Wow!! This topic has generated more strong feelings than any I've seen in recent memory on this site! Although I feel like the oddball in all this, I also believe that the details of our situations have little to do with the feelings generated. Most of those responding have been BS's. As a BS, I felt rejected, betrayed, devalued, inadequate, and unlovable and reacted defensively with anger and/or playing the martyr. I've spent 5 years working on letting go of the anger and learning to accept the truth that WXH's behavior had very little to do with me.

On Alimony: XH and I started a company together. I was supporting us while he did the initial legwork until the business was up and running and I could quit my previous job. I put up most of the start-up money including cashing out my retirement. Fast forward 9 years... H becomes WH running off with MOW 28 years younger than me (but NOT a hotty, in fact he used this fact to "prove" to me it was true love, yeah right... since from what I've heard, he gave her access to his bank account and she cleaned him out and took off). A complicating factor was the loss of his sobriety from drugs and alcohol (and he and MOW did have a love of partying in common). I tried for 1 1/2 years to recover our M, then went to NC with a restraining order to keep him away from me and our business because of his increasingly irrational and destructive behavior. He hasn't worked in the 5 years since he left. We've spent well over the $50,000 GDP complained about to finalize the divorce, but we still don't have a property settlement. I've been sending him biweekly checks as prepayment on what I owe him to buy him out of our business and property. On top of the remaining portion I still owe him, his lawyer is asking for both spousal support - because I make more money (he makes none) and he's "disabled" - and for me to pay his attorney's fees for the same reasons. I can't believe a judge will agree with her, but if he does, then I guess I'll pay it.

On sex: Again, it was H who always had the proverbial headache - I now realize he was probably never faithful throughout our M since his behavior with other woman and his heated denials were the same as with MOW. I went into early menopause because of chemotherapy treatment for breast cancer, I'm now post-menopausal, and have lost a good portion of my libido. I was never too tired during our marriage and I always worked at least full time and we more or less split the housework and childcare responsibilities. I virtually always had to initiate sex and it was pretty lackluster on his part most of the time (MOW weighs more than twice as much as I do, so that's not a factor here!).

My point is, I've experienced my share of hurt in all this just like everyone else here. Needless to say, I plan to stay very clear of alcohol and drug abusers. But as many who've been offended by others statements have said, I'm not really sure if a set of criteria about what not to accept will guarantee me a healthy, happy, faithful, forever relationship.

Gnome - I'm jumping in here while getting ready for work this morning - I wanted to let you know that I feel your pain.....I'm a female, worked my a** off trying to keep it all together while married for 12 years to an addict. He had a job (amazing that he was able to keep it) and I too worked. As it was, I do well in my profession, and I make more than he does. Well, divorce time rolled around, and lo and behold, I was in front of the judge hammering out what I was going to pay HIM in spousal support. Believe it or not, my ex-husband figured that since I made in the six figures and he didn't, (no kids by the way and lots of debt) he determined that he should still be able to maintain his "lifestyle" even though he pretty much drove me to the poor house with his addictions, stealing, etc. Well to make a long story short, I was ordered by the courts to assume ALL the marital debt (since we all knew he would never pay) AND I had to give him a nice little settlement, along with monthly payments for a year (till the poor soul could adjust his budget for my missing salary). In the end, I too assumed a debt load that I figure I will never pay off in this lifetime. ***Sigh***...
Hey, looking at the bright side of things, I have a sense of peace I haven't known in over a decade, and to me that's priceless!

Ladies,
I hate to break it to you, but if you ever want a truly satisfying relationship, you will HAVE TO put your husband ahead of your house and children. (I'm not saying neglect the children). Too many women get married, take all their focus off of the relationship and husband and then wonder what the h3ll happened when their husband finds another playmate! It's really pretty easy. Play with your husbands.

Guys,
I have to agree with you on what you are saying. I'm over 50 and have seen too many decent relationships bomb because of what you are talking about! Personally, I have a fantastic relationship/marriage and wouldn't trade it with anyone!! We do have 4 hour plus sex at least once a week and 1 hour at least everyday, sometimes twice. It's fun. Keeps me in shape and keeps us very, very close.

Regarding money. Sure, I wouldn't marry a man who isn't a high acheiver. Money does matter. He doesn't have to be a millionaire, but he does have to be educated and successful in his field. That's one of my ENs.

[color:"purple"]It's amazing that Justme took the time to answer this thread for her very first thread ever in order to confirm that sex every day (and four hour sessions especially) are common things when you are over 50.

I'm sure there are women on these boards who could chime in to say that they "played" with their husbands and they STILL cheated.

Just as there might be men who will admit that their stamina isn't quite what it used to be.

Just as there are women who might think four hours is a little long to be going at it.

Just as EE should know that most other things besides sexual touch would probably fit into the affection category. I can't think how you find the time to go lock yourself away for four hours of private time???

I'll take three hours of patting, rubbing, caressing, and talking with my SO followed by one hour of down and dirty thank you very much. 3/4 of that could be done in front of my kids and still get me where he needs me.

V.[/color]

TrulyHappytoBe, Wow, another woman supporting an XH. Sorry, but have to admit I'm happy to know I'm not alone. And, I totally agree with you about the sense of peace!

In the short time I've been posting here, it seems to me that you and I have a lot in common <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. No, my friend, you are not alone - but I'll tell you, it's been worth every penny! It's only money after all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Well,I hate to break it to you but what I see happening is that couples decide to have children,then when the reality of taking care of said children comes into play
and how difficult and time consuming it is,then some men start to feel and act full of self pity when it appears they come second.Well,they should be 2nd as are women and what we commonly do everyday,put ourselves second.There is a time to get refreshed and have time off,take care of ourselves and spend time with eachother but grown men should not need to be treated like babies.Men (and also women) who find other "playmates" do so because they CHOOSE to do so and are handling these issues selfishly and inappropriately.*Blaming the Mother/wife is not the answer here JM.That has been going on for a long time and it has to stop.

Housework can wait,yes but children come first in my book.It's not about choosing sides or being neglectful but children have many more "urgent" care needs than do we as adults.The onus of taking care of everyone always/mostly seems to fall on the woman.I have experienced this myself and so have many of my women friends.Take care of the home and children all day,work too in many cases,then have the husband come home and take care of him too and then be expected to hop into bed in a victorias secret nightgown and have wild passionate sex "every night".Everyone taking a little piece of you until there's nothing left and you forget that you are a human too.

There has to be balance for everyone involved.

Edited to add: I never denied my WH sex unless I was ill and we had many great times together.I did and did for everyone for years and it still didn't keep my WH from not appreciating all that he had and what he now gives up for what,I have no idea.Sometimes putting your spouse first makes them forget that you as adults should be in this *together,not one over the other.

I agree completely. That's WHY I believe that housework and regular work should always come second to the marriage.

Even kids can learn that there is time when they can wait for Mom and Dad to together time.

After my A, my W acknowledged that I had become just another chore in her list of things to get done. She was a control freak. Any attempt by me to lighten her load was seen as me criticizing the job she was doing. She was always tired. So me, being a silly man, thought "Gee, if I could just find a way to help her be less tired..."

That didn't fix anything.

I became something else she "managed".

I never treated her this way. I avoided several opportunities at work that would have degraded my family life.

There is NO VALID EXCUSE for NOT PUTTING YOUR SPOUSE FIRST.

Failing to do so puts your family far more at risk than does dirty dishes, dirty laundry, missed soccer practices or missed promotions.

Hi Sunny. Not sure I said what hubby and I do is normal or common. In fact we don't think we are common at all! Also, what works for us (hours of sex a week) won't work for others because they don't need that. My only point was that two people MUST focus on each other and their relationship every single day or it will surely deteriorate over time. I've seen first hand how spending lots of quality time with your hubby/SO produces great results and a very fulfilling relationship!

American B,
You are clearly having a hard time right now. I won't respond to your post because of that. Sending you hugs and wishes that you get through this hard time in your life and find someone who truly appreciates you.

oh, almost forgot. I came out of lurkdom to respond because this is a very good thread! Lots of ideas and emotions being brought forth. I've been reading this site and some others for several months while doing research for a step-parenting book I am writing. This site has provided me with some really good material as the folks on here are very open about their problems.

As far as "am I who I say I am", response Sunny posed? Good question. Being this is the internet, who really knows who people are??? I can only tell you that I am 54, happily married, raised 2 children and love to write.

The person who said they now suffer from low libido...you might want to find yourself a "youth spa/clinic" or doctor who specializes in Bio-Identical hormones. I swear by them! Because of them I still feel 20ish!! They seem to be helping my skin stay in great shape and keeping me from gaining the normal weight that most women gain through and after menopause.

To all...

I apologize for the tone of my posts in this thread. I going through a thing right now where I am extremely ANGRY about how I was used and neglected for YEARS. Despite my choice to have A, I had invested a lot in my marriage and I came to point where I realized I wasn't being respected as an adult. Attempts to discuss this led to further confirmation that I was just another "problem" to be managed. I tried so hard...only to be told I was "making up problems". When I was sooo hurt, she said I was being "childish".

So when I hear women talk about how their Hs were just spoiled brats for wanting more from their relationships, it's a HUGE trigger for me.

My W would've insisted she loved me...but she didn't respect or admire me and she set up a parent-child dynamic between us that killed our romantic relationship.

I eventually decided that she would never change and started looking for that respect and admiration elsewhere...this was my mistake.

In retrospect, I should've left then and saved us a lot of heartache and wasted years. I regret trying to recover my marriage...it was a waste of 5 years.

I love my kids and there were some good times, but I'm really starting to HATE my ex...and I'm glad to be rid of her even if I have to pay alimony.

I think this thread triggered a lot of people. It seems that almost all of us feel that we were somehow unfairly treated in the whole M, A, D situation, and we are seeking ways to prevent that unfairness (or at least mitigate it) in the future. A friend of mine once said that there is nothing fair about As and/or D, so stop expecting it to be fair.

IMO, there are some excellent points in here about roles, expectations, protection, rights & appreciation, and I think they could use more dialogue even if we get stirred up. Maybe we should start separate threads for some those and learn from each other's thoughts/opinions? ...

Low Orbit,
Are you seeing a therapist to help work thru your hurt feelings? You sound like a great guy. No doubt you'll work thru this and go on to build a wonderfully fulfilling relationship. About the regret of the 5 wasted years, why do you regret it? Had you found someone more compatible only to go back to your now defunct marriage? Or was it only the years that are bothering you?

I agree that the marriage comes first and I read the same thing in Dr. Harley's books. And yes, both parents are tired, especially when our kids are babies. What is weird to me is that my H. chose to have his A when the children were still young, but they were becoming independent. Family vacations could finally be a vacation, instead of taking all the work (diapers, bottles, etc) and moving it from one locale to another. We could see that we weren't going to be exhausted parents forever.

Oh and another female perspective on the sex thing. It used to drive me crazy when I would go to the bedroom at 9, ready and willing, while my H hung out watching TV until at least 11. Then he would come in wanting some fun. I mean, where was he 2 hours ago?? I explained this repeatedly but he said he wanted to watch the game or whatever. He didn't even want to take a break for SF and then return to regularly scheduled programming. If I ever find a guy who will put SF w/me over TV, he can have as many long sessions as he wants!

I have plenty of experience with the tired excuse too, since my SF usually didn't start until 6 hours before the alarm clock went off. You may start out tired, but you wake up pretty quick. Then you sleep better afterwards.

Thanks for all your input.

That's why there is video tape or now TiVo.

There is nothing they could put on TV so important that I'd turn down making love with a woman I loved.

NOTHING!

FWIW, I've had my TV on only twice this week. Both times to watch a DVD I rented.

This has been a great thread! The twists and turns! My ex and I make a similar amount of money, so really some of these issues simply never came up. We share custody, so no CS really - he pays me 1/2 of the health insurance coverage as I pay for it through work. Also, we still have a joint card for child expenses (clothes, dentist, softball, birthday parties) - that we split. We split daycare.

Similarly, I was turned down for SF all the time. Seems like almost anything was more important. Sheesh!

This thread really 'triggers' some emotions... very deeply...

Spouse first, always... you are right...

I was BS who had neglected her H. "Sexually and emotionally".

When we were dating, my sex drive was much (MUCH) higher than his... ended 'customizing' my needs, cutting them more than a half down, to be at the same 'level' with him...

I got pregnant, we bought a house, I earned more than him, we shared mortgage, the rest was from my earning...

Then, our son was born... little little cute baby, waiking up every 2-3 hours, to be breast-fed...
I was on maternity leave, my H worked... He couldn't stand waiking up, yelled at me... I moved to the living room, on an uncomfortable couch, not to wake him up... He was happy... yet sometimes he'd hear baby's cry and come down like a storm, "for God's sake, how I'm supposed to work all day if I don't get enough sleep!?!"
I was going back to our bedroom several times (my back hurt on that couch so badly)... was accused of being selfish and jelaous of him sleeping and me not beeing able too...

After four months I had to go back to work (my credit cards growing faster than my son...), not changing sleeping 'pattern'...

Till the first birthday of our son, my XH changed diapers twice, and played with him 5-10 min. (yes, 5-10 minutes) per day... and that was ALL of his contribution to "the second place in the marriage"...
... 'the first' one he simply skipped...

SF... My XH was always tired, "little baby in the house", and all that stuff with "waiking him up all the night"...

So, poor guy... was so giving and I was so bi**h and selfish, putting him not the second but the last place, after our son, and my work (and cooking&cleaning, but that part he didn't mind so much IF it was done while he's busy with his "more important things to do in life"...)

...no wonder, he really had to find some comfort with ow...

the other...

4 hours sex per day?

I sleep 5-6 hours per day (not to waste the time on it, not that I don't need...) and yet I have no 4 hours in row for myself...

Are you guys retired or what? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Oh my Belonging!! No, no, you read it wrong dear, I said 4 hours once a week. We would never have time for that each day!! LOL The weekend is when we fit it in. We lock ourselves in our bedroom suite with music for dancing, Brie, chocolate strawberries and such, light floor candles and little candles everywhere and just enjoy each other...

I take time to dress provacatively (it puts me in the mood instantly!).

Low Orbit said:

This could've been said by my XH. My side of the story, for what it's worth? HE set up the parent-child dynamic between us. Unfortunately I took the bait, but I never wanted to be his parent. I didn't tell him how much I admired him, but of course MOW did! I think she especially admired his money as she let him (me really) support her for 5 years, then cleaned out his checking account and left - I guess she got what she wanted, which wasn't a man older than her father!

I did everything I could think of to entice him into SF, but he stayed up watching TV after I went to bed and then fell asleep on the couch...

I never gave up hoping he'd change, but I guess he decided I would never change. Ironically, I was feeling especially hopeful about our relationship and had even managed to seduce him in the hot tub, the day before he began a barrage of verbal abuse and accusations. He wasn't interested in discussing it, just attacking. I set up MC appointments, but he accused the MC of being on my side against him and quit going.

4 months later, he suddenly moved into a motel room with the MOW. I guess by then he felt he'd done all he could!