I'm not even going to attempt to advise you on what to do with this, but I wanted to bump this up for you so that it will be seen by someone who can give you some guidance. I so remember that out-of-control, wtf do I do now feeling and I'm so sorry you're going through this.

I do know that exposing to anyone and everyone you can is recommended to bust up the affair. And just in my opinion, I wouldn't let him see you lose control over this. Not sure if you'll be advised to confront him or not, I know that everytime I came across anything that even seemed like contact, I couldn't control myself and confronted him, that didn't always turn out so well because it was so hard for me to keep up my Plan A appearance while doing that.

I hope you've settled down a bit and someone comes along soon with some real advice for you...Hang in there..

I loved the village bicycle quip. Too funny.



Another point here that FWIW, I think may be a factor. This OW being the office wh*re, the bicycle that many man have taken for a spin is probably a big part of the problem now for your FWH. The truth here is that now that he's had his ride, it is likely that he doesn't want to ride again.

Now the rub is that taking that ride has really screwed up his life in a major way. Even if he has no desire or intention to have further intimate contact with OW, you as the BS are never going to be comfortable with him even passing OW in the hallway.

This, my friend, is the price of playing with fire...and I think, that your FWH is finally starting to realize this, and he doesn't like it. Stick to your boundaries.

Good luck!

Who

I just got off the phone with his x-boss. He says that exposing at work is a BAD idea, that not much at all will happen to either of them, and it will just cause resentment. He has had long conversations with H about everything.

He says that I need to leave and stay gone. He's basically saying go to Plan B already. He says that H is definitely cake-eating and needs to really, truly figure out what he stands to lose, and that he hasn't yet because I keep coming back too soon. I told him about this site, he has been here because he and his W are recovered from a similar issue. I told him this site would say not to do that, and to Plan A.

He says it's not time for Plan A anymore, because H wants both things. He wants OW because she's mysterious and aloof, and x-boss says I need to be that way.

He said instead of me leaving this time, I should tell H to leave.

All of his advice flies in the face of what I've read here. I thought I had my Plan A all figured out and was so strong about it, but now I don't know.

PLEASE, someone help!! What do I do????

Ami,

Perhaps this man knows more about this than your FWH has admitted. I still think that you should move home.


I agree with this. If FWH wants to eat cake, let him find his own place if he can't agree with your boundaries. I think plan B will work better if you are in the home and he is elsewhere. It will disrupt his life more and yours less.

Who

I will just repeat Melody's advice -

"AmiWalsh, your next step is tell him truthfully that there is no hope unless ALL contact ends. You need to be brutally honest about your expectations. You and I both know there IS something more he can do. But he is not going to do it if he doesn't have to, though.

Start there. If that does not impel him to leave the company, then you can expose him at work and see if that does the job. [don't tell him you may do this]

But you have to start by telling him this is a firm boundary you are not going to forgo. Because I assure you this is all hopeless if you do because the affair will be endless. "

--------------------

Ami,

I completely agree with moving home. He should be the one looking for new digs....besides....you don't want your own home to become a place he can bring the OW...that causes enormous problems to overcome when you reconcile.

For cake eaters who refuse to end all contact....I recommend going to Plan B relatively early....otherwise the horrible feelings of repeated betrayal and conflict quickly empties the love bank. It's very hard to do a good Plan A when you have multiple d-days.

Exposure: Not all businesses are equal in the their reponse to affairs. Some are very proactive against it....and others either ignore or encourage it. I would begin exposure with his parents and siblings....along with the pastor of your church. Those are people who are likely to support your marriage and people you may be able to call upon for support.

My most important advice is to try your best to calm down. Weeping, begging, demanding, clinging, fighting etc. are just not very attractive. You need to be calm and smart right now. Try to "act", and not "react". Tell your husband what you know and how you know it. Request that he actually follow through with REAL no contact, and the extra-ordinary precautions necessary to begin healing your marriage. Counseling (preferably with the Harleys) would be part of that. If he refuses.....go to Plan B.

Thank you for the advice, I am truly a mess right now, so I haven't confronted him yet, but am planning on it tonight.

I guess I'm finally, finally figuring out what noodle was saying ... I've already lost everything, so the fear that I had of losing it, that was holding me back from setting boundaries, really wasn't real. The realization that it's already gone has been hard to come by.

I have one big problem with me moving in (which I had already done) and him moving out. I do not have any legal custody right to the kids, and we had both agreed that they need to stay where they are, for their stability. I am not sure that I *can* kick him out, because of them. I know he wouldn't leave without them, but it's not like there's a place for all three of them to go. Does anyone have any advice specific to that situation? Maybe I need a lawyer.

Do I need to start a PBL?

What exactly should I say tonight when I confront him about the call?

I'm at least not bawling at work anymore, I'm a little more centered. Just totally pissed right now. I'm holding myself down from going to her house and having a very ugly confrontation there. I will confront him, first, though ... tonight.

That @ss just had the nerve to call me and chit-chat like it was nothing, about plans for our kids after school today.

Before he hung up he said "love you".

Bull s#!t. If you loved me, you wouldn't be chatting with your little side fling, you lying, stinking, worhtless gutter rat.

(Sorry, really just needed a vent. I'm so angry with him right now. Which is probably good, keeps the tears under control. It's definitely not helpign with my productivity at work at the moment, though.)

Calm down, and keep working on a plan. You might want to see a doctor for some anti-D's if it is starting to be a problem at work. That's what I did. I spent months after D-day sitting there like a zombie.

But feel free to vent here. We know how you feel. It's better than saying it to him.

Thank you, I am on AD's, have been since D-day 1. My Dr. has just recently upped my dose, though, so that hasn't all taken the full effect yet.

I'm not sure that there are enough AD's in the world to help with the distraction of all this. It's pretty consuming.

I wish they could just numb all the pain....

I just want to scream.
And now I'm back to crying instead of the anger.

Hi Ami, first off, his XBoss gave you very bad advice. He knows nothing about busting up an affair. It may be true that his company will take no action,but the very fact that they are EXPOSED at work will put a huge damper on the affair. It is no fun to smoke crack when you know people are watching.

And of course your H will "resent" the exposure. Does anyone in their right mind imagine he will like being exposed? Your goal here is not to APPEASE your H but to make the affair so uncomfortable that he will have to end it.

So, get to work, Ami. Send a letter NOW to Human Resources, his boss, her boss and any other key people at the company.

If there are any other exposure targets, such as his parents, your parents, close friends, I would do that too. I would also tell his children what is going on.

Get to work, Ami, we knew this was not over, and you have work to do!

ML,

I agree that this exboss guy knows nothing about busting up affairs....but probably alot about this particular company. I think their likely reaction does matter though....because the purpose of exposure is to create discomfort because the WS has to face the censure of folks whose opinion he values....and those people who support his marriage. Sounds like that won't happen too much at the office from the sounds of things. If company exposure only creates drama and disapproval of the BS....and in some companies...it does....then the effect can actually backfire. I hope Ami DOES expose to the other wives this has affected directly....but I'd try exposure in the closer circles first.....his parents, siblings, pastor.....and if none of that helps....then go to the HR dept. as a last resort.

I really like to see exposure accomplished with great poise and class. Start with the inner circle and expand outward....continuing to be mindful of the fact that it will be uncomfortable for the folks who will be hearing it too and asking for their help....as opposed to simply exposing sordid details or gossip.

She doesn't mention the ages of her children....but they sound too young for exposure from what she has said. And the two children from his previous marriage have already lost their mother and she has no legal leg to stand on if he decides to keep them from her because she's exposed this to them.

When it comes to exposure....I just don't think one size fits all. Each situation has to be evaluated to use the best process for exposing so the the aim is reached....damage the affair....and limit the damage to the marriage. Exposure is going to be met with anger....there is no hope for that....but it's anger quickly put aside if it's done in an ethical way and obviously aimed towards saving the marriage and establishing accountability and no contact.

Workplace exposure is particularly sensitive....and while I completely support it as a last resort if the core exposure is unsuccessful....I see better results in recovery when it isn't necessary. I respect your opinion....and humbly present mine. As a proponent of exposure....I truly believe in it's power....but I like to see it expressed in calm and strength....rather than a sweeping vendetta style. KWIM?

I agree that every case is different, however, I don't believe that even in the absence of censure [which we don't even know] that the workplace exposure would be a loss. If the affairees know they have been exposed at work, they will be less inclined to carry it on when they know people are aware and are watching. It would create a much needed conflict at work that might propel him - or her - to leave the company.

I didn't get the sense that these were real little children, but if they are under 5, I would agree. Otherwise, I think it is important that the children are told since their lives are being uprooted and effected by the affair. They need to know what is going on. Kids can deal with the truth, they can't deal with lies. As Dr. Harley would state, "children should always be told." Especially since he may be dragging them into his affair. He will be less able to do so if they know what is going on.

And I agree it should be expressed in calm and strength. I would never suggest a "sweeping vendetta style" and never have.

Yes exposing at work IS bad, that is how this whole A business works isn't it? There are consequences to every action...

And I wanted to bring up something you had said a few times...that he had blamed you for going back with her...had smothered him...bullchips...if you had that much power in your life you would be married to superman. There was absolutely nothing you did or said that DROVE him to her...that was HIS choice alone, and had nothing to do with you. That was a cowards way of dealing with his guilt...blaming someone else.

I don't want you to blame yourself for this A...this is ENTIRELY between these 2 bicycle enthusiasts. What you DO have control over is any problems in your M...pre-A, and after...but the choice to have this A rests solely on the WH's shoulders...

Hey, if you HAD the power to drive him to her can you come here? My DS won't eat his broccoli, perhaps you can make him eat it?

Thank you both so much for the input. Mel, I wish I had been listening to you all along and insisting on complete NC.

Let me try to answer some questions. We only have two children -- biologically his. They are 10 and 13, which may be old enough to understand, I suppose, but star*fish is absolutely right -- they already have one parent (bio-mother) who they can't trust or count on, I will not take that faith in their father away, too. And legally, they are a HUGE trump card for him -- Even if it would be the one key to saving out marriage, I can't and won't mess with my or his relationships with them. I love them too much to do that to them, and he really is a good father for them.

My only biological child (with DH) was born too early and did not survive, so there are no other living children besides the two that are biologically only his.

As far as exposure circles -- his entire family, my family and anyone any of them have ever come into contact with already know. He exposed to his family after D-day #2, when we were discussing divorce (Easter weekend, wasn't that nice?). All have been incredibly supportive of me and chastizing him. That got really old (for both of us) really fast. We both got flooded with way too much bad advice and gossip and everything else. It was terrible, but his family was incredibly good about coming down on him hard for the behavior, but still loving him as a son/brother/etc. They were also very interested in staying connected to me, and have been very loving and supportive.


As far as exposing at work ... I was trying to be careful about divulging too many personal details, but it will probably help to know that H is in law enforcement. In our area, there is one dispatch center that is a private company, but dispatches for all emergency personnell in about a 500-mile raidus (several cities' police deaprtments, State Patrol, County deputies, ambulance, fire departments -- everything). OW is a dispatcher.

Exposing to H's command line *would* get him investigated, and would go in his file, but since none of this has been while he's on-duty, the worst that he could get is a reprimand for unbecoming off-duty behavior. Exposing to her boss would probably not have much affect at all, they do not care there. However, if I exposed to all of the very high commands of all the law enforcement that this company dispatches for, and could prove that this was a serial thing for her and her little friend (which I can), THEN they may put enough pressure on this private company to get rid of her. But I'd have to go so high up the chains of command for all the departments -- cheifs of police, elected sheriff's, etc., that it would cause all kinds of ****** before anything would happen to her. X-boss (who is still high up in H's organization, but the boss of another department now -- he taught our pre-marital counseling class and was the leader of our church small group for years) said that it would be extremely difficult to get that high up in all departments, and to convince them all that this was worth doing something about. He recommended that if I really wanted to have any impact on her, that I should confront her directly. So far, she has always hidden from me.

I AM, tonight, calling the one other wife whose husband is currently being chased by the other dispatcher "bicycle", because she is the only other one currently being affected. H will be pissed, and her H will be pissed that he told me, but she has a chance before things get to where they are with H and I, so I owe it to her.

I still haven't decided about a general warning to other wives that I know in H's department. I don't think it would be well-received. I wouldn't have believed that it could apply to me before all of this came down.

Sorry for too much detail, but maybe it helps with some of the advice? Thank you SOOO much for helping me sort through all of this.

-Ami.

LOL!! Thank you, I really needed to hear that.

And you're right, I can barely get my own kids to choke down their veggies, either ... I certainly can't make a grown man go do anything that he didn't want to do.

Thanks. I can't tell you how much that one comment made me feel better. I was taking full responsibility for the A, and for him going back the second time.

Ami..

Part of the reason that he is able to be so nochalant and loving right now..is 'cause he's cake eating.

Who isn't happy with a mouth full of cake, I ask you? [OK a little inappropriate humor..please forgive]

Here's the thing.

You already knew this. Finding the phone call in the log..may have given you precise coordinates..but really..if you were making judgements based on facts..you knew that the affair was still active.

So, this is part of the fun I was warning you about. Not that I don't sympathize..I'd be the first to invite you over for a few stiff drinks and sing a generous round of "that rat [email]b@st@rd"[/email] but right now let's deal with the issue at hand.

First of all..your Hs boss doesn't know anything about affair dynamics..he's pulling advise out of his butt and offering you a bit [which also just happens to be extremely self serving] ...you see..if you expose your H at work..you have essentially dropped a bomb..guess who has to participate in the cleanup?

Hs boss doesn't WANT to go there. He wants you to sit down and shut up. Just get in line behind the slut. Then if things don't work out..hey, it wasn't meant to be and it's sure too bad..but at least it didn't interrupt his powerpoint meeting.

This man is not a friend to you or your marriage. Blow him off.

Exposure is not about retaliation, and it is not about immediate results. It is about bringing reality into the affair..exposing the happy secret couple and forcing them to swallow what they have been stirring.

Once people know there is no going back.

Even if this particular boss..or company does not officially oppose affairs..there are a lot of individuals inside those walls..and every one of them has their own opinion. Want to bet that not one single person has ever been the victim of their spouse having an affair? Want to bet that none object on principle? Even if they all did..the disinfectant qualities of REALITY still apply.

If you have not done plan A..my advise would still be to do so.

Exposure is a very important part of plan A. I really, REALLY want you to study these things Ami before you go off half cocked.

Plan A is a very important tool, it is not just about being nice and meeting ENs..as a matter of fact..you will have MORE opportunity to voice some uncomfortable truths in plan A than at any other time. In plan B all you have is silence and the wait to withdraw enough from your marriage emotionally that you are prepared for divorce..so don't go to plan B prematurely. In plan B your part of the negotiations is OVER..you have drawn a line in the sand and stand by silently and darkly while H makes his OWN decisions.

I would advise that your plan A be short on length..because your H IS cake eating..he isn't withdrawn per say from the M..IF and only IF *you* can sustain it. Plan A will be the most difficult thing you ever do in your whole life. By comparison plan B will seem a relief.

Think about this. Plan A is a painfull road to take..it will require more of you than you may be able to give..honestly the BEST way to decide if you are up to it is to become intimately familiar with it.

Don't feel rushed..rome wasn't built in a day..better to pull back and mull for a period of time..weigh the cost and make a choice rather than a fall into desperate reaction mode.

The only thing worse than a failed plan A is a failed plan B..all in good time.

Study, study, study.

Do you have the books yet?

What he told you is a pack of crap, Ami. I wonder if he is carrying water for your H and trying to help him cover his tracks with horrible advice like this. What will speaking to the OW get you? NOTHING!

ami, you have a very powerful weapon in your hands if you will only use it. Exposure at work will likely cause him and her so much trouble that he has to leave. That is what has to happen if you want this affair to end. Otherwise, he has no motivation to end it. This has nothing to do with "revenge" but everything to do with ending this affair and saving your marriage. If you expose this affair at work, you have a chance. If you don't, you can see for yourself what you have in store.

Now, about his children. Children from broken homes are not morons who are not able to deal with the truth. His children know that something is going on here and need to be told. They CAN deal with the truth, they CANNOT DEAL with lies. Thier background is even more reason that they should be told the truth. Children are not made secure by telling them lies. They are made secure by stable adults, in a stable environment, something they do not have right now. Deluding them about their father will not make their environment stable. Rather the truth will help them deal with the reality because you can give them guidance once the truth is in the open. It is not "love" to help your H lie and trick them.

But, that can come later. Ami, if you want to have an effect, expose at work. Go up as high as you need to in order for an impact to be seen. but above all, DO NOT believe your H's Xboss. He has not a CLUE what he is talking about and is very probably trying to shut you up.

Thanks, Noodle. You are good at telling me the things that I know but don't want to hear or acknowledge. It always makes me want to argue with you and justify things ... just like I do with myself when I don't want to know something that I know.


I knew that I was going with Plan A, and assuming that the affair was active because he hadn't agreed to NC ... but I truly bought the excuses and rationalization ... can't NC because of work, have this great accountability system in place, have told her where she stands ... all that other [email]cr@p[/email] that he said. I KNEW better than to trust him, that's why I was checking his cell phone. But I really, really wanted to.


I was looking at it as retaliation. I was trying to figure out how highup I needed to go to get her or him fired. But to just expose it to the light, I could do that by exposing around him, and her, both. It wouldn't get either one of them fired, but it would make things pretty uncomfortable for both. I might be more ok with that than my all-or-nothing thought that I needed to get everyone from the President on down involved.



I really thought I had been doing Plan A. I've poured thorugh all of the books countless times, had an outline, had a plan, was trying like crazy to meet his EN's, and avoid LB's, got him to agree that he would tell me about any contact, and that he had an "accountability system" in place to avoid any inappropriate contact, we discussed what had lead up to the affair and what needed to be fixed in our marriage, I was working my tail off to make positive changes in myself .... I really thought I was doing Plan A.

And I was ok with it when I thought he wanted the marriage back, too.

But the truth is, that he has specifically refused to agree to NC. He has also said that some of the best advice he got was someone told him that whatever he was going to do, do it 100% -- if it was get out, then get out, if it was get me back, then do that 100%. I asked him in counseling if he had decided that he was going to try to work on the marriage 100%, and he just said "it looks like it's headed that way".

So he doesn't want to commit to working out the marriage, he's paying lip-service and cake-eating.

In the "surviving...." chapter of HNHN, it says that if the WS will not agree to NC, then the BS should be prepared for a period of separation, which could get lengthy. Maybe it's skipping through Plan A to Plan B. SAA illustrates Plan A as being in use during an on-going affair. But he gets to ask her about if she stuck to the agreement, and my H won't even make the agreement.

I really thought I had done the research and was doing it right, but maybe I'm missing some huge chunk??


There was no exposure the first time, but this time half the world knows. The story keeps coming back to us after it's gone through 40 different people. Someone will come up to one of us and say "I heard .... " So it's not a secret, I just haven't made it widely known at his work. Yet.


Got any ideas on length? Do I forget about even trying to catch him in lies and speaking to her or seeing her or whatever anymore? I don't think I can take any more "revelations".


Thanks, this is a good point. My plan was to not confront him about this yet until I had a plan, and then maybe wait until our MC appointment on Wednesday.



Yes, I've had them since the first d-day, and have been reading them over and over and over. I have about 8 different books, but have mostly been entrenched in in SAA and HNHN.



Sometimes I hate reading my own posts, it sounds lie a bunch of excuses for being weak and pathetic. Thanks (to ALL the posters) for putting up with me and offering advice anyway. This board is the only palce I've gotten anything really helpful.

Yes, I can def. see it now, I wish I had listened to you earlier. If the point is just to make life difficult for both of them and to expose it to the people around them, I can do that much easeir than I can go up the chain of command. Would making it widely known at his rank and within just his direct command be enough, do you think?

Don't know why I still feel the need to protect him and his job, he obviously doesn't feel the need to protect me.


I really do consider them my children, too. It may not be legally, but I have been the only mom they've known for most of their lives and have been the primary caregiver due to H's work schedule. Anyway, we have told them that "we couldn't stay married anymore", but not WHY. We haven't said that we were working on things and trying to make it work, because we don't want to give them false hope, although it's pretty obvious that I'm living back in the house right now. So I don't think that we're deluding them or lying to them. H has told me that I COULD tell them if I wanted to. This one is my choice.

And I'm sure I will come to regret it later and say "I wish I had listened to you on this before, Mel." But I really do feel very strongly about this one.


Wow, you and noodles both said this. I really was bought into what x-boss had said. Am I just way too naive and trusting? I really did think he had my best interest at heart.