LA, so where's that story?

HTBH,

Thank you for the clarification...now I get it. I believe I have a lot of beliefs I act in conflict with...learning here has helped me to align really big ones...the obvious...which has helped tremendously...so I'll be working my way through them, I guess...

I think I'm seemingly at peace with a lot of internal conflict because it is the routine, the familiar...and the more I cut out the big stuff, the less familiar it will be with me...so less false-peace covering up the signals...

EO! I was guessing the playdates were just that...and I'm thrilled H is going to Al-Anon as well...and I trust he'll see, over time, that what he wants different for DD is about him, not her...and POJA can really begin. After you decide to NOT do that which you will resent...POJA...do nothing you are not enthusiastic about...hmmm...

Story time...this past Sunday DH and I had a home maintenance project...we'd not done it before, so I felt fear, and we haven't been doing stuff like this together, so there was fear of old stuff popping up...and it did.

We had to rescreen our windows. I was really tired, not enough sleep Sunday morning, and asked DH if it was okay with him to go get the supplies from Home Depot without me...and to let me know when he's back so I could come out and help. I was on MB (surprise, huh?) and then laid down for a nap while he was gone. Thought I heard the garage door, but no DH...about ten minutes later, DH comes in and heads for the basement...and I call out, "Are you ready for me?"

And he says not to worry, he's doing it.

Well, that broke our agreement, didn't it?

I know I feel guilt and shame when I do not do what I promise, face my fear and act anyway...so I immediately directed that towards DH in an instant. I went out to the garage and said that I thought we could move a table out of the guest room and into the garage to do the rescreening on. He already had stuff set up on the garage floor.

I think we've all experienced this a lot...what we want isn't being heard, validated or considered...my stuff. So I knelt down, knowing I was resenting, angry and said "So, you want to cut me out of this, do you?"

Oh, my.

He glanced up at me, while moving the screen around ontop of our screen door frame. He said nothing and went back to pushing the gasket in with the roller. "You think you're being kind and considerate? Well you're not. I stated I wanted to do this with you and I know screens take two people."

I said it in a better tone after some deep breaths. God was right there, my dear friends, because at that moment, after running the gasket from the long side to the short top, DH looked down and saw he had trimmed the screen too short for the short bottom.

"Crap."

I didn't say anything...my knees already hurting from how cold the concrete was...He said, "I was trying to get the most out of the roll of screen."

I nodded.

"Let's try it again."

This time I helped by holding and trimming the screen while DH rolled it...saw him manuevering his knees and grimacing, also...we got the door screen finished and I told him how nice it looked. I picked up a window screen and began to tear out the gasket and throw away the old screen. And we kneeled down again, together...and mutually groaned.

Now, my remnant feelings were resentment, anger...with shame and guilt having left for being out there with him, my choice...I was just having them, not acting from them or on them...and they jumped up when I knelt down.

After that screen was finished...I went upstairs and asked YS to help me move the table down...and he did...then DH came in and helped me move it out to the garage. I used that lifting (heavy oak slab) for release the power of resentment...and a bit of the anger (from feeling discounted)...and then I finished ripping out the other frames while DH went for more screen...and I took a little MB break. I hate shopping...I truly do...and I do it with DH as his companion, for the holding hands, being there to look at what he wants and make it a bonding outing. Since my anger wasn't gone...still signalling me something I couldn't identify, I didn't POJA going or not going for buying more screen.

When he got back, we whipped out four more screens in one-quarter of the time it took for the first one. No more anger. He said, "I love doing this on the table instead of the floor." And we traded admiration for each other's work and showed appreciation.

Right after we finished the last one, I reached up and hugged DH and said, "I love you" and kissed his cheek. I did this as my act of love, not feeling loving...this was my reconnection after my own disconnection...and within a nanosecond of doing this, DH reached around me, hugging me back with a deep sigh and a smile...and I felt it! I did! Loving feelings flooded through me...just like that...anger and the rest no longer there...

There was enough time lapse for my feelings to simmer down...and they did...until I acted though, on my belief of love and my desire to reconnect...the good stuff didn't come back. That's when I knew that my old pattern was to feel relief when conflict ended...and to hold the emptiness, that lack of feelings I didn't like, closer than the feelings I love to have...because it was better than the previous alternatives...

This time, I consciously went further...on faith...in my own belief...and felt my feelings change and shift...not from force, but action.

Wow.

So we put the screens up, DH took YS to work and came home to watch the football game...which I lasted with him through first quarter and then kissed him and went to bed...to pay my sleep debt, an act of self-care...not retaliation. And I slept great!!

LOL

We talked about it...me with my "Here's what I experienced" and him with his...he did own that was his old way...conflict avoidance...going to do it without me as a sacrifice for me and then hold it against me...so he was triple pleased he didn't do that...because he fears asking for anything...hears asking as SD's...so me doing what I did caught his own DJs...and he said he much prefers the reconnecting...and says there have been times he's reached for me and based on that action, not my response, his feelings changed, too.

Our old pattern was to have made this a proving ground...an event pointed to as proving our fears right, our feelings of rejection, shame, guilt, resentment and anger all bundled together in a mess and each other's fault...full of "If only you'ds" and shoulds...so we are retraining our brains...and it's wonderful. I feel proud of myself and my marriage...and my DH, too.

LA

EO, Congrats on that interview tomorrow! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I'm sure you've learned everything you needed to learn from being at home -- either that or the lessons you haven't learned yet will find another way to present themselves to you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LA -- Thank you so much for sharing that story! I love it. I'm feeling proud of you and your H too! Thank you so much for that inspiration.

Hugs, HTBH

Wow, LA, that was a story worth waiting for! That is amazing how you stayed in the moment, like an observer and a person at the same time!

H isn't planning on going to any more meetings, but I am grateful that he went with me to one, to see it isn't a bunch of women scheming to "fix" their drunken H's. Couldn't have been further from that, it was parents coping with their kids choices, Adult Children of alcoholics, spouses, men and women, all ages and ethnicities and incomes. I don't know if he had any idea before that how many people are touched by this disease. He's very shy, and the idea of being that intimate with your thoughts isn't something he wants to do, and I accept that. We meet with my Alanon friends outside of the meetings, and I think that helped.

"I'm sure you've learned everything you needed to learn from being at home -- either that or the lessons you haven't learned yet will find another way to present themselves to you!"

I agree!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My computer rebooted itself in the middle of my post, blah! Anyway, the interview went great, the job sounds awesome, a real growth opportunity, one I'm ready for, and only 10 minutes from my house! That's unheard of down here. My would-be coworkers are great, too.

EO,

My DH only went twice...and that was enough for him to know, too, that this wasn't a spouse bashing place. His fear was too high, he felt a lot of anxiety (feeling judged) and knew he wasn't being. Still meant a lot to me that he went, was brave...and the beauty of Al-Anon is that we can always go again, huh?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

So, when do ya start, EO? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

When will you know?

LA

Yep, that's the beauty of Alanon, of all of this, that it's there when you're ready for it.

I'll know Monday if I get the offer!

I've been feeling a lot more centered. I am still working on my step 4, a fearless and searching moral inventory. I had some difficulty at first keeping acceptance that I could have strengths and weaknesses, and that's okay, too.

I was ready to go out with H and his drinking buddy and the buddy's wife last night. As an observer, separate and equal. It was okay, and I'm so happy with myself for that. I brought a separate car, in case I got uncomfortable and had to leave, and they told me that I was wrong not to drive H home, because drinking and driving is serious. I said, I know, it is, and drove myself home anyhow.

H was ticked that I wanted to bring my own car, and wanted to know why. I told him, because I want to be able to leave if I'm uncomfortable, and after he thought on it, it was okay with him, because he brings his own car, too, like if we're visiting my friends and there's a ball game that will start halfway through.

So, I was thinking on it after we were done talking, and I thought, I could call a cab instead of bringing another car, why am I unwilling to do that? I haven't discussed it with him yet, because I'm still working this out in my head. He has been a designated driver for me before in the past, why am I unwilling to do this for him anymore? And it's really that I'm unwilling to enable him by driving him home anymore.

Ahhh...looking to see if taking your own car was self-care or P/A behavior, eh? Like, I don't approve of your drinking now, so I won't be your designated driver?

Interesting.

You know, I'm so glad I'm too old to drink...and that my DH feels the same way. When the headache (even when not drunk) out weigh the relaxed sensation..and the headaches last longer than the buzz, then the real payoff goes away all together.

I'm in a writing group and they love wine...and feel badly when I don't order anything alcoholic. I acknowledge them and say I love a soda, instead. They worry I'm a recovering alcoholic, even when I tell them, nope, I'm just a woos. I like my woosy self. ROFL And I don't judge them for their enjoyment...they don't experience what I do when I drink...and I hate headaches.

LOL

Helps that I get high off being around people...how amazingly intimate these ladies are, like mega doses of their truth is a drug...with no headache...though sometimes, the next day, my head still swims with all of it.

I'm glad you were brave and showed up...that you chose to be present. People share, some need mood-altering stuff to do that...still sharing. Presence matters. Showing up is an important part of life. Not if you'll resent, though...funny, the more you do it, the less you do resent...when people meet, God can share more...sometimes doesn't feel like it.

The cab idea gives you more options and less expectations than taking your car, doesn't it?

In your moral inventory step, remember the villagers...what you give up to God are your expectations which plague us all...giving up the wishful child to become the prayerful adult. Interesting time being on step 4 and learning boundaries at the same time, huh?

Thank you for sharing your stuff, EO. Seems like you're challenging the way you reason stuff out...instead of using the same steps to get to your conclusions. I don't hear any fear in that from you...just acceptance. Am I close?

LA

It's funny, my Alanon friends were all explaining why we don't drink, or don't drink more, and it was all things like this, that it's not worth the headache or the extra money or the calories, or we have kids to watch when we get home. Another lady pointed out, though, that's what's different for the alcoholic, that the high from the alcohol outweighs all this. It's a continuum. Really got me to thinking about why it takes me so long to lose the weight, why I've found myself unable to lower my calorie intake consistently enough to see big long-term results. When I see someone declining dessert, or like pieta described, throwing away the ice cream cone after two bites, I think, sorry they chose to miss out on this, but the reality is, that their life is plenty joyous without the piece of cake. Something for me to chew on <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Like you said, not fear, just looking at my thinking processes. I've learned from my time here with you all that I don't need fear to motivate me to stop making decisions that aren't working for me. That I can reason things out and be ready to change even when I'm not feeling a world of hurt to prompt it. I think it has to do with that cognitive dissonance, too, that if we have a lot invested in our ways of doing things, the pain would have to be extremely high in order to consider other options. If I'm a human being, not a human doing, then it's okay to look at changing my actions, doesn't change who I am. I am feeling acceptance <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Something for me to chew on"

ROFL!!

Good one, EO.

You nailed my own struggle...and I feel doubly stupid. Because I got to where I did not emotionally eat...and then I lost it. I got the perspective, freed myself, celebrated...and crashed back into the way I was before.

I did discover the same formula beneath my eating...entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect (for myself). I haven't turned it back around, though...still fuel it all with the self-bashing...which I've overcome greatly in other areas...this one, I believe is the core part, the earliest one.

I was hungry as a child...my mom was sick with leukemia...and I remember eating things I found...lipstick, mud...anything my imagination could make into food, because I couldn't reach the food in the kitchen. There is something bound up in me with food, fear, that addict's perception of get it all now, don't know when you'll get again...and reward.

We'll get it unravelled, I believe. I really do. I don't think replacing pain motivation with joy is an easy thing to do. Doesn't mean it can't be done, huh?

LA

"We'll get it unravelled, I believe. I really do. I don't think replacing pain motivation with joy is an easy thing to do. Doesn't mean it can't be done, huh?"

I agree. Hitting "bottom" with weight would be becoming morbidly obese, right? I don't think we need to get that far along to want to try something different.

I've been trying to figure this out on my own, but I am still confused how much honesty is apprpriate in social situations. HTBH, you set a great example, and I'm hoping to follow it, but I'm not sure that's always okay.

We went out with H's best buddy, M, and his wife, R, on Friday, to thank them for referring us to a public adjuster who got us an additional 20,000 settlement to repair our home after Hurricane Wilma last year. They had orginally given us 5,000, which seemed reasonable, but when we actually tried to get companies to quote to do the work, the 25,000 is what it actually will take. Now that we have the cash, we can move forward and complete the rest of the repairs. So far, we'd done only the roof, because the rest is less structural and more cosmetic (scrren porch, gutter replacement.

Wow, my heart is racing and I'm typing about other things, I'm nervous just thinking about this! So, we're out at dinner, and R is telling us what she did the weekend that H and M went to Las Vegas (our anniversary weekend, a trip that I was against H taking). She and M had a close male friend, B, who was moving, so the two of them took a farewell trip together to Central Florida. She went into great detail explaining how much they drank and how they shared a hotel room with two beds, how much fun they had, and how much she misses him, and he missed her and wished that he could move back. I said something like I'd missed H very much that weekend, and she said she loves to take vacations away from her H, M, to get away from his OCD. I'm not sure if that's diagnosed or what, it's the first I've heard of it. I don't know if her H wanted her to share that, either.

I felt like she used me and H to flaunt her friendship or more with B, but I asked no questions. I tried to change the subject, which I think is the polite thing to do when you don't like a subject, but she kept bringing it back. Is there anything I could have said at the table? In the moment I thought of asking if her H is comfortable with that relationship, but I'm feeling maybe that would be less than appropriate. "I'm feeling used, is that correct?" felt too confrontational to say. Would "This is our first time together in some time, and I'm not feeling comfortable with this, can we talk about something else?" be okay? Could I have said I need some help in the bathroom and went into more detail there?

W8ing, are you around? You mentioned that some people don't discuss certain things around you, I wish you were with us that night!

Edited to add:
I was all the more uncomfortable that H said a few months ago how he felt really wierd one night out with all of them, when B came in he kissed R in front of everyone. It felt so strange to him that he asked his buddy M if there's anything going on there, and M said he didn't know. So it was a surprise to me to hear her say they went away for the weekend together. If she's calling out for help, I wish she would've just said that, I know a great site to recommend <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

EO,

Did you hear on the job?

Why did your heart race? I'm curious to know what was in your mind...

And yes, definitely EA stuff...

When you get emotional indigestion, reach for the "I" bottle, "I feel really uncomfortable hearing you talk this way. I feel like you think I support your friendship with a man outside of your marriage. I'm feeling really uncomfortable right now."

Althought "This is our first time together in some time, and I'm not feeling comfortable with this, can we talk about something else?" is just you being brilliant.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

How about: "Wow, my heart is racing hearing you talk about B like this. Are you saying you're having an affair?"

ROFL

"You're saying you went away for a weekend with a man who isn't your husband? Really? Why on earth would you do that to your marriage? Eeeewwwwwweeee."

Yeah, like I'd do that...I don't know how to introduce fear into that...unless it would be "Aren't you afraid for your marriage? I am!"

Okay...so this is fantasy, which I love and can only allow myself four sentences or so per week. I'm full.

I'm not counting eeewwwweeeee as a sentence.

Did you at least share your stuff with H afterwards?

Hey, how's the laundry?

(((EO)))

LA

They're still interviewing, so today they said I'll hear by Friday. I'm kind of deflated, because if they thought I was perfect, would they have kept interviewing?

My heart was racing because I had talked the following morning to my H, and he feels that I am so judgemental, and that if I say anything, it would be because I'm so "prudish" and pious, even though he shared his concern that there's something going on there, too. So there I go again, fear of his reaction.

Reality is, I don't cause, control, or cure anyone else. If I said the wrong thing, it wouldn't cause a catastrophe. What's the worst case? That they ask some questions about what they already know, right? And I certainly am aware that I have no power to "fix" it much with my flashlight, if they're not open to it.

Thanks for the laundry reminder. It's on the couch again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Hi EO!



You don't want to follow my example by crying in public?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I like your suggestion, to just say "This is our first time together in some time, and I'm not feeling comfortable with this, can we talk about something else?"

I've been thinking on this a little, and I think I'm going to start saying this myself. "I'm feeling uncomfortable..." Seems like a perfect fit for all those times I feel uncomfortable but don't know what to say, but feel icky for not saying something.

I like it!

LA, I like this one, too: "You're saying you went away for a weekend with a man who isn't your husband? Really? Why on earth would you do that to your marriage? Eeeewwwwwweeee."

LOL. I know I don't have the nerve to say that, but man I wish I did! LOL.

I also wanted to go back a couple days, when you guys were talking about eating/not eating dessert, and drinking/not drinking wine.

EO said

And this struck me for some reason. Why do we even notice what other people are eating or drinking? Do we need the validation that other people are doing it too? Is that why we judge them when they make a different choice than we do (ie, some of us are flabbergasted by people who DO eat the entire ice cream, and others are flabbergasted by people who DON'T). Why does it even matter to me what you are eating?

I don't have any answers for you, just questions. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It just seems to me that your response to what other people are eating is significant, and I'm not sure exactly why yet.

About the job -- the job I have now, I was one of the first people who interviewed for it, and they interviewed several more after me, just to be sure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> So I wouldn't think the fact that they are still interviewing means they didn't like you. I've got my fingers crossed for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Regarding your post on my thread, about your H, have you read the Passionate Marriage? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's my latest favorite book. LOL. I think it's really fascinating how he talks about differentiation, and how you have to be able to risk your partner rejecting you for you to ever have true intimacy.

I just started reading the chapter on intimacy (emotional, not SF-wise) last night, and his viewpoint is really unique. He says intimacy has 2 parts: one is knowing yourself, and the other is sharing that self with someone else. It doesn't matter HOW the other person responds (or if they do) -- you can still be intimate with them and have an intimate moment -- no matter what the other person does.

One of you can think it was an intimate moment (and be right!), even while the other one thinks it was awful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He says not to let the other person have power over whether or not you believe you are intimate.

Does that make sense? Does that help at all?
(((EO)))

HTBH <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"You don't want to follow my example by crying in public??" Not what I meant, although it would have been more HUMAN than changing the subject. I meant your example of telling people difficult things after the fact, like a drive-by, almost. Actually, I'm kind of grooving on that idea.

"I've been thinking on this a little, and I think I'm going to start saying this myself. "I'm feeling uncomfortable..." Seems like a perfect fit for all those times I feel uncomfortable but don't know what to say, but feel icky for not saying something."

Yep, sounds like boundary notification, to me. This is the first time my boundaries have been crossed in a social setting, and I feel better for next time.

"I know I don't have the nerve to say that, but man I wish I did! LOL."

Me, too. H's brother is having a hard time in his marriage, and I was saying pretty much everything I say here. "I believe that there's a plan that can save you're marriage, it's not too late." That was easy because I beleive that whole-heartedly.

"'When I see someone declining dessert, or like pieta described, throwing away the ice cream cone after two bites, I think, sorry they chose to miss out on this'

Do we need the validation that other people are doing it too?"

I think you nailed it on the head, I need them to stay on the merry-go round to keep the balance, and when they get off, it leaves me uneasy.

"About the job -- the job I have now, I was one of the first people who interviewed for it, and they interviewed several more after me, just to be sure. So I wouldn't think the fact that they are still interviewing means they didn't like you. I've got my fingers crossed for you! "

Thanks, I needed that!

"Regarding your post on my thread, about your H, have you read the Passionate Marriage?"
Wow, you think I'm ready for more rejection <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the info on intimacy, it makes a lot of sense. I love that idea of having an intimate connection, anyway. I have felt that to some extent, like with the drive-by O&H.

Oh yeah, that example. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I kinda like the idea, too, although I have to admit that I really just sort of stumbled onto it by necessity.


Man, this happens to me ALL THE TIME (see my post about work... LOL) and I've never known what to say. How brilliant to simply say ... I'm not comfortable with that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I love it, truly.



LOL! No silly! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I picked the book up one day because Hold had mentioned it in an old thread, and I started reading and was absolutely memorized by the stuff about differentiation and intimacy. I swear, I'm not reading it for the info on sex! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Heehee. OK not JUST for the info on sex.

The first several chapters are about differentiation and intimacy, and while a lot of the examples are related to SF, not all of them are, and the theories themselves are just so interesting. I recommend it, even if you aren't ready to make any moves in the SF department just yet! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I agree with you, too that the drive by O&H is a great way to open that intimate connection, to start feeling/being intimate without any expecation or requirement of a response from your partner. Separate and equal is basically the same as differentiation, from what I can tell so far. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Happy, this separate and equal has really been sinking in deeper for me than it sank in before. I went to the library the other day and put in a request for Positive Discipline, and I'll ask for this one, Passionate marriage, next. The library by me is little, but they can request books from the downton one.

I got 123 Magic, it is wonderful. I needed something with little emotional investment to give these other ideas time to sink in. And it's so funny how we see things through our filters, I'm reading this and I'm thinking, progressive boundary reinforcement, separate and equal. Because you just count the offense, not lecture or judge or react.

H threw me a BIG birthday party at our house yesterday, it was great! We had 24 people come! I really felt like myself, the whole time, able to share my presence and love, and to enjoy everyone else. I had my hopper firmly on, and had my separate and equal filter on inside, too, to keep judgement out. And I could accept for myself that it's okay to need this much precaution today.

H told me after that his brother and his buddy talked together and decided that they weren't going to come to my boring party with a "bunch of nerds". Then, BiL's wife told BiL that she was leaving (they've been struggling), and BiL called SiL and told her, and that he has been thinking about suicide lately. So SiL calls me, frantic, that she called after that and there was no answer, she wants H to go check on BiL. H was out picking up D10 from an acting lesson, had to leave the party for a bit, so I called him and asked him, because he wasn't answering SiL's calls, either.

So SiL calls H's buddy, M, and asks him to come get H to go drive by BiL's to see if everything is okay. So H's buddy M comes to the party, I didn't know he was just there to get H, I thought he came for the party. They ate (and drank) first, and I was puzzled, because if I thought my brother was commiting suicide, I wouldn't have dinner before I went to check on him. Separate and equal, I reminded myself that I don't know the whole story, and BiL has a Higher Power protecting him. They went when they were "good and ready," and found BiL was safe asleep. H was annoyed that SiL and I had pressured him into being "duped" again by BiL, especially after how BiL had snubbed him about the party he was throwing.

That hit me like a spotlight, like Happy, BTE, and LovingAnyway were all with me, saying, "we knew you were going to get it, we're glad you stayed long enough to see it". I have no control over, and even very little knowledge of the truth in so many matters. This is why it is healthy and okay for me to focus on my own little life, to trust others to ask for help when they need it, and not get myself worked up over everyone else's dramas. I was glad that I hadn't left the party myself to "intervene" with BiL.