Then there you go.

Hold your head up high.

From what you are telling me I wish my FWW acted the way you did.

I am still working on radical honesty forget about amends. LOL.

No, honestly I think he really was happy, a sweet young thing caught his eye and he had an affair and is now making up crap to justify it.

My main validation is that EVERYONE has said that WH is acting like a completely different person and has lost his mind. His coworker who witnessed the budding affair said he has never seen anyone make a 180 like that. I truly think he was in love with me and happy. I don't think he wanted to leave, I think he just couldn't stand being wrong. he told me that after D-day, he said, "I can't live with you if I amd going to have to be wrong about this affair".

So is there a statute of limitations where a BS can revoke their forgiveness? How does a FWS ever know?

I wish Lemon were here to tell me I am full of crap. He calls me on the carpet when I am trying to alleviate my guilt.

Going to Girl Scouts now, thank you so much to everyone that has helped my mental hamster wheel thingy.

I would like to ask yearsofhurt, Send me on my way, ManInMotion and ForeverHers to reconsider this thread for Jean.

She is struggling, and I am thinking it might be more connected to what transpired during her separation as much as or more than, with her WH's current A.

During her separation, she moved out of the home...her H was free to date, and did, other women, and ended up with a year-long GF...before they reconciled. Jean does not view this as him having an A or As...

I am wondering about this "I'm a FWW" and H wasn't a WH then...and in the intervening year or so during their reconciliation, he wasn't really a FWH...

I am not judging...I am asking for reconsideration because Jean struggles with needing him to confirm his forgiveness...affirming her repentance and change...and this seems important information.

Any thoughts from anyone would be appreciated.

And would this be one huge threadjack?

LA

Bumping

I'll try to help. I read the thread. Not sure I 100% understand the situation.

J - why does it matter that your WH affirms repentance and change? That's something you have to figure out on your own. LA I'm surprised I haven't seen "separate and equal" from you on this. That's what it's about to me. Whether it's an A or a fight over the remote. All the same. We are each individuals. I'm reminded of that daily. Thank you LA for brining that lesson to me.

Jean you're looking for absolution from a fogged out WH? Is he your priest? God? No. Seems to me like there is a hint off you wanting to 'win'. Is there? This is not a zero sum game. There are uneven scores. Only thing that really matters is Jean vs. Jean.

Am I on track? If not OK. Strikes a cord for me because I judge my life (less and less every day) through the eyes of others. Breaking that dependance is liberating. If I'm way off then I apologize for any percieved DJ. My intent is to help not hurt.

I would re consider but from reading your thread Loving I am confused. I have to sign off but I will try again next time I come on to understand the situation.

Thank you, MDC...and yes, separate and equal do apply. I agree. I'm slippin'. In Jean's case, I see where her experience of those three important forgivenesses is really important.

I just flashed back to our MC asking my WH where forgiveness will come in...who are three needing his forgiveness...and my WH said OW first. I think God was even proud of me at that moment, hopper hard on my head, in not reacting visibly, because it looked like a human explosion in my mind.

MC said when we are adulterers, we need God's forgiveness, our mate's forgiveness and our own.

What I was wondering in my vague post about...was the power part...when Jean was in her own A, I think she did what I did in my head...give permission to her BH to be wayward. All this is before MB for Jean and me...and since we've been here, we've learned you cannot give permission to anyone to be wayward...only yourself.

Which brings me back to MDC's separate and equal...because we don't have that control or power. Jean can forgiven him for being wayward when also, during her separation...which is different.

I found healing in knowing truth after being a control freak...I gave permission to DH to punish, love, be happy--when I'd earned it. I know I did. I didn't know human limits...with what I know now...our freedom to choose and our responsibility for those choices is our truth as humans.

A's don't have scorecards...I'm not looking for a tally on what she did/he did...my goal here is to really break that permission/forgiveness enmeshment. For me and for Jean. There's an important lesson for me here, as well.

Usually is.

I was wondering if her tight grip on acknowledged repentance didn't really come from her wanting WH to own his previous infidelity...which would be impossible if what she really wants is for him to ask forgiveness for those times...I believe this would be the solace point...the relief part, if this was her truth.

YOH...I appreciate your post when you get the time.

Thank you, MDC. You helped.

LA

Yes, MDC, you are dead on target. On the keeping score idea, yes, my inner child is screaming:
"See, I can forgive when needed and be repentant and ask for forgiveness when needed. You are a pompous a$$ that seems incapable of admitting a wrong doing and is too judgemental to forgive"

So I need to tell my inner child the same thing that I would tell my daughters when they are playing the score keeping-who hit who first game.

As far as seeking absolution from a fogged out WH, again, you are dead on. No one buys that for a second, none of his friends believe that he was harboring this disgust for me all that time.

{{{Jean}}}

Just thinking about you.

Kim

Jean - thanks for letting me know I hit the target! Best to you...

OK so maybe it was a false recovery.

If he was dating during the two years of separation I would not consider that an A. If he continued a realtionship with OW after the fact then yes that is an A.

Now maybe he felt like he could have his cake and eat it too. HMM

People always try to justify their own behaviour by pointing the finger elsewhere.

I myself have had multiple chances to have an A before hers and after hers. Before her A I could have justified it and certainly after her A I could of. The main reason I could have justified it after the fact was her "get over it" attitude. I could have said that she told me I should "get over it and now she should too. Not only that but she had no reason except for personal weakness to have the A. I now had a reason. A year after her A I had a training class and I was in a group with a very attractive young lady. We were in groups to work on projects and one night I went to the hot tub after our homework was done. She "showed up" at the hot tub as well. She asked if I had ever fooled around since I was married and I said no. She said what happens here stays here. She wanted to go up to my room to have a drink. Now it was exactly one year after my wifes A. It was our Wedding anniversary week. I was furious that this used to be a time of joy in my life now it was a time of pain. I could have justified the he11 out of going up and making myself feel real darn good. I didn't do it because it was wrong. We were not in recovery, our M was in shambles, I was in a dark place in my life. None of this could have justified my actions because wrong is wrong!!!!

Even if I never forgive my wife and I decide on a D I will decide that before I decide to break the vows I made to god, my friends, my family, my children and most importantly to myself.

Thank you, HL...nice name change...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am narrow minded now on what is an A...separated is not divorced...no declaration of marriage over...dating would be adultery...my view. Heck, pining for someone while married is adultery...

To know that you, like Jean, do not consider him adulterous because separated, is important.

And I appreciated very much your "People always try to justify their own behaviour by pointing the finger elsewhere" and then showed how even your own mind was pulling at you a tiny bit, in that direction, one year after your wife's affair, and you did not follow that resentment into entitlement or retaliation. You held your respect for yourself and your wife. Her choices were hers...yours are yours.

Very inspiring.

And no, didn't happen in my marriage...I believe now that would be our warning signals and our guidance to make the same choice you did...and that feels fantastic--free and confident in our choices.

LA

HL,

Integrity: Doing the right thing even when no one is looking.

Very Cool!

Ok I understand your viewpoint on seperation. However in some states you are not allowed to get a D you are separated for a while. IE in my case a D does not become final for 6 months even if we both agree on everything.

If I decide on a D and am legally not divorced for 6 months I am just waiting for the fomality. And trust me if that day comes I am going to go out and get me some nookie before the D is final. LOL.

Kinda reminds me of the Ross and Rachel thing on Friends. Whe she said she wanted to separate or something like that and she got mad cause he hooked up. They couldn't agree what it meant either.

For me it was easy. I didn't believe adultry was good before during or after my wife had an A. Still don't.

Loving Anyway,

I had to giggle a little thinking about you calling what H did while we were seperated an affair - heck, he has a hard enough time calling current OW an affair. Because she didn't come to his hotel room until the day after he left to go "think". I guess after 12 hours, you are formally seperated, the marriage is over except the paperwork.

(I don't know what he calls the nights he was at OW's apt while he lied to me about working late-I'm sure there is some technicality that he uses as a loophole). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Hey now you are taking what I said out of context. LOL

There are always technicalities and loopholes for the WS and trying to close them can really do damage especially if the loop holes are around your neck. LOL

HL and Jean,

See, that was my mindset when wayward...and what many WS's believed when they had their A's...technicalities to justify their choices.

That's why I'm hardline that until the decree is entered into public record...you're not divorced.

Six months? Two years? If you've spent 20 years married, what's the hurry? The urge to repeat? I believe there is healing time, getting your part and a lot of work with self so that you do not recreate...like they have advised here...18 months...otherwise, you're doing it back...justifying that since you're separated, you're not really married anymore...very close to what waywards use as their justification.

And Jean? Doesn't matter what WH thinks...or H thinks (until he resurfaces)...what matters is what YOU believe...make your lines, believe them to be true for you...I'm asking you to understand that your H developed a year-long relationship while married to you...as you did with OM...yours was an A...you were married...why wasn't his an A?

Why was he free to date, in your mind...because you broke the vows first? That negates his breaking his vows? Then that would mean that when my WH lied and had an A, well, then he didn't, huh? Sorry...that has no ownership at all...no balance...retaliation and permissions of a wayward mind...and that's where I'm headed, asking you to see how to draw your lines. To have the courage to draw them...choose your beliefs because they truly are yours...and what you believe matters...being a FWW does not take that away.

You're worth it.

LA

LA do not try to reason with me I am very unreasonable.LOL

Like I said even after it is filed I have 6 months before I get the D. Not a technicallity we are divorced waiting for the rubber stamp. I am not saying I am separated with the idea of reconciliation. Trust me if I file I am done.

As far as the 18 months go there is no way my libido would allow me to make that decesion. I would not enter into a relationship. But I would want to fool around some. Heck I would be like a kid in a candy store.

LA, you are feeding into my dangerous thought patterns. If I get to call his relationships affairs, then that will even make me more self righteous and holier than thou.

He was with many women during our seperation. My sister points that out by reminding me that WH at least got some "strange", I got some "BTDT" (since FOM was my first love.

I guess its all a bunch of smut no matter what you call it.

Jean...I can't feed into your holier-than-thou-low-self-esteem stuff...

LOL

You can chew it any way you like.

What if...your fear of only owning what is yours...what if you did call his partners and OW back then what they were...would you really feel holier than thou?

I don't think so.

I think your perspective would adjust into something entirely different.

Your WH would make more sense...you would have a better understanding...and you would accept yourself more...and his revoked pardon more...because of his choices, not yours.

Knowing where you end and he begins is essential...even now.

How are you doing? How's MrCreepy in the recliner? Your posts are real and wonderful...why not do more?

Have you expanded your work to more days than Sunday?

What if we made a badge system for you...so you can do stuff and get badges along with your girls?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA