DITTO what LetSTry said! I think a big turning point at which WH quit was when MC told him he instigated and actually liked being the "child" because that way he didn't have to deal with any responsibilities. I think he realized that he needed to make changes he wasn't willing to make in order for our M to work. OW is a matronly mother figure. The fact is that we both made mistakes, but he is the one that chose to quit.

Thanks fbwidow, that about says it all!

Even though your H could've said it, our situations were very different:



I did NOT do this and refused to be part to it...that's what drove us into conflict and me into withdrawal.

I WANTED to be an active partner, but my control freak ex WOULDN'T LET ME. I could never do anything to her satisfaction, so she had to do it herself.

I couldn't cook right, clean right, manage finances right, dress right, talk right, interact with other people right. She always felt like she had to correct and mother me and seemed completely at a loss when I told her to leave me alone. After all...she was just "helping".

The last straw...the last SF session we had before my affair...she talked in "baby talk" asking me if I wanted some - like you might to toddler who wanted candy. That enraged me and we didn't have SF for a LONG, LONG time after that. She seemed genuinely confused EVEN WHEN I TOLD HER WHY.

I was a sovereign adult...supposed to be her partner. I was not going to be treated like third child, dammit!



Why didn't you?

My OW treated me like another grown-up human being. She actually listened to me when I spoke without criticizing my speech. She told me SPECIFIC things that she loved about me. I felt RESPECTED, ADMIRED, AND LOVED.

Yes, my ex-OW did all the things that I literally BEGGED my w to do.

There we're no secrets. She knew damn well how I felt. I articulated it well and often. It just wasn't what she wanted to hear.

I outright told her that I was lonely and I was worried about our marriage. Her response? "What do you expect me to do about it? YOU have problems you need to work out."

I'm not defending my decision to have an affair. But it STILL pisses me off knowing the ends I went to to try and communicate this problem to my wife and she refused to take me seriously.

Tell me, what else I could've done? WHAT ELSE?

I think the only other option might've been the old "F-U, I'm outta here", but my kids still needed me then.

Things were SO bent by that point that the affair seemed like a reasonable solution to keeping my family AND my sanity intact. I believe it actually did for a couple of months.

That's why I'm getting divorced now...SHE quit - not me.

Having an affair, in my case wasn't quitting...I never EVER intended to leave or divorce for the OW. These days I'm thinking that maybe I should have.

No, I'm not...I'm living abroad in a place where those services aren't quite so accessible.

Why do I regret the last five years? Because, knowing what I know now, I recognize that we NEVER HAD A CHANCE. I bought into some silly idea that we could rebuild a good marriage. What I didn't see is we never had a oufndation for a good marriage...it didn't matter what we did.

Unlike the Harley's...I no longer believe that one can "fall in love" where there is no real attraction (chemistry) to begin with.

We can do a real good job of fooling ourselves into believing we are in love. I think I did that...but it never felt right.

I'm starting to think that an affair is probably a death knell for a marriage. MB techniques are just fancy life support machines.

I think I would've rather died.



Quite possibly

Low Orbit, Sorry, I used your quote to make a point about my M, not as a response to you personally. I realize your situation was very different from mine.

What else could you have done? Hey, hindsight's 20:20. Don't we all wish we could've known then what we know now to avoid all this pain?

This is interesting. My WH said he loves the OW "because of the way she makes him feel about himself." I snooped text messages where he would say, "Oooh, tell me three things you love about me" and she would say, "Oooh, you're intelligent, passionate, and blah, blah, blah."

To me, loving someone because of the way they make you feel about yourself isn't love, it's narcissicm. What happens when the OW stops complimenting you? When she starts kvetching about you leaving your socks around? Do you stop loving her?

I don't get this. I don't need or want constant ego-stroking from someone else. Occasional compliments are nice, but I'm not sure it's healthy to feel unhappy unless someone is voicing their admiration for you. Is your self-esteem that low? Is the male ego that fragile?

This reminds me of that old New Yorker cartoon of the guy staring morosely into his beer and saying "my wife understands me." After 16 years together, I knew WH's flaws and his strengths and he knew mine. I didn't go on and on complimenting him, and he didn't go on and on complimenting me. We just lived our lives. I guess the difference is that he *wanted* gushy admiration and I didn't. Or, at least, he decided he wanted it after OW started showering him with it.

I wonder what will happen after 16 years with the OW?

LO

You are "outta here" anyway, and your kids still need you, and will need you...

I can bet I know what could have worked...
If you just - left her. She didn't get it, didn't seem to her how serious you were, nothing there to shake her (well, before affair)... just words...
If you left her with no affair. With no lies. With no betrayals.
Just with truth, about how miserab;e/alone/sad/unhappy you felt... i.e. like a no coward, escaping...

She would respect you for that, that would show her that you really need what you said you did, she would feel guilty, and I believe she would have fought for having you back.
Your values will be 'refreshed'...
And no values to fight for in... well, you already know the rest...

In this case I feel better by reading it wrong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think we all probably both gave and got some gushy admiration in the falling-in-love stage of our M's. A's start out the same way, except they also include dishonesty and deception which heighten the emotions. While the M may be familiar and comfortable, it also has all the responsibilities of kids, bills, mortgage, chores, etc., and we probably all made the mistake of giving couple-time low priority, which leads to disappointment. The A on the other hand, is with someone who only sees WS at his/her best and offers a new dose of romance, fantasy, the excitement/fear/guilt of clandestine meetings, and no responsibilities.

hoopsie, I don't think it will take 16 years with the OW before reality sets in once again... and this time, it will also include a lot more baggage, including things like child support, custody arrangements, property division, step-children, alimony... and a partner who is willing to cheat.

Exactly
(Like reading my thoughts...)

LOrbit,

I want to learn from this board, so be patient with me as I found your recent posts interesting. I am NOT arguing you, just trying to learn, ok? thanks

You said: "The last straw...the last SF session we had before my affair...she talked in "baby talk" asking me if I wanted some - like you might to toddler who wanted candy. That enraged me and we didn't have SF for a LONG, LONG time after that. She seemed genuinely confused EVEN WHEN I TOLD HER WHY."

Just a thought, that your reaction was not just about this one incident, but about the resentment & annoyance that had built up with her controlling and "parenting" you. So, to you this was symbolic and a last straw. Maybe to her, she just saw this as a single incident and didn't have all the built up resentment to get your extreme reaction, hence her confusion.

What I'm learning: Built up resentment is a powerful thing that erodes the M. Like a can of gasoline that can be set off with a spark. Also, that people in R need to be heard & understood & need to know that their needs/concerns/etc are addressed and not ignored.

You said: "But it STILL pisses me off knowing the ends I went to to try and communicate this problem to my wife and she refused to take me seriously. Tell me, what else I could've done? WHAT ELSE?"

Thoughts/learning: I agree that you made things clear to your W, but it's possible that she just didn't really get it, or that if she did get it, she didn't know how to stop her controlling behavior. I think that the MB stuff can work, and if nothing else, it can work in your next R. What I would have advised if you were my friend is to try POJA and implementing MB with your W, and if that didn't work, then a type of Plan B with a letter drawing a line in the sand. (I know that if I'm ever in a bad M again despite my use of MB I will go to Plan B a lot faster.) Then, Plan B, and if that didn't work, then Plan D. All of this before even thinking of another person. This is how I would want my H to approach things if I was doing something that destructive to him & our M, whether it's mothering or gambling or whatever the issue.

ok, done rambling

Well, who knows. My H's affair was with his old high-school girlfriend who dumped him and broke his heart lo those many years ago. He never really got over her and carried a torch for her our entire marriage.

I found some research about rekindled "lost love" relationships that said they were very successful, unlike ordinary affairs, because their love predated the marriage. He probably had never fully committed to me in his heart when we got married, which I wish he would have clued me in on. Especially before we had three children under the age of 5.

((((hoopsie)))) Some work and some don't. The XH of one of my co-workers attended his HS reunion and left the next day (!) with his old HS flame. They're married now, but not all that happy... she's also remarried now and probably happier than he is, though they've both suffered financially. The real-life relationship doesn't always live up to the fantasy of the HS romance when moms and dads were still paying the bills, etc.

The saddest part of all this is when it doesn't work out, or it's no big improvement on the XS, it's usually too late, too much damage has been done to everyone, especially the kids.

hoopsie...we're ALL with someone becasue of the way they make us feel...

What's the point otherwise?

It also our responsibility to make sure our significant others know how we feel about them...it's out responsibility to build them up.



First of all...I'm not with the OW
Second, when she starts kvetching, I'll extend her every grace to stop it...if she refuses to listen, as my wife did, yes, I'll end that relationship too.
I won't tolerate a sorry [censored] relationship ever again.

I will work at it and I will communicate my butt off. No laziness ever again.

You miss the point entirely. I still love my wife...but I hate her too. I didn't stop loving her and haven't stopped loving her.



Of course you do. Every human being does. Just some of us admit that we need it...like it. That's why we are social beings. Otherwise you could live under a rock tha rest of life and be just as happy.

Look at the reverse. Would you stay married to someone who told you daily that you were fat nasty pig. If you don't need ego stroking, then this wouldn't bother you either. But you know it would.

It is the responsibility of spouse to stroke each others ego...to build each other up...to back each other up.



I couldn't live like this. I need to know that my spouse admires and desires me. I need to hear it. I'm fully prepared to reciprocate.



I don't know. I'm not with her. But I've seen plenty of couple who are still effusive about each other 40 and 50 years in...that's what I want...PASSION.

I won't settle for less ever again.

You know, maybe you did. But this never happened in my marriage. That's the HUGE mistake I made. I never felt passionately for my wife AT ANY TIME. I wanted too so badly...read every book, tried every mind trick. I told her how great and hot she was all time. But if it ain't there, it ain't there.

So even if you did this early on, why have you stopped?

I married because I was young, stupid and it seemed about time. Our families pushed us. We stayed married because we were distracted from each other by kids and career.

Guess what happened when the kids grew up and the career planed out?

Yeah, I am. But not until I put in five years being a great dad.

My kids are grown...adults. They have to deal with this.

They needed me more then. I could not have left them.

The affair was a mistake. I suppose I could have stuck out another 5 years.

Do you know what my oldest D told me when she found out about the A? - "Good for you dad! I'm glad to see you happy." She wanted me to go with OW.

Now that's sad.

Low Orbit, In answer to your question... because he started drinking and using drugs again and left me for the MOW... and BTW, XH was the one who talked baby talk during SF and it bugged the heck out of me, too.

LO said:
I don't think anyone makes us feel any way. We aren't responsible for how others feel and they aren't responsible for how we feel. This is one of the most important lessons I've learned through all of this.


Have you read Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders because this sure sounds like a Renter's mentality to me... And, what was she kvetching about? Maybe if you'd listened carefully, you could have discerned her primary EN, just as your posts make yours so clear.

I hope we've all learned this lesson!

Sadly, this is the heartbreaking place most of us, whether BS or WS are/were in.

LO, Of course everyone likes ego stroking, but "constant" ego stroking? And do we really "need" it? THIS sounds like LO's primary EN is ADMIRATION, which is not true for everyone!

This isn't the opposite of constant ego stroking, this is ABUSE!

Again, you are making it clear that your #1 EN is Admiration.

Again, you're stating your #1 EN. But be aware that reciprocating might mean with CONVERSATION or AFFECTION or FAMILY INVOLVEMENT, etc. Everyone's top EN isn't admiration, as yours, like my XH's, certainly is. My XH never told me this - I'm sure he never realized it himself - until I'd found this site and shared the information with him, which was AFTER he'd moved in with MOW. He met my primary EN of conversation very well, but missed on others (like SF). I gave him back what I wanted, which was conversation - apparently a common mistake to assume others want what we want.

Too bad neither of us had this information before he decided an A was the answer to his problems because maybe he'd have gotten clean and sober instead of destroying his life and our M.

OK, LO, that's what we all want. But do you think it's about finding Ms. Right or about following MB principles (or something like them)?

I agree with this and it seems lost on so many newcomers.

It's one thing if being with another person
( spouse,GF/BF,etc) makes you feel happy or sad or mad,etc but it's not up to them to keep you afloat in life.It's entirely up to oneself IMO.I have learned that this is the best way to weather any storm since you know you can always rely and fallback on your own independence and security.I don't want to *depend on anyone else for my happiness.If I have fun and feel better with them then that's like icing on the cake.But it's not my core being.I don't need validation from anyone else.

If you seek out other's to make you feel good,as OP are so adept at doing for their own selfish purposes,then you will be in that relationship for the wrong reasons.For what they can supply you with,and when that waxes and wanes or ends,as it does for ALL relationships over time,then you are left disillusioned and looking outward again.

Acknowledgement and praise for jobs well done and complimenting one another on occasion/when you feel good about saying so,etc is just fine in my book.But I don't want to be responsible for a man's security.I want him to already be secure in himself,like I am and I don't want a man who needs constant validation.I used to tell my STBX what a great Dad he was.How proud I was of the work he was doing,how handsome he was,etc.Sure it lessened a bit over the years but not entirely and I did tell him that I loved him each and every day,many times.Apparently,that was still not enough.He secretly withdrew and then here I am .I had no idea what was going on in his mind until it was fatally too late for our marriage.

I disagree, and this has been a hard lesson for me to learn. For example, my self-esteem is pretty much shot to sh&t now as you might imagine. Being cheated on and left does that to a woman. It would be very tempting to get into a relationship now with a man who would make me feel attractive, funny, desirable.

But that would be a rebound relationship. I would be getting into it not because I loved the MAN himself but because of how he made me feel about myself. It wouldn't work, and as tempting as it is, it would be a bad idea. And I think many relationship experts agree with me -- you have to be comfortable and happy with yourself before you can have a good relationship with someone else. It has occured to me that I was probably my H's rebound relationship after his HS girlfriend dumped him and look where we are now. He didn't really love ME, he loved that I made him feel better.



If your SO kvetches about leaving your socks around, will you tell her to stop it, or will you make an effort to stop leaving your socks around? I assume you are not suggesting that your approach to any conflict or complaint by your girlfriend will be "stop bitching or I'm outta here."



Constant ego-stroking is different than insults. And backing each other up is different than building each other up. I hope I can be to a point where I don't need to be "built up."



I don't know. That just seems high-maintenance. On a day-to-day basis, there just isn't that much to compliment. "Way to go on taking out the trash, honey!" "Way to select a great entree, honey! You're sooo smart!" To me, love notes and flowers and compliments are just words. Flowers fade. Love notes crumble into dust.

If I were your hypothetical wife, I may not send you love notes and compliment you on the way you balance your checkbook, but I would never betray you and I would nurse you through illness and support you through any hardship, etc. You tell me which one indicates a deeper love.