Hi, Rinder! (Not sure how else to shorten your name?)


Yeah, I'm definitely there with you on the fear thing! It's been surprising to me to finally figure out that there is another way to communicate -- and live. Now if I could just get past the fear part and actually DO it .....

I liked the word list, too. I printed it to put on my fridge. I want my kids to learn how to do this stuff right, too -- now, while they are young enough to really learn it and get the skills down. Wish my parents had known about this stuff!

-AmI

AmI-I loved the homework assignment, it's really interesting. I printed it and showed it to H. Explained where I got it from and that you had referred everyone to the link. I asked him just to read the first two paragraphs, and I think he read almost the whole thing. He said that it was interested and put it next to me.

I was wondering if you know of any more assignments like that! Cool!

LOL!! Thanks, but I can't take too much credit for finding that assignment. I found the link to that board somewhere in a post around here, and then just stumbled onto that page. It was all very accidental.

I do think there was a part two to that assignment, but I have it bookmarked at work, not here. I'll try to post it tomorrow. Other than that, I haven't found any other things that specific. I'm still looking, though! Our MC isn't very proactive about "assignments" so I've been looking for things to bring to her.

This really caught my attention since it's the major thing I've been struggling with. I've been getting some great advice here - particularly from LA (who I just adore, BTW), and this "assignment" just kind of fit in perfectly and supported it all.

I might figure out this openness and honesty thing yet!

-AmI

:::gleefully jumping up and down with the "(who I just adore)":::

There are no accidents in my book. Take credit for passing on a spectacular coincidence...getting what you need when you need it most...no accident, AmI.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

That's part of being O&H...you begin inside yourself. Opening up your awareness is what you did...reading...thinking...that's being open to what God can bring to you...and you're doing that.

You are.

Did you pick up, "Healing The Shame That Binds Us" by John Bradshaw?

LA

Rinder,
Here's the Part 2 to that assignment. Not sure if it will help given the current developments for you -- so sorry to hear about that!

http://symcinc.com/getinformed/articles/hassignment2.html


LA,
It's true, I absolutely adore you! Even though all of your posts make me have to THINK and CHALLENGE myself and are not usually very comfortable for me to read and digest. I can't even begin to explain how much of a difference you've made for me. It's a whole new way of life that I always knew was out there, and was better, but that I just could never figure out how to get to. And you've been patient enough to explain it over and over and over and get it through my thick skull. I think you're fabulous.

I haven't picked up that book, I must have missed where you suggested it before. I will go look for it next week.

Right now, I'm preparing for a triathlon on Sunday. I am NOT athletic at all, but my sister talked me into doing this. It's a women's only, "sprint" version, which is shorter than a regular triathlon. And there's a woman who comes to these who's a world-class trathlete, has competed in the iron-man, etc. - and her whole job is to be the last one to cross the finish line -- so no one loses. Sis and I have only been training for a couple of months, so my goal is just to be able to finish it, but I'm pretty excited about it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-AmI

That's an exciting goal, AmI...great self-care and respect in attempting such a thing...takes all that stuff, doesn't it?

Believing in yourself...breaking a first...(keep a firsts list); opening up to group support and challenge...

Awesome. Let me know next week, when you can move your fingers again, if it is something you'd recommend for a really old gal like me, 'k?

Thank YOU for enduring the repeats, considering and choosing any part of what I share...that's all you...all the way.

LA

UGHHHHHH!! I just lost a really long post!!!!

No time to re-type, but I will give the super-condensed short version if I can.

I feel great recently. About myself and the progress I've made and who I'm becoming.

However, H continues to be distant and disinterested and won't talk. His method of communication these days is to shrug and grunt, or have one of the kids tell me something.

And I'm getting really tired of it. I'm getting very close to the point of not havingmuch feeling left at all for H, and I'm not sure what to do with that fact.

I have been checking, and have enough detailed information to KNOW that there has been absolutely no contact with OW since the day she was fired, and I could probably prove in court that there is no other A or other OW. So it isn't that. I supose it could still be withdrawl, but I'm not buying that much longer, either.

I want much, much better out of my marriage. I finally have some of the tools to be able to do that, and am finally making some big progress with some of the major roadblocks that I've faced all my life ... but the biggest weight still hanging around my neck is H. I can't drag him along, kicking and screaming. If he doesn't want better, then I can't force him to. But then I feel stuck.

I feel like there's nowhere to go right now. I can't Plan B, or walk away, because there is no more affair. I dont feel like it's ok to give up on my vows just because I'm unhappy with him right now, but I also don't know how much longer I will be able to stand him.

And then I feel bad for feeling that way.

So I am very confused and conflicted. I'm trying to pour it all out here to help me sort through it, but right now it's still feeling pretty jumbled to me.


As negative as this post sounds, I have to say that I actually feel GREAT. I'm havinga great day, a happy birthday, feel good about myself, and am actually kind of glad that H won't be there tonight for my birthday dinner. The kids and I have much more fun when he's not around. (Horrible thing to say, isn't it???)

Thoughts?

Thanks!

-AmI

AmI- thank you for the link, but for whatever reason, it can't be displayed!

It appears that you are still expecting something from him, what is it that you're trying to get from him that you can't get from yourself right now? It's still early in the game, apparently he's still not capable right now of whatever it is that your looking for.

What's holding you back from having fun with H around? Are you fearful of something, it seems like if H is in a bad mood then the whole house is in a bad mood. Do what you need to do to make you and the kids happy, if he choose not to join in, that him. Are you reacting to him instead of acting on your own accord?

Pre-D-day I was overjoyed whenever H would go out of town for the weekend, because the kids and I could relax, do whatever we wanted. There was no pressure more or less. What happen to change this? Me, my focus! I would focus on him saying to myself, it's me, I'm doing someting wrong, he's mad at me, got to protect the kids and make sure their quiet. I was uptight all the time. Could you explain a little more why you think you can have more fun without him around?

Patience, what happen to standing STILL?

Withdrawal is a bear, too, AmI...

It is withdrawing from the feelings, the high, not the person.

Takes more than two weeks...

Great time, as Rin suggested, to know your expectations...you just succeeded in something amazing, self-fulfilling and wonderful...on fire with your glorious self...

And FWH is not.

Big contrast, don't you think? He is experiencing grave loss of false feelings...which seemed real...didn't even understand how the turmoil, the sparse contact, affected those...and now it's stopped...no more spotlight...can feel like darkness.

In that darkness, when light was distraction, there is waiting guilt, shame, remorse...can feel numbing, depressed, and the precipice to look over to what if...what if AmI chose not to save the marriage...all that loss...for nothing...a fantasy...and he's not to that stage, which is crushing, demoralizing and a lost jungle of jumbled thoughts, beliefs and emotions...sorting between real and false ones...and all that self-betrayal, too.

Hard it was, AmI, to sit at our kitchen table and listen and repeat as my FWH mourned a fantasy...before he knew it was...to be in withdrawal...to use that phrase, "mourning" and my anger...worth every harsh moment, strong woman...I swear to you...because by staying safe, handing back, not owning what was his and not demanding he feel, think or believe differently, carried through to afterwards...

When the guilt takes breath, sucks life...and the shame crushes the chest...and you think you'll feel mighty and due...and you still feel for this human in misery...and stay listening, repeating...struggling against wanting to cure or control...to ease...what cannot be eased, only lived through.

Your choices, AmI...every step of the way. Great time to ask for communication exercises, focus those laser-light eyes of your competence on his and make your O&H statements...listen and repeat...make RC time, look inward, and lay down any measuring devices you use...

Rin gave you great advice...a valid option for someone who comes through, goes the distance and does so, for her...

You didn't decide to run that triathalon one day, and do it the next...you may have wanted to get to feeling as great as you do today, overnight...you had to train for it...wait for it to arrive...and you did. No doubt you can do this, if you choose to...

Your H is not a weight hanging around your neck...unless you choose that symbol. (Baaaad symbol) You are not carrying him...right now, he walks alone...from the sound of your post. He is completely separate from you, unless you're buying into being responsible for is only his own...his thoughts, feelings, beliefs, ideas, actions, lack of actions...all his own choices...no weight. Not around your neck.

What if you'd stopped at the swimming? Two-thirds of the way...and said, well...that's enough. I could do more, but why? Going all the way with what you know now, learning more, practicing and retraining your own brain...for you?

People don't hold back our lives...we have inherent and constant choice...and we are living today.

No bash...sharing who you are is what you're practicing...choose carefully your symbols...trace your feelings...own your stuff inside the way you just did on the outside...emotional muscle, mental flexibility, keen awareness...choose your perspective and perceptions...they are as much yours as your sunburn.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I was guessing.

LA

Thanks, ladies. I always appreciate your help.

You're right, I do have expectations of H, but I dont think they are very excessive, even for withdrawl. I expect a minimum amount of politeness and courtesy, and that's about it.

Instead, I'm lucky if he grunts and walks away, or sends me messages through the kids (dad said to tell you we need dog food). Those are best-case scenarios right now. More often, he's stomping around cursing and throwing tantrums. Yesterday, DD wasn't getting ready to go fast enough for him (they weren't going anywhere, and it's summer, so the kids don't have a set time to be ready by right now), so he cursed her out and made her mow the lawn. Our water bill was out-of-control high this month for some reason, so he yelled and cursed in my direction for about half an hour, then called the water company and did the same thing to the poor girl who answered the phone. If we're all going somewhere together, he will yell and curse about everyone not being ready to go, and tell us all to go "load up", but then he will find something to mess with (have a glass of tea, read something in the paper, call a friend, etc.) for 20 minutes while we're all out in the car waiting for him. He's very volatile, playing with the kids and laughing at some silly behavior, and then randomly exploding and imposing some massive arbitrary punishment for that same behavior. (Not physical, he doesn't hit, he makes them do laundry or chores or sit in their rooms, etc.)

As far as things between he and I ... well, there is nothing between he and I. When I try to talk to him, he will leave the room. I have been making "honesty statements" and and asking for specific communication exercises, and he will roll his eyes and walk away -- no response or even acknowledgement that I even opened my mouth. If I'm the only one in a room when he walks in, he will turn around and walk back out -- like he needs the kids there to be a conversation buffer. I can't listen and repeat, because he doesn't say anything to me other than when he's flying off the handle cursing.

I am meeting my own needs right now, and doing fun things with the kids. Last night, DD and I went and got manicures and pedicures. This weekend, while we were in Denver for the triathlon, he slept almost the entire time (even during the triathlon), so we did movies and shopping and things with the kids and had a great time without him. I'm working on me, and on having fun with the kids. And I think I'm doing a great job.

Him -- I'm just getting tired of. I'm having a hard time remembering what it is that I love about him. I still choose to love him, but keep asking myself "why????". And it's hard to not ask "what's in this M for me???" (The answer to that is the kids -- if he goes, they go, and that wold kill me).


Does this make any sense? Or am I just piling up a bunch of excuses? I don't think I feel responsible for his actions or feelings or whatever ... I just feel irritated by them. Like when someone has a wild child wreaking havoc in a restaurant and they condone the behavior and think it's "cute" so they don't do anything about it. I don't want to be around him, and I don't want the kids to have to, either. He can be a GREAT dad a lot of the time, he wrestles with them and jokes and has fun -- it's just the sudden quick-change demon head that comes out and bites them in half that I want to protect them from.


I feel stuck and then I feel bad for feeling this way about him. I want better than this, and really, I want it with him. But can't force or beg or wish him into that -- he has to choose it for himself. But does that mean I'm just stuck here waiting for him to choose that? Isn't that right back into enmeshment?


Ugh.

Rin, I'm not sure what's going on with that link, maybe the site was having problems when you tried it? It looks like it's working today.


LA,

You are right about the sunburn! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


-AmI

Denver? The Triathalon was in Denver?

ROFLMAO...no wonder it isn't coming up in my area...and I guess I really will have a year to train...'cuz...

I live in Denver.

Oh, AmI! I could have literally cheered you on.

I'm bereft. And embarrassed.

Ack.

Now...can we address the abuse, which is NOT part of Plan A?

Can't be?

Why would you allow your H to abuse your children or yourself? The cursing out...anger is difficult enough to deal with from a parent (you remember growing up, I know you do), but when it is accompanied by defining, swearing, and yelling...it will damage your EQ for decades...when you're a kid. Hard enough when you're an adult...am I right?

Your WH didn't have boundaries in place to protect your marriage from his choices...he doesn't have them in place to protect your children from his choices...LB's kill children's love banks, too...only I don't believe they can go empty, but they sure as heck get twisted up...

Please read The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans...and Between Parent and Child (Ears_Open knows the author)...as soon as possible. Identify abusive behaviors...in yourself and your WH...your job is to know and enforce healthy boundaries...around yourself and your children...and teach them boundary enforcements.

Rolling eyes is disrespect. Call him on it. Read up on P/A behavior...because your WH has more problems than withdrawal...and so do you, my favorite triathlete...

Denver! :::thunk::: <--sound of the heel of my hand hitting my forehead

LA

Yep, it was at Aurora reservoir. They shut down the entire place for it!

The bike route came out of the reservoir, then East on Quincy road for 5 miles, then back. Check out those hills sometime if you ever go out that way. I'm most proud of having conquered those things! (mostly, I had to walk part of two of them ... but I still made it!).

My sister lives over there, and I used to ... sometimes I miss it, but not the traffic or long drives. It takes me two minutes (yes, really, as in 120 seconds) to get to work, now. And I can get ALLLLLLLL the way across town in about 20 minutes, max. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I don't have an answer for this that doesn't sound like a bunch of excuses. This is not a constant thing for the kids, and it's been this way for a long time. We've talked about it a lot and went to several parenting classes pre-A, and he doesn't think there is a problem with it. It's become worse recently, he's much quicker on the trigger with them in the last month or so, but it's not all the time for them. They spend a lot more time trying to stay out of his way these days, where they used to want to be underfoot all the time and playing with him. But, with them, the rough stuff is still definitely a minority of the time. He's usually affectionate, VERY involved in their lives, just enough Disney Land to keep things fun, but also involved enough with school and activities that he knows when they get out of line.

He curses a lot in general -- probably can't go two sentences without saying the F word, (even at work, which, odly, seems to serve him surprisingly well). So when he flies off the handle, the cursing flows out pretty smoothly.

I've recently gotten to the point where I'll walk away when he starts it with me, which is at least better than I used to do.


That's so exactly right on. H does not have boundaries in general. We used to joke about him not having a filter between his mouth and brain, because whatever popped into his mind came straight out, regardless of whether or not it's appropriate. He's all about instant gratification and doing what he wants when he wants -- he hates any kind of authority. Sometimes this all can be good -- he's exciting and fun and interesting. People LOOOOOOVE to be around him and talk to him. But sometimes it's a problem. Besides the obvious, it's also gotten us into money problems before.



Ok. I'm headed to the bookstore tonight. I have a lot of reading to do this weekend!



How do I call him on it when he immediately walks away and doesn't listen? Chase him down the hall? Yell after him? Neither of those sound like very good options.

Maybe I don't know enough about it, but I have read the P/A thread, and I don't think there is anything "P" about H's "A" ... he isn't subtle or sneaky or undermining -- he is up-front and open and in-your-face with his anger.


I will be reading those books this weekend. We're going camping with the whooooole family (my mom and her husband, sis, H's parents, BIL and SIL, handful of cousins and lots of kids), so it should be fun, and I'll have enough quiet time to get some good reading in.

And it will be nice to have family around to relax and have fun with.

-AmI.

Why would all the time...or happening a lot...negate the abusive behavior?

No attack...I would like to hear what you believe.

Can you go back in time to your FOO and find out if you remember most how often or it happening at all...single instants of verbal abuse...and how you felt...just one time?

"How do I call him on it when he immediately walks away and doesn't listen? Chase him down the hall? Yell after him? Neither of those sound like very good options."

Here's a prime example of boundary enforcements...are you doing them to change him or you? If your boundary enforcement (first level) is to state the violation, "When you roll your eyes, I feel discounted"...and you say that immediately, he might hear you. He might hear the first part only, depending on how long his legs are and how fast he scoots down the hall...does it matter?

You will hear you say it. You will not betray and you will grow to not feel discounted. Calling people on their stuff isn't about them...it's about you. Trusting he heard...that your children heard, maybe...all the ways stuff can be felt, known, that we can't pinpoint...what you do and say matters to you.

Affairs are a passive-aggressive act...they are your spouse pretending to be in the marriage (passive) and acting aggressively against it.

Lying by omission (not stating his thoughts, feelings and beliefs nor hearing yours and acknowledging them) would be P/A, too...because his silence is passive (and can be aggressive); and his cursing is aggressive...reading on the net how to be assertive really helped me get the different behaviors and see them differently.

Sounds like a rejuvenating weekend, AmI...well-deserved to celebrate your accomplishment...and no, I don't get way out to Kansas, I mean Aurora, much...but when I do, I will look for those hills...though I won't promise to train on them until November...walking...LOL...they are having it next year, right?

I'm SOOOOO there. I'll be wearing a "AmI ROCKS!" t-shirt...pink one.

LA

I was thinking through this quite a bit last night ....

I never really had thought of this as abuse before, and was ok with it when it was not the only way he communicated with me. I have always just seen it as him having a volitile temper. I would try to avoid setting him off, and help the kids avoid it, and then most of the time, he was great to be around. Fun, happy, interesting, exciting, etc.

So maybe I'm used to making excuses for it. Maybe I'm used to ignoring it or glossing over it or sweeping it under the carpet, I don't know.


Yes, I can specifically remember as a child the very few times that my dad cursed at me. My mom never cursed, but I can specifically remember the one time that she was **screaming** mad. I remember the crushed-heart, hard-to-breathe, devestated feeling that I felt. And I feel it again now realizing that that's very likely how the kids feel every time he goes off on them.

So now I'm angry at myself for having let it go on for so long, and for not having recognized how damaging it truly could be for the kids.

And I'm also feeling overwhelmed, in a "great, another problem, so what do I deal with first" kind of way.

And Sad and Tired and Stuck ....


The lying by omission thing; not stating thoughts, feelings and beliefs nor hearing and acknowledging other's describes how **I** have been for a long time. It's the piece I've been working on, and feel like I'm making progress. It's the whole new way of life that I'm trying to learn. It's been WORK for me, but it's something I really want. I'm not understanding how to relate this to him -- I sure can't make him want or work on this kind of change.

:::::big sigh:::::


I got "Healing the shame..." and "between parent and child" last night. Had to order "Verbally abusive...", but I have plenty of reading to do until it gets here.


I'm looking forward to the camping weekend. DD left early today with my mom. She and her husband and H's parents are going up today, then we're all joining them tomorrow. It will be fun!

Yeah, if it hadn't been for those hills, I would have thought we were in Kansas, as far out as that reservoir was. They do have the danskin out there every year, so I'll be there again next year!

My sis and I had Superman t-shirts that we had dyed pink. They were a huge hit, we got so many comments on them from other racers. So now that I'm glowing to everyone and trying to recruit every woman I know to do it next year, I'm envisioning a whole PACK of pink Supergirls there next year! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi, AmI, just call me Rin!

I got the link to work an printed Thank you!
I hear a lot of your H in mine! I'm very inclined to think that he's ashamed, embarassed, definitily uncomfortable. It's almost like he has no clue how to express himself in a positive manner! Also, kept in mind that withdrawal can last up to six months.

Thanks, Rin.

I don't know if *I* can last up to 6 months ....


Sounds like you have a fun night planned with your H, tonight! That's great news!! :-)

AmI,

Why the anger at yourself? What can you do about what you didn't previously see? Let that part go...and know this isn't stress stacking...this is daily life, and you have two books to help you...and one more (you're gonna make me carry all these when we meet next year, arencha?)..."Boundaries in Marriage" or "Boundaries" by Cloud and Townsend...because what looks like another issue...is part of the whole...I promise.

I hear fear, AmI...and you just did a first ever...which is fear-work, in my book...and you taught your fear of failing, not finishing, not being good enough (and a whole bunch more) is okay, but unnecessary...because you don't fail, you do accomplish and you are worthy and valuable...every day. Every day you trained, you taught your fear to fear less...and sealed that on triathalon day.

Have you thought of making a list of firsts?

I hope you have a relaxing, loving weekend...stay open and honest...with those lovely "I feel" and "I believe" statements.

As you read, if you get excited, be excited; if you feel sadness, cry...and when you feel something resonate within you, glow...because you can. You're human.

LA

Well, aside from H stuff, I did have a really good day today. I got my desk cleaned off, made some points with my boss, and had the last day of a 3-day work-week (gotta like those!

And I also got a Happy Birthday e-mail from my dad today.

We haven't spoken or seen each other in almost two years. He's very "busy" and doesn't really respond to my sister or I. I used to e-mail and call him weekly, but after more than 2 years straight of that and only ever getting two responses (once when I told him I was pregnant -- I sent an ultrasound picture and his response was "He looks just like me with that bald head!", and once a couple of weeks after our son died -- he sent an e-mail that said "just forget about it and have another one." Several months later, my IC suggested that I just needed to tell him how to reach me and leave it at that -- no more weekly e-mails and phone calls since they were never returned.

So, that's what I did. I still send birthday and father's day and Christmas cards and gifts, but never get a response (although once his wife sent a thank you note, and once her daughter mentioned to me that he really liked something that I'd sent), which is ok because I don't expect it anymore.

So it was quite a surprise to get an e-mail from him today. And even more surprising, it was a long e-mail and talked about how he and his wife have been realizing recently how much time they spend building relationships with strangers and "trying to sell them things", while they neglect the relationships that are most important, like with me and my sister and his wife's kids.

I'm going to write him back, probably just a nice, light update on us. And then whether or not he responds back, it's still kind of nice that he wrote at all.


Maybe I need to lower my expectations of H the same way I did of my dad. I used to be hurt and feel rejected when he didn't respond to my e-mails and voice mail, but once I just accepted that, and realized what he was missing out on (kids, grandkids, family, holidays ... ), I just felt sorry for him. Probably not a super healthy attitude for a marriage, but it might help for right now....

At least until I can get through all of my reading assignments... (LA, you must be a teacher.... no kids to force homework on in the summer so you're taking it out on me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )