rprynne and MT...

I fear that this is actually a BIG history rewrite...MT, I know that you will not necessarily agree with this perception...It reminds me of my saying that for thirteen years I had been thinking constantly of my OM(high school/college bf)...the truth is that I had thought of him on occasion as you would anyone from your past...when I first posted here, however, I wanted everyone and myself to believe it had been a daily thing...WHY? Because that would have fallen in place with the age old soulmate stuff and would have fed and nurtured my rationalizations and justifications...It was Dorry who pointed out that that was indeed a load of crap, and if that were true that I never would have married Mr. W in the first place! When she said that, I didn't want to hear it...I rejected it, but the seed had been planted and her pointing that out helped me to get real and be honest with myself! She knows how grateful to her that I am...

rprynne, I think that you've hit on something...when you allow someone to meet your emotional needs, romantic love will naturally attach...it's the ALLOWING that is key...Something very powerful for me was that if I had been single, OM is most definitely NOT who I would have chosen to even date...NO WAY!!! OM could, in fact, have been anyone...who he was was insignificant...all that actually mattered at the time was my own selfish sojourn towards hedonistic escapism from adulthood and it's responsibilites... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />


Mrs. W

I read the Hendrix book long before I heard about MB. It seemed to contain valuable insights to me. I wonder too if there is a way for them to co-exist.

Hendrix explains why we are attracted to certain people.

MB tells me how to make the best of my M with the person I am now married to.

Mrs. W - So just I don't confuse anyone, MT did not say she never loved me. I just think she sometimes feels that and does not want to talk about it. I believe she is still very concerned about hurting my feelings.

If she did feel that, I agree that would be a big rewrite. I would concede it has been a long time since we were "in love". Perhaps we were losing some of that even before we got married. We dated for over 4 years before our wedding. That said, I know the feelings were there, because...well, I remember.

I guess it is time for me to jump in now...My question dealt more with the individual ENs not the program. I think my FWS has stated that I don't feel like affection is an important EN for me. To bring in the famous SH exercise example-why do the bench press when what one needs is to do the leg press? Everyone is not the same when it comes to EN and I was more courious if the ENs SH has us working on are standard for everyone or if he picked them for us-given the fact that affection was never that high up on my questionnaire I have to wonder.

Certainly Harley says that Affection, Sexual Fulfillment, Conversation and Recreational Companionship are the very essence of a romantic relationship. But he also gets you to fill out EN questionaires so your specific EN's can be determined. In our case, these needs were in our top 5 but not for each of us. But it still means we do those 4 because they are at least important for 1 of us.

Harley makes a lot of material available free on this site. He wants people to save their marriages. He provides these forums free as well. His principles work.

Rpyrne - 15 hours is the thing that is killing your relationship. I am glad you have a plan to address that.

I think, as with most things in life, everything in moderation is the key. Most of us don't follow a precise script in our marriage/lives, at work or as parents so it's not too difficult to see why one set of rules doesn't work for everybody. However, some adaptation or moderation of those rules may work for the majority(always allowing for that wayward 1% lol).

In my situation WH has found IC to be extremely helpful and even though he was practicing MB principles before has come to understand why they are important. Without his reflection on childhood issues he was applying something he didn't really believe in nor understand fully. His behavior has taken a drastic positive turn since IC and his more refined understanding of himself.

So, perhaps some combination can also work for you.

rprynne & MT,
Would you please excuse me for a threadjack?

Mrs. W... I wasn't ignoring you.. I somehow missed your earlier post... and just saw it now.



First of all, please don't ever hesitate to post to me. We may have some differences of opinions on things, but I'm "smart" enough to know that I still have a lot to learn... and open minded enough to at least consider what ANYBODY here might have to say to me. (By the way, your last post to me on my own thread was very kind and I never did thank you for that. So thank you).

As to the matter at hand... I do see what you're saying.
But I don't agree. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I think apl described it very well in her post above.

In my case, my childhood issues include: a workaholic father... a conflict-avoiding, passive-agressive mother who was constantly lying in order to "keep the peace"... and an older brother who sexually abused me, followed by my mother's decision bo blame me for it and keep it a family secret.

Now, I certainly didn't have the worst childhood in the world -- far from it. But I did learn some defense/coping mechanisms that make it very hard for me to let my guard down and be intimate with anyone. And that is, by definition, a marital issue. In other words, until I work through those things... I can do the good marriage behaviors... go through the motions... but I won't be able to be emotionally intimate with my H.

--SC

SC - Something about that worries me a little. What concerns me is the statement of "I won't be able to". Maybe this is just semantics, but it sounds like a decision you've made about your paradigm of the world. I'm sure you didn't make that decision without a lot thought, but does it not become a self fulfilling prophecy? Does that not make you contruct (and/or at least reinforce) barriers to intimacy until such time as you worked through those issues?

What if your paradigm was "In other words, until I am able to be emotionally intimate with my H, I can do the good self exploration... go through the motions... but I won't be able to work through those things."

Perhaps, if this was your map, you could complete both journeys more efficiently.

I would think that the research says either paradigm is plausible, and it comes down to which one you would choose to have faith in.

rprynne,

I had to read, and re-read your post a few times to get it to sink in. It's the kind of thing I'll need to chew on for awhile. I think I do get the jist of what you're saying.

Problem is, the barriers are already there (no need to construct them). I think they're heavily reinforced by fear. And I've become so accustomed to having them there that I have a hard time even seeing them. How can you tear something down that you can't even see clearly?

I understand about conquoring fear by confronting it. In the past I have conquored my fear of snakes and heights this way -- by holding lots of snakes and going bungee jumping. So you'd think I'd be able to conquor my fear of intimacy... by being intimate, right? Isn't that essentially what you're saying? The idea has certainly crossed my mind... but so far, I guess my fight or flight reaction has been winning out.

I'm not even sure I'm making any sense.. but thank you for your insight. I really will give it more thought.

I'm feeling kinda bad for the threadjack, though. MT, are you getting your question answered here?

--SC

rprynne and MT...Yet again, pardon the threadjack...hoping that maybe you guys can gain from this line of discussion as well...

Cookie...Glad to hear that you are open...I too know that I can learn from everyone here...and you're very welcome for my last post to you on the other thread...I meant it sincerely...ANYWAY...Based on your above view, do you believe that it was something in you that allowed you to choose to have an affair or do you believe that something in your marriage was to blame for that choice? What specifically allowed for that choice? Or don't you believe that it was a choice at all?

Mrs. W

I feel a little like I'm getting lured into a spider web here... but what the heck.

Clearly, it was a choice. I'm not even sure how anyone could claim otherwise.

Now, I don't know that I have 100% figured out what allowed me to make that choice... But I'd say it was a combination of things. Here are some of the things I've identified so far: Near or at the top of the list would be low self-esteem and the feeling that I needed some sort of validation that I was attractive/desirable etc. There's also this addiction to adrenaline/excitement that I seem to have. Plus, personality -- my perfectionist... achievement oriented... highly self-critical tendencies.

Now, it might seem that the last thing I listed would actually PREVENT me from having an affair. But bear with me here. Are you familiar with the enneagram? It's a description of the nine predominant personality types. I actually fit really well into at least two of the categories. (so maybe the real problem is multiple personality disorder, lol) Seriously, though... those two categories are type #1 the Perfectionist/Reformer... and type #3 the Achiever/Performer.

Here's a partial description of a typical type #1 functioning at an average level: " Afraid of making a mistake: everything must be consistent with their ideals. Become orderly and well-organized, but impersonal, puritanical, emotionally constricted, rigidly keeping their feelings and impulses in check. Often workaholics—"anal-compulsive," punctual, pedantic, and fastidious."

And here's a bit about a type #3: "Highly concerned with their performance, doing their job well, constantly driving self to achieve goals as if self-worth depends on it. Terrified of failure. Compare self with others in search for status and success. Become image-conscious, highly concerned with how they are perceived. Begin to package themselves according to the expectations of others and what they need to do to be successful."

(The source on this is www.enneagraminstitute.com. The phrases that I made bold are some of the things that I think contributed to my choice to have an affair)

By being so hard on myself for so long, trying never to make a mistake, keeping my emotions in check, pretending all was well and I was doing great etc. -- it all added up to a big fat self-induced pressure cooker. And I think on some level, I was desperate to escape all that.

All that being said, however, I still don't understand how you can say that personal issues are totally seperate from marital issues. Some of the same things that contributed to my decision to have an affair have ALSO contributed to the sorry state of my marriage. And I'm quite sure I would not have figured out most of this stuff on my own. It has only been with the help of my IC that I have been able to identify most of this stuff. And what's that gread Dr. Phil quote? Something like "You can't fix what you don't acknowledge".

--SC

This is a really interesting thread.

I am just unclear about a few things though. A few have applied...(do correct me if I am wrong)

Positive learnt behaviour has an impact upon a marriage

though

Negative learnt behaviour does not.

If I may try to explain my mode of thinking.

We all have thoughts and feelings, they all arrive in ourselves through many varying factors..life stage/life event/gender/sex/education levels/value and belief systems.ect.ect

These thoughts and feelings lead to our own behaviours. What we have to do is find a balance with them.

SC mentioned her childhood..Do I believe issues from a childhood can interfer with adult relationships ?I certainly do, without a doubt...

can they cause an affair?...well we are all given freedom of choice, however because of our thoughts and feelings due to our previous enviroments, we maybe swayed due to the intensity of those thoughts and feelings, especially if there is a trigger event and especially if there is unresolved issues swinging around in there.

Now you maybe wondering, or maybe your not...did I/we use the MB concept? Yes and no. It was rather a little bit of this and a litle bit of that.As some concepts on here would not work for me as some would not work for him.


and; I am happy to say my husband and I find ourselves now in a very strong relationship.

Max

Cookie...

I'm sorry that you felt that you were being baited...I promise that that was not my intent at all...I just believe that asking questions is the best way to allow others to come to their own conclusions...things that we derive from ourselves are much more powerful than what others tell us...that's the reason that both counselors and sales people ask questions...

Yes, I am somewhat familiar with the enneagramm...I'm a 7, Mr. W is a 3...won't get into the "wing" stuff as I just don't have a good enough grasp on it to do so...

The reason that I separate marital issues and personal issues when it comes to the choice that I made to have an affair is because that choice was all about me...I believe that all affairs are about the WS...I obviously didn't go and consult Mr. W about that choice, as you didn't consult Mr. Cookie...the things that you listed are all personal issues...low self esteem, fear of failure, self worth, perfectionism...those are all yours...you see that I'm sure ...now Cookie, I understand that the state of the marriage does leave you vunerable to an affair, which means that your husband was equally vunerable...The point is that when opportunity did present itself to you, you chose to have an affair...that choice is about you and your issues...the vulnerability based on the state of your marriage I'd say you both own...so perhaps you could say that each of your personal issues combined to put your marriage in such a state...but the choice is on you...I think that you see that...you and I are perhaps saying the same things in a different ways...I dunno...I just believe that the OP is really insignificant...as in, the OP could have been anyone at all...who you are would have remained the same...it wouldn't have mattered who presented the opportunity(within reason), the feelings weren't about the OP, the feelings weren't about your husband, the feelings were about you, right? About how you felt about you...

Cookie, had you have chosen to leave your marriage and go with the OP, can you see that your same issues would have caused the same type problems for you? That you would have ended up a pretty much in the same place...the grass would have been no greener...you would have eventually gotten to the same place in that relationship that you did with Mr. Cookie and then would have stalled...and if opportunity presented itself you would have made the same choice with another OP...vicious cycle...think about that...all players would have been different in that situation except for you...If Mr. Cookie weren't around, would you still have the same personal issues? It is you that makes the difference...because you can only control you...

I understand the escape part that you mentioned as well...I believe that affairs are most definitely about escape...I believe that many of them have to do with stunted development...from yes, childhood issues...the want to escape from adult responsibilities-especially if we don't feel that we have achieved all that we should have in our adult role(perfectionism?)...

Cookie, I'm still taking personal inventory...I certainly don't have all the answers, but I do know that my choice was completely about me...and what's inside of me...Mr. W did nothing to drive me to that choice..and I also know this, there is no escaping from myself...I will always be exactly who I am no matter who I am with...I chose Mr. W...I should have remained resolute in that choice...I failed...I choose him now, and I KNOW that I will NEVER again choose otherwise...I love him...and now I know that he loves me...now I know that I am lovable-I didn't always know that, and that was not about Mr. W, even if it's what I perceived about him, those were my perceptions about his feelings, now I understand that I am responsible for my perceptions...that's big, in fact that's HUGE for me...Today is one year post d-day for us...I am so incredibly grateful for where we are...I continue to learn and grow...We continue to learn and grow together...it is very much a process...

Best,

Mrs. W

SC and Mrs. W - I think your pretty close to OT for it not to be a threadjack.

SC - Feel free to chew on the point. I don't know if I'm talking about conquering fear or not. Maybe.

Its more about your chosen paradigm. The definition:

1) One that serves as a pattern or model.
2) A set or list of all the inflectional forms of a word or of one of its grammatical categories: the paradigm of an irregular verb.
3) A set of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitutes a way of viewing reality for the community that shares them, especially in an intellectual discipline.

Mostly meaning #3. You (we all) have a set of assumptions, concepts, etc. for viewing reality. Not to get to esoteric, but reality only exists through the lens we use to view it. That lens is our paradigm.

At some point along the way, you were faced with two constraints to your happiness. (at least two you've talked about). 1) Childhood issues 2) Lack of intimacy in your M.

After, I assume much research and introspection, you have decided, based on your assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that you must address issue 1 before issue 2. Your current paradigm supports that as the right decision. As long as you keep that paradigm, you may construct and/or reinforce barriers. The lens will magnify data that supports this paradigm and cloud data that refutes it. Be careful, I'm not talking about being open minded or anything, I'm talking about feelings, intrepreting those feelings and translating those feelings into reality.

For example, if you wake up tommorrow and feel very intimate with your H, with your current paradigm, you are more likely (not definately, but more likely) to intreprate that as false, not real. Why? Your paradigm of reality says its impossible for you to feel initimate with your H at this time because you haven't solved issue 1. It can't be real intimacy. I think that is a constructed/reinforced barrier.

What if after all the research and introspection, you had come to the conclusion that you can't fix issue 1 before you fix issue 2. (Which I believe is tangent to the Harley approach, but that's neither here nor there). Would it not raise your level of motivation to resolve your issues with your M?

Again, I don't know which is right. Its just a question. My main concern is that (this is probably very true if your are a perfectionist) is that if you stage your personal growth (childhood issues first, then M issues) 1) you may never feel you've perfectly solved your childhood issues and 2) you may block out progress in your M.

Would it not be advisable to address your childhood issues via a path that involves becoming very intimate, open, honest, with your H and then letting him help you on the path to resolving your childhood issues. It would seem like when you got to the end of that journey, you would have issue 1 and 2 solved, and have an incredibly strong bond with your H.

Anyway, my main point was, at least in your mind, don't tell yourself you can't recover intimacy with your H until you solve issue 1. At a minimum, say its challenging, but leave your mind open to the possibility.

Dictionary.com is pretty well cool eh?

Max

PS rprynne ..smartcookie has in a previous post( apologies if this offends you SC using you as an example as such ) given a very good indication issue 1, is still a very big issue. LISTEN

or at least read.


Max

Max - I believe I did listen and I'm certain I read. If you read my posts, nothing I said discounted the size, scope, or nature of issue number 1. Nor did anything I say advise that SC may not be 100% correct in assuming that issue 1 one needs to be resolved first. In fact, I went to some lengths to express that I don't know the answer. I merely posed several questions.

I orginally responded to point out my opinion that if one assumes one must solve 1 issue before another can be addressed, then it will be a self fulfilling prophecy, that could create barriers to progress on the second issue. That statement implies nothing as to the whether the original assumption is correct.

PS - yes, dictionary.com is nice. It saves time to cut and paste rather than typing from memory.

I know I love Dictionary.com...but thats our secret right?

I read your post actually as to 'what you would do' and 'what ifs' if ifs, would ( could )happen.



That's your take...thats what your mind is thinking in this situation...sc is not you nor your situation.


I do agree with your last paragraph though...negative self talk will eventually bring us down, one way or another.

I have reason to believe sc will get through this.

Max

Quick note to Mrs. W. -- yes. yes. yes. We are in agreement. But we have strayed very far off topic, I'm afraid. To summarize... I think you were trying to get me to see that my personal/emotional problems, rather than the state of my marraige, were what led me to have an affiar (which I already knew and understood)... and that those problems would still be with me even if I had split-up with Mr. C. Again I agree. The point *I* was originally trying to make is that they're STILL with me even as I try to recover my marriage... and, in fact, I believe they could be a make-or-break factor in whether Mr. C and I ARE ABLE to have the kind of relationship we want. As JL so susinctly put it when I first wrote about my childhood stuff here and questioned whether it was even appropriate to bring it up on a marriage forum, he responded that it was very relevant because: "...it affects your ability to give and receive love." How true! And I simply can't understand how something like that could be deemed "irrelevant" to attempts to recover a marriage. (see madmax's first post near the top/middle of this page. She supports my point very well I think).

Rprynne, thank you so much for taking the time to elaborate on your point to me. I get it now (I think). It is a good point. The "example" you gave helped to bring it home, so to speak. I've got enough blocks to intimacy... built up over the last 30 years or so... without constructing new ones through an overly rigid approach to recovery. Got it.

Now... back to the matter at hand...

MT, I think I understand, generally, where you're coming from. Understand it, and EMPATHIZE with it. But the specific question you posed above is so vague... you'll have to forgive me if I make some assumptions that are not accurate, okay?

Here's what I'm gleaning from what you and rprynne have written: Your biggest struggle right now is your lack of romantic feelings -- that "spark" -- for your H, and a nagging doubt that they can be cultivated or recultivated. Also, you're wondering whether MB -- or certain parts of MB -- are the best way to achieve that... at least in part becuase you feel sort-of like a square peg being rammed into a round hole (someone who doesn't have a high need for affection being told that she needs affection).

Do I have that about right? If so, I'd like to offer up some thoughts for you to consider... but if not, I don't want to blather on and on about something that has no relevance to your situation. So let me know. If you want.

--SC

By the way, MT, I remember you from your very early posts, "wanting to run away", and I really can relate to much of what you're going through.

MT,

I have to admit that I have not been reading this thread carefully or closely.

However, I do want to share that, for us, Recovery has been lots of hard work and has taken lots of time.

It has taken a full THREE YEARS for my FWH's ROMANTIC LOVE for me to fully return.

THE 15 HOUR RULE was ESSENTIAL during EARLY RECOVERY. From my understanding this has not occurred for this couple..so, IMO, there should not be an expectation that the ROMANTIC LOVE would reoccur this soon...

BTW, both my FWH and I have major childhood issues....

The argument that my FWH and I had during our attendance at an IMAGO WORKSHOP about 10 years ago was over his insistence that his past had NOTHING to do with our "CURRENT" marital problems. He kept asking "how is this going to help us TODAY?" I thought he was being RESISTANT and LBed(was DEMANDING and YELLED)..too bad that I didn't know about MBers... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />