Took a few days to consider your comments.

I am not particularly comfortable hearing her opinions, thoughts, beliefs, etc. At one time, yes. Over time, hers have become very polarized, very black&white. Perhaps she has just become more expressive of them.

I am uncomfortable with them as I see things in shades of grey, a spectrum. There are certain incontrovertible truths, definitive right and wrongs, to be clear.

Specifically, though, I do not label people as stupid or dumb or idiots for their choices, but I do see the choices as perhaps not being very good ones. I don't approve of the labeling that she does, with me, with my family, with her family, and the people in her immediate circle.

I also do not believe that problems exist because she says a problem exists. You can believe the sky is green but that does not make it so, and by submitting me to a series of tests to find out why I cant understand that the sky is green is not going to do anything but build frustration in me and a false belief that there is something wrong with me in you.

I once shared and talked a lot but over time continued harassment, sometimes over what I would consider to be minor semantical differences, has just put me in a place where I am not comfortable sharing that much any more. And if I do not agree with her and her views, then I MUST have the opposite view. Case-in-point, in HN/HN, the author makes a comment that it is natural for men to look at an attractive woman, just as it is natural for a woman to look at an attractice man. W believes that to be b*llsh*t; faithful men and faithful women do not look. Period. Since I did not comment on the statement I must have agreed with it. That illicited a nearly physical fight whereby the only resolution was to agree with her, even though copious amounts of evidence argue against her. Again, her philosophy is that any attention what so ever given to someone of the opposite sex is tantamount to infidelity.

I do have a committment to respect. Even though I feel she comes down on me for my opinions, I am doing better in not becoming so defensive. I am also recovering the ability to not interrupt her during a conversation. So, it really ends up me managing my external frustration, my body language. I can think of maybe two examples of episodes where she took responsibility for her actions; she even manages to blame me for her battering me.

I'm not even sure where this is going any more, as I do not see my parents and her reconciling any time soon. Several posts back, I think you said something about self-betrayal.

I feel many times that I have betrayed myself, in retrospect. Many of the values that I thought my W had do not seem to be here now. I often find myself thinking that I broke up with so-and-so for just such a thing and now I live it everyday. I had expectations for a mate and I then loosened those expectations because I felt that maybe I was being unrealistic. Now, I feel that I should have stuck to them.

BTW, I found this site through her. She subscribed me to the newsletter. She has encouraged me to use it, and as you can see I have. I have found validation, however I validated myself before I joined the DF. I needed to firm the foundation of my own philosophy though, to mitigate my own feelings.

Interesting..... So are you saying that "your" belief is always correct in your eyes? Let me ask you something, you seem like a wise fellow, how old are you?


Is it possible that this is a "what came first the chicken or the egg" situation? Y'all obviously have some serious differences in communication styles, styles that partially evolved after you began communicating with each other. Meaning that her style is formed as a mechanism to deal with yours and vice versa, unless she was like this dating and you chose to marry her anyway. And now y'all are stuck in a cycle. What's is going to take to break that cycle?

Let me ask you something, would you be willing to go to a "communication" seminar to learn new ways to talk to each other? Do you think she'd be willing? Thought I haven't attended, I've heard great things about a program called "Retrouville" (? on the spelling)... May be a wise investment of time to look into it....

Wow, DM...

You seem to be a careful, deeply considerate person. Really great post. I could feel the thought-filled time you took with it.

"At one time, yes. Over time, hers have become very polarized, very black&white. Perhaps she has just become more expressive of them." Would you say that the possibility that when you were comfortable, you were separate individuals, becoming one? I ask this not to argue or dissuade...I believe firmly that sharing with someone who is unsafe, attacking, degrading and abusive, is a natural reaction...what I am asking is that you consider that before, when you were discovering one another, and we showed ourselves, tentatively, attuned to results and reactions, that you were open to her thoughts, feelings and beliefs because they were hers...and yours were separate.

She could see black and white and not demand that you see the same. There was an agreement to disagree, be different...and this may have occurred very early on, when you both were safe for the other, yet not totally known. Her insecurity increased over the years--I say this because needing to be right more than needing to be married is an essential sign of distress...and in marriage, we merge, like two cantankerous drivers on a highway, as we hit full speed into the second phase of marriage; all out of fear. Now we can be the cause, control and cure of another person's thoughts, feelings and beliefs...this enmeshment, which means what opinions the other person holds may well have to be agreed with, supported...otherwise, agreeing to disagree feels like an attack.

I am asking for your perspective, how well you understand that her truth is hers, not yours...separate...and your boundaries are yours, not hers...they are about you...

Love and fear...appropriately given the abuse, your marriage has leaned far into fear-based...from both sides...and only you are here, actively posting, learning and reading...deeply considering...so I am asking you if you want a new perspective, choosing to love, embracing your fear, and learning a new way to live in your own skin.

The respect I speak of is to listen and repeat...hold her words in a hopper on top of your head...they are not yours, do not ingest lightly; use this as a respect filter...which says, "This is her opinion, her thoughts, her feelings...not mine." This is true respect...no judgment; pure acknowledgement of separate and equal. No having to agree, believe, think and feel the same...getting that separateness back...

Abuse blurs lines as well as enmeshment does...both from fear. Abuse defines you, when only you can do that. Owning what is yours and carefully, consciously, knowing what is not yours...is crucial to respecting yourself, your marriage and your wife.

I'm not talking from books or degrees here...real life...my own. Got my marriage back by doing this very thing...stopped the abuse...from both ways...by owning what was mine and not judging my H anymore.

I'm his partner, not his judge. I'm choose to be his partner...of him entirely, one unit. Much easier to do when we removed the tit for tat, giving to get, measuring and judgment...acceptance and boundaries.

And we're still working it, doing communication exercises, pausing and breathing...using "I" statements...because even when we flow, our fear can rise...it is within us...and we can feel abused from before, automatic reaction, and have to examine the present to see if it is here or back there.

Your power, your choice, "I do not label people...they can only define themselves, as I can only define myself." Great belief. Hand back hers to her to confirm, "I hear you labeling cell-phone-talking drivers negligent idiots, is that correct?" This isn't farce, passive-aggressive...I am truly asking you to be respectful and hand back what isn't yours...for confirmation or clarification...

Same as I would to you about the looking at other women..."I hear you believe it is natural for you to look at attractive women, is that correct?"

For my H, he has realized a lot of anger towards himself for being a slave to his automatic assessment of others...to look at attractive people, first you must judge them attractive or not, correct? Natural/automatic...this long-standing habit is now being changed in my H...for his own desire to be free to see more of the world and no longer be a slave to what he trained himself for...fantasy fodder of others and constant judgment. From this very "natural" allowance, my H has felt less than, confined, and defined by his thoughts; and he has felt constantly judged...because he judges.

We have two different beliefs and there is no right or wrong, DM...my question here is can you hold my different experience, my different desire...and accept them? Most likely...you're not married to me! LOL...can you see where DJs can annihilate love? Increased fear wiping out this separateness? Which is a blade that cuts your hand even as it cuts others?

Have you committed to what your boundaries are for the future? On the physical abuse? Emotional? Verbal?

Can you respect that a problem exists for her when she says, "We've got a problem?" Can you validate and acknowledge, "I hear you feel anger and you believe it is because ________ did ___________ when you had asked him not to, is that correct?"

"I feel unhappy. I feel angry all the time."

These are hers...and she is half the marriage. Your marriage and her have the problem...you participate by acknowledging and knowing this is hers. She is sharing with you. Do not hear her asking to be fixed, complied with...none of the other things I believe you have actually heard directly...again, those are hers, not yours. She cannot control, cause or cure you...nor you, her.

We know this. Live it. Know your own fear behind your anger, rejection, frustration...and that to allow yourself to create resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die...

What is DF?

Why mitigate your own feelings?

I got lost...I'm tired...just me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you are living in the past and thinking of other relationships, then you will have feelings related to the past, not the present...a protection from them, possibly...your brain does not know time at all...hands you emotions and reactions as if all is now...and cumulative...

If your base belief is picking the right person, then you will struggle in all marriages...so I'm asking you to struggle in this one...physically safe, emotionally aware and mentally respectful...charged for life and a lot of growth...like asking you to learn how to sip tea in a hurricane...I know...it matters.

I promise.

Pinky up.

LA

My beliefs modifying themselves as my knowledge grows. I find adherence to dogma abhorent in light of new knowledge. So, sometimes I feel as if my beliefs are correct, and sometimes I feel like what I believe may need to be modified. As people grow, their belief systems should grow, as well. I am growing as a result of my marital issues. Many of my own personal beliefs and traits I am really evaluating everyday, trying to learn new ones and trying to reinvigorate ones that have been shoved aside because of pain. Pain and resentment sidetrack one from personal growth. I do believe that people have to reach outside their own personal pain in order to achieve a better relationship with themselves and with God. In other words, we cannot allow ourselves to become bogged-down in our own grief as it will undermine efforts to forgive, love, understand, and truly live satisfying lives.

Despite the issues and concerns I have noted within these threads, everyday I choose how to be the husband I want to be. I want to listen, be emotionally and physically attentive, active and engaged. In negotiating these with myself, I wrestled with changing my behavior vs. changing myself (who I am), and try to distinguish between the two. What/where is the happy medium? I do this inspite of comments like, "if you leave you should just shoot yourself. It would be better for all involved."

My W is a mental health counselor, and has been for several years. The hypocrasy of all this has been a good part of the reason for the way I feel. EA/PA's that stem from Emotional abandonment/ physical abandonment are seen as just desserts; "I would do the same, if it happened to me," I have heard recently and many times in the past. I have confronted her in the past for such comments, told her that they are not helpful, nor healing, nor instructful. Now, I just ignore them. Otherwise, arguments would arise atleast weekly, if not more frequently.

The "Chicken or The Egg" reference is a good one. There is always a reason for an action that is predictated upon some past action, and so on and so forth. I work on keeping things in the here-and-now. The problem I have is keeping things in the "I" and not bringing in "you." My attempts are usually to try to draw a comparison between my behavior and hers, but the focus always becomes, "we arent talking about me, we are talking about you!"

I do like the idea of not taking things before the "jury." I often feel like I am being interrogated, and honestly, I know that some of those feelings arise without provocation, and are based on early arguments with my W. I am working on squelching that.

I also like the comment, "the brain does not know time." That is definitely true. That can be a good thing and a bad thing. It can give us hope for future happiness, but also keep us saddled in romanticizing past. My method is to work on transferring those feelings from the romanticized past into the present and future, creating those feelings for today and for tomorrow.

Whoa...I'm stunned. Truly. Thank you for widening my closed mind. I had no idea a professional mental health worker could be abusive.

Just so you know...I have these tiny beliefs in me and that hit one...not that it has ever come up...and it makes sense now...the inner circle problem.

I had that. When I lived for and from my self-image...viewing my self from the outside inward...then I was more patient, kinder, nonreactive and aware with people outside of my inner circle than those within.

My inner circle was my H and kids, and myself. I treated them as poorly as I did myself...I had self-image out there and self in here...and I beat self to a pulp, verbally, along with my loved ones.

See, I believed that people who abused didn't know better...weren't informed, did not have the skills developed...and that isn't true. That was a disrespectful me believing others were less or more than me.

When she says "if you leave you should just shoot yourself. It would be better for all involved."

Why is saying, "That is abuse. Stop." an escalator instead of your truth? Why is this not betraying yourself...similar to her beating her inner circle...you costing you a lot in silence...?

Same way in ditching the "hypocrisy" factor...your judgment, holding others to your standards...when they are separate from you and equal. That judgment does nothing for you, does it? Or does it?

"My attempts are usually to try to draw a comparison between my behavior and hers," Why? Why would you want to compare?

Is this about a belief that we should be treated as we treat others?

May I ask you, is there something you did in your past, so terrible, that you believe you are earning redemption in this marriage?

Please know that I did...to change my inner circle and widen it outward, I did this...created and maintained my own plan to redemption...I am not saying you are worth more, divorce...etc. I am asking you for your feelings, thoughts and beliefs...what do you own about you?

LA

Thank you for your last posts. Your posts have helped remind me about showing respect, even when I do not agree w/my W.

I had to work on that this last weekend as I was confronted with a couple opportunities. Occasionally, I get asked if I had it to do over again, would I get married, and, would I marry her. I find these questions very frustrating, as many times I have been told that she would liked to have dated more before she dated me, that she wished she would have given my proposal more thought. This conversation opener just builds tension.

The "Nothing Counts" also reared its ugly head again. We have worked through several of the HN/HN worksheets. As a results, I am doing a better job in many aspects of our marriage. However, when I am told that my priorities are wrong, ands as a result, nothing that I do in any other regard matters, I am finding it so hard to find the energy to even keep going with all the other things.

My W spends so much time reading about marriage and abuse and relationships and emails me so many things to read and website to look at. I am burnt out and overwhelmed. She sees disaster at every turn. She has immersed herself so much in her fear that our marriage is a disaster that is slowly becoming a self-fulling prophecy. She reads nothing else; when she rents movies they are about abusive relationships and divorce. And then I get to hear how am I like the abuser(s). If I mention that she should try to read something else or do something else or watch something else, I become guilty of minimizing her feelings. I am so tired of this.

I say, look at your life, look at what you have, look at what we have, think about what we will have. I run down the list of all the positives, the time we spend together, and as a family. All she can see and remember are all the conflicts, brought on by these da*n books that dredge up all these memories, many of which are so bent from reality. If she doesnt get her way, she gets completely abusive, justified, she says, because my inattentiveness is abuse, so therefore I deserve it.

Part of the issue is that my world-view, in order to bring some peace in life, does not allow me to get bogged down in the incidents of life. That doesnt mean that I go around hurting people. It means that the world won't end if I forget to clean out the bathroom trash. That it won't end if I forget to get milk at the grocery store. I hate the thought of being bogged down by the trivialities of life, of who was mean to me, or the semantical difference between "us" and "we." So I tend to minimize feelings. Feelings get in the way of truth.

Our lives are about being nice to each other, regardless of who or what they are. There are necessities in life and there are luxuries. Luxuries come after the necessities are provided for. It may be months or years down the road. I believe patience is a virtue and immediate gratification is not a virtue.

To answer your question, not any one "thing" did I do in past relationships. I was obstinate, a little uncompromising; I held idealistic attitudes and from that was guilty of talking down to my GFs. I was never physically abusive or mentally abusive. I was probably disrespectful of opinions that differed from my mine, though. I never said that anyone was "stupid" or an "idiot" for believing something. I might be argumentative in order to get them to see another viewpoint, however.

I knew my core was pretty good, I just didnt have the tools to be a better mate. I spent a number of years in reflection, relaxed, thought about how my mate should be treated and such. This worked for a while in my present marriage. I did something stupid (viewed pornography), and that set off a cascade of events that led me here.

Thank you for your reply.

I do understand how her research triggers past conflict and incidents into the present for her...along with the movies, etc. She is experiencing life as if she is currently in pain, distress and being abused...has all the emotions tied into it.

What did you do when she told you that your priorities were wrong? When she defined you, she crossed the line. Your priorities are with your choice. Hers is hers. There are priorities of the marriage...separate from both of yours...what are those and where does the marriage (and its priorities) fall on your list?

Where's the MC for you both?

I don't see the one incident as a trigger for all of this, DM...I see you believing something is trivial, because it is to you, when it could mean feeling loved or not to another person.

What their truth is matters. Equally, yours does. Know both. A lot of marriages die from idealism...humans have a difficult time separating idealistic beliefs from trying to be ideal.

When she asks about marrying her, have you tried, with a smile, "Asked and answered!"

Maybe salute and hug her?

or

"Can you tell me what that question means to you? What you're feeling right now?" Then listen and repeat.

Where's the big respect of agreeing to disagree? You have your truth...she has yours...it is an act of intimacy to know those truths...your thoughts, feelings and beliefs are yours...no one ever needs to agree with you for them to be invalid. They're yours. No one else HAS to consider another view point...they can listen and remain of another opinion. These aren't facts...they are perpsectives. You know this...how you let a lot go; how you've gotten a thicker skin...yet in your choice of world-view, your skin would be thinner, would it not? Open, vulnerable and understanding? Knowing you aren't the cause, control or cure of anyone, and how powerful choosing your perspective and beliefs makes you?

How about extremes management? Your choice of world view says the world won't end if I forget blank...what if "My wife will fear more if I forget to take out the bathroom trash, not because it is trash, but because she fears neglect through forgetting...she fears broken promises...she fears being taken of advantage of...used...all past issues in the present; yet I have the choice to see these as acts of love to meet ENs or I can see them as trivial details."

Now, I'm not gonna DJ here and say this is what is going on with your wife...but in your heart of hearts, do you know why your wife abuses? Why she obsesses on abuse? Why she is a self-fulfilling prophet?

Do you know what is at the heart of every abuser?

And did you do a lot of "forgetting," as part of the defensive reaction you felt that you mentioned before? A lot of conflict avoiding...which feels like wife-avoidance to some of us (ME! ME!...okay, old ME!)...did you self-betray by calling yourself a doormat...or believing humans earn love?

Lots of stuff here, DM...about being you, acceptance, boundaries, regular flesh and choosing what you resent.

Why do you choose to believe her when she says that nothing you do matters? That's her belief...it is abuse...it isn't if she says, "I feel like you manipulate--you do so you won't be blameless...I feel like a constant failure or on the verge of failing, all the time. I fear 24/7; I breathe it in like fumes. I constantly feel less than you, powerless and put down. I don't know why. I want to know why."

You know you matter...what you do has purpose and intent...know your intent...know your truth...then hers will really be hers...'k?

LA

I said that my priorities may be different than hers and in being different doesnt mean that they are wrong. The issue is this: if our priorities are not identical, if my priorities do not fall in line with hers, than I disrespect her, and as a result, do not place our marriage as a priority. If I do not do what she asks, change what she says I should change, read what she says I should read, do what she says I should do, then our marriage is not my priority and neither is she and I might as well leave.



There isnt one. In retribution for the pain that I have caused her she took it upon herself to run my CC $1,000 past its limit. Add in our other debt and that she doesnt work, and there is no money left to afford to pay for any kind of counseling. Thank God I had some savings (almost tapped out).



You are correct: their truth matters. The problem is when only their truth matters, to the exclusion of any other: I am right, you are misguided and ignorant and I cant believe how juvenile you are. I am the expert, you are the student. If you do not listen to me then you disrespect me, my career, my life, who I am, our marriage, and thusly, we will be doomed to failure and it is your fault. And partly mine for being so stupid to love you.



They can remain of another opinion. The problem is when my opinion does not fall within the Party line. I do not like being told that I need to drop something, or cancel something, or not go to something, because it is either not marriage-focused or it is selfish. And I am not talking about going drinking with the boys (never have done this). If I take the kids to the movies, I could have used that time for our marriage, that kind of stuff. If I read a book that is not about relationships and happy people, then I am wasting my time and not focusing on our marriage.



She describes her father as being extremely abusive and had a very bad temper. He isnt like that now, but she describes him as positively ugly. I suspect that it stems from there. That and her previous failed marriages and the infidelity that occurred within those.



Absolutely. And I still do. Yes, yes, and yes. I dont stand up for myself. I have recently tried that; owned the way that I feel, said as much. I was accused of standing up for myself and being defensive.

You see, I let all this go on for way too long, this manipulative behavior. Doing so out of the misguided idea that I need to be this way because that is what a dutiful husband does. Now, I am tired of allowing myself to be manipulated. I have changed and she knows this. I am more resistant to her input. She happily admits to trying to get me to do things everyday, as if it is positive. To me, it is an incessant desire to change not just bad behaviors but me inside and out. I am happy with who I am, what I am, inside and out. It took me a long time to get this way, and I am frustrated as her constant struggle to alter me I interpret as non-acceptance of who I am.

I was talking about opinions...were you responding about actions?

"The problem is when my opinion does not fall within the Party line. I do not like being told that I need to drop something, or cancel something, or not go to something, because it is either not marriage-focused or it is selfish."

Two very different things...yes, it sounds like her opinion, but it is her preference about your actions...which aren't subject to the "hey, we agree to disagree rule"...it is subject to the Policy of Joint Agreement...POJA...because it is an action...and your Taker has to be at the table...in hand, but present.

Taker's are not defensive, btw...your Giver is...interesting, huh?

You didn't get to the why of her abuse...she's too old and been through too many marriages/relationships to be automatically modelling...have you had a safe discussion, face to face, in whispers, about what her feelings are behind her abuse...and if you are going to say, she doesn't believe she's abusive, then I'm a gonna abuse you!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

More resistent to her input is you not allowing her influence...and there's more than one influence...you choose to not believe her when she defines you...you choose to state, "That's abusive" when she does...and ensure you're not defining her, either, right? Yet demonstrate with a highlighter attitude when you are not resisting her influence when she's not being abusive.

Big diff.

Block all, and YOU won't feel accepted, either...rejecting others helps us reject ourselves...discerning beats rejecting any day.

Why frustrated when you are happy with yourself? She can struggle all she wants...you enforce your boundaries...she cannot alter you...she cannot change you...and there is a lot she is accepting about you, in between...please don't overlook that.

Fear that she can you, wear you down, make you into another person...fear of being a doormat, fear of being wrong...lots of fears give rise to frustration...not others' struggles.

You can be accused of being defensive an not be...you can accuse her of not accepting you and she might be doing just that...what we perceive is ours...that's why our frustration doesn't come from being accused when you are solid in knowing you are not being/feeling defensive at all.

Ever read Kurt Keith's Paradoxical Commandments? I bet you have. Reading these gets this respect, these separate and equal really going...did for me. Where I got my screen name.

Nurse yourself...speak your truth...use hand signals for the abuse...hold up one finger when you feel fear, or attacked, or flooded with emotion...palm vertical and outward can signal you are hearing abuse...pre-agree to walk away after two signals and resume within twenty minutes.

These are life lessons for you, DM...as important for you as they are for her...I was like your wife...I was...for 15 years I talked my H into rubble...he could only be a man if I said so...and I raised three sons...so I'm undoing a HECKUVA lot...

And it can be down.

And I gotta tell you...when that fear subsides and the love can flow freely...my family is stunned...with peace, acceptance, appreciation and we are thriving...replacing blame with ownership, respect and cherishing I had anything left from my one-woman demolition stint...

Tell me your goal...how old are your children again? Where is your joy? What was it about this woman, your wife, which so enamored you, which gave you dreams of shuffle-walks together when you were 90?

LA

I only just read Kurt Keith's list upon your recommendation. Looks and feels familiar.

I feel I am doing too much bashing of my wife here. I am also doing a lot of blaming. I am having a difficult time finding my place in my home, though. The children 8 & 6 are not mine, and her child-rearing supercedes anything that I do. My tasks around the house take a backseat to what she deems important. I know I just got done writing that I am bashing/blaming and in the next sentence it sounds as if I am doing just that. Part of the paradoxical nature of our life.

My wife is awesome at what she does, is a good mother, intelligent, beautiful, and is a good friend and a good wife. The insinuations are what gets me; such as when I stated earlier that I get the brunt of criticism when a male character in a movie exhibits bad behavior and then that behavior transfers onto me. Very snide. Or if I don't agree that someone is ugly or stupid or a moron. I looked forward to those shuffle-walks, but now I feel lucky when I can go out in public without facing constant scrutiny & criticism about who or what I am looking at, or being browbeaten for what I like or don't. I guess I operate from day-to-day in that regard.

Goals. I have my own career-driven goals but no marriage goals. I dont know what those look like. I have financial goals but I am the only one who cares about those.

Joy is over-rated. Sorry, I am not a joyful person; never have been, never will be. I do not like emotional extremes.

Bashing/blaming...

Well, you're safe here to vent, aren't you? Most say they vent here instead of in their marriage. I dunno. I think you read what you'd written and thought the perspective could be you were crazy to be in that marriage.

I don't think you're crazy.

I think you're being abused...with judgment and blame.

And I think you're abusing with judgment and blame.

Why not stop the dance? I don't mean leave...I mean make boundaries...around you. "I hear you believe that person is moronic." Where is the disrespect in listening and repeating? And if she asks you "Don't you think so?" then are you being honest and open? "I don't believe in judging others, DW."

Loving boundaries matter. What she will do to others, she will do to you and her children. Maybe not now, but down the line. Your boundaries matter.

Verbal abuse is real...judgment really is battery acid...can't handle it, slinging it around, without it eating at everyone, can you?

After coming here, I came to the belief that marriage comes first, then children...marriage is our exampling of truly important behavior, choices and what we are responsible for...and what we are not.

Most important lessons our children learn is through us, as partners.

Marriage goals are important, also. Have you read the four rules of marriage, under the links here? I think they are awesome tools for us.

When you get the bad rap for being male...do you calmly say, "I feel like I'm being held responsible for someone else, is that correct?" Do you have respectful terms you use...which do not argue.

I realize I judge DJs in others...to show them what they are, how they are in their belief system...to promote awareness. Your choice to DJ or not. If you'd like me to point them out, I will. They are sneaky stuff. When you are being abused, they are difficult to see in ourselves, though easier to see in our partners.

There is the Policy of Joint Agreement...a respectful way to decide things in marriage...so that your tasks do not take a backseat...your marriage can come first...and you both can be equal partners.

The abuse must stop, though, for your family's health. Takes only one of you to disrupt the dance...are you willing to be the one?

LA

LA -

I have revisited your last posting. Disrupting the dance is looking more and more like separation. We are now at a point lower than ever. She has no idea why I am still here, and I dont really, either.

Her perspective on our marriage and the hurt that we have both been responsible for diverges greatly from mine. She continues to place 100% of our crisis on my shoulders, assuming not one shred of responsibility, no responsibility for hitting, for yelling, for the insults. Surprisingly, I do remain calm during these tirades; I usually sit cross-legged on the bed with my hands in my lap. I leave to sleep on the couch when she starts with "F*** you" and other expletives. Then, I'm done. Of course, she yells for "walking out on her."

I have a reference for a counselor in town, who I am going to try, if only for my own peace of mind.

I have posted on the divorcing forum, as many of these issues are derived from her previous marriages and episodes of infidelity in those, among other inappropriate behaviors, and was looking for what others could tell me about people who have been through multiple divorces. I think I am almost on my own in that regard. I would really like to read some research on issues related to multiple divorces.

DM,

I've been seeing you posting in Divorcing forum...I remembered you and wondered how you were doing.

"She has no idea why I am still here, and I dont really, either."

Do you understand that she can't know what you do not know? Your truth is all your own...you are choosing to stay. Would be good to know why and speak of it...share it. Even with yourself.

(This isn't a rib...I did this...lived without looking at my why's...only as reactions, pointing away from myself...as humans, we only CAN live from ourselves...choosing how we view it is all ours, also.)

When I talked about changing the dance...that would be you knowing your choices...what you are choosing every minute of the day...and speaking about them. This is ownership...brings reality to ourselves...removes blame. As you do this, you also listen and repeat with choice HER stuff back to her...for your own clarity and to offer her to confirm or clarify what she meant to you.

Doesn't sound like you're doing that if all you're hearing is her blaming you for all of it..."I believe you're choosing to yell at me. Is that because you don't feel heard or you want me to act on what I heard?"

You can't change her pattern--multiple abandonments and abandonings...you can only look to your own patterns, DM. I know you know this...please pull your focus back to yourself.

Why would you sit passively while she crosses your boundary of respect? Isn't that like sucker punching yourself? Define your boundaries here and tell me your predetermined, progressive enforcements.

I relate well to your WW...sorry to say that, but I do. I didn't have multiple marriages because my DH didn't divorce me...I acted as though I had, though. If I can change, I believe any one can...that's why I'm here, telling my story. See, all those A's and marriages weren't about OM's...they were about your WW...within herself. Her own healing, IMO, is worth your effort...as you are healing yourself, also.

If you are attempting to understand your WW through others who act like her, do you believe there are types of people? Or types of behaviors?

LA

I feel broken and, as of this weekend, more like I am living a lie than any other time in the last two years.

I agreed with her for me to seek individual counseling, which I probably need anyway. However, she also wants to go on medication for my alledged mood swings. I told her that I know what depression and things feel like, having been there before, and I am not there yet. Getting there, but not there yet.

I feel like she wants to medicate me into someone I am not, a better personality through chemistry. There is no reasoning with someone who is a devout believer of their own rightousness.

Yeah, I get irritated when I spend 3hrs every night, involved in dinner/dinner clean-up, giving kids showers, homework, folding laundry and putting it away, all the while she sits in front of her computer. When I voice the irritation, it gets reflected back onto me, I am the angry one, I am the unsupportive one, I am the rude and insensitive one.

So, now, I am faced with taking chemicals so that I am more compliant, so I can swallow this crap with a smile on my face. All in the name of saving a marriage. What a joke. My own fault, I realize. Yes, we all have choices. I have a choice.

There are people who exhibit behaviors; I dont think we are born blank slates entirely, but our environments can certainly cultivate certain behavior types. My wife, due to the alleged emotional neglect suffered as a child, has developed an abusive narcissistic personality in order to get the attention she failed to get as a youth. I dont think she was born this way; her family, i.e. her environment, brewed this within her.

I just didnt realize what I was getting; though looking back over the years I can see strong supportive evidence.

Is your goal to save your marriage at any cost, or to do the hard work to have clarity before you make the decision to divorce?

Would you like, DM, to be your own master? I believe there is power in the language we speak to ourselves...what words we use and how we phrase things matters...

Might not be for you. What I'm going to do here is rephrase what you wrote...and ask you how you read yourself, does it sound any different, bounce any differently inside of you...do you feel any different?

You: "I agreed with her for me to seek individual counseling, which I probably need anyway."

True You: "I've chosen to find a solid IC to support me through my personal and marital issues. My wife supports me in my choice."

You: "However, she also wants to go on medication for my alledged mood swings."

True You: "My wife has expressed her desire for me to be on anti-depressants. She said her desire comes from her fear of my emotions."

You: "I told her that I know what depression and things feel like, having been there before, and I am not there yet. Getting there, but not there yet."

True You: "I examined this in myself and believe I do not have erratic or uncontrollable mood swings. I have become calm, respectful and I act, not react. I believe I'm changing the way I interpret the information my emotions bring to me. I know my spirals and my loss of focus, when I become obsessed in what my wife is doing or not what is within my control, I will consider seeing my doctor."

You: "I feel like she wants to medicate me into someone I am not, a better personality through chemistry. There is no reasoning with someone who is a devout believer of their own rightousness."

True You: "My automatic gut perception is seeing my wife's desire for me to not be who I am, not have emotions of which she is uncomfortable or fearful. I realize I have a conscious choice in how I perceive her desires, and that my own filter may be handing a kick in the heart where there is none. Her desire is for her, not about me...my own expectations of how a partner should act plays into this and I'm going to explore it more deeply rather than stab myself with her words, which teaches my heart to resent her...my own creation."

You: "Yeah, I get irritated when I spend 3hrs every night, involved in dinner/dinner clean-up, giving kids showers, homework, folding laundry and putting it away, all the while she sits in front of her computer. When I voice the irritation, it gets reflected back onto me, I am the angry one, I am the unsupportive one, I am the rude and insensitive one."

True You: "I have been choosing the path of least resistance. I've been seeing myself as powerless, helpless and done to--controlled. I know I choose to do the three-hour tour each evening, every action and chore. I know she is not making me. I know she can't. I am irritated with myself for continually choosing to do what I resent...and I need to stop myself from doing what I will resent until I can do each service from MY choice to love and not compared to what she's doing...I know I am choosing to take poison and wait for her to die for it."

You: "So, now, I am faced with taking chemicals so that I am more compliant, so I can swallow this crap with a smile on my face."

True You: "I feel pressured given my own choices to please/resent, view myself as being controlled and done to...at the same time, I realize, only I have domain over my body, mind, spirit and soul. I will concentrate on being respectful, not compliant, continue to share my thoughts, feelings and beliefs, owning them as they truly are mine, and not live from my wife's fears; I have enough of my own. I will listen and repeat, acknowledge and validate. I will choose to take her opinions as THE truth and practice knowing I have my truth and she has hers."

You: "All in the name of saving a marriage. What a joke. My own fault, I realize. Yes, we all have choices. I have a choice."

True You: "I have felt deluded, tricked, controlled and manipulated. I have not found all the ways inside myself which I've done these things: I'm going to learn how I delude, trick, control and manipulate myself first, then I will better see I cannot be deluded, tricked, controlled or manipulated by others without my full permission."

You: "There are people who exhibit behaviors; I dont think we are born blank slates entirely, but our environments can certainly cultivate certain behavior types. My wife, due to the alleged emotional neglect suffered as a child, has developed an abusive narcissistic personality in order to get the attention she failed to get as a youth. I dont think she was born this way; her family, i.e. her environment, brewed this within her."

True You: "I believe there are people who through their FOO cultivate certain behaviors destructive to relationships. My wife fears emotional neglect, has deep insecurities about being worthy, giving herself attention and respectfully seeing how powerful she is in her own life."

You: "I just didnt realize what I was getting; though looking back over the years I can see strong supportive evidence."

True You: "I didn't realize how much we hide our selves during courtship and Phase I of marriage. As our we began Phase II, revealing our natures to each other, I've felt a lot of conflict in our marriage. I am looking to see what patterns I was comfortable with, even though negative, and find my false payoffs."

Now...I'm cringing because this feels to me to be one HUGE DJ to you...and it wasn't my intention when I began. Because you seem very vulnerable to the blame game, a regular participant, I re-read this and believe you may perceive it as me bashing you...saying it's all you. I'm going to rely on you to choose the perception this is where you're throwing away your power, not that you are powerless. My intent was to show you where you cannot, in reality, throw away your power...we definitely can hide it from ourselves...and I know I did.

I am married to a borderline BPD with P/A behaviors. I had many P/A behaviors myself. I found my own extremes, permissions for them, and most of all, I looked my resentment square in the eye and said, "No more." And did away with the deep build up blocking my love, joy, self-fulfillment and happiness. Unblocking changed my life...my perception and perspective.

My DH is my partner...I do not allow myself to mother him (parenting as a stress management technique is really prevalent, I don't bash myself for having done this, though I feel remorse for it)...we're developing solid self-care and care-styles for each other. We talk about our boundaries, progressive enforcements...and predetermine them. We did communication exercises for a year and a half, and then stopped, now restarting...we missed the intimacy, building trust in deposits much like the love bank ones...and I do not believe my DH remains borderline BPD...and he chooses not to do P/A behaviors, the ones we know about to date.

We're a team working on ourselves. I don't believe if I had chosen to believe that people were broken, had to be fixed, that we would be where we are today. I know we wouldn't have remained married. And I believe, if that path had been taken, I would now be with someone who acted very differently from my DH, and I would have the same issues in a different package...because they are my own.

What you described about your 3-hour evening routines...is Passive Aggressive behavior...agreeing to a routine you will resent...and you will drain your love bank. Doing it to yourself. I did that. I know. I just re-experienced doing that this past week myself...these are really old, old behaviors, so we come back to them again and again. Took me four days to catch myself in the behavior. That's quicker than 15 years, so I'm feeling pretty good.

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This may be why you said "brewed this within her"...so ingrained as to be undetectable, until we look closely and see they are learned...and they can be unlearned...with awareness and choice.

God didn't give us the freedom of choice to only choose him...he did it for us to choose our very lives. He wouldn't give us responsibility without control...we can experience that crazymaking life, though, if we perceive our choices that way.

Do you spend a lot of time thinking what life would be like without her? With someone else you make up in your head, who acts the exact opposite your wife does?

LA

Whew! Great reply!

I did not take what you said as bashing me; I appreciate the time you spent in examining what I said and reframing it. Your accuracy is pretty good, I would say.

I am very guilty of the Passive Agressive technique. I think I developed that ability at a very early age as a way of coping in childhood - "I'll do it but I won't like it." It has almost become habit in my marriage, as so often, in order for her to have time for her schoolwork/paperwork, I took over the dinner, the clean-up, the showers. On occasion, she has asked to help and she does; only later to have those episodes used against me.

It is easy to fall into the Blame Game. She has a reaction to something that I did, and then it starts. We cant go back to investigate the "why" I did something - it doesnt matter. We have to start with her hurt and go from there. Apologize. I guess I am just too analytical, there has to be a reason for something otherwise it is just a reaction that occurs in a void. "You hurt me. Apologize." "You hurt me. Apologize." and so it goes.

I do spend some time thinking about what my life would be like without her, but no other single person replaces her. I spent a good deal of my life on my own, living alone. That is what I think about. I feel completely restrained. I could travel when I wanted, go where I wanted, work the hours when I wanted, eat, sleep, watch what I wanted. Now, we are fighting bankruptcy. When she gets mad at me, she spends. I close three credit accounts and she opens two more. I cant work on the computer without her supervision. Watching football on Sunday felt like a holiday. I have lived in our house for almost 2yrs and I spent maybe the equivalent of one day alone in the house. I cant do overnight travel for work because she is so afraid of either who I might meet or who might be going. She wants to know who I sit beside if I attend a mtg, who I email, what I read on the Internet, who I talk to in the course of the day. My whole life is under scrutiny. Over the last two decades, I kept journals. She has read them all, behind my back, and used the details found therein against me, even to this day. I have since thrown them away - 20 years of my life and writing - as I would rather have that then find pages of them ripped out, thrown in my face, literally or figuratively.

So when you talk about the same problems with a different package - why do I want the same problems with a different package? I don't want ANY package. I have literally been through all of these issues in other relationships. And obviously, while not solely the cause, I AM part of the problem.

The crux of our issue is acceptance, in my opinion. She does not accept me for who I am, and while I thought I accepted her for who she is, that is not true, either. Always meddling, and trying to fix. Everything is broken or not quite right so if he reads this or does this or acts this way then I can repair him. Tired of it.

Yes, I do hand over power. I get tired of conflict. I get tired of being told that I have no right to stand up for myself, that I have no right to feel. "Think about what you did to me !! You looked at pornography!! You talked to a female behind my back !!"

Yes, lets use that as our Ground Zero, rather than the previous frequent taunts of "I guess if I dont get what I want I will have to find it somewhere else ...," and threats of leaving, and hitting, and the verbal abuse. But, no, we can't go back to the root cause because those don't count because they affect me and not her, because she is and will always be, the victim.

DM,

Thank you very much for letting me know you didn't feel bashed...that's my own self-doubt showing...I've only been practicing living a respectful life for a couple of years...I think I'll get to a place where me knowing I'm not bashing will be enough...

When you focus your thoughts (and it may be allowing your thoughts to focus you) on what it was like with your wife...then you are training your brain to hand you the perspective what you're missing. Creating a want or desire which comes from biased information...

If you focus on what singleness couldn't give you...intimacy, connectedness, doubling your experience and life...all this is what marriage is about...which singleness cannot provide. You nailed right away where your P/A behavior came from...in the first relationship you had...you and your parents...if you choose to see marriage as working out those whys and wherefores...in a partnership...learning to be who you really are while being intimately connected to another person...could you see how much more growth and joy there could be?

Alone, we are seemingly protected from pain coming in from the outside...and may not learn, by continuing alone, that our pain has always come from the inside. As does our love, anger, joy and frustration.

In my own P/A behaviors, using your great phrase, "I'll do it but I won't like it" I learned the powerful pull of resentment...and I swallowed that poison for forty years. An artificial mood-altering drug...even soul altering...a drug that screwed up my perception and perspective, along with it's supplement, judgment, to change how I experienced life completely...and until I laid it down, walked away and refused to take the poison anymore, I was trapped in my life experience.

I'm asking you to choose to try life without it...to lay it down, walk away...not pick it up and swallow it for two months...to see how you experience marriage, connection, intimacy and yourself, without it.

I don't see you and your wife as problems...not even parts...I see you both as living humans, experiencing what you don't want and what you do...and asking you, 'cuz you're here, to get to a high honesty within yourself so you can experience your life differently. Try it on. See how you like it.

Acceptance...my soul-level theme in my life...I found acceptance at the root of every EN I had...and the force behind every negative villager in me...

From my experience, it is what all humans are craving, in convoluted ways...goes to our creation, origin and purpose of existence to my way of thinking.

I see your resentment as nucleic...and coming from some very invalid beliefs you have...want to look at those, instead of boundaries? Maybe you could start from the inside outward, instead of the outside inward? Could that be behind your choice to not address boundaries?

I woud imagine the deep pull to be single, dissolve the marriage, is supplemented by the choice of your thoughts...the ultimate fix to all this...and I believe it comes from those earliest years, mixed in this, the relationship to help you through those same times...experiencing a life-time of resentment being felt in each perceived sacrfice, where only a little may be resonable. And experiencing it again and again is blocking you from perceiving life any other way.

Some truths I've learned...your wife can believe she's a victim when she is not...has no effect on you...unless you allow it. She can choose to abuse, scrutinize, dominate, force or manipulate you...and she cannot, unless you allow it. Separating what truly is only hers, from yours, is understanding and believing humans are separate and equal...and I don't believe you choose to believe that.

I hear you choose to believe she can make you resent, feel uncomfortable, fear, be angry, hurt, frustrated, engulfed, smothered, reject, and driven away against your will.

That, to me, is what children experience with their parents...that belief comes from being a dependent child and experiencing life that way...no power. I often re-experience those feelings inside when I am triggered by pain and perceive as the child I was would...which is fantasy. I am an adult. I have choices and choose not to believe I am a slave to others'...nor are they to me. A slave to what is only their own...thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perspective and perceptions.

If you believe you will only acknowledge what is hers until she acknowledges what is yours...then do you not remain a slave? By your own choice?

Tired of conflict...if you choose to see everything in your relationship as conflict, that's exhausting. Of if you choose expectations to not feel the way you do, then you will be experience being emotionally drained...and you have that choice and control.

Only you do.

Validation...your wife has treated you abominably. You have experienced intense pain, rejection, anger, sorrow, frustration...you have. And your resentment has taken these emotions and distorted their information, heightened, deepened it...doubled it. I'm asking you to distill the information you're really getting, from your beliefs, for clarity.

To clearly see what is before you, within you...shifting your focus...one step I used was doing a resentment timeline...

Another was choosing to believe others are not doing to me...to not allow myself to DJ, or to judge at all, since it is a sharp tool I kept cutting myself with...until I could use it discerningly...

Because you have been through all this in other relationships...would you consider self is waving a big red flag at you to get to your own stuff, finally, so that these intense emotions may ease, that you may experience your life within a relationship to be expansive, intimate and free?

LA

IC are hard to get a hold of. Been trying to get an appt since Monday.

The BIG RED FLAG is waving for me to get my stuff. Last night, it told me to get out. I have an hour commute, and called about 20min from home, to let her know I would be home shortly. Got home and she is upset that I didnt call to talk to her on the way home (I guess that is the reason - she wouldn't actually define the reason for me). I told her I didnt as I needed to decompress from the day. That was interpreted as being P/A and that, therefore, she was going out-of-town to visit a male friend of hers, get attention there as there wasn't any here.

Ok, have fun, I said. Then she wanted to know when I was leaving, what I would tell our friends, her children, etc. I said that I wasn't going to argue, not going to discuss any of this, as I didnt feel like her react was justified. And for the next 2hrs she followed me around the house, reading our old letters.

So, I tell her what my needs are (to decompress from the day). She takes it as being P/A against her wishes, wants to go spend time with a male friend in another town, and wants to know when I am leaving.

I am numb. I can't react to her anymore. Her threats and responses are completely irrational in my opinion, and as I told her last night, I am unwilling to accept her perspective. I accept she has one. My view is the diametrically opposite.

I am not going to separate, divorce, whatever until I can go over things with at least 1 IC.

Did you guys have an agreement to talk on the cell on your commute time?

If you didn't, I don't see the P/A behavior in not calling until there was only 20 minutes left in the commute.

What your WW said, "I'm doing this because you made me by not calling" is a selfish demand backwards...same thing. "If you don't do what I want, when I want it, then I will do this!" and that's abuse.

Sorry about the IC search...how about an MC that does IC, too?

That's how I did it. I did a net search for "saving" "marriages" "God" and "counseling" and came up with a solid counselor. Our insurance didn't cover it, though...

As your part, what is within your control (to an extent), could this be a reasonable goal? "You know what? I would love to spend my commuting time connecting to you. When we are safe with each other and share without blame, I do decompress. I know I can really enjoy your company and feel soothed. I feel a great deal of stress from your threats and abuse."

Would that statement come close to your truth?

Again...let go the response...this is about you, your power, your real truth.

Two hours...was this your predetermined progressive boundary enforcement in play here? "You are threatening me right now. When we can discuss this without threats, I will re-engage. I'll be back to talk to you in 20 minutes." Then you go into another room and decompress, breathe...settle your mind to get to where your blood isn't pumping out of your ears.

She follows you. Turn to her and look her in the eye, "I am feeling flooded with emotions right now. You are crossing my boundary again. If you choose not to wait until I can settle my emotions, I will have to leave."

Next enforcement, take a walk. "I will return in 30 minutes."

When you return...if she continues the threats, "You are choosing to blame shift and makes threats against our marriage. I will not discuss this with you until tomorrow morning. What time is good for you?"

All calm, reasonable and sincere.

Then you pack an overnight bag and leave.

None of your enforcements are to change her...they are to tell self, "Self, you're worth respecting, loving and protecting from abuse."

Now, was your answer to her threats, "Okay, have fun" your truth? Your real truth? I believe this was your reaction, not your chosen action...am I close?

You can accept everything about her...that she makes SDs, DJs and AOs...her perspective of victim and her feelings of neglect, rejection, not believing she is loved or cherished...total package...accept as hers. Not you making, doing.

You didn't tell her what your needs are...about the decompressing...you said that as the reason why you did not call...can you see the difference? Listen and repeat worked with our P/A behaviors..."I hear you saying that because I didn't call you when I began my commute, you feel neglected and unimportant, is that correct?"

No refutation...no reasons why you didn't. Ascertain what she felt and hand it back to her.

When she was following you around, reading the letters, there was a good opportunity for "I" statements. "I'm feeling engulfed right now, by a lot of fear, anger and pain."

Knowing your emotions at the time and stating them...doesn't mean she's causing it; does share what you're feeling, what your perspective is..."I am hearing you say I fail you at every turn. Is that what you're really saying to me?"

And if it is...know that's her expectations, not you doing it.

So, did you agree to communicate more by phone when you weren't together, part of the UA stuff? To meet her EN of conversation or attention?

This is very difficult to do with a wayward state of mind who also has a history of P/A behaviors. Heck, the wayward state of mind IS P/A, IMO.

Was that Big Red Flag saying, "Enforce your boundaries!" and handing you the most extreme one? On this website , Al Turtle teaches about boundaries and enforcements...and says beware using a nuclear warhead (from anger) when you only needed a flyswatter. And vice versa, too.

I go back to you resisting what wasn't yours...her actions you can judge; not her perspective, her stuff. She doesn't have to justify her stuff...it's her. And are actions justifiable, or are they what they are?

Wow...that's a lot of pain you had last night...how is today?

LA

Had my first counseling session. Not sure I approve of the way it went. Think I held too much back, but I wasnt sure about trust. The last counseling session I went through, the counselor emailed notes of our session to my wife. Then, those got thrown back in my face. So much for confidentiality. Of course in this case I signed some privacy documents. Not in the other, but it was with our minister ...

I felt like I was asking the counselor to teach me how to play the violin while Rome burned around me.

All this talking about everything perpetuates a lot of the negative feelings inside me. And I mean negative. I thought I could keep the negativity at bay. But even in absence there are reminders. Such as all the tv channnels that have been locked-out, the television shows that we dont watch, the movies we dont see, etc. Because she doesnt like watching/viewing shows with "stupid females." Definition of a show with stupid females: shows with females that arent Jodie Foster. She is the only female about whom she had anything remotely positive to say. If I dress for work, she wants to know who I am dressing for. I dont wear cologne anymore as I must be wearing for someone at work since she doesnt work with me. Good grief.

And this all started well before the events of last November.

Things are ok, now. She says she "accepts" me. She has said this before only to reneg, in order to placate me and provide a way for us to remain together. Problem is, with all this junk, and the continuing discussion of all this junk, I'm not so sure I am as accepting of her.

We almost got into last night. I taped a show that came on early in the morning, and it happened to capture one of those terrible "Girls Gone Wild" commercials. She freaked-out, and, rather than fast-forward past the commmercial, she immediately had to record over the commercial. I told her that she should just fast-forward, then after we finish watching my program, she could just record over the whole tape. Nope, not good enough. Then she wanted to know why I was so mad at her and why I was opposed to taping over the commercial. I wasnt yelling, screaming, I used a calm voice and offered that she could wait until we were finished watching to "fix" the tape. Nope, not good enough. She wanted to know why and I told her that I was told her my feelings and the issue is over for me.

But the cracks are still present, still fragile, a momentary peace until the next misstep.

Next counseling appt is next week. Debating about how much disclosure I should engage in. Any suggestions?