Trying again .... a letter to read to him at the MC's office. I know several people have said to drop the R talk ... does that even apply at the MC?

LA, is this any better? More honest?

I think it's still too long, and maybe still too preachy or teach-ey.



Dear H,

I’ve learned something recently that is a whole new way of thinking for me. I used to believe that if I was a good enough wife and mom, loved you enough, said and did just the right things, then I could MAKE you happy, that I could MAKE you want to stay with me; I could EARN your love and affection and attention. I also thought that if you didn’t give that love and affection and attention, it must be my fault – that I wasn’t good enough, didn’t deserve it, had failed or screwed up. I thought that I must have been really horrible to MAKE you go outside of our marriage.

But then I realized that, all along, I have always made the choice to love you. Good times, bad, arguments, pain, fun, work – whatever, it was still always my choice. It wasn’t based on if you were “good enough” or earned it or said or did the right things all the time. I love you because I choose to. The even bigger realization for me was that you, and everyone else, have the same choice. You decide whether to love or not, give affection or not, and it’s not about whether I’ve earned it or was good enough or smart enough or perfect enough or whatever to MAKE you love me. It’s your choice.

I finally figured out that my value is not tied to your (or anyone else’s) feelings or choices. I am a good, smart, competent and amazing woman. I obviously have plenty of flaws, but I also have so much light and love in me to share. I am an outstanding wife; loyal, adoring, talented, bright and tender. And I’m a devoted mom, a capable partner and a great friend. I am an asset, and I’m certainly worthy of love, affection and time. I am NOT a burden, or an inconvenience to just be tolerated. And all of those things are true whether or not you choose to love me, or be affectionate, or want to be with me. I’m not responsible for your choices or feelings, just my own.


My choice, right now, is to work on building a better life. To learn how to be honest and open and real and not just say and do what I think people want to hear or see from me. I choose to forgive – myself and you and all the other pain that’s in the past. To learn from my mistakes and not beat myself up over them anymore. I’m learning how to identify, own, and share my real feelings.


Recently, I have been feeling defeated and exhausted. I feel rejected, trampled and discarded. I am frustrated and angry, losing steam fast, and barely hanging on to the last shreds of hope.

I want so much better than this. I really believe that we can get back the spark and love that we once had, and I want us to be each others’ support, cheerleader and best friend again. I think we still have a chance to have a happy, exciting, honest, loving, supportive, great marriage. That’s what I really want, and I want it to be with you.

I won’t continue to settle for anything less.

I am committed to working towards that fun, loving, intimate marriage and future. I will do whatever it takes, for as long as it takes, to get there. I will not put any more strength or effort into a relationship of convenience, detachment, withdrawal, indifference, or rejection.

After all that we’ve put into our lives together, all we’ve been through and all we’ve invested in each other, I absolutely believe that we could have a future that’s worth fighting for. And I hope that you choose to fight for it right alongside of me.

Whatever you decide, my value, happiness, worth – who I am as a person – is not dictated by that choice. I realize now that I can’t be “good enough” to make you want a life with me, and can’t be bad enough or worthless enough to make you leave. You have the same choice – whether or not to love, to stay, to try for something better – that I have made.

Ami,

Didn't your H say that one thing he really disliked about you was that you weren't open or honest with your feelings?

Have you always been in fear that he'd leave you if you didn't always try to do everything? You work full-time too, right? And you do all the housework, care of his kids and cooking? Does he or has he ever done anything for you?

I don't know about reading the letter to him in MC, but it helps you to get your feelings straight to write it all down. Does your MC seem to know what he/she is doing?

Your H certainly hasn't minced words with you, even though he was the one who betrayed you. He's being so nasty and cold, do you think there's any way that he's back in contact with OW or maybe even another woman? I'm no expert on this stuff, but it seems that people are jerks to their spouses when they're trying to justify their own reprehensible behavior.

I think you should tell him how you really feel and how much he's hurting you and how you feel he's abusive to you and to the kids. Your MC can help you to talk to him about all this.

I can't remember the very beginning of your story when you first came on MB. How did he treat you before the A (was it his first?) and has he always been cold to you and expected you to do everything in the home? It really sounds like you have plenty of grievances and that he's not doing much of anything as a H or friend. You need to find out what's going on with him and find out what you really want and need.

I'm sorry he's being so awful. I hope the MC helps you to get back on track.

Thanks, Grownup.

Didn't your H say that one thing he really disliked about you was that you weren't open or honest with your feelings?

Have you always been in fear that he'd leave you if you didn't always try to do everything?

My H has said that he thought I should talk about the problems and bring them up ... but then he's also said that he doesn't want to talk about them. I'm the one realizing that I need to learn to be open and honest. Yes, I have always been in fear that he would leave if I didn't do things right -- but not because he ever implied that -- mostly because of my own insecurity.

You work full-time too, right? And you do all the housework, care of his kids and cooking? Does he or has he ever done anything for you?

We both work full time, he works nights. We share the house work. I cook and grocery shop, he and the kids do most of the laundry ... we both clean when we can. When they are not in school, he takes care of the kids during the day and I take care of them in the evenings. So we share household stuff pretty evenly.

I don't know about reading the letter to him in MC, but it helps you to get your feelings straight to write it all down. Does your MC seem to know what he/she is doing?

No, that's the biggest problem. She is terrible. Most of our sessions are just sitting around chatting for at least the first half. He's a great conversationalist and can tell the most interesting stories. We don't get much done in our sessions. That's why I wanted something specific to read, to keep myself and the whole conversation on track. I'm already re-thinking the letter, though.

Your H certainly hasn't minced words with you, even though he was the one who betrayed you. He's being so nasty and cold, do you think there's any way that he's back in contact with OW or maybe even another woman? I'm no expert on this stuff, but it seems that people are jerks to their spouses when they're trying to justify their own reprehensible behavior.

I'm very positive that there's no OW right now, and no contact with the previous OW. I have access to enough evidence of it every day that I could probably prove it in court for him if I ever had to. I can verify his story all the time, have access to calls and records that he knows about, and even more that he doesn't.

I do think he's been trying to justify his behavior. He's taken responsibility for it, but also wants to justify it.

I think you should tell him how you really feel and how much he's hurting you and how you feel he's abusive to you and to the kids. Your MC can help you to talk to him about all this.

(sigh) I guess I'm the ultimate conflict avoider ... I kind of thought I was saying that in the letter. Too much sugar-coating, still, huh?

I can't remember the very beginning of your story when you first came on MB. How did he treat you before the A (was it his first?) and has he always been cold to you and expected you to do everything in the home?

This was his first A, and until about a year ago, he was great to me. He has always had a temper, and will curse and get nasty (never violent) pretty suddenly and out of the blue, but then gets over it just as suddenly. And he was always very affectionate and fun and protective. We've gone rounds before on the housework, but usually end up with a fairly even split. He has never been this cold and distant before. Even during the A -- he wasn't great then, but he also wasn't so completely detached.


It really sounds like you have plenty of grievances and that he's not doing much of anything as a H or friend. You need to find out what's going on with him and find out what you really want and need.

I guess that's what has me so twisted up right now. He used to be so incredible, my best friend, the one person who I always wanted to be around ... I don't know how to explain it other than to call him very old-fashioned, always taking care of us. Sometimes gruff, but in that protector kind of way. But now I can't find any of that left in him. It's so confusing and defeating. I want my old H back ... not this cold, hard stone.


Thanks for your input. I'm really turned pretty upside down right now, so it helps!!

AmI,

How about asking your MC for what you want? Right away, say, "I feel jealousy when we come here. When you and H chat, telling stories, I feel like you're getting more of my H's attention than I do in between sessions. I feel rejected and feel my H is cold and distant to me and not with you. I am feeling very cold and distant from my H. I feel like a hard stone."

"I really need your help."

Straight out, AmI...your feelings are valid.

What do you think?

Recovery is slow...time matters...

I believe your letters are for you...self-affirming, getting your new belief set in place...very important...and a time to learn you are your own protector...

LA

Ami,

Maybe your H is being a jerk to you because he feels so much guilt and looking at your reminds him of his failings.

From what I know of your situation, which is limited, if I were you I'd try to keep it very simple with him -- no long discussions. Men (especially when they're irritable) often tune out long discussions. So, condense everything you feel and want to say down to a few key sentences and really get to the point.

Just throwing this out, but how about (in MC):

----
I miss you terribly. You were my best friend and now you're cold and distant and blow up at me, saying things that make me feel that you don't care at all about me.

I just want to move on. I want to be friends again. Can we just lighten up and try to have fun together and rebuild our friendship?

I can get past this and forgive you and move on, if we can start enjoying being together. What do you want? I can't read your mind, so please tell me.

----

You might also make it clear that when you feel he's going over the line in his cursing and spouting mean and hurtful garbage at you, that you will not accept it. Just let him know, without a huge explanation that you are not going to allow that anymore. You don't need to go into details, because I'm sure he knows that it's completely wrong.

Outside of MC, I'd try to lighten up as much as you can. Vent here and to your friends and continue working out your feelings. But, it really doesn't sound like he's ready to handle deep discussions. Maybe he will later, after he starts healing and reconnecting his bond with you -- you'll have to have your close friendship back first. So, try to focus on rebuilding very slowly and take the pressure off of him. He's been through a ton of humiliation with everyone at work knowing and being recorded and everything. It sounds like you still love him and are willing to do the work to rebuild. And it's going to be hard with him acting like he is. I think your best shot is at trying to get him to start feeling more relaxed around you, so he's able to take the focus off the pain he's caused you -- which is tough, when he keeps hurting you more. I don't know... needs to be thought about a lot. And it doesn't sound like he's in a place to be very helpful or give you much insight.

I do think that keeping things upbeat and trying to build a friendship might be the best tact. This is going to be a ton of baby steps, which must be so frustrating for you -- him too, since his anger is probably his frustration at the mess he created.

Ya know, I've told other people around here that focusing on the goal and the plan helps to make the roller-coaster valleys a little easier to bear. Thanks, both of you, for reminidng me of that! This week has been a heck of a valley.

LA, I think you're right ... the letters may be more for me. Is it at least getting better? With DJ's and honesty and "owning my own"?


I realized late last night that I need to re-focus on the plan and the goal, so reading your posts this morning was a nice re-enforcemenmt....

Here are the basics that I'm trying to focus on....
I do not want a D. And I am not ready for Plan B, or even convinced that it would apply in this case anyway since the A is over.
I still have much more that I need to work on and focus on myself. Including stating my feelings, being O&H, regardless of the outcome.
I still love him, still want to try.


Sooooooo ... back to the progress I was making before. Shaking off this backslide. I have learned some good lessons from it.

Thank you!


-AmI


ps ... I rode my bike to work this morning. It is not far, but it still felt good! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Rode your bike bike to work today...gonna swim at lunch and run home, carrying your bike, right?

Triatholon redeaux?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Self-care...the act of keeping your focus on you...what is within your control...would you consider what your payoff is in looking at H, his actions, feelings, lack of or demonstration of whatever is in him, instead of you?

I had a payoff...kept me focused externally on what looked like a clearly defined goal...changing my H...working hard to get from him what I wanted/needed...and I was used to focusing on the outside to get what I needed for my inside...engrained habit...which took me refocusing on me, my inside, for what I needed/wanted inside, to break that habit, and then slowly, carefully, with full conscious, look at my H...I found comfort in not looking within, that unknown which was me...and I found a feeling of protection and power in manipulating others...or spending my time attempting to, I should say...

Remember Harley's three levels in marriage? Intimacy, Conflict, Withdrawal? Which one are you in...and which one do you think your H is in? These are places, emotional states...they aren't permanent and they don't define us as people...we move between them...different reasons, times and perspectives...

Fluid...not stone.

How you thrive is up to you right now...self-caring acts; loving honesty statements to your Self, too...training your focus you, respecting your H chooses his, you choose yours...and then sharing your simple truth statements...drive-bys...

Asking your MC to not do something is huge...and important. I believe some of them wait for you to speak, to be brave enough, to do this...because it is a very important step of owning your life, your help...like being here and posting...you ask for what you want...do it for your MC. Put it out there tomorrow. Feel your fear, hold it like a quaking 2-year-old, and speak, anyway, 'k?

You're growing into power you've always had...only experiencing it now...seeing your choice (and yes, you are owning well, and true...when your focus stays on you); isn't it reasonable to want to run from it? So foreign and unknown...to be dissatisfied, angry, hurt, slipping to the side and feeling it all coming in from H and then what...focusing over there, huh?

Well, that's my perception because that was MY experience. Your mileage may be varying...let me know. You're not alone. Your goals are yours, they are valid...so are your feelings...find out where those feelings are coming from...catch yourself when you feel them, and see if you're looking out your window, or around your house.

LA

Rode your bike bike to work today...gonna swim at lunch and run home, carrying your bike, right?

Triatholon redeaux?

HA! Not quite that ambitious today. And work is not far from home at all. But it still felt good! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


would you consider what your payoff is in looking at H, his actions, feelings, lack of or demonstration of whatever is in him, instead of you?

Oh, my ...

... get to blame someone else for not getting what I want/need instead of having to focus on myself.
... I'm used to looking outside of me for what I need inside.
... I'm still learning that other's choices don't affect my worth, so it feels like rejection and failure (mine) when I don't get it from the outside
... I don't always know how to give these things to myself. I'm pretty new at this self care thing, and not always very good at it.
... I'm very good at, and used to, trying to manipulate others into providing the things I need inside ... it's a very deep-seeded habbit that is taking a lot of focus to break.
... He's the "protector/provider" type, and I got used to leaning on him way too much to protect and provide EVERYTHING, including the things I should have been protecting and providing for myself.

Wow, it's hard to realize some of that. I had not considered the payoffs thing before.


Remember Harley's three levels in marriage? Intimacy, Conflict, Withdrawal? Which one are you in...and which one do you think your H is in? These are places, emotional states...they aren't permanent and they don't define us as people...we move between them...different reasons, times and perspectives...

I think H is in Withdrawl. I think I am flipping back and forth between Conflict and Withdrawl.


How you thrive is up to you right now...self-caring acts; loving honesty statements to your Self, too...training your focus you, respecting your H chooses his, you choose yours...and then sharing your simple truth statements...drive-bys...

These are the things I lost focus of, am trying to get back to. These are things that I can affect, they are mine, I can do and don't have to (get to?) rely on H or anyone else for. These are things *I* can do for myself. That is so empowering.


Asking your MC to not do something is huge...and important. I believe some of them wait for you to speak, to be brave enough, to do this...because it is a very important step of owning your life, your help...like being here and posting...you ask for what you want...do it for your MC. Put it out there tomorrow. Feel your fear, hold it like a quaking 2-year-old, and speak, anyway, 'k?

I've had this conversation with the MC before, there have been a few sessions when H was not there. She agrees, says she understands, then we still end up in the same situation again. H is really THAT good at drawing you in, and getting side-tracked himself. He is very excited and passionate about his job, and loves to tell people about it. It's enthralling. But not at all productive at MC. I really don't have much fear of asking the MC to try to keep things on track this time. Maybe I can even do it if we start going on a tangent.


Well, that's my perception because that was MY experience. Your mileage may be varying...let me know. You're not alone.

I think you have it just right. It's nice to know I'm not special or weird or whatever. That other people have succeeded at this, so I can, too. (Especially with such a great coach!!)


Thanks, LA.
Stil have lots of baby steps and processing left to work on, but I'm feeling much more focused again now.


-AmI.

AmI-I think I just saw myself in your thread.It seems like a mirror image of what I've been doing. The focus, self-care... well, except for the MC thing...La's asked me before about the payoff before and I didn't understand...thanks to you...I know what to ask myself in the future!

AmI...You can say, "I think you're a Harpie today!" and I won't be miffed...I'm bringing up MC again...and yes, your post back to me was amazingly honest, gentle with yourself (YAY!!!) in the right way, being true and not self-bashing...you ARE doing self-care...I can see it...you are feeling it...seeping in...not awash in it yet...give yourself permission for a deluge...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MC

MC

You told your MC..."Hey, don't do that, please!" and she does it and you blame your H?

Whoa.

"I've had this conversation with the MC before, there have been a few sessions when H was not there. She agrees, says she understands, then we still end up in the same situation again."

While it is going on...after five minutes (tops) of chit chat...look directly at your MC and say, "I feel you're betraying me right now. You made a promise. You're breaking it."

Period.

"H is really THAT good at drawing you in, and getting side-tracked himself. He is very excited and passionate about his job, and loves to tell people about it. It's enthralling."

Your MC is a professional who has dealt with many H's like yours...or wives...your marriage is in her hands for 45 minutes...speak up when it is happening...

"I really don't have much fear of asking the MC to try to keep things on track this time. Maybe I can even do it if we start going on a tangent."

This will be you demonstrating high self-care...and no control. I think there is a lot to this charming/helpless issue and very much worth discovering in yourself...

You can do it (picture me as Rob Schneider in WaterBoy)!!!

I like how you don't have that fear...you have that voice. It's respectful...to you. Not disrespectful to anyone else, 'k? It's not an either/or situation.

Glad you and Rin found each other's threads, too...

LA

Just a quick pop-in ... I just had a really nice lunch with H. No kids, they were off playing. He came and got me (we're still down to one vehicle right now) and we just chatted. Nothing serious or important, work stories, extended family stuff, funny things about the kids. Just relaxed and lighthearted.

No hug or kiss or "I love you, too" good-bye (HA! Can I skyrocket those expectations or what????), but still very nice.

I've got a question about expectation on my thread. I didn't want to TJ here. I'm glad that you had a good lunch. H and I are always better if we stick to trivial stuff. LOL It's like that the only thing he's good at, and H thinks thing are JUST GREAT between us.LOL

Does your H claim to be "A Simple Man?" LOL

AmI,

Your H gave you attention, share his presence and enjoyed yours...he relaxed with you, shared space and random thoughts with you...

I'm so glad you catch your soaring expectations...because you see your power to change your emotions...take what was, the reality, and shoot it down...bringing you down...believing something...what?

I prize sharing funny things about our kids...it is my treasure...they are our children...know what I learned as an unwed mother? No other witness to their greatness...only me...and when I married, I cherished the witness...no witness, no sharing was held a caved in feeling, a consequence of my choices I could not fathom ahead of time...

Where your thoughts are, AmI, there is your treasure.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Chat is safe...safe makes LB deposits...I believe it is how we get to safe R talk...through chat...over time...staying safe.

LA

I am trying to get myself ready for MC... I am very nervous.

I've been practicing saying:

(To MC) "I feel you're betraying me right now. You made a promise. You're breaking it."

(To H):
"I miss you terribly. You were my best friend and now you're cold and distant and blow up at me, I feel like you don't care about me."

"I want us to be friends again."

"I can put the past behind me and forgive and go forward, if forward is better than what got us here. Can you?"


And, just in case .... (because with this new calm coldness this week, I am afraid that this might be coming from him).

"I'm sorry, I don't do D. I'm not ready to give up on us."


Any thoughts?
I have half an hour... I'm shaking. It seems crazy to have so much fear of talking to my own H..... Owning my fear and doing it anyway ... that's going to be a big step for me.....

Sorry, Ami. I was away from the computer until now. You should be done by now. I hope it all went ok. I think as long as you can just be yourself and focus on how your H was pre-A, when you had a warm, loving relationship, that you'll be fine. Outside of MC, I'd just try to enjoy him and have fun. It sounds like your lunch went well and that's what you need to start recovering.

Hang in there.

I read your post five minutes into MC for you...can you tell us how you feel now?

LA

Very quick update on MC ... then I really have to get some work done.


It went alright. Probably one of the more honest sessions than we've had in a long time.

No problems with staying on track.

Lots of other things that I'll update later, but the big thing that it finally came down to was that H is not sure if he can fall back in love with me. Right now, he thinks that he would not choose to still be here if it weren't for the kids. He is more sad about losing his best friend than his wife. He thinks that he could run over me too easily and that I don't have a backbone. He told someone that he thinks I am just grovelling to try to keep us together, and afraid to stand up to him. I used to take him dinner a lot when he was working -- I love doing that. But recently he won't let me because he thinks I'm doing it to be ingratiating.

So, I know I wasn't supposed to really get into this, but I talked to him about learning about owning my choices and my value apart from his actions. That I bring him dinner because I like to, not because it can "make" him do or feel anything. Not reading the letter that I had posted, but talking about that. He didn't really respond, but he did look surprised, like he wanted to process that for a while.


SOOOOOO, long and short of it is that I need to kick back up my Plan A, keep making the good changes, keep learning to own and state my feelings -- I think that will be a big one. Keep having fun and trying to find the reasons we fell in love in the first place. I think I can do that for a while. Take the time to really work on me and becoming who I want to be. Let him have the time to see that and make his choices about what he wants.

He did say that there aren't many men out there who get to have a wife like me (wow). And he hugged me when he dropped me back off at work. So those are two VERY big things that I'll be holding on to for the next little while.

I'll try to update more later, I've really got to get some work done this week (ha! 4 hours left in the day to cram a weeks worth of work into. Yikes!), and then DD is having a slumber party tonight, so I'll be playing with the girls and won't have much time to post. I'll get by when I can, though.

-AmI

Hey, First, I'm sorry you had to go through that anxiety /worry by yourself, but it's like you were expecting the worst and got the best!

babysteps, wow! Me too today! I spend most of the morning in recovery on SHMI's thread! I'm also trying not to spend as much time on here. Trying to handle things on my own.

A close friend on mine said to me one day right after D-day that H was probably worried that the changes that I made would only be temporary. Can you see that as his grovelling?
I think your going in the right direction with your plans!

Wow and ouch! The things they say in the "FOG!" Unbelieveable and good info!

Well, have an awesome weekend, and eat a few cookies for me or something sweet, please! I'd appreciate it! I've been craving sweet stuff for a while! LOL Funny thing is I can remember my mom always having candy around the house growing up. I was never a candy eater, always vegetable or something else, well, till recently! LOL

We are having the weirdest power-outage day at our office. Half of the electricity is out ... in our area, it's the lights but not the computers. Internet is working, but the network is down, so I can't get anything done.

Nice to have an excuse, huh?

Anyway, here's more detail on how our appt. went. Some of this is just detail to help me remember everything.

The MC asked how we'd been doing, H said "alright, I guess". I said, "It's been pretty rough for the last month or so, and especially in the last week."
I told her about the camping trip incident.
She asked H how he felt about it, and it wasn't as bad as I thought. Neither H nor DD (or anyone else) heard anything other than our muffled voices. They kept coming up there to get a shower. He said he was glad I had my sister to vent to.

She asked why we hadn't talked about it since then. Neither one of us had a decent answer. H said I should have brought it up, that I didn't try hard enough. I had asked him for some time on Monday night to talk, but then when Monday night got there, he was working hard to be engrossed in the TV, so I chickened out and didn't say anything. I asked why he didn't bring it up ... there was no real answer. We are both very, very good at conflict avoidance.

We both said that our communication skills suck. I told her about the honesty assignment thing, and when I tried to talk to him about it. He admitted that he wouldn't talk to me about it. He said he doesn't like to bring things up because he knows it will get loud and start a big fight. She asked for examples, and he couldn't give any. He even said that it never does get loud, he just doesn't want to have long drawn out conversations. I told him that that was part of my hang-up, too. That I liked the honesty assignment because a big part of it was for the person on the receiving end not to argue. To accept the information and leave it at that, even if you have to walk away because you're angry about it. I asked if it would make him more comfortable to say things if we could both agree not to argue about them when they are said. He said maybe, seemed to be a little more open to the idea.

So the MC said, well, let's try that right now. Let's get some statements out, and see how well the response goes. We both agreed, then it was dead silent. Minutes. I bet three full minutes of neither one of us wanting to go first.

Wow, how disfunctional can we be????

I can't remember who did finally go first. I think I said something about trying to get back to being friends. He said that all the advice that you get to marry your best friend is wrong, because when you lose it, you lose your best friend and your marriage.


Oh, our power judt came back, I really do have to get some work done, so I will add more later. This is kind of like journaling for me right now. Good to get it all written down.

On with the story ... long and detailed, mostly just to get all the details straight in my own head.


So, H had said that you shouldn't marry your best friend because when the marriage goes, you also lose your best friend, because ex's never stay friends. I asked if he thought we could work on getting that friendship back, that I wanted us to be best friends again, and that we could heal the past and move forward if we could get there.

He didn't really answer, and she said "I don't think that's really what he means." He agreed with her, but still dind't say anything. He started crying at that point and put his sunglasses on. She started kind of prodding him, coming from all the angles she thought he meant, and finally got out of him that he couldn't have the friendship without the love. And that he was afraid that wasn't possible, that he didn't think he could fall back in love with me. And that that fear was becoming more of a certainty than just a fear.

He said that we had been falling out of love pre-A, and that the A, and the events since, added weight to the stone and made it start plummeting faster.

I asked how do we get it to at least stop plummeting, get to a stand-still, at least, instead of going backwards? So we'd have somewhere to start from. I gave a really short description of the HNHN theory, and asked if there was some need that I wasn't meeting. He said no, that there arent' many men who are lucky enough to have a wife like me, that I was always in his corner. She asked so what made you start losing that love?

He didn't answer, so she asked me what kinds of problems we were having pre-A. I told her that after our son died, I was having a very hard time with it, I got very clingy and needy and was always angry, at everyone, for everything. That I was sure I wasn't pleasant to live with.

He said that was kind of it. Then he said that someone had asked him recently how things were going, and he said that he could run all over me if he wanted to, that he thought I would take it. That he hates letting me do anything for him anymore because he thinks I will do it out of fear of losing him. The example that he used was bringing him dinner.

That's when I told him what I'd been learning about owning my own choices, my own value, that I'd been learning that his choices don't afect my value or worth. That I'd learned I can't "make" someone do anything, and I wouldn't want him to stay with me because I "made" him, anyway. That I like to take him dinner, and it's not for his reaction, it just makes me feel good to do it -- make his day just a little bit easier or better. I used a couple of other examples, too, like telling him that I love him, whether or not her responds. The counselor kind of got into that whole concept with me a little bit, she said a couple of times that this was a BIG step, and very profound and not easy to learn. (THANKS, LA!!!!) She asked if he understood what I was saying, and he said not really. She said that was understandable, because it's not something that is hugely visible, because behaviors might stay the same, but you can't really see the motive behind them.

She told him that it meant I was taking a "hands-off, you make your own decisions" approach to him instead of the clinging that he was feeling. She said that I was dropping any "hooks" that I'd been trying to hold him with. He still didn't respond much to that, but seemed to be processing it.

A little later, the kids issue came up. He said he didn't know what kind of involvement I'd have with the kids. That the first time we talked about "splitting the sheets" (I have never heard that euphamism before all of this, I think it's kind of funny), that "my camp" had been telling me not to make it easy on him and not to help out with the kids, that he'd be using me as a free babysitter. (Just FYI, that came from everywhere -- even SH and Dr. H <I called his show once> both said the same thing, which surprised me).

He said that he didn't think I'd be involved enough with the kids if we went out separate ways. That he didn't think it would be fair to take their mom away from them. That his mom had said something to him about him taking their mom away from them when this all came up in the beginning. But that very often, daily, he thought he would not still be with me if it weren't for the kids. I said that I had had lots of moments like that, too, and asked "is that such a bad reason to at least try?"

The MC didn't like that. She said that was another hook, and that we needed to try to put aside the issue of the kids and see if we could find that love again between the two of us.

I disagreed. I said that I was wiling to try, and to learn how to fall in love with him again, and part of the reason I made that choice was because of the kids. That I didn't think there was anything wrong with that. We (she and I) never did get to an agreement on that. But we did talk more about my involvement with the kids. I said that I thought that HE would be the one who wasn't involved, given his work schedule. And that his schedule and lack of time with them -- especially during school -- would open a huge barn door for his ExW to come through to get the kids. He said she wouldn't do that, she's too disinterested. I said, maybe, but her mother would be driving, which he agreed would happen.

So the MC said that the kids weren't a hook, now, because I had said that I'd still want to be very involved in their lives. She said that the kids and the friendship we had weren't going to be our way back to being in love. And she left it at that!

So I said then what is the way back? She said well, it has to be just the two of us finding it, that we had to figure out where what we had before all of this went and find it again, but that we knew that the way to get there was not the kids and not the friendship.

Teling me what is NOT going to work is NOT helpful!

So I had read in one of my books about reminiscing together as a technique to try to re-build love. I asked if he thought it would help for us to kind of go back and try to remember all the reasons why we fell in love in the first place. He seemed pretty interested in trying that.

About that time, our time was up. He brought me back to work and gave me a hug -- a nice, few second hug -- and I told him that I do still love him. He just said "Do you?". I just smiled and nodded and headed in to my office.


Phew .... anyone still reading at this point? Lots of words, but it helps to get them out. This was all pretty much "just the facts, ma'am." I'm still processing some of my feelings, but overall, I'm feeling better. Even a little more hopeful.

I'm headed off to get my DD's sleepover under way. I amy try to check in later, if the girls get into a movie.
Hope everyone has a nice weekend.

-Ami.