I believe that in a recovered marriage that, yes, a post nuptial agreement would be in order. I do feel that it should be signed by both the WS and the BS...In a recovered marriage you should both be back on equal footing...or at least Mr. W and I believe that...Further, Dr. Harley says that it is the BS that is indeed most vulnerable to having an affair at this point: "revenge affair"...If only the FWS is expected to sign, then I believe that that implies an attitude of the BS to continue to hold the affair over the head of the FWS, and THAT would not make for a truly recovered marriage in my opinion(Cymanca, in light of what I just stated, I would like to hear your opposing viewpoint when you have the chance)...Addtionally I believe that each spouse should be represented by independent counsel as far as this document is concerned...Keep in mind that Mr. W is an attorney...Should we decide to sign a post nuptial agreement, I have no problem with him drawing up such agreement, I however would wish for another attorney to have a "look see" before I would agree to sign...In my opinion, that is just the wisest way to handle it...

I will also add that this was a real "hot bed" issue for us during my affair...obviously as a WS, I was resolute in my stance of not signing... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />...ARGH!!! I have 100% NO PROBLEM with doing so now...IMO, that is how a BS can gauge whether or not they have a WS or a FWS on their hands...

Mrs. W

nikko - I think that depends on where you live re: local laws and even the Judge on your case.

For the record, my suggestion for consideration of post nups is not with the motivation of revenge. Not to "ruin" the WS. It's for future prevention and when that doesn't work, for SOME justice to keep the BS to have to pay for the WS's "crime."

So, how would you have cleaned his clock? Granted, SAHM's (don't recall if you were one) can get substantial alimony payments. Perhaps this is sufficient a disincentive for many breadwinners.

I guess the concept of a post nup is most appealing to sitch's like mine - I lived in a community property state and absent cooperation from my wife, everything gets split 50/50 - after you pool all the assets. There is no justice at all in that scheme.

WAT

I would have no problem signing one as to infidelity in my now marriage even (because I was a WW in the last one).

The real issue is where do we stop with that kind of behavior?? Even though I take ownership of my actions what about a post nuptual agreement that states my spouse will meet all my EN's?? Not gain weight? or on down the line??

Hey WAT...I'm also interested in your viewpoint regarding whether both parties should have to sign...

Mrs. W

Also WAT...just a thought...perhaps adding the term "POST NUPTIAL" to this thread title would yield more opinions for discussion...What say you?

Mrs. W

Good idea - DONE!

My view is that both parties should have the same status. For the FBS, it's a "good faith" statement, notwithstanding the prior demonstration of faithfulness (pun intended) and the FWS would be revealing much, IMHO, NOT to agree.

WAT

WAT...

Looks like we're on the same page with our views... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Kinda funny timing, I just brought up this topic with Mr. W last night...I told him that I would be willing to sign a post nuptial should he ever wish for me too-today is 1 year post d-day for us, not sure if that's what made me think of this or not...I hadn't even looked at your thread yet...I think I just want to show him in every way possible how very sorry, grateful, and committed to him that I am...

Great idea for a thread, btw...Perhaps it will provide an opening for some healthy dialogue between any recovering spouses here...

Thanks!

Mrs. W

I'm not sooooo naive to believe that there aren't some sticky wickets to get past to actually do one of these.

I get the sense that many folks consider PRE-nups to be unromantic, indicators of suspiciousness, and distracting from the "real" vows, etc. "Only people who aren't sincere need 'em." (Maybe they're the ones who are naive?) While the need for a post-infidelity nup has a prima facie better argument, I wouldn't be surprised to hear some of the same criticisms as for pre-nups.

Let's say there's consensus for post nups. Isn't the next logical argument for pre-nups from the git go? A grass roots uprising against no fault divorce laws?

WAT

From Penalty Kill

First, as a FWW, I would have no problem signing such a document. I'd do it right now, as a matter of fact.

Whether or not my H should sign it would be up to him; it wouldn't matter to me one way or the other. If he did cheat and decided to opt out of the M, he's welcome to his fair share of our assets, as the law permits. He's worked hard to get us where we are.

Hi pk - that's a crystal clarion call of your commitment.

Congrats to you.

WAT

If my husband came up today and asked me to sign a postnup stating this, I would sign without blinking. If I ever do this to my husband again, I dont deserve another chance...in that case I will have bigger problems to deal with such as a possible sexual addiction and in that case I would want my kids protected from myself and my husband to to protect them and himself.

Just my 2cents

Dorry

I thought about YOU in particular when I read this thread ... and I was thinking "Gosh, if Dorry and Sprint had a post-nup agreement .. it might have saved some of the mess that happened"

but

water under the bridge

But I was just thinking about you and you posted

Pep

What if it ends up wit the route of prove / disprove infidelity?

It sounds like it could turn into a non "no fault" D argument.

What if there's no infidelity, but one spouse refuse to meet ENS?

Well, my guess is if one spouse is refusing to meet ENs then there would probably be a refusal to sign a post nuptial regarding that refusal...Right???


Mrs. W

Wat and Cy.... and anyone else interested, I would like to get a response to my assertions and statements on this thread. That I even have a caveat seems to be a point of contention and I would like to explore that, if you don't mind.

Thanks for the time you take.

pat.

Well Pat, what is your caveat? What is it that you are afraid that the post nuptial would do? What part of you would feel "lorded over" if Froz were willing to sign too? Do you feel "lorded over" about something else right now in your relationship?

Mrs. W

Hi Pat

The FWS would only be ruined if they cheated again. If the FWS chooses to divorce for whatever other reason, the clause is not invoked.

If the FWS feels they can prevent themselves from having another affair, do you still object to this ?

I am not a believer that it is unmet needs that causes an affair - I believe unmet needs help create an envirnoment where a person becomes more vulnerable to an affair - but they aren't the cause.

I believe ALL marriages will go through times where one person can't meet the needs of another...or marriages where one person isn't into doing marriages...Best case scenario - both are willing to commit to MB prinicipals and stick to them everyday....but in alot of marriages people dont.

So I believe in looking inside to protect yourself when those needs aren't being met - protect your vulnerabilities, coping skills, etc...have a good support system set up and good communication with your spouse during those times...

Otherwise - military spouses can't be included in that cause it's unfair for a military spouse to try to meet eachother's needs 10000 miles apart!!! Or in my case, a husband who doesn't believe in MB. He is meeting my needs today - but what if he didn't tomorrow....Gotta protect myself from vulnerability.

So I dont believe a post nup should include "needs meeting" - but definately should have a caveat about the 2nd time around in an affair...both H and I have an understanding now since we both had affairs...next time, there is no "second chance" - neither of us can go through this all again....



Awww thanks pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Sprint would have signed this thinking he was immune post my A....I dont think it would have prevented him from having one though...but it would have changed the aftermath recovery - that's for sure!!!

Pat,

I think what you are saying is you think the penalty in the post-nup should be significant, but not extreme/draconian.

If that's what you meant, then that raises the issue of what is an appropriate "EA/PA penalty" in a pre or post-nup.

I'm curious to know what WS and BS think.

Thanks

I'll tell you how much I believe in this entire concept, and give an example of what I would have included in the post-nup, which I can say because it's what I did...

A tiny history: My ex cheated several times in the late 1980's... my affair with a co-worker happened in 1999 (I ended it after I slept with OM once and told my then-H myself), my ex wouldn't forgive me and my affair gave him "permission" to cheat again, which he did, with several women. I filed for divorce. We'd been married 20 years.

During the months until the divorce was final, I met my (now)H. I struggled with if it was infidelity, because in my mind the marriage was over (more on this in a second). I had a relationship with him anyway. My ex continued his relationships, as well. We lived apart and the divorce became final quickly.

My H lives in Canada, my ex and I lived in California. Community property state. I could have gotten alimony and half his retirement, along with a few other things. One of our three kids was still a minor (16), the other two adults. The kids were with me until the day I left for Canada, at which time their dad moved back in the house. I had the clothes on my back, some books, some CD's and a few pictures.

To be honest, which I always am... it did take a few weeks for the reality (the beginning of consequences) of what I'd actually done to hit me. I'd left with nothing because I felt that I deserved nothing. My relationship was infidelity (at least in the legal sense, if not the moral sense) because the divorce was not yet final when we began it.

So... I know for a fact that I would have signed the agreement and lived up to it. Because I did, without the written agreement.

I will say that I have been blessed beyond all reason in spite of myself and my poor choices. My ex and I get along very well, and he has been kind and generous (even buying me plane tickets to come out when I couldn't afford them myself)... my children (all now in their 20's) love me...

None of that takes away the worst of the consequences, which by the way are all inside this soul of mine - I have punished myself far more than anyone else could. But that's not the subject of this thread... it's the question of whether or not a WS wouldn't agree to a post-nup... and like I said, I agreed without ever seeing one and have lived up to it...