Wow, SoCal for the summer (on an expense acct)! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> You lucky duck! I hear Cal is very expensive, I hope if you decide to stay, you have good luck with housing. Has your H asked if there will be a cost-of-living increase should he move there permanently?

That seems to be our problem too. Sounds like you've found a working solution. The code word is too funny! ROFL!

Sounds like being shook up out of your routine has really opened up the thinking. How is DH handling the SoCal transition so far?

H is on a temporary assignment, but is looking for something permanent. Salary is one thing he'd negotiate.

In public, I've been telling the kids to make wind instead of telling them to fart, LOL. They still bust up laughing.

H is really happy with the transistion so far.

I've been long overdue to talk to H about the lack of affection. The last time I talked to him about it was probably a year ago when he was thinking of leaving, so it was not the most opportune time. I've been focusing more on cutting out the LBs. But I need to be O&H about all of it.

I have a POJA question. Many times, H is not enthusiastic. But if I ask again the next day if that would be okay, he's fine. And if I ask if he's enthusiastic, he says it's fine, just drop it. Is that enthusiasm? Or giving in?

Specifically, I'm working from home this summer, and the kids could go to day camp, or my sister could fly out here and stay with us and take the kids out during the day. The kids prefer their aunt, and my sister wants to come. My sister isn't H's favorite person lately, but he's saying okay. Having someone live with you that you're not enthusiatic about could create resentment, but in the past, H has instead been happy once she's here, because they've gotten along well.

EO,

I love your code word and your SoCal modification. You have a great sense of humor and I wish you coulda been MY mom!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

About POJA...why ask again? You ask once...talk it out...he's not enthusiastic...do you ask again because you guys didn't keep brainstorming until you came up with a mutual agreement? Or do you ask again because you still want to do/whatever and he doesn't?

Did you wear your folks down like this, EO? I know my kids have...and I KNOW I did as a child...'cuz I heard my Dad talking to other salesman saying, "Never talk 'No' for an answer"...heehee. Well..."No means no" was said directly to me.

What if you respected his first statement that he's not enthusiastic and whatever it was, wasn't done. No resentment...acceptance. Do you think that he would keep saying "no" over time, when he KNEW you'd accept his no flat out? Would he be more careful with his own judgment, impulse to say "No" right away?

In that book you ordered...the brain one...my DH says there's a section on the "automatic no"...I haven't gotten there yet. I'm looking forward to it. He's mentioned it several times to me...asking if I'd gotten to it...and he wants to discuss it after I do. Have to get the book back from him, though.

LOL

He found huge relief in that book, EO. He's a man made of fear, so he's felt all his life. A defensive life. He's finding relief, validation, finally. Pretty darn exciting I get to be his partner right now, I believe.

Was H's "no" also for the day camp idea? Wanna know a parenting secret? When my mother died and my sister and I were sent to old friends to stay for the summer...she didn't want four kids on her hands all hours of the day...so she sent us off to vacation bible school each week...at a different church. I remember the Methodist, the Presbyterian, the Catholic (which they were), and one I don't remember knowing the demonination. Gotta tell you, to this day I love having had that experience. It was cool in the churches, out of the heat...we weren't the only kids who didn't know anyone else...and we make crafts, I remember jelly, and painted, played and sang all different songs. Would you call that slovenly parenting? Slacking responsibility? Or creative genius?

When there weren't any more VBS nearby...she sent us to help her middle son with mowing yards for a living with his BF...which was terribly hot, sticky, dirty...dragging bags around...getting yelled at and teased...and our only pay was a rootbeer (in a frosted glass, my size) at A&W drive in.

Heaven.

I think it's the little ways a mother bird pokes her babies in the butt to fly...only we can fly back each night, safe.

Oh, my...where was I?

We came here, to Colorado...that's where we were sent...and we're on the verge of summer...don't tell me our past isn't present...takes a breath, a heart beat and a friend to go back with us.

What was H's plan?

LA

Personally, I don't think having your sister stay is a good idea. I presume she would be under the same roof in your two bedroom appt? Not much room for personal space, no? We routinely take vacations with my in-laws, and even on their best behavior (which is respectible), I find it very stressful. My marital problems has decreased my tolerance for them; and despite this knowlege, I still can't find the strength to deal with them in larger doses. Based on my experience, I'd say your DH is conflict avoiding, enthusiastically. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

But there is a positive spin: if your kids are at day camp, they will meet friends to play with during the summer. You can socialize with parents who can dish the inside scoop about the area.

Were it me, I'd have my sister come to visit for a week after things are a little more settled.

I ask again because we keep leaving it up in the air. I don't want to push one solution, we just let things drag out so long that we minimize our other options.

I do respect his initial no on things that I can make do with no resolution on. This is a brand new thing, keeping on with negotiation past the inital no. Instead of just choosing to do nothing because we haven't agreed on anything. Trying new steps.

The part I left out that was really relevant too is that for a month my sister's said she wants to come out, and H would say, I don't know, I think we're only getting a 1 bedroom place, but if we get a two bedroom place, it'd be okay. "It'd be okay" is still not enthusiasm.

Reading that back, it reads like rationalization, huh.

I'd say that out of the choices, it's the one that H is the most relatively enthusiastic about. LA, Chobbs, I love your other ideas. I feel like stuck on this plan now, this time. The last few weeks would have been the time for O&H, that no answer, with my sister as a backup plan, is not an acceptable answer. Let's keep thinking.

Chobbs, I hear you about staying with family you're not comfortable with. My sister came to stay with us the two summers we were in MN. They got along great. It's just this year that things have gotten strained. So I understand the situation has changed.

On Nia's thread you said, better to be honest with myself, so I am looking at whether I am prioritizing my sister yet again instead of H. If I am manufacturing acceptance on H's part.

I just spoke to him, and his plan also was to go ahead with this plan this time. We were both O&H about how this didn't turn out to be a win-win this time, and resolved to be more proactive next time.

I still need to order that book!

Thank you for looking out your own motives underneath. Without the judgment or shaming. Good to know!

Did I mention I like how you changed your sigline? I noticed...didn't mention. Miss the boat quote, though.

You know, you can have both.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Any hope of doing communications exercises twice a week?

LA

We've haven't been successful getting my sister a flight up yet. He's enthusiastic on behalf of the kids, because they really connect with her. We got D11 with a great manager, who is sending her to a top agency, and she recommended an exciting acting camp that had space for both girls, starting in another week. So things are working out (except from my sister's POV) better than I could have planned. And the camp BTE suggested would take care of our last week here.

LA, it's uncanny that you posted about the communication exercise last night. At dinner last night H said that he'd like to work on his communication style, because he's noticed a pattern at work that he'd like to do differently. I'll suggest it today, it sounds like a win-win.

I dropped the bringing my sister up idea. I'm going to try what Soolee does, working with the kids here, this week, and then D11 will be going to camp next week, with D6 joining her the week after.

H asked me what ever happened to my sister coming up? I said I want to find a solution we both like. And he didn't look happy about that. Not mine to own. I started asking clarifying questions, and it really helped me answer the questions I had asked above. He was more enthusiastic than he had said, it wasn't just my imagination. But it's okay, we have another solution now that we're trying.

The drinking situation is still a work in progress. I would like him to limit his drinking around me, but I know that it's not healthy to set limits on other people's actions. The answer is for me not to be around at those times. Maybe go to bed early. I haven't figured out how to do that and still have 15 hours of UA time. I am thinking we can start small and work up from there when we find more activities we like to do.

The other main point of contention we have is the eating thing, which we have a solution we're trying. H was with us for the grocery shopping this week, so everything we bought were things he was okay with. And we'll limit meals or snacks out to the weekend, to minimize the impact of that. I am hoping that alleviates his anxiety about that, while giving the kids choices about their eating.

My plan with the kids about their bickering is going really well. I loved what pieta had to say about the "respect me" cards, so I told them we could make cards, and they liked that idea! I also added what she had said about the hug, and they're having fun with that, too.

Guess what else is great about that game? When we're out for a walk, and one is too far, I have a code word I can say that they'll run up laughing and give me a hug! Instead of getting mad that I want them to walk close. I try to be congnizant that they want to stop and look at things, and stop when they do sometimes so they can do that, too.

EO,

Look at you! You go, woman! Seriously...all this, relocating, all the upset to routines...and you're continuing some and discontinuing others. Talk about changes on the fly.

Wow.

Found any Alanon meetings around you yet?

When are you going to bring up the communication exercises? Btw, my DH passed on to me that his upper level management coached them in these same listening techniques.

What's your DDs' code word for when they want you to run up and hug them?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I love the respect cards, too. Did you give them to your DH? Yourself?

Hmmmm.

Look...you added in your old sigline quote...very nice. You're quick with redecorating. Probably comes in handy in your new digs.

Gotta share...DH and I went grocery shopping together...with my eye to changing my diet (for the triathalon) and we fell into really old ground. Funny how food can be a battlefield...a control center...a place of really ancient stuff, eh? I wonder if it's our oldest one.

LA

No, LA, I haven't looked for an Alanon meeting yet, but that's a great idea.

I was waiting for the right moment to bring up the communication exercises. Because H was so "do we have to?" last time. But like you say, we are new every day! So I will ask him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

They do call out for a hug, too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'll let you know how it goes with the cards.

Man, it is funny how food can be old ground. D11 wanted to celebrate yesterday by going out to eat. We brainstormed going for a swim instead. It's a good thing we can be new every day.

EO,

How about offering H two different exercises and asking him which one he would like to try first?

Here's another one...from Fighting For Your Marriage by Howard Markman.

Use the same time guidelines as the other exercise. Twice a week, two days apart. Only in this one, you do both, speaker and listener, more like a chat.

You make up seven index cards. First one says "Speaker"...just one of those, as it gets passed, back and forth. Then you make up two sets--one with a + sign, one with a null sign, and one with a - minus sign. Each of you have one of each of these for your exercise.

When you're the Speaker, you share your stuff...and you hold up one of the "intent" cards...if your intent is positive, no intent, or negative.

I didn't see the beauty of the negative intent one until recently. See, if you want to retaliate, hurt your listener back...hold that up as you speak reasonably and calm. Amazing how identifying this heightens intimacy through honesty...and the listener may not feel poked at if they know you intend to poke them.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There's no rule of time for how long the Speaker gets. Once you finish your bite-size piece, hand the Speaker card to the Listener and then listen...use listen and repeat as you go. And when you listen and repeat, you can use the intent cards, as well. Be sure to hold up the null sign when you have no intent...as well as the positive one. This really boosts awareness of your stuff, even as you're sharing it...and repeating his stuff back to him.

I hope I've relayed this as it was in the book. I remember they had something they put on the fridge, under a magnet. I'm wondering if these cards wouldn't be like your respect cards...something at hand, that even the kids could reach for, understand and use...when you're not "in" an exercise...just any exchange, especially heated ones?

Good to know your DDs have a code word for your hugs, as well. I'm going to use all of this with my granddaughter, btw...helps with the regret of not having done this with my sons.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for sharing your innovative reward switch...from food to swim. Very cool. How is your exercise program going and is that why you seem so darn collected, clear and cool lately?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Today I will think about you and the girls swimming it up...when I'm swimming my quarter mile, 'k? That should keep me for about ten of the 26 laps.

LOL

LA

LA, that's a great idea, to go in with another alternative. I remember long ago HitchHiker suggesting something similar, passing a remote.

Okay, here's my fear, that instead of having no intent, I suspect I still try to control the response. Like through DJs, where I mistakenly think I have the answer already. I can see how that would be good to know!

The kids have been changing code words, too. Here in California, there are many signs in other languages and alphabets, and the kids have pretend conversations in other "dialects," how they imagine those speakers would talk. Pure intent, no actual words exchanged.

The exercise is going great. We go almost every day. I am setting the machines to higher weights than when I was in my 20s. And the treadmill faster. We have two gyms in our apartment building. I get mildly sore muscles, and every time I feel sore, it's like a hug, a reminder that I am doing good self-care. And my clothes are fitting better, too.

I tried swimming laps yesterday, I got to 2 before D6 wanted me to carry her. That is some work! Does your granddaughter like the water?

{{{{{EO}}}}} Thanks for inviting me to your thread! 55 pages is a bit daunting <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> but from what I've read so far, I am even more impressed with you than I was before. I am learning a lot from you and from your posts, even if I don't always say it "out loud".

jayne, thanks! I don't expect you to read the whole thing, you can see that alot of my journey was learning the same lesson again and again, understanding it a little more each time. I am really lucky to have these folks, LA, Happy, BTE, Deserving, and others, here to walk this with me.

If I could have changed anything about my story, I would have gotten more consistent with the progressive boundaries from the beginning. I was reluctant to say, "Stop, that's abusive," because I was afraid to "set him off." Looking back, that's controlling and trying to control the outcome. Walking on eggshells was a good skill to have when I was a kid and had no other options to keep safe. But now as an adult, I can set boundaries on what I am willing to expose myself to and participate in.

I also would have worked with my doctor to get a better handle on my weight issue and depression from the beginning. It is more empowering than I would have imagined to watch myself grow healthier.

I still have to keep an eye on my focus. When I am most frustrated, I look at this, and usually find that my focus is in the past, the future, or on someone else's actions. Pieta and LA and so many others here on the board have been such great role models about this. If you look at their posts, they are always about what a person can do themself in the here and now, to make their day more full of joy.

Here's what we decided with the kids: D11, camp for two weeks, and D6, camp for one week, and my sister, visiting for two weeks.

We've talked before how food is a battleground, and we're trying differnt solutions. None of which have yet brought peace to our home. Hence progressive boundary enforcements. So I'm still working on separate and equal, on listen and repeat. Another pole on the staircase. But I feel like I'm doing okay with this.

Now my sister is here. It turned into a huge stirring of the pot. She doesn't like what my H says to D11, nor how he looks at her with judgement when she doesn't make food choices he agrees with. She was telling me about it in front of D6, and D6 says he calls D11 "fat' when I'm not there. My sister is steaming. This isn't fair to her. It isn't fair to H. She wishes she hadn't come.

This, too, shall pass. For me, I think it's good that the pot's getting stirred. That we're shining a light on this stuff. I don't think it's more than we can handle.

EO,

What do you teach your DD11 to say (or DD6, for that matter) when someone gives them their opinion?

"Thank you for sharing your opinion."

This separates fact from opinion.

Really useful...as I'm not discovering. I am grateful for the sharing...I may feel wishful that they had another opinion.

The more I am truthful and clear...the more my life experience will be one of truth and clarity.

Teach your sister, your DDs and yourself...that you are as powerful as other...

Which is my opinion.

::insert curtsy here:::

Where do you and your sister consistently rob yourself?

When your focus goes where it has no control. And you control your focus.

Adds to the feelings you have of frustration, powerlessness and futility, doesn't it?

(And I grew up with this dynamic exactly between my mother and my sister...so I'm in your DD6's shoes...hurts as much to watch as it is for the target. Use the lessons, EO.)

LA

LA, thanks. I keep trying solutions, none of which have seemed to work. The kids see me lisen and repeat. I like your addition, to thank someone for their opinion.

Yes, I'm working on my focus. How can I be kind to myself in this situation. How can I protect the kids. I do see where I am DJing H, mistakenly seeing him as the problem, rather than as a person with an issue we can resolve.

I have tried to introduce some of this to my sister, too. I told her, that his angry glances are his to own.

EO,

Affirming to ourselves is within our control.

Acting from respect is within our control.

Making someone else do or not do, say or not say...not within our control.

Sharing our own stuff. "Daddy, when you say I am fat, I fear you will only love and respect me if I am not fat. I don't see myself as fat. I like who I am. I'm sorry you do not."

Little P/A DJ there at the end.

LOL

"I know you have a problem in your perception of my weight. You believe your concern comes from love. I believe it comes from fear."

Not for EO to handle...her DD11 and her father...their relationship. Not yours, EO. You keep focusing on protecting your children, then you keep them living from fear...experiencing fear. As you did.

How about focusing on your belief IN them...their power, their limits..."Your father shared his opinion. How about sharing your stuff?"

Acknowledge, validate and make sure you're doing what you're encouraging, yourself.

I believe you are. I think this is an old spiral dip...the dance you used to know so well...only with you and H, not DD11 and H. See the separate and equal relationships...each with half. Equal. Even pint-sized DD6 has her half.

Show your DDs that acknowledging, tracing and understanding their own pain signals is part of their true power...not false reactivity. No victims in EO's family...not a one!

Thrive, EO...this is the part where getting out of the boat is the hardest for you, I believe. From you steeping in your fears and others, all your life.

Break free. Discover you've been flying all along.

LA

"You keep focusing on protecting your children, then you keep them living from fear...experiencing fear. As you did."

I'm not sure what you mean here. Do you mean that if I shield then when I'm present, instead of encouraging them to state their stuff, I'm leaving them defenseless when I'm not present?

Do you mean my kids need to build hoppers, too? I remember how hard that was, to practice keeping that hopper up, for quite some time. I'd like to think I've created a life for my kids where they don't need to do that. Where everyone is always loving and kind.

Yes, this is where it's scary to get out of the boat! To think, okay, my kids are right behind me, when I can't see them!

I'm thinking, maybe other kids were born with hoppers? And that the enmeshment we had in the Ears house required taking them down? So now they have to rebuild them?