Oh, wow, LA.
How do you always know all the right things?

Thank you for that reality-bringing. I was pretty tied up in knots about this. The kid issue in general gets me so upside down, I don't feel nearly as strong and clear and capable when it comes to them.

So thank you for helping me find some of that, see what's real.

-AmI.

Wise? Hey, it pays to be old.

LOL!

(It does. You're gonna love it someday.)

Tied up in knots...like when you were a kid...and here, I believe, your emotions are handing you more about your inner child than about the real ones.

Understandably. Know the difference and act anyway. You'll be shocked how much differently you will feel afterward.

I am lapping up all your sincere gratitude, admiration, acceptance and approval right now...and I need to remind you the only wisdom I really have is knowing to get out of the way of God...praying something I have learned, experienced, will help you...and asking him to give me the words, guide me in the way of his truth to express his love.

And yeah, my own love for you is in there. Like Prego.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You know...incredible means unbelievable...and I sense what I write confirms stuff you already know inside and didn't look at...so very believable, I think.

I'm not trying to know right things...but true ones. You help me a lot in this area.

Gosh, this is such an awww shucks post...

And I'm beaming.

LA

Ok, so I had planned to take this time to finish my exposure to some friends of H's from work.

But I am not doing it. I am here instead.

I am chickening out. I dialed one number and hung up before it could go through. And now I'm hiding from the phone. Feeling a little of my bravado from earlier in the day fading a bit. I still know it's the right thing, I even know what I want to say ... but actually getting my mouth open is somehow now feeling very scary.

Maybe I've done enough standing up and fighting for today? I think I need just a little tiny break ... a little focus on just me and the kids. I have one more person to talk to when I pick the kids up from church, and then I think I'm done for the day. The ones from work can wait until tomorrow.

Am I good at excuses or what???

-AmI.

Good, it was intended that way. I have learned so much from you, and really, really appreciate it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you.


-AmI. (who is still hiding from the phone for the rest of the night.)

Not hiding...choosing NOT to use the darn phone...an short emotional timeout...

Healthy, healthy stuff, AmI...sharing truth feels scary? How come?

LA

Scary, because there is still a part of me that fears the reaction. These are H's friends ... Family and "our" friends, I knew how they felt about me, him, us, our marriage. These are people who I know are good men, believe in commitment and honor and marriage, and who H likes and respects ... but they are not so close that I know how they feel about us, specifically. So I feel afraid of their reactions. I know, it's theirs, I can't control it .... but I still want to.

Also still some fear of his reaction about me exposing again ... particularly at work. But that ship sailed when those letters went in the mailbox.

It also feels exhausting ... like so much work. Repeating things I've said so many times in the last 24 hours ... asking for help but also being so careful about what I say, no bashing him, just truth and asking for help. Over and over and over .....

If I'm already tired of it, the next few days will be a marathon!

-AmI.

Does it matter how they feel, what they think? You believe in them...who they are and who they are to your H. Fear their reactions may be you fearing yourself...that you are damaging something...that you do not really believe you're sharing truth...

Hold your fear in your arms and share truth anyway.

You can't predict, control or take relief in outcomes which haven't arrived...know you are wanting security and your manipulative villager is rising up...waving you off because you split him in half this year...you told him he wasn't needed...and now, half of you kinda wants him back...giving you that false sense of control.

Would that be close?

Work? Sharing truth as work? Work comes in facing that fear and acting anyway...instead of getting easier, why is that feeling like grinding you down, using up energy?

Give yourself the relief and security you seek. You are a marathoner...is repeating the truth conflicting something inside you? Wouldn't it just be boring by now?

What's up in there, AmI...hit me with that O&H...detail that fear you say you have...for me?

And you could share how you busted WH...'cuz I think you're a great detective and others may benefit from your prowess.

LA

Please excuse my interruption,

LovingAnyway... would you mind to have a look at LWP36 please?

You have writen some of the most helpful things about control of anger and pain. I feel unable to give her more input and what I write to her in some part is a copy of what you have writen in some posts. Would you mind to share with her the original LA version.

Thank you

Oh, Larousse...(I read you on TKO thread)...I feel like my plate is full right now...I was just heading to bed...I saw two call-outs on LW's behalf...there are many here (Ears_Open, Myshae, Mineownself, LostHusband, Happy_to_be_here, ark^^, Bramblerose, and JustLearning) who are my mentors...

I will look up her thread. That I can do, 'k?

Bless your kind heart, even if you're a funny foreigner.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Thanks so much LA. You funny aborigen. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LOL .... actually, this one was surprisingly low-tech, and almost by accident. I mentioned to someone that he and I had been watching a terrible movie one night after he got home at 2:30 in the morning. That person knew someone who knew someone who knew someone ... very convolutedly ... who had recently mentioned that his crew had been having short nights recently and were going home early a lot to make up for some of the long nights they'd been having.

He hadn't been coming home early at all, he was always saying he had a late case or paperwork. So I started snooping ...

A while ago, he thought he wasn't getting paid right for his overtime. So he started writing his overtime hours in his planner whenever he worked them, and keeping all of his overtime slips in there.

He left it on the counter, and the work times were not adding up to when he was coming home. He was telling me he was working OT, but he wasn't. So then I confirmed that he had been leaving early -- around 10, on the nights thathe was coming home late -- like 2:30 am.

Then I heard from a few different people who had been seeing them around town. They were so bold they were going out to lunch together, right by his office. They were also seen together late at night/early mornings ... both on-duty and off.

Sooooo ..... it just all came together all at once. It was almost frustrating because I thought I had been so careful and knew for certain that he couldn't be seeing her again -- didn't have time, and I knew where he was all the time.

It's frustrating to realize that I didn't ... but it was also a freeing feeling, too. I knew that I wasn't responsible for his choices ... that this was his behavior, about him, and not about me. I didn't have that terrible "what's wrong with me" feeling that I did on the first two D-days. In fact, I didn't even consider it another D-day until just now when I wrote that.

And he never did deny it. I told him that I knew, and that was it. He didn't even try to get into how I knew. At least that part is good for me. I didn't have to get past a bunch of denials like some people around here do.


-AmI. (who just picked out the easy question to answer.)

"Marriage is for two people. Any third party breaks the partnership. Your father has chosen to put his relationship with OW (last name only) ahead of his marriage. I am choosing to fight for our marriage. I've asked family members to come and stay, to talk to him. I love you with all of my heart. I want us to stay a family, even if it that means going through really scary stuff together...because I love your father and want our marriage for life."

Do I tell them that he has to move out if he continues to choose OW? Explain him sleeping on the couch downstairs?

Or let him do that?

I need to stop responding to him. He keeps trying to draw me in and instead of not responding, I think I can argue with him.

I know better.
I KNOW better .... why do I keep doing this?


Most recent IM exchange:

HIM: sent you an e-mail in reference to DS's b-day

ME: Are you moving out today?
ME: Please send all contact through BIL from now on. I will do the same.

HIM: no, not today or any other day this month.

ME: I do not want to have contact with you.

HIM: thats silly as ******.

ME: Do not continue to contact me. I will do the same.

HIM: MY kids are being watched by you. I will contact you as often as I feel appropriate.

ME: I have always acted in the best interest of OUR kids.
ME: YOU are not doing the same.
ME: YOU are tearing our family apart, and their lives.
ME: DO NOT CONTINUE TO CONTACT ME DIRECTLY
ME: DO THE RIGHT THING, H.

HIM: this did not start out nasty. I told you I sent oyu an e-mail about his b-day.

ME: And I asked you not to contact me.

HIM: right thing, in your eyes or mine? Right thing will be done when I have enough money to pay either on a new place

ME: Right thing period. Continuing to live in the family home when you are committing adultery and working to destroy the family is NOT the right thing.
ME: I'm sure that you have plenty of places where you can stay.

HIM: I am looking for a place for three people and two dogs so obviously thats not as easy. I would prefer the kids to stay in their schools so that doesn't have to change.

ME: The kids don't have to go anywhere. They will be with me the majority of the time anyway based on your schedule.
ME: You can have the dogs when you find a more permanent place.
ME: I'm sure that your parents or your brother or your girlfriend will all let you come stay with them until then.

HIM: thanks for the dogs, I thought I was going to have to argue w/ you about them. I already have the kids so thats not going to be an argument

ME: You can't think that it's appropriate for you to continue living in our home while you are also committing adultery.
ME: Do the right thing, H.

HIM: I agree its not appropriate but right now I am three weeks until paycheck so I will live where I have made the mortgage

ME: And don't continue to contact me directly. You can route everything through BIL. I am not friends with adulterers.

HIM: I will not leave without my kids and that is for certain. I when I move my things I will alos move theirs

HIM: so this started out as a request for you to read an e-mail I sent you. I am asking about DS's birthday. If I have to get involved to the point you are not involved then so be it.

ME: I will not have friendly conversations with you and pretend that you aren't chosing to destroy our family.
ME: I have talked to DS about his birthday and will help make arrangements.
ME: It is certainly your choice if you want to exclude me from our children's lives. That would not be in theri best intersts.

HIM: it might be in their best interest if you are trying to keepme out and uninvolved like you have been. I am asking questions and you are purposely not answering them.

ME: I'm not going to argue with you. You have made your choices, and you are free to continue doing so. I will do whatever I can to protect myself and OUR kids from the destruction that you are bringing on our family.

ME: I have not done ANYTHING to keep you uninvovled. I have not stopped ANY comunication between them and you. You are the one who is not available to them. You have chosen your priorities.
ME: I will do whatever I can to keep their lives normal and safe and secure.
ME: I have never done anything that was not in their best interests.

HIM: I apologize for asking you anything about his b-day. I will deal with him rather than BIL and get it figured out there. I am certain he will want to go out to dinner on the 20th and you willbe expecetd to be there, as I will be and yes I will be there so maybe you should invite BIL in case we have to talk

ME: YOU are the one chosing to RIP them from their home and lives.

HIM: I made my choice as it relates to you and I. Now you are trying to make this about them and make me out to be the monster cause you and I are going different directions.

ME: This does affect them. How can you think it doesn't?
ME: This affects them and all of our family and friends and everyone else.
ME: Do you think that (His XW) "making her choice as it relates to you and her" DIDN'T affect the kids????
ME: How is what you are doing any different?
ME: You are freee to amke whatever choices you choose, but you need to realize the consequences.
ME: They go far beyond you and I.
ME: You are tearing these kids away from the stability and life that we worked very hard to build for them.

HIM: This IM has become ugly on both our parts and it is not productive. I will chat with DS and get his b-day figued out. I doubt he will tellme anything you have not already heard. I wouldlike to get his a bike for his b-day and if you want to go check them out thats fine or just tell me and I'll get it.

ME: You are breaking up a family. This is far beyond just you and I.

HIM: I won't see you after you get off work so just leave anote next to the couch if you need anything soon and if not then I'll be back on line tomorrow.

ME: Please leve your debit and credit cards.

HIM: DS's room looks bad so thats i going to be his chore for the day. I will drop him off at his lessons on my way towork.
HIM: The credit crad is the way I am going to pay for his bike until my (overtime) check comes in.
HIM: don't think he took out the trash

At that point, I just shut my messenger down.
Why do I feel the need to argue with him? I know better. I can't cause, control, cure ... although I guess I wish I could. Those darn manipulative and controlling villagers .... I thought I had gotten rid of them.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I'm feeling very upset and frustrated right now.

I'm angry with myself for getting drawn in to arguments with him. I'm frustrated because this is NOT the way to do Plan B, and it sure as heck is a GOOD way to erase all of the Plan A work that I HAVE been doing for so long. So I feel like I am sabotaging myself.

And I haven't heard anything yet about the letters. I was really expecting something by now, and my anxiety level (yes, fear of future events, which I am supposed to let go and not worry about) is very, very high .....

Ugh.

-AmI.

I wonder if Plan B is the right choice in this situation. If these were your biological kids, that would be different. But, this is a sensitive situation.

Try this....

Email him back and say that you're sorry for arguing with him, that you know it's not doing any good. I'd keep the message simple -- You are so, so hurt and you're also so afraid for the kids. You feel over-protective of the kids -- their mother has already hurt them so much. You don't want to see them go through that again and you are afraid for them and want to try to keep their lives as normal as possible, especially since they are about ready to enter adolescence, which is hard enough without all this added chaos.

I'd also ask him -- "Please think about this if you can. Think about the close marriage we once had, and how even though it wasn't easy, I did what it took to make a home and family for the kids. You know what kind of loss I've endured. And now, I see you not seeming to care if the kids have to go through the loss of the only real mother they've ever had and I have to lose my only children. Really, what do you expect me to do? What do you think I should do? What do you think it would do to the kids if I just walk away? Is that what you really want? Really, what advice would you offer me if you were a friend without any involvement in this mess? I've tried to put myself in your shoes to try to understand you. How about you do that for me."

I would pull up the pain and lay in front of him. And maybe end it with, "I hope that guilt and stubborness and embarrassment aren't more important than all the people in your life who've stood by you."

You know him... so try to see how to get through -- if not to save the marriage, at least to save the relationship with the children.

Two things matter right now. That you come through this intact and that the children are ok.

The purists will probably jump on me about breaking Plan B and making DJs. But... this is all I can see to do. I hope someone else weighs in soon.

Hang in there Ami. It's grossly unfair to you and the kids that he's pulling this.

OH, AmI! ((((((((((AmI)))))))))))

Yes, it could have been a simple conversation but you started it from the way I see it. I understand your frustration and you have a right to be that way. It's okay! You have realized your mistake and can only learn from it at this point. Be done with it and stop beating yourself up.

You refuted and refuted...you said you know...well apply what you know the next time, if there is a next time...

The way I see it you were nice and detached but you can't seem to detach from the kids...as you already know it's your weak spot...you need to go ahead and tell the kids, so that they can have their say so in all of this mess...

Sweetie, I understand that this is hard for you but you have come soooo far...no bars hold now...Stay strong AmI!

You can't just click your heels and get what you want when you want it...no matter how hard you try WH will not see it YOUR way...

Keep it mind you are doing the best you can with what you have right now...Do you remember my posts of H and I discussion? I know it's different but it's the same. Perhaps my experience those posts might be of some use to you!

You are a wonderfully strong, classy lady, "keep your hopper on" like LA says, use it! 180! 180! Do you have the list?

I also agree with Grownup about apologizing. Do you want to be right? I'm not sure about the other stuff.

Thanks, GrownUp.

I hadn't even thought of that as a possibility ... breaking Plan B intentionally instead of just getting drawn into the muck.

Your post made a LOT of sense ... and I really like the concept. In fact, I was sitting here crying while reading it because it was all so very true. I just about copied and pasted the whole thing right into an e-mail back to him right then.

There's one angle that worries me, though, about it. He has said before that I have no backbone, that he could walk all over me and I wouldn't stand up to him. Do you think that a response like this take away the "backbone" that I have now started to show?

The curent situation (only 2 days old now) is not working and isn't productive ... but I also don't want to pretend to be nice and friendly with him. I need him to feel the consequence of not having me at his beck and call, not being easy to talk to, not being his friend.

What do you think?

Thanks for your input.

-AmI.

I feel a bit worried about saying certain things to you, because you are so hurt and I don't want to upset you more. I know you lost a baby. I don't know what effect that had on him. But, I wouldn't protect him from your pain. I wouldn't worry how he perceives you. I'd just be myself and let him know that you feel like you're in an impossible situation trying desperately to save the kids from more pain.

As far as his stupid backbone comment, you've come a long way since you first started posting here. I don't think he particularly appreciated your new strong backbone, because he was obviously still either in the affair or still ready to re-enter it. I don't know if you can figure out why he's acting like this or even if you can figure it out, if there's anything you can do. But without begging, you can appeal to his decency. And I wouldn't worry one minute about making him feel bad and guilty. He needs to think about what his actions are doing to everyone. I don't think that your trying to point them out will help. So, I'd try to appeal to him on behalf of the kids and engage him that way.

Before, he wanted to try to reconcile and then he obviously got caught up in the affair again. You're not in Plan A. The pressure is off and you don't need to walk on eggshells or care about what he thinks. I'd be honest, but not beg and not even talk about reconciling. I'd talk about the kids and try to get him to do right by them and try to get him to work with you on that. But, I'd tell him that it's very difficult for you because of the pain he's caused you. I'd also be very blunt that it's hard for you to have him around at all, because all this time that you were breaking your a$$ trying to work on the marriage, he was treating you terribly. And now you know why. He was in the affair again. Saying how you feel, isn't trying to tell him what's he's done wrong. And it's having a backbone.

You're doing fine -- better than most anyone would do in this situation. Keep holding your head high and be proud of yourself.

Thanks, Rin.

You are absolutely right .... (as usual!!) I am having a really hard time detaching from the kids and accepting that I have no control over that. It kills me when he throws that in my face like he is, and I just want to argue and shake him and kick him instead of keeping my head intact. I need to be more prepared for that from him ... it shouldn't surprise me or take me off guard like it does.

I definitely need to talk to the kids and let them know what's going on. And let go of trying to control the kid situation! That's much easier said than done.


I don't have the 180 list, I think I have the general gist of it, though. I will have to go and look it up ....

Thanks, Rin. You are awesome. I appreciate you sticking with me for so long!

-AmI.