You mean there are actually guys that can last that long? My WH made me feel sick and dirty for asking for his 5min version more than once a month. I had to parade around in black thong, bra, & knee high boots just to get that. I can walk in a building and guys will hurt themselves to open the door for me. WH has totally let himself go. His neck is bigger than my thigh. WH has never given an explanation for why he gave up. However, he once said that he couldn't give me what I needed to be happy. My top EN was SF. So you see, it goes both ways. But I didn't marry him for SF and I'm not getting D for that reason either.

There are certain traits I am attracted to and things that I would like in a serious relationship. Money, SF, issues with children, etc. all need to be discussed. However, if you go around with a checklist when dating, you're going to miss out on finding someone you might not have expected.

You know,I am not a cat and don't pretend to be one.I have no claws to retract.If we are going to talk about DJ's how about that for one?

It's one thing to have a desire for a fit and attractive BF/GF/Spouse.I agree with that.I prefer one that is healthy,not overweight and is attractive to me,not just outwardly but inside too.I used to date a very attractive guy in my youth who was just terrible after we had been out for some time and the real him emerged.So being very handsome was not a good thing.He had an ego the size of Texas and was not kind after he started trying to control me.

But to me,there is a difference than looking for an attractive, kind SO than suggesting that you can tell by looking at someone who may or may not be able to handle a multiple hour love making session( more goes into that than just appearances,i.e. medical diseases and conditions) if they are capable of carrying a child,giving birth and raising those children.You cannot really tell that anymore than just by looking at a man tell if he is not an abuser,cheater,porn viewer or is a good provider. Spending time with that person and getting to know one another is helpful.But even then,no one can predict the future.How many of us could have forseen all the betrayals ahead? You cannot know for sure what other's will do at any given moment.That is the risk we all take when seeking out a relationship with another person.If I went by all the stereotypes about men,I would never date or marry again since I would expect them to just want to get sex from me and cheat.

And about the cars with stick shifts...I'll just leave that one alone as it's too ....I can't even speak about it.It's just so general and discriminatory to suggest women don't drive sticks because it's just too much bother or the work of the devil.ugh

Sounds like a priority problem to me. If you're putting so much energy into your house and kids that you've nothing left for your marriage, then you're doing something wrong.

It a common complaint, because it is the most common marital error women, and some men, make.

The same could be said about the man who puts so much of himself into his job that he doesn't have anything left for his marriage - he's doing it wrong.

Time to re-prioritize.

And when you put Wild SF down on the list, where do you think romance goes on the guys list? I can tell you that when it appears that our needs are far down on the list after the kids, the cat, and the doilies, there is not much incentive to want to help out. We begin to feel used, like all we are good for is a paycheck and someone to nag at when things aren't going well.

I'm not saying it's right, but someone has to break the cycle.

I'm not saying every guy is willing to be Mr Mom for a while. I know I am,I do. I have my YD ALL BY MYSELF and she hasn't died or even contracted a dangerous disease from being with her daddy.

She gets her teeth brushed, her hair combed, (she may have daddy hair since I've never really had to do the pony tail dealy for myself)

I can cook a nutrious mean that doesn't involve chicken nuggets, french fries or any food out of a can or a box.

So I don't buy it that men can't do these things.

I'll be honest and tell you why I didn't do them as much during the marriage. I got tired of being told I did them wrong.

I got up with YD during the night. Instead of letting me figure it out, or even showing me how to do it, or just watching and making helpful suggestions, XW just took her from me and said, here, let me do it.

I was nearly 31 when I married and growing up in a single parent home, I learned how to do laundry, change the oil in the car, wash dishes, operate a vacuum, etc. My apartment was always clean and neat, and I didn't have a maid or wear pink underwear because I mixed a red shirt with whites in hot water.

Once I got married, I was told by my ex-wife that I was doing it wrong. I wasn't folding the towels right, or this wasn't right or that.

So you know what? I stopped doing the things I could do, but never seemed to meet her standards.

I'm convinced that many ladies are overwealmed not because their men can't do these things, but that their men WON'T do them because of the criticism they get from their wives when they do these tasks.

I'm almost 41 now, and I can say that my sex drive is still pretty much the same as it was when I was 17. I think I have a lot more control now, but it doesn't mean I don't still want it alot.

I'm sorry you find yourself so tired. It sounds like a pretty depressing situation.

NO I am getting what I rightfully deserve as the betrayed spouse who remained faithful for 22 years. I contributed just as much to that income of the last 22 years by taking care of his children so that he COULD focus on building that career that earns the big bucks. Now HE has walked out while I tried to save the marriage and I shouldn't let him take care of me and the kids by paying alimony. What a joke that concept is. I will be returning to work but more so that I can be financially secure when the alimony ends.

The other issue in alimony is the fact that my STBX has the ability to make substancially more than I do over the next 25 years of our standard work time. Why should I be penalized because he had an affair and refused to give up the skank? Why should I lose my standard of living and what I helped build for retirement? Plain and simple-I shouldn't. Why should he? UM because he went out and had an affair AND refused to work on the marriage and try to recover. He broke the VOWS not me. Alimony is about much more than money to live on month to month..it is about planning for the future that has been ripped out from under you. BTW in my state if a spouse has had an affair-the other spouse does not have to pay alimony...period. So if I made more than him and I was the worker and he stayed at home-no $ because of the affair.

I think some of the posters here have the same issue as my STBX....those who stay at home are not as valuable as those who chose to work outside the home. So in their view money = worth and value as a person. Taking money= being less of a person. Sad view in my opinion.

This being said-the main reason I married my husband was that I saw he would be a good provider down the road. Am I sorry for that-no but I will never let it sway my decision again. I've learned money does not equal love or happiness. As long as there is enough to pay the bills and keep a roof over my head, I'm a happy camper. My next husband will have to meet other EN instead of that one. I've learned it didn't matter to me as much as I thought it did.

American Beauty.

I see you don't appreciate my humor. I thought it was obvious, but it seems I was mistaken.

To be clear, the remarks about the claws and the stickshift were humor.

I will not attempt to use humor when speaking with you again. I have learned that our styles are incompatible.

I know it's a common problem, and unfortunately many couples don't realize the extent of it until it's too late.

I think it's unfair to characterize the men or women as doing something wrong. You just went on and on about how your potential wife should work. Okay, so women have the kids AND keep their full-time jobs, which means they are exhausted at the end of the day. Kids have to be fed, bathed, read to, driven around -- it's not that women are putting "too much energy" into them; it's that kids take a lot of work. That's the reality.

And for men, their 30s and 40s are their make-or-break career years and they feel pressure to do well to save for retirement, avoid being laid off, etc. They're not misprioritizing; they're doing what they think they need to. This isn't your grandparents' generation where men worked for the same company for life. My STBX survived four rounds of layoffs at his firm because he worked his a$$ off, which probably hurt our marriage. Should he have been laid off instead? In hindsight, maybe. But nobody knows those things when you're in the middle of them.

It's easy to play armchair quarterback and say people have their priorities wrong. I think that people generally do the best they can to get through the day, and I think the 30s and 40s are the hardest times. People have trouble seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and are too quick to bail out.

EE: Ok - I'll address this from my personal experience...


I was a Walk Away Wife - W/no kids (prior marriage) I was "entitled" to spousal support by the court system. Did I take it???? NO WAY...I felt I had hurt my BS enough by ending our M (though he did not know he was a BS at the time) Heck, I continued to do his laundry, etc. after I moved out since my flippin guilty conscience controlled me

This time around - yes, I want SS. We've been M 12 years and have acquired alot financially in those 12 years. Sure, he was the biggest part of that gain - but, I was there too. I left my job to work with him in this business. I took care of all the house stuff, his personal appts. (except with MOW) and I worked. I wasn't sitting around eating bon-bons.

WH had 3+ years to get his crap together, to end his A's, go to IC, etc. etc. He choose to do nothing but continue his adulterious ways. Now after being sent a letter regarding separation from my attorney - he may want to "patch things up"..

I would never have D him, I would never have cheated on him. I loved this man, I loved him enough to endure 3+ years after D-day to try and make him understand that I loved him, I tried to make him see the lose we both would be taking financially and emotionally should we D. Did he hear me??? NO.....He basically, laughed in my face - thinking she'll never leave me - she has it too good. She has a great home, cars, vacations, money, clothes, etc.etc.
She'll put up w/my crap forever - she doesn't deserve a life that includes love - just give her the material stuff and she'll be happy. Well if that's all you gave during the M then you can hand it over in a D too.

Wonder how much of our maritial monies was spent on drinking, strip bars, hotels and MOW. Sure, he never denied me anything financially - I had it good, but so did he. I never denied him either. I had one rule - NO OW..He broke that rule many times.

Should I be afforded the same lifestyle - YES...I didn't break the maritial contract - he did. Call it punitive damages, same as any other court issued order. My life should change because he can't keep it in his pants??? Someday, this man will learn and maybe being his 4th wife - I'll be his best teacher.

Please dont' bash me here...Just want to address the walk away wife..and the walk away husband issue.

hoopsie,

I have to say I agree with you here. I do think men and women see the kids thing very differently.

For example, I believe a 5 year old can take her own plates to the dishwasher. My ex-wife thought it was easier for her to do it than to train YD to put dishes in the dishwasher or sink.

But I do agree that if both parents are working, that both should be involved in day to day parenting.

However, just doing stuff for the kids isn't parenting. Teaching them and expecting them to do age appropriate stuff such as with the dishes, or helping pick up the condements from the table and put them back in the fridge, or folding towels, or keeping their room clean is parenting.

Sure, it may take more time the first few times you put them to work, but in the long run, it pays off.

Not to mention, if the kids have to work at home, you'll have a lot fewer "Failure to Launch" scenarios, LOL.

and I thought I was jaded <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ok, I'll probably get blasted for this post, but just wanted to inject a little reality in that hot 20-something gal image ... I'm in my 20s and get enough attention from guys, and I know a few women who are considered "hot" 20-somethings.

So... hate to break the news, but no matter what they say or do, or how believable it is, no hot 20-something girl is with an older guy for anything but the $. Even if she has a weird father complex, he'd better have $. In cases I know of, those 25y.o. hotties are not faithful and supplement the R with a hot 20-something guy on the side. It's sad all around, but I have to wonder how Mr. MLC$ is missing the obvious. If he's ok being treated like that, then so be it. He earned the $, he can spend it however he wants.

I do not want a guy to be with me just because of my legs or my chest or my face. I'd like him to consider those things the icing, not the cake, so that when the icing ages, he's still with me for real, lasting reasons. That's just me, and I'm one of those people who still believes in M and sticking it out through thick & thin, because there is joy & real happiness in that. I wish I could find someone who felt the same way and was also a "buyer". If I did, 4 hour sessions would no be enough. lol !

(Don't get me wrong, I have other requirements too, and some of those are that he be financially responsible, intelligent, kind, reasonably healthy, etc. I'd also like some icing, as in willing to ride an ATV or scuba, then discuss politics over a nice dinner with friends, then switch gears again (yes, I can shift) and watch a comedy the next night. These are things that I can compromise on and we can have fun finding a hobby or sport we both enjoy. The character stuff and loving me for lasting reasons I shouldn't compromise on. And yes, I'm willing to forgo excessive naps and grungy sweats, and I can look like arm candy, when needed. But he should also be willing to share in childcare and housework if we're both working full time. The list goes on. It all seems reasonable to me, so I'm sure each of us think our own personal "list" is reasonable.)

And I absolutely, 100% believe in prenups with an A penalty for either party. If I were the WS, I would never ask my BS to pay me alimony, but the opposite should be upheld too.

neverthesame,

No blasting by me. (Are you shocked.)

Some twenty something ladies are nice to look at. But I don't think I could ever be serious about one at the age of 41. I'm sure someone out there will tell me I'm again, limiting my pool for selection.

Well, ok.

Right now, I'm not looking for someone who wants to start a family. I'm looking for someone whose kids are out the door, or nearly out the door.

Most 20-somethings, if they don't already have a very young child are looking to have one.

Unless there is another immacualte conception, I'm not going to be a daddy again, so I'm probably not her match. And it would be very selfish of me to conceal that fact to a potential mate, however tempting it might be,

"Come on honey, let's keep trying until you get pregnant. I took the whole week off so let's get started!" LOL

Not fair to her.

I pray you nothing but the best neverthesame. I appreciate your non-confontational comments.

[color:"purple"]Four hour sessions? I get tired just thinking about it. And I am a hot size 6/8 hourglass figure and have two cars - both of them manual transmissions.

I've never had a partner who wanted a four hour session. You are truly one of a kind EE. I get sore just thinking about it.

V. [/color]

Well I think you are thinking to small if you think lovemaking is only about one or two body parts and how they fit together. There is a lot more <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But that's another topic.

What were we talking about here, LOL?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />Yikes! Step out for the day & the topic turns to sex. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Preferable to the alimony conversation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Not just sex, but making love.

There is a difference!

You've made an interesting comment EE. Would you please explain your thoughts on this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Heh. I'm not EE, but I'll confess to a pet peeve: I hate it when people use SF interchangeably with sex. Sex is just sex. SF is sexual fulfillment. Sex with a partner who just wants it to be over is not SF.

Exactly, sex is just getting off to be blunt. Making love is so much more. It's taking the time to learn what pleases your partner, starting in the mind. Letting her know that you find her attractive mind, body and soul, not just the body.

Making love is all about bringing your partner pleasure. To me, just having sex is selfish, it's about me. Making love is a mutual act, focused on giving your partner what she wants.

When this is done, mutually, there is no better act between a couple, in my opinion.

Very nice! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Anyone else care to share? Men in particular. This is a selfish request. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I'm still bemused by the alimony talk (which if you recall was going on before the discussion went off into matters of sex). Still people insist on bringing issues of fairness into it. As if what "should" be, regardless of what anyone thinks that is, has anything to do with it. No matter how much it may feel that way, alimony is not about punishment. No one's being "penalized" for anything, whether they are forced to pay alimony or whether they have been denied alimony.

As someone already pointed out, spousal support in many if not most jurisdictions is nothing more nor less than a legal entitlement. And we live in a society in which it is considered absurd and foolish not to go after anything you can get. Just look at all the lawsuits, many of which are grotesque in the first place, but which are made even more so because of all the essentially uninvolved people/companies who tend to get named in these suits simply because they are perceived to have deep pockets. Right and wrong has nothing to do with it. (Even the government gets in on the game. Can you say "eminent domain"?)

The courts do not exist to serve justice. They exist primarily as a tool to be used by those with money and power - which in many cases are simply the lawyers themselves. (You've gotta love those class action cases, where the lawyers who are purportedly acting on your behalf become fabulously wealthy while you get...what?...maybe 50 cents?) Divorce law is brilliantly made for this. Heck, you've got a situation in which a contract of sorts has been established, but where the party who has breached the contract can go to the courts and demand compensation from the party which honored the contract. Sort of backwards, no? But it makes for great volatility, which keeps the lawyers more than adequately fed.

I'm paying spousal support, although not a single person whom I've told can understand why, except for those who've been through divorces themselves. After all, she left me, we had no children, and my ex-wife is a professional whom I helped put through graduate school. But she was only working part time while in graduate school, so of course I made a lot more than she did, and the difference in income is all that matters according to the formulas. And even beyond that, she gets more money per month for more years than she could have been expected to get if we had gone to court, because we ended up settling. Her lawyer had started out demanding so much that I would not have been left with enough net income to pay my mortgage (even if I didn't have a single other expense), but after two years he finally came down to where I thought I might have a decent chance of avoiding bankruptcy. I still believe I got off relatively easy, since I would have ended up paying a lot more in legal fees if we hadn't settled. I would have been worse off in the end, and this way my ex-wife gets the money instead of the lawyers.

The truth is, I don't really begrudge her any of the spousal support. From what I understand, she used part of that money to get an additional professional certification which should stand her in good stead, so at least it wasn't entirely wasted. To me the irony is that I promised her everything I had on our wedding day, but for some reason she felt the need to legally extort what I had freely offered.

The legal fees are what bother me. Between hers and mine, we managed to run up a combined tab of around $50,000 for what should have been a dirt-simple case. And although I did not agree to cover her legal expenses, my ex-wife ended up with most of my retirement account, and I can guess where that money ended up. My own legal fees went onto credit cards, and I will be many years paying them off. Basically, my ex-wife dug a hole for me that has placed serious limitations on what I will be able to do for the rest of my life, and I'm not too happy about that.

It's all about perspective, isn't it? It's kind of funny how each of us tend to latch onto some detail or other of how we got screwed, and try to find some sort of universal principle to justify our indignation.

But when you come right down to it, life isn't fair, you can't expect justice, and you have to choose whether to go on or to stay mired in the past.