself...but it won't go to your validity in the present, with your changes, until you know for yourself and then share, what it is you have learned, have remorse for, and your commitment to you and to her to stay aware, learning and growing...

Just thought I'd throw that in...there are trigger words, "Well, I wasn't perfect. Sorry. Won't do it again." These are our inner kids in the time-out corner...when what you really want to be is a mature, owning, powerful adult...and you want desperately for your WW to be! Change first. You're worth it.

LA

WOW, LovingAnyway,

Your post really hit a chord with me. Wow....

LA - Thank you for your post. I will digest and respond.

Quick response to your Q about exposure. Yes I have not exposed becuase I'm afraid of the response. So it's a response-based choice not to expose. But I'm not 100% comfortable in the truth either. What is my truth for exposing? I need to have it ready for myself and her after exposure. Right now I feel my best answer would be - "Because the Harleys and MB board say it's the best thing. And they know." That's not the right reason to expose. I can't find my truth in the exposure so I have not felt good about it. Can someone help me see it?

I'm afraid already that 100% NC is not going to happen. WW was offered a leave-of-absence when she resigned and because she loves her job it's what she wants to do. She's ready to drop an NC letter but what good is it going to do if she's on an LOA at her mother's and on corporate email and he can send her a message? He'll always have a reason to contact her - can make up something work-related and worm his way back into her life that way.

I asked her how she could possibly go back to the same job after a month or 2 of LOA if he was still there. Remember she said she had NOT dropped NC on him because it would have been disruptive - emails, walk-bys from him and such.

She said that by the time she'd gotten back he'd have time to get over it and they "might" not be working directly together any more.

Oh... I can see I'm setting up for failure. I should give her a vacation with her mother if that what she needs but I can see now that NC is not going to fly and we will not be able to begin recovery as long as she's working at that job. Ouch. I was hopeful.

So per LA what is the truthful thing to do? Tell her that I feel we cannot recover unless there is absolutely no contact and that cannot happen as long as she's in the job? Is that my truth?? Even though I told her already that I thought we could "work through it". It just hit me (because I saw an email from him pop up in her in-box) that the OM is not going to give up. He told her he as "too much respect" for her to pursue her while she's in recovery with me. I don't believe it.

Oh I just feel horrible after feeling so hopeful 2 hours ago.