Ac2ally, I didn't say this (but I forgive you for thinking I did).

I am pleased to be forgiven over and over for my obtuse thinking

It's the wrong that's forgiven, for OUR OWN benefit.

huh?

So, really we're forgiving ourselves for villifying the wrongdoer rather than siezing an oppor2nity 2 grow.

what?

And the perceived wrongdoer in this case is my W, not RM (who is just "Pawn in game of Life").

completely lost

Okay.

Gotta run!

Will try again later.

Later!
-ol' 2long

'tater

Forgiveness is really for us. We don't tell someone to their face that we forgive them because that's like saying, I judged/blamed you and now I'm magnanimously forgiving you for what I judged or blamed you for. The person may not even feel they've done anything wrong - they may, in fact, blame us. Forgiving someone to their face is shaming, condescending and, yes, judgemental, not forgiving at all, unless, of course, they ask for our forgiveness.

Forgiveness is about letting go of resentment because, as I've heard in Al-Anon, resentment is like taking poison and expecting the other person to die. Resentment doesn't hurt the other person, it hurts us.

But, if as you say above, you thank the person (mentally) for the learning experience, one of the most important lessons may be that we don't want a person who would do what they did in our lives. Forgiving doesn't mean forgetting, giving 2nd, 3rd, 19th chances to, or allowing them to get close enough to harm us again. I hope I've finally learned this lesson, so I guess I can thank STBXWH for that!

Sorry threadjack below -

Trix, is Imago what brings about the chemistry between two people?

I haven't read the book but I keep hearing the word.

2long,

Hey, for what it's worth, I'm really glad you post here. I like the way you think, and I've gotten a lot out of your recent comments to MM.

And thank you for posting that quote on forgiveness from SC (The original "SC" I guess <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />). I agree with it wholeheartedly (also the clarification from LetSTry about how forgiveness is for the person DOING the foregiving... not the person BEING forgiven). It's the same conclusion I recently reached in IC -- stated much more eloquently than I stated it -- with regard to some stuff that happened to me in my FOO when I was a kid. I'm not sure I've reached a state of total forgiveness yet... but I'm beginning to see how my struggles around it can indeed be turned into gifts of spiritual growth.

Anyway, just wanted you to know that with your "ramblings", you have actually helped a fellow MBer more than you probably realize. Thank you.

--SC

Weaver -- "yes" to your question about IMAGO (and good luck this weekend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

Thanks 'cookie!

I feel the same way about 2long...he gave me the courage to believe in what I believe, if that makes sense.

Kind of like knowing that there are kindred souls out there who have examined their own mind and life...and are not afraid to come to their own conclusions, and that somehow gives others the power/freedom to do the same.

Yo bud -

I can really identify with the desire to ween yourself off of this forum. It's easy to quit! I've done it about a dozen times! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Regarding the "forgiveness" of unrepentent wrongdoers, I might use a different term, so it may simply be a matter of semantics. I don't even contemplate forgiveness of the infidels in my sitch since they haven't sought it. They have no need to since they didn't do anything wrong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Rather, I'm taking advantage of their stupidity by learning valuable life lessons and making a better life for myself as a result. It's kinda a conservation of energy thing - their debasement has allowed an equivalent amount of positive progression for me. (Don't ask me what happens if they repent and thus take back some "energy." That's where my analogy breaks down. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> )

Anyway, if you stick around, you could probably help on the upcoming controversy surrounding "Stork Theory." This is the notion that human babies don't come from the combination of egg and sperm as in the "theory" of sexual reproduction without total or some involvement of storks. It's simply too complex and statistically improbable that a human baby could form from sexual reproduction like the animals do it.

Evidence supporting the theory of the stork includes the following:

1. It is a scientifically established fact that the stork does exist. This can be confirmed by every ornithologist.

2. The alledged human fetal development contains several features that the theory of sexual reproduction is unable to explain.

3. According to the theory of sexual reproduction, children are a result of sexual intercourse. There are, however, several well documented cases where sexual intercourse has not led to the birth of a child.

4. Statistical studies in the Netherlands have indicated a positive correlation between the birth rate and the number of storks. Both are decreasing.

5. The theory of the stork can be investigated by rigorous scientific methods.

Polls indicate the following % of people believe,

Storks deliver all human babies fully formed — 53%

Sexual Reproduction, Storks affected the process — 23%

Sexual Reproduction, Storks did not affect the process — 17%

I am not stupid enough to participate in this poll - 7%

Stay tuned!

WAT

2long - unless you want "opposing" opinions regarding this sort of "forgiveness," I'll refrain from commenting about the obvious.

So let me simply say, as strange as it might sound, that I find myself in "agreement" with WAT's post....it's a ridiculous hypothesis REGARDLESS of what many choose to believe or despite how they might "intrepret" the same FACTS that we all see. Facts don't change, only our interpretation of them and our presuppositions that affect those interpretations we "accept" or "reject" changes.

So, in light of the above, the only comment I'll offer right now for you to "mull over" is in response to your closing postulate:

"The wrongdoer does not even know this has happened, and probably should not know." What a marvelous rationalization and justification for CONFLICT AVOIDANCE as the "solution" to difficult problems that SHOULD be faced. [color:"BLUE"]WHERE ARE THE OSTRICH'S WHEN WE NEED THEM!?!?!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I don't get it. Why does somenone have to seek forgiveness for you to grant it in your heart?

SC - I presume you were asking me and not FH.

I grant forgiveness in my brain, not my heart. I simply see forgiveness as a two way street. If someone is in "debt" to me, why should I erase that debt unsolicited unless I want to? In the infidels' case, I'm choosing not to because I have no personal need to do so. This seems pretty straight forward to me. To be honest, I haven't thought about it very much. I don't "dwell" on it. I don't even know how I'd react in the (very unlikely) event that forgiveness was sought.

WAT

SC - I, too, think you were directing your question to WAT. But in the chance that you meant to direct it to me, or even include me in the question, I'll offer this for you think about.

"Why does somenone have to seek forgiveness for you to grant it in your heart? " We, as Christians, are to "forgive as God has forgiven us" of our sins against Him. God, and how He forgives us, is the model. God does not "forgive us" to make Himself "feel better about Himself." God forgives us FOR and BECAUSE of Jesus Christ and what Christ did for us in paying the full penalty of sin. God forgives us when we REPENT, and do so through Christ as our Lord and Savior.

NOT dwelling on revenge, resentment, "getting even," etc. ARE pieces of forgiveness, but only pieces. NOT seeking revenge, not dwelling on the sin, not "Getting Even" are choices we CAN make regardless of whether or not we forgive the sinner, or regardless of whether or not they even seek or want our forgiveness.

We turn those "sinful responses" over to God and place the sinner in God's hands to reach or condemn as God sees fit. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God. Such a "release" to God is NOT a "bed of roses" for the sinner we so release. It's just that we follow God's directive to "be angry(righteous anger), but in your anger do not also sin"(use that righteous anger against sin against God to "excuse" our responding in sin).

"Forgiveness" of the variety you are referring to is really just self-denial that a heinous and unrepented of crime DID happen so that the reason for forgiveness does not have to be addressed. We forgive BECAUSE we, ourselves, have been forgiven an unpayably huge debt when we repented of OUR sins and accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. And we are to forgive those who have a debt with us when they repent and seek to have that debt forgiven. The rest is a shadowy attempt to humanistically mimic God's forgivenss of us when the weight of our own sins crushes us and brings us to repentance before God.

God bless.

FH - regardless of my basis for doing so, from a practical standpoint this description sounds exactly what I'm doing! Whether conscious or not, I've turned it all over to "external" places.

Wow, we CAN agree from time to time! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

We, we? Who is this "we".

Me, as a Christian, believe that our sinlessness is guaranteed by God...therefore there is NOTHING to forgive! And judgment is for God alone, who does not judge.

And this my Christian belief...and there was a time I didn' even want to call myself a Christian after being on this board and reading the religion threads, but you know what I am putting my CA away now too.

Not the same language/symbolism 2long would have used I am sure...but this is his thread about his journey and I don't believe he follows Christianity as his personal religion.

So, again who is this "we"?

weaver, perhaps this should be taken to it's own thread. The question I would have for you in return is WHERE, in Scripture, do you find that we are incapable of sinning AFTER accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior as you stated; "our sinlessness is guaranteed by God...therefore there is NOTHING to forgive! And judgment is for God alone, who does not judge."

If you would truly like to discuss this further, let's take a discussion of Christian belief to another thread and not "hijack" 2long's thread.

God bless.

Great thread, 2long!!

I have so many books on forgiveness... one of my faves is Forgive and Forget by Smedes.

He speaks of forgiveness being about freeing yourself (and others) from undeserved guilt and pain. What he doesn't explain very well (IMO) is how to forgive someone who PURPOSELY and WILLFULLY betrays you. I mean, there are chapters about forgiving the unforgiveable... and there are words in the chapters... but... it seems to me what he's mostly saying is to forgive in your heart but don't forget... therefore protecting yourself from further harm. But how do you do that? I mean: Is it real if it's in the forefront of your mind 24/7, as it is for days, months, years for some betrayed spouses? (It was for me when my ex-H cheated - it took FIVE YEARS to get to a point of true forgiveness - which let's face it - was when I began to TRUST him again.)

My personal thoughts and opinions on the subject range from turning the other cheek to running away from the offending person/act. I still have a very hard time standing up to betrayal and fighting for myself. And it's hard to wrap my head around the idea that I *need* to be selfish and take care of myself... since it was selfishness that caused my affair years after my (then)H's.

Ack! So confusing.

I still think forgiveness is a gift. And I know it doesn't mean we'll forget... and it doesn't mean we ACCEPT the behavior, either.

I just know that for me, I've given forgiveness freely and often throughout my life... but, as I've gotten older, wiser and more protective of myself, I've realized that in honesty, there are a very few people who have hurt me so completely and repeatidly (sp) that I simply choose not even entertain the idea of forgiveness.

What does that say about me?

WAT,

Yes, I was asking you. Thanks. I guess I get it now. If you don't see any personal value in forgiving them, obviously there's no need to. But I can't say I relate to that.

Thinking out loud...

With regard to my situation (not my infidelity, but what happened to me as a kid)... I don't even think of it in terms of forgiveness... but rather ACCEPTANCE. And the difference -- in my mind -- comes down to INTENT. The intent of the offender.

What happened to me was: my brother repeatedly molested me over the course of several months... and upon discovering what was happening... my mother sort-of blamed me and then swept it all under the rug.

Did they harm me with their actions? Yes. Both of them did. But neither of them intended to.

I believe my brother knew, on some level, that what he was doing was harmful. But it wasn't his primary motivation.

As for my mother, she probably had (has?) no idea that what she did was harmful. She acted out of ignorance not malice.

So what is there to forgive? Instead, I think I can choose to accept what happened, and try to use it as a gift to grow spiritually, just as SpaceCase suggested.

Hmmmm.

--SC

Hey FH, thanks also for answering. Since I'm not a Christian, I can't say I understood the answer... but I appreciate the effort.

NBII

I think I read this ... was it written decades ago? Does it discuss the nazi's victims in detail?

Pep (old brainitis)

Yes Pepperband, that's exactly the book. Copyright 1984.

The question about the Nazis triggered my creaky synapses about another excellent book on forgiveness called, I think, the Sunflower (I'll try to find it...) that let's you draw your own conclusions by telling a horrifying, apparently true story from WWII and then asks a variety of religious and other wise thinkers what they would've done. Very thought provoking.

Here it is: The Sunflower: On the Possibilities and Limits of Forgiveness