Bad choice of words. What I meant to say was, "I think that's a good thing to know, if one partner doesn not see room in the relationship for the other spouse's perspective." His truth. Doesn't make it The truth.

I look forward to seeing you, too! I am hoping we can make a winter trip out there, if that's a good time for you, too.

The exercising has been really big for me, too, having the alone time to work through things, to process them.

I hesitate to post this. Things escalated to where it got physical the other night. It was "mild," but that is past my pre-determined boundary of what I can live with. I've taken a few days to think about whether this is still where my walk-line is. I think it is time to get make what-if preparations in case I can't get to a place where I feel emotionally safe here. I haven't made any decisions; I'll wait until I can get some professional help, like with an MC, with this.

(((EO))) please remember phsyical safety is just as important as emotional safety. Please also remember, what your children hear and see..

What that being said, also remember, to take a break, even if for a day or week, does not mean it has to be over for good. Physical abuse, either way, may be the hill to die on to take a different step in healing the marriage. It may be the last draw in saving the marriage. That is up to you..

Oh (((EO)))

Be safe. Know that you are in my thoughts and prayers. Whichever way you decide to go, I'm behind you all the way.

BTE, I hear you, that I can take this as a wake-up call and do some good for my marriage. D11 pushed my 16 year old sister a couple of times, and she pushed D11 back off of her, in her face. H didn't think I understood how serious it was, he wanted to "show" me, and he came over to me and pushed me in my face, hard. He didn't hit me. He says his intention wasn't to hurt me. But it hurt, and this has happened a couple of times over the years, where he's "showed" me something in this way, and it hurt, and I told him it's not okay and not to do it.

It was hard on the kids. I ran out of the apartment, not knowing that they kids thought I was leaving for good. I go out quietly all the time when it escalates. When I came back, I asked H to go out for a while, and he did, and the kids asked me not to leave, that I promised to stay with their dad. That he didn't mean anything by what he did. I didn't know how to respond to that, so I said I'm not leaving right now.

I'm not okay with what my sister did, either, and I told her that. D11 said it wasn't hard, and they made up.

EO~

Personally, I would take this time to sit down with your dh and girls and all talk about what happened together, and that noone puts their hands on anyone, unless it's invited. That way you cover your dd's actions with your sis and dh's actions with you. I believe it would show that we all make mistakes but it's not OK to put our hands on each other.

How old is your sis EO? I just keep thinking if you are going to have problems with your Dmom because of this trip? The arguments she has had with your dh and then this? How much longer will your sis be there?

(((EO)))

I agree that it would be good for all of us to have a sit down like that again. We had one maybe six months ago, too, so this time I think we need to back it up with consistency and some counseling instead of assuming it's behind us.

Above, I said my sister is 16, I forgot she's 17 now. She's been coming to stay with us most summers for years and this is the first time she's put a hand on D11. I already have problems with my mom, and I would agree that it will be worse because of this trip. My daughters, my sister and I are leaving tomorrow to drive to my brother's wedding, and H will be flying out Friday. Then after the wedding my sister will be going home with my mom.

I'm sorry I don't have a good perspective on this, I grew up in a very physically abusive home and have no idea where healthy people draw lines. I wonder, and I could absolutely be very wrong in this, could it be that between kids it isn't nearly as bad? Like, if D11 and sis are now ok with it, should the grups (grownups <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) let it be? (At least let be what was done between them - not between you and H.) Were they just horsing around or was it done in anger?

Like I said, I don't have a clue as to what's healthy, so I'm just asking, not trying to lead you one way or another.

If it were our two kids, yes, we stay out unless they are asking for help with a resolution. At which point one or both of us are pretty good at helping them resolve it. Usually they just want to be heard, and don't even need a solution.

Here, though, it's not two siblings. H sees it as my sister misusing her authority role with D11, acting out of agression towards her. Which is why I asked her clarifying questions. That's not how the girls saw it. They weren't playing, but more like trying to establish the boundary, and now they found it. When D11 was younger they did horse around a lot, but now she's older, my sister doesn't find it funny anymore.

Jayne, thanks for your questions. I think it's how we figure stuff out.

EO,

What I heard you say is that H used you physically to demonstrate what he found unacceptable in what Sis did, is that correct?

That this was a predetermined boundary...has happened before? Do you recall what your predetermined boundary enforcement was? Since you're moving on up the boundary enforcements arena...there are those which we do by incident (like the one you put in your sigline) and there are those which remain open...like this one...where he can do this three years ago and does it now and it's the second, third, or fourth boundary enforcement, not the first, each time.

I think you'd be up to calling the police, btw, calmly, as an enforcement, not retaliation, given history. Can you see the difference? You aren't an example, a tool or a presentation device. You're a human being who said "Do not do this again" and he did. Up to you to continue your enforcement to the next one. Not him.

He knew.

Same for when you had an H and DD event a few months ago...those continue, don't start over with enforcement #1...the physical ones do not. If you stated before that you would involve authorities if he put his hands on you (your face or otherwise) without consent, then you gotta do that, don't you?

If you didn't, do so know...it's informing, not threatening. "I remember we've been through this before. When you chose to put your hand to my face to demonstrate, you crossed my boundary as you have done before. Next enforcement will be me calling the police. I know I have said that before and not chosen to do it...I'm not threatening...since I didn't do it before, I understand if you don't choose to believe me."

This isn't marriage ending...it's you holding your boundaries for you and your family...and it's respectful of your H's choices. If you won't do this when it happens again...would it aid you to say, "Stop. Do not show me physically. I know you can describe what you want without using my body to communicate." Then if he continues, maybe that will reach your level required to enforce the police boundary.

Your H and you had two different perceptions. I don't think H's belief that your sis was acting out of aggression was unreasonable. Nor was yours. She was acting out. This wouldn't be a one-of-us-is-right deal at all. Your H acts out of aggression, he may have been showing his filter there as a way to explore it, not have it refuted. Not about being right.

Then again, maybe not. What if you'd validated..."Yes, I agree with you that Sis and DD were acting out."?

You sound very calm and present...didn't know he was flying out at the end of the week...are you guys driving out and then driving back with him? How's work going? You haven't mentioned it that I recall...the finishing up stuff. That runs through September or sometime closer?

And back to room for reality about perspectives...would you consider your H fears your perspective? Perspective has judgment, approval and disapproval...where our DJs will be most obvious. We can have dangerous perspectives...I sure did.

{{{{EO}}}} 'Cuz you always have a lot of stuff going on and you keep growing with it, every bit of the way.

LA

LA, thanks for responding. I want a calm, serene, uneventful life, yet it doesn't feel that way. I haven't been able to trace back where I contribute to this. What the payoff could possibly be.

Which is why I didn't call the police, after I earlier this year, the last time it happened, I said I would. I can't imagine giving my kids the memory of the police coming out. To send that message that I need protection from their father. When he had already stopped, and I wasn't in immediate danger. What protection would the police offer me at that point? Future protection, which is important, too. So I'm trying to think, how can I accomplish that same goal, future protection, without escalating things further. I think there are a lot of counseling ways to achieve that same goal.

When I made that promise to call the police, I was talking from a physical, gripping fear. I am not that same woman, feeling a trigger to when I was a kid in physical danger. This weekend, I felt pain, but not fear. I know I can get away. I hadn't rethought my predetermined boundary enforcements, because I was in ednial that we could come to those same actions with all we were learning. I thought H was more in connection with his core values. He has a strong protective instinct, which first drew me to him. Which is why I think that counseling can reconnect him to that. Because that is who he is. I think he acted out towards me because he felt D11 was threatened.

Yes, I do agree that both girls were acting out. H and I talked about this, about giving ourselves permission to do that, and revoking it. We had a good day yesterday, and I'm feeling a nagging guilt about that, that we had a good day at my kids' expense. ecause now I know this stuff is under the surface and must be addressed. I'll feel better once I've shown myself that I can be consistent with addressing it.

Yes, we're planning to drive back, together. His 50th birthday. Work hasn't been clear about an end date, even though they brought on a new hire last week. I haven't started looking for a position out here. I was kind of going with the flow, waiting until they told me I was finishing up before I looked for something else, because my income isn't our primary one. I need to be more proactive now.

Thanks for the hugs!

EO,

Are you on the drive back now? I saw you post to LoBoy, so I took a shot.

Happy Bday to Mr.EO.

How was your good day at your kids' expense?

You giving your girls the memory of police coming out...if their husbands were harming them in front of their children...is that the thought you'd want them to have?

You don't give it...the person who lays hands disrespectfully on their partner gives them that memory.

I respect your choice to not hold to your predetermined boundary. To work through...I'm concerned about you needing to feel fear in order to act...to react from your feelings...that permission.

Especially when you revoked your permission to react from your feelings. I believe you can understand my concern. I think you have it, as well.

A shove, a pinch, a push, hard squeeze...what's your level?

How was your drive out?

Not about sending the message that says you need protection from their father...says we make our choices and all choices have consequences. You can protect yourself from others through progressive boundary enforcements...won't control them...they control you.

Your desire for a calm, serene, uneventful life...is that your desire from your adult experience or your child one? Life is event-filled...micro- to macroscopically. You set the focus. You have serenity as a signal that your beliefs are in harmony...your grip on reality is with both hands and your acceptance is high. Big-picture scope aids in this signal. What's in your control is how bumpy you make it inside of you...which is reasonable...to help you harmonize your true beliefs.

You're finding your DJs (that this wouldn't happen given your marriage progress) through dischord. That's how I kept finding them. Sounds reasonable to me.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Isn't pleasant...it's a sure way of discovering them, though. Unreasonable expectations are DJs...have faulty beliefs behind them...usually in direct conflict with what you really do know.

People do and don't do. No predictions to it...people are.

LA

Hi LA, we're still here in New Mexico, through Monday. H gets in tonight. We have internet in the hotel, though.

I've spent the week with my extended family. We've had an awesome O&H week. I felt kind of shocked to read your post, like, wow, this is part of my reality, too.

LA, I needed a good day. The bottom of the love bank deposit bucket was kicked out. If I don't follow up and be proactive to keep this from happening again, then it would have been at my kids' expense. I am not going to make that the case.

What's my level? Putting hands on the other person in anger. But those things you mentioned, those have all happened already. With no recognition from H that they aren't okay under any circumstances. I see where I have showed him that I am willing to tolerate that. Which is why I need to change what I'm doing. I think MC will help because I don't feel able to enforce that on my own. I need outside support. I see where calling the police is also part of the support structure set up to help folks in this situation.

I was scared, LA. Scared where things would go if I escalate. Shame that my kids might tell family and friends what goes on in our house. Especially as we were about to drive out to see everyone. You are right, LA, big-picture acceptance. I can get there.

We're back in California. I left a message this morning with a new IC/MC. I'm going to try to follow the directions in Dr. Harley's article on finding a good MC this time. I was afraid of asking questions last time that would make it seem like I knew what direction I wanted to take; I wanted to trust the counselor to find the path. But really, it wasn't unitl the end, when I shared what I'm working on, and asked specifically for help with that, that I got the help I needed. He could have corrected me if he felt I was off-track, and I would have taken that input. So now I'm going to upfront share the MB plan and ask for help with that.

I'm having trouble with acceptance, today. I'm mad, angry that I have to go to what seem great lengths to establish some precautions to protect myself. I DJ that it should be obvious to my H after all this time and all this O&H that it's not okay to judge me and belittle me any more. Much less put a hand on me. I recognize my payoff for that; that if I judge that it should be obvious to him, then momentarily I'm living in a fantasy that he would provide me with some protection, rather than me constantly having to be vigilant about boundaries.

Then I come here, and come back to reality. I can do this. I can become more effective with boundaries; for my own sake and everyone else in this house. I can choose to keep shaking off the denial that we I can let down my guard. I don't know what extraordinary precautions look like with this physical stuff, but it's reasonable to think that they would involve being willing to call the police when I'm pushed. I owe it to myself to found out what these extraordinary precautions would look like.

Since then, my awareness has been up, and I see that I am often being lightly pushed and shoved in the house. And I see how I've been saying ouch, moving on physically, but emotionally still hurting. I set my predetermined enforcements too low to really help me. I'm thinking I'm going to change them to, like LA said, not being cumulative on a daily basis, restarting at 0 every day. Because that's not true for me. When I get pushed today, it is relevant that yesterday I asked for it to stop. I'm allowing my love bank to become dangerously low, and I can choose not to do that.

I stopped taking the ADs again, because I think it really contributed to how I lessened my awareness, too.

LA, thanks for that image. If my girls were one day in that situation, I would want them to feel empowered to protect themselves. Instead of focused on shame, where no solutions or protection lie.

EO,

Welcome home (yes, that's a double-meaning welcome).

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I think it's really difficult to tell what boundaries start at 0 every day and those that do not. Isn't easy for me, either. Eseential, not easy.

Extraordinary actions...let's look at cumulative again. We react cumulatively to present events...took a long road, a lot of stuff on that road, to get to right here. Makes sense it takes a lot to change roads, doesn't it? Not extraordinary...equivalent...balanced energy, awareness and lines to hold.

Go back to your fears in your previous post...for others to know what goes on in your house...and how growing up, others didn't know...and what was normal wasn't adequate...wasn't honest. Pick what you want for your family, your life...what's within your control...

You may see relatives' opinions as added conflict, harassment, outside what you want to deal with, if they knew. What if it would highlight exactly what you needed to see, however uncomfortable? What if it's theirs, not yours...and what you glean remains up to you? What if exposure is honesty shining...may hurt from the glare, wince and desire to hide...may also grow from the freedom to live from truth of actions, eh?

Every human on the planet has their boundaries...up to them to take those actions to enforce or not. The more you do, the less it is full of fear, pain and anger...the more it sends signals of peace, security, understanding and ownership. Like trade-ins for great deals.

You're not alone, EO. You're growing and knowing every day. You're here, demonstrating commitment to yourself, your marriage, your family, your life. See and know you are...balance your big picture with all...not just some...not tweaking, fixing...just like assuming...and you're becoming more and more aware of your own assumptions...getting to the subtle ones. Don't step over that your H KNOWS what isn't right. He gets it. He may not be choosing to act from his knowledge...but to react from habit. Old permissions. His own cumulative stuff. Not yours.

You can choose to not know or know he knows...I don't see the value in choosing to believe he doesn't get it. I just don't. Unless he states, "I don't get it. I don't see why acting out my feelings is disrespectful" then I'd choose differently.

You know. That matters. What you know and act from is equal to what he does and does not choose to do. Both are choices. Holding to your own healthy boundaries becomes a habit...doesn't mean we slack...or let up...or let down. Practice through awareness, conscious choice and letting go the outcome.

How's LA for Alanon? Do you feel like you're betraying your old friends and sponsor from back home if you go? What if God has something new for you?

A new question to you, directly from my own life...have you considered saying to your H, "When I lose my perspective, my footing, I want to lean on you to get it back. I want to say permit myself to say, 'I feel weak right now. Lost.'" Does that resonate at all with you, right now?

LA

Yes, balanced. The lives we were living were extraordinarily disrespectful. I feel so far from that, but that's what it was. So you bring it into perspective for me, that it is reasonable to expect that I do need to work hard to continue excavating this.


I do know this, LA, that honesty can only help. Having spent some time reading on InRecovery and GQII, how families react, I just didn't know if this was the time to share this with my already fractured family. When they were enjoying a rare happy event. I wanted to make sense of this myself first.

I'm supposed to be the fixer, the smoother. Not the broken one, causing harm with my inactions. My DJ, that they wouldn't have been able to handle this without causing further harm. That was my projection, not reality.

I know that doesn't square with my code, nor PORH. That I have chose to gaslight my mom, telling her things are okay when she likely can sense that they are not. When I think my sister may have already told her what happened. Deeping the wounds there.

I want to make amends, not sure what to do.



What an awesome perspective, one I'm going to choose! Thanks for sharing!



Wow, LA, you're right. Deepens the injury to realize that he knows and makes some choices differently, but still chooses to harm, as well.



Thanks for the reminder. My boundaries had become habit, not a chore, until H was travelling, and I felt like I was creating separation by enforcing them when we had limited time together. When really, not having them creates alternating enmeshment and separation.



I'm really excited; looking forward to checking it out. There is a place walking distance from me with meetings Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday. I keep in touch with my sponsor, and she also has encouraged me to attend. She has friends from out here who have been, and say there is a lot of healing here.



It does. You help me so much, putting words to emotions. I do want more of a give and take, and he does comethrough sometimes. You told me, "State, don't demonstrate." It's helped me to say, "I want you to be the strong one, today", instead of just going back to bed and leaving it to him.

I have another concern that feels really big to me, but I've been reluctant to bring it up because it's only lead me to more frustration. I have a huge lack of trust. It was a big trigger to me, spending a day in Las Vegas on our way back from New Mexico. H has been there before alone, and last year with his buddy, and I feel in my gut that he's been unfaithful to me. The last time I tried to share that, he was indignant and angry, saying he's never given me reason not to trust. It would be easier at this point I think if he said something did happen, so we could work past it, and I wouldn't feel so crazy.

EO,

I don't see you gaslighting your Mom...you're withholding the truth...so that's lying, not gaslighting.

On the infidelity...share your whys and wherefores in thinking he has cheated on you in Vegas. Your suspicions...and understand getting it out of him isn't real.

Knowing if it's true may be.

There's the drinking...was watching him this time what alerted you, or is it tied to the gambling behavior...something loose, or similar? Let your mind bring up all of it...past and present...and way past, also.

Not discounting your gut...getting the fullness of that feeling...where it comes from...from subtle to overt actions and indications, 'k?

For instance, you already know a lot about infidelity from reading here...how it truly is an IB...so IB's may give your gut a punch...your H has a few of these already.

Sorting, not judging...let us in on your thoughts...since you've been so darn brave already in bringing this up. I wanna support your bravery, your trueness, EO. I see it in a lot that you choose to do...and not do.

LA

Okay, so gaslighting is lying with an intent to make someone nuts? Where I was lying hoping not to make my mom nuts. Thanks, that does make me feel better. I do want to make amends to her; and I think hse'll understan, and maybe even deepen my understanding.

My feeling of suspicion wasn't limited to Vegas, there were other times when he was travelling, too. He turns his cell off at night before he goes to bed to charge it. So it'll charge faster. So I asked for the number at his hotel, so I can call to connect; how we always used to talk every night. But he said he felt controlled and wouldn't say where he was staying. There were a couple of trips like that, where he said he was going to stay one place, but wasn't sure of the name, and then the next day, when I asked why I couldn't reach him, he said I had the name wrong.

There were other times that he didn't answer his cell when he said he was working late, so it's not that he was charging the phone. And he changed the subject when I asked why he didn't answer.

I hear you, that it may well be other IB instead of an affair. I didn't understand about alcoholism back then, so it may have been a bad feeling about IB I had. I am a very intuitive person, like I will know it's him calling before I pick up the phone. Or I will know he's getting sick before he does.

I have had suspicion and bad feelings since D11 was 2. He worked in another town 90 minutes away, and stayed in a hotel there. I went to IC back then, because I was overwhelmed and depressed with a new full time job, young kid to take care of alone, new house, and MiL with a lot of health concerns I took care of. She suggested I start taking a train with D2 up to see H twice a week so they could have bonding time. He was constantly working, so he asked me to bring then D2 to his office, and a coworker told me he saw H passed out in the lobby the night before. H was very mad at the coworker, and told him he shouldn't have told me that.

I was really scared last year, because again H was at a point with his drinking where I'd seen him throwing up. My worst fear was that he'd be by the road throwing up or worse.

One night, years ago, he came home and went straight to the bath, uncharacteristic for him. He wouldn't tell me why, and was mad at me for asking him. That's where a lot of my bad feeling comes from, that he is angry that I ask questions and try to understand. It feels like he's trying to hide something, to keep me from having the information he does.

This weekend in Vegas, I was O&H about my fears, just let me know where you're going, when you'll be back. Again he was okay at first, then mad that I was trying to control him this way. I understand that someone could see that as controlling, but I'm trying to come to a point where I have peace with it. My intent is not to control him, but to understand. To have the information he does.

I triggered too, when I saw salesmen on the street in Vegas wearing shirts, "Girls delivered to your room in 10 minutes." H visited prostitues before we were together, including when he was in LTRs with other women, when he was travelling, and so I don't know if it's in his core value to not do that anymore. He says it is. Outside of his trip with his buddy last year, he's stopped three times there for trips alone while on business to other places.

Also, evasiveness, like if H was going out eith his buddy, and I asked where. I've never gone and told him to come home, or called and told them to send him home, so I don't see a reason to be evasive. Also, three close friends have told me they felt he was screwing around, without any information to back it up.