My sister is stabilizing again. The poor thing, they didn't realize that there were so many ways her body was failing until her vital signs changed so drastically - breathing, heart rate, blood pressure, fever, hormone levels. She has problems she was born with her body doesn't fight infections the way someone else would. I guess she was used to feeling so bad that she didn't notice, either. She really should have been admitted a week ago. I am glad that she is getting the care she needs. I am praying that they can help us know what to look for so it doesn't get this bad again. So she can stay healthy instead of going through this. The poor kid had two IVs running last night. Again, her only first warning signs were pain and malaise.

EO,

Glad your sister is feeling better! I've been reading through some of your thread and it seems like you've had a hard time lately. Thanks for taking time to contribute to my thread when you have your own troubles.

EO, does your sister have any auto-immune disease or other immune-related disorder? I'm on a mailing list you may be interested in, that is for immune-related disorders covering everything from allergic responses and chemical sensitivities to auto-immune disorders. The moderator's name is Cyndi and she has a lot of really great info. The website is
http://www.immuneweb.org/
from there you can read articles, view archived posts, join the mailing list, etc.

SW, you're so welcome, I learn a lot over at your thread.

Jayne, thanks for the link. My sister's condition is adrenal, not auto-immune, but there is good information about that there, too. Her doctors have had more difficulty finding the right amout of hormones to compensate for what her body doesn't produce, without adding too many side-effects. Part of what has helped to stabilize her this morning are large doses of solcortef, if that is something you're familiar with. She looks like she's been inflated, she is so puffy. She keeps feeling her face; it doesn't feel like her face to her.

LA, I finished reading SAA. To be honest, I'm not sure what you were thinking I was going to get from it. Or more likely you probably did not have any expectations going in <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I really got a lot out of the book. It is a great review of the four rules for a successful marriage. And did get me back on focus about becoming an expert negotiator, able to get to the win-win solutions. I get a lot of practice with that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Another thing I took from that was the contrast between the first couple, who'd set themselves up for failure, and the second couple, who'd set themselves up for success.

There were a few things that bothered me, so maybe I didn't "get it" as well as I need to. To be honest, at the end, I didn't understand why Jon was happy even though he'd gotten no apology. And why Sue still had no apology or remorse, even after her needs were being met. Do those kind of progress bars become that extremely irrelevant?

I also didn't understand why Jon trusted Sue at the end. I have relatives that I've reconciled with, who act plenty trustworthy now, but I still would not invest my trust in them. I enjoy sharing my presence with them, and that's plenty enough for me. I always have a backup plan if I ask those folks for something. But maybe it's different for married couples in that they have more opportunity to build trust than folks I see only now and then.

I like that quote with the POJA, "how would you feel if I/we..." That feels so freeing to say, removes my nagging doubts that my H is saying things are okay to do/not do, but secretly building resentment. Is that transferrence or what?! Very different than asking, "can I?" More empowering, by reminding me of my choices. it leaves me feeling good that I am building compatibility through my choices rather than feeling judged that what I suggest is silly or not fun.


My sister's condition, unfortunately, has been up and down. She had been very patient, until today. A side effect of all the cortisol is irritability and agression, but she hadn't felt it or had been able to handle it since Friday. Now's she's really agitated. I pray that she can get well and back to normal life as soon as possible. And that they can give her and my mom a plan to keep things from getting this out of control in the future.

I'm headed over there after work. H has been great with the kids, and I've been helping as much as I can when I'm home. H and I have both been really H&O about how much we appreciate what the other's been doing.

Thank you for not thinking what I would think, EO. LOL. I like to struggle with my own thinking...and you nailed it...wasn't going for specific reference, passage or point. What you get out of it is yours...what zings inside you is yours.

I dunno about Jon and Sue...wasn't my experience, so it felt foreign to me. What I got from that was there is more than one way to experience and recover from infidelity. What I thought their story really showed in the end was the blatant choice they each made...from their own code. What was acceptable to them, not based on what the other did so they would do or not do. Showed the difference from requiring an end to an A and NC...to not also requiring words of remorse, or which words of remorse, or which feelings...the big boundary not played down into the little ones...and maybe that's what was their Achilles' heel, as well, pre-A.

Maybe Sue acted her remorse...in choosing to meet ENs during recovery, to identify and know his ENs...her own acts of love. Same for Jon. Maybe that's how they took the bad guy/good guy out of their marriage. The Blame factor?

Just my conjecture going wild.

In front of you! Oh, my.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I believe Jon trusted himself, so he trusted Sue. He had made the decision to recover...and if Sue chose to have another A, he would divorce. And he trusted his boundary enforcement. Maybe? Hmmm? I know I chose to trust blindly because I liked how it made ME feel...had nada to do with reality. I manipulated my feelings all over the place...so glad Harley was here so I could wake up.

Who knows if Sue's transparency, consistently, over time, because she LOVED being transparent and holding herself to healthy marital boundaries didn't free Jon from his own fears? I dunno. I know that's been my experience...authentic transparency (including being honest to myself) changed everything for me. I LOVE it.

Could you have overlap between unreasonable expectations and trust? Your relatives...you are engaging, having a relationship with them without trusting them to do/be/feel/think a certain way. Sounds respectful to me. Sounds like dropping your expectations and minding your choices freed you to not need to trust/not trust. What do you think?

Do I trust my son to not attack me with a baseball bat? Well, sorta of, if you want to call it trust. Hasn't ever happened, very outside my experience...on the other hand, is he capable? Yes. Does he have a baseball bat? I dunno...we do...somewhere. Do I expect him to? No way. Is it a possibility? Sure. Do I worry about it? No, I choose not to do so.

Building trust is different than building our own expectations. Sorting that out...well...I don't mind taking a lifetime to do so.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

As long as you're along for the ride, EO!

Me, just sorting in front of you.

Great catch on the POJA language...really important. "Can I" is what we asked our parents...did you ever hear this response from one of them..."You know you are capable, but MAY you?" Anyway, I think language furthers our parental experience with our partners...and this would be the child in us asking...in that way.

Although, personally, I tried the "How would you feel if" with my own folks...so I do, "I would like" or "I'm thinking about <blank>. Would you be enthusiastic?"

My DH still shudders at enthusiastic at times...he perceives it as requiring him to feel to a certain level...very old experience which I reinforced for years. When he doesn't perceive it that way, he ponders and gives his first reaction...then checks it. He says "No" automatically sometimes...and says, "That's my automatic no. Lemme think a minute."

If he detects this isn't something he'll resent, and doesn't care about greatly (for the event or act itself), he usually says, "Yeah, I'd like that." When he's enthusiastic, he says, "Great idea!" LOL

or "I really like that idea."

When he's lukewarm, not interested/not adverse, he'll add, "I like seeing you excited about it."

Working it through...no right words or way...just us, in it together.

I accept his "no" though...and sometimes, we don't brainstorm...if it isn't something I'm not interested/not adverse to NOT doing. Sometimes, I'm ambivalent and use POJA to probe him (old ways). He's pretty good at catching me at it and asking if that's what I'm doing. So I ponder. Think a little.

Heehee.

I can get very passionate about some stuff...swept up and act implusively...and he loves that about me and fears that about me. So I've learned to ponder more, not act impulsively, and he's opened up more, and shares passions he discovers...with me. Not perfectly...neither of us...we daily forgive, let go, realign and keep at it...by choice.

Where I love that question, "How do you feel about that" comes when I've related an incident, reported a story. Those were the words I craved because I wasn't asking myself...and now I do...and when he asks, I get this big ol' love deposit...not because I wouldn't have told him over time, anyway...because he wants to really know now. Wants to know and be known. Baby steps.

Love that phrase from his beautiful mouth.

Can you give yourself permission to want silly/fun without feeling immature? Can you acknowledge that your inner child is how you experience things new, feel joy, delight? Not bad or wrong...may be extremely uncomfortable for H...not about you...not a judgment...may certainly be spoken as a judgment...remains about him. You give your own permissions to play...and you believe it's essential...that's me projecting because I believe it's our path to creativity, change and growth...knowing our child from our adult selves. Loving both. Shaming neither.

I felt the part of your post about your sister...I can do pain...I can't do extended pain. The duration kicks my butt, not the intensity. When it's intense, over time, I lose it. I'm working on moderation of both...meaning, I don't do the intense pain in the way that says, "Be tough, it'll be over soon" and lie to myself...I want to learn to feel the pain right then, in the present, and consider reality. Haven't managed this well, but then, I don't get much practice. Duration still kicks my butt...even with moderate to low levels of pain. Longer it lasts, the more I can't handle it. Not acting out on it has been the best I can do so far...reporting it (sharing), well, I do that A LOT; more over time.

Great to know that your H does this...comes through for you in this way, when there's a specific situation, and you can feel these choices as love deposits, going in. You could choose as easily to discount (he'd be scum if he didn't), dismiss (everybody knows illness takes priority) or reject (he's doing it to get on my good side; or he's only faking it this way because he's relieved I'm not at home so much right now).

Way to go...big time. Tough to see our loved ones in pain, see their anger, feel our fear, and our helplessness...that's usually why reality isn't what we consider safe...shows the butt of where our control ends, even when we wish really hard to just this time have it over others...to cure...eliminate the cause...

Understandable. Doesn't sound like to me you're acting out in fantasy at all...very present...sharing...aware...and accepting reality and praying a lot.

Am I close?

LA

Showed the difference from requiring an end to an A and NC...to not also requiring words of remorse, or which words of remorse, or which feelings...the big boundary not played down into the little ones...and maybe that's what was their Achilles' heel, as well, pre-A.

Wow, LA, I think this IS what I needed to get. The way that I've been able to forgive family who haven't apologized, because they became safe to be aroud agin. Chose to do that. Like MiL and SiL. "What-if" I'd refused to let them back into my life until I had an apology for what each said about me behind my back, how each spoke to me, what I would have missed out on! I had judged myself for forgiving SiL. Now I understand how I was able to do that.

And he trusted his boundary enforcement.
Thanks for the reminder. Because he'd gone to Plan B. he was financially supporting Sue, but he had cut her off from cousing him pain otherwise.

LA, your H, was he from the South? Is that a cultural thing? My H also responds with an immediate no, and then I don't do something, and then check again next time it comes up, and he's like, of course, why would that be a problem LOL

Thanks for projecting about the silly/fun. Yesterday, my brother gave me a beautiful letter he wrote to me back on my birthday, remembering about how we had a totalled old car in the front yard, and I would tell my little brothers and sister, who were 2 to 7, want to go in the car? We're going to Disney World! They'd never been, but had seen it on TV, and we'd all climb in the car and pretend we were driving there from Miami, seeing all the cows (are we there yet?), all the orange groves, until we got to Disney World. Then we drove through, and saw Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck. We drove through Space Mountain and the Haunted Mansion, taking turns driving. What a blessing, to be able to remember that, and share that letter with my DDs. He wrote about how H was a brother to them, which he totally was. We spent so much time with together.

Duration still kicks my butt...even with moderate to low levels of pain. Longer it lasts, the more I can't handle it. That's been exactly my sister's experience. Her frustration is in not knowing the cause and the duration. She's going through cardiac tests today, because it's chest pain as well. Ultimate experience of being present. Because there is no future prognosis yet. But she and the family are deeply spiritual, and that does bring comfort, that she's in good hands, and that prayer helps us know that.

eo

On my thread you asked me what else I want to focus on - I thought I'd focus on YOUR thread for a bit! LOL

Its funny to me now, but so much of what you and LA have talked about here has been completely beyond my understanding. I mean I understood the words, but not the meaning a lot of times - if that makes any sense.

But today I GET it. A lot of the things I just read are along the same lines of what is described in the book I'm reading.

Like what LA was saying about the inner child and seeking excitement/joy. And being present.

My IC told me there is a saying "If you have one foot in the past and one foot in the future, then you're [email]p@ssing[/email] on the present."

Crude. But accurate, I thought.

I hope they find a way to alleviate your sister's pain soon. I can imagine how frustrated and helpless she must be feeling.

As usual, nothing of import to say. Just basically letting you know I'm here, like a fly on the wall.

Tama

"I mean I understood the words, but not the meaning a lot of times - if that makes any sense."

Tama, I invite you and anyone else to ask away when you don't understand or even don't agree. Because we don't have to agree by any stretch, but it helps me to undersatnd why we see things differently.

Before I found MB, over the years I've read so many self-help books, but didn't agree with the message, so though they made a noticeable difference for me, I didn't get where I wanted to with the advice. Like Dr. Laura's books, for example, which I read as saying say to act really happy and your H will come around in a day or so, and be the partner you want after that. Having a message like here at MB that I can understand, with the forums so I can reason this stuff out with others, has made the difference for me.

I like your counselor's saying LOL.

Thanks so much for the nice thoughts for my sister. Her vital signs have finally stabilized, and her pain has gotten more manageable.

Tama,

I LOVE your IC's quote...that's just what I've been searching for...and I laughed out loud. Thank you!!! I really needed that.

And I believe when we are really ready (not just supposed to be doing this, or doing this for our own good with resistance), then the concepts behind the words become clearer...they begin to resonate. Nothing bad or wrong...nothing wasted. Takes what it takes. Celebrate what zings you, 'k? Along with who you are...because we already know this stuff...deep down...and there's a bunch crud in the way...was for me...and when I really wanted to change, to know, to not keep experiencing life in the same way, crud vanishes and I GOT it...

Again.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You got it goin' on, Tama...sounds like an honest IC, honest friends on MB and you sharing honestly...

Who could ask for anything more? (Gosh, second time today I've said that...and the other was a coworker surprising me with a fountain soda.)

Heehee.

LA

EO,

Isn't forgiveness marvelous? Doesn't excuse...and doesn't control...which means there are no blanket rules to forgiveness...for you cannot make others own...doesn't mean you darn well don't enforce your own boundaries and own, does it?

Way to go...we begin by looking for the one fix...the one right way...rather than doing the right thing in our own way. Could that be it?

No, DH isn't from the South...he's a Northie. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

He felt really validated with the automatic "no" when he was reading the brain book...I mentioned it on MB a number of times while I was reading it...darn...okay, I googled...

"Change your brain, change your life" by Dr. Amen.

Terrific book for everyone, I think. Anyway, he has a chapter on the automatic no...and I link it to perspective on P/A behaviors...and in it, he shows you how to change your habitual responses...eliminate your "ANTS...automatic negative thoughts)" and stuff that just really thrilled my DH and me, too.

I don't think I finished that book, btw...hmmmm...gotta look for it. So I'm not going for the geographical, or gender...though I think men are more empowered to say "no" a lot more than women...what do you think?

I was thinking you'd read that book, too, EO.

ohmygosh what a great story to share from your childhood, and how you were given it back through his eyes anew...that's AWESOME...and I'm so jealous. When we did that, we sat on the floor and the driver held a plate...if we were really creative, we would make our blanket tent into a car.

You had a REAL one!!!!

LOL

Gotta run...thank you so much for that. Got a smile on my face now.

LA

"doesn't mean you darn well don't enforce your own boundaries and own, does it?"

Exactly. I take a lot of this marriage stuff i learn and apply it outside, at work, in the community, eith my kids, and extended family. It goes both ways, that I can learn how trust and forgiveness work outside my marriage, too.

"rather than doing the right thing in our own way. Could that be it?"
Thanks for this! Helps me with my sister, too. She's giving my mom a lot of stress, becoming reluctant to take her meds, but this is how she's working through it.

Thanks for the book title again! I was searching for it, and gave up, knowing it would come back at the right time LOL. I'm ordering it now.

Yep, we had a real car, a huge light blue Oldsmobile, 4 door, which was a special thing back then, that fit all 6 of us. Come to find out my youngest brother and sister don't remember LOL. But wow, what a way to be present!

eo



Thanks. Truth is I didn't know what to ask. Didn't know whether I agreed or not. Just didn't "get" it. I find it interesting how after I started reading that book, I've noticed a lot of the same info from others, too. I guess its cause I'm open to it, where I wasn't before.



Great news!

Thanks
Tama

LA



Its what I needed too. Great "getting to the point" quote. lol I keep it in mind now, so when I start worrying and going through the "what ifs" or "if onlys". I get a mental pict of standing over that moment, peeing on it. Gets me thinking more about where I am NOW.



Makes sense. I know I've been focused on what I thought I was supposed to do, think or feel, about most things. Guess I'm finally ready to see and face what is instead of what I think is.

A lot is definitely resonating. I'm trying not to feel compelled to sort it all out as fast as its coming at me - for once.

Thanks for your encouragement.
Tama

Tama...

About the supposed to's and the shoulds and shouldn'ts...

I now get those as signals that I'm looking at my life through the outside inward...which lets me off the hook...puts me in the child-viewpoint. If I should be taking better care of myself, that tells my brain I want to do what others say I should...and I'm shouldin' all over myself.

When I state my truth "I want to do this" as I do it...that really retrains my brain...through practice, brain begins to hand you, readily, what you train it to hand you.

Not just language, or easyspeak...and retraining takes time...we're going to fall back into the old routines of shoulds/supposed to's...hearing those as signals from our brain saying, "Are we back to this or you still want new?" is awesome...not failure.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

What a present question for our brains to ask, eh?

Okay to feel the compulsion to sort it all out at once...not okay to act on it. More brain retraining...that's what I heard you say.

Welcome to your new life.

LA

"I find it interesting how after I started reading that book, I've noticed a lot of the same info from others, too. "

Tama, that's so interesting how that happens. I get reassurance from this, that if I don't get something now, that I will get it when it's time to.


My sister's finally home from the hospital. She had several things going wrong at once, which was why it took so long to diagnose. She's going to have to go back once she's had time to rest and recover from the infections to get her tonsils and appendix removed. She also has to go back to get a sleep study done, because it appears she has sleep apnea as well. They tried a CPAP machine for her, which breathes for you as you sleep, and it made a world of difference for her, so she took it home with her to use, too. We are so relieved for her.


"I now get those as signals that I'm looking at my life through the outside inward...

When I state my truth "I want to do this" as I do it...that really retrains my brain"

How cool to be able to see these as signals rather than frustrations!

I am finding it so interesting, too, find the signals in oher's behaviors that are bothering me. To trace it. Is that a signal that my boundaries aren't clear enough? A signal that I do this behavior, too, and I'm ready to look at alternative solutions? Both?

We went to a wedding this weekend, and I saw something I've never seen before. The minister had the bride and groom each pour a different color of sand into a glass bowl, which each represented their lives before marriage. Then he showed us the bowl with the mixed colors, and said, as intertwined as these sands have become, so do their lives as they join in matrimony. What a beautiful visual.

Just wanted to give an update. BTE, if you're here, I was thinking about you a lot earlier this week, how it's okay to feel overwhelmed thinking the kids are talking too much LOL. Instead of feeling bad for thinking that. I looked for my part; I'm not talking very much. Things have settled down with my sister being better, so there's not so much that I need to process with them. So I pulled up that Friends Of Good Conversation article, went back, and started asking them about things we all like. Then it was interesting when they kept talking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

We went for a family walk last night; I can't believe how much our life has changed. The four of us being present, not complaining about the stuff we used to, like the speed the others are going.

And H's drinking isn't causing me the same kind of alarm or concern anymore, because that's not my problem to own. What a relief!

EO - I hear you on the "not my problem to own" statement. I have to keep reminding myself that since I'm not responsible for someone else's actions I'm also not responsible for the results they get. There's so much freedom in not owning an outcome that you don't have any control over.

My next step is finding a way to deal with the fact that even though I don't control my husband's actions, what he does and the results he gets does affect me! How have you managed that piece of the puzzle?

KLD, I think the MB tools like negotiation, sharing your O&H, and examining our beliefs to see the dishonesty of the DJs are the tools to go to first. Because they get us closer to both goals at the same time: more connection with our others/spouse and more healthy ourselves. Separate and Equal go here, too.

But once you've exhausted how far your resourcefuness today with these tools can carry you, there is the loving detachment/progressive boundaries set of tools. The books Boundaries In Marriage by Cloud and Townsend and You Don't Have To Take It Anymore by Stosny describe this in a lot of detail. These go hand in hand with continuing to use your MB tools. Continuing to share your O&H and brainstorming for those win-win solutions. These tools will minimize how your husband's illness affects your serenity. Do you have an example we could brainstorm?

I forgot, the reason I wanted to update to is to say I booked an IC appointment for Tuesday, with a psychiatrist I've been to years ago, who I'm really comfortable being O&H with. I want to get on an appropriate treatment plan. I'm not sure whether I should be on ADs, and whether I am depressed or something else. I'm hoping he'll find that this has all been an appropriate reaction to my circumstances, and that I don't need to be on medication.

I'm also going to ask him if he'd be willing to use the Imago and MB tools with me, or help me find a MC who would use these tools.

Hi ears, I'm glad to hear your sister is doing better. I know that's a relief. I also want to cheer you for being able to "let go" of the responsibility for H's drinking and the outcomes. Good for you! And good for you for setting an appointment for IC.

I need to learn about the progressive boundaries I think. Thanks for describing "next steps".

Sounds like things are going well for you. I wish all good things for you!