Thanks, KLD. I'm kind of suprised that I am feeling this way again, when I've been pretty detached for some time. I am glad to get a shake up this weekend, to remember how much I do want to keep working for a connection, too.

I'm glad you're choosing hope, knowing only right now, you don't have that yet.

We didn't for 17 years...just in the last year have we begun to really doing POJA. In small ways. Really, just this year.

You wouldn't want him to come home if he wasn't enthusiastic...don't forget that part of POJA. Each evening he does, he's choosing...he wants to be there. Get to know that about yourself, 'k?

LA

Being detached is a survival tactic of sorts or that's how I've always viewed it. It's good you're able to not get too deep and forget what your feelings really are. Even if you didn't intentionally or completely come out of the detachment, you allowed something to trigger your feelings and I think that's very good.

"We haven't had much alone time in quite some time. Because H has been lately finding other things to do when I ask to spend time alone with him."

How would he respond if you simply said, "I packed a picnic and we are headed for ______(Fill in destination) for a hike. How does that sound?" Maybe planning the event so that all he has to do is show up will take the pressure off of him when you want to spend time together?

With all you've been going through, and taking care of others and all the worry and stress plus what's going on between you and your H, I'm not surprised that you are feeling all sorts of feelings including both detachment and grief at various times. Be gentle with yourself through this. I'm glad you recognize the hope in tomorrow.

I had started my post with the poster's names bolded, responding individually. But I took that part out, because I feel like we are all on a really similar journey, and the questions I had I'd really love to know how any of you answer them.

I didn't relaize it's only been a year that you all have had a working bi-directional POJA. Does it make your side more difficult, not having those reminders to check your own actions? My H's actions trigger me to check my own intent, clarify where really my boundary is, why something doesn't work for me. Or does it already come natural to you?

I see detachment as a great tool to have, too. It really helps me internalize the "separate and equal" perspective.


"How would he respond if you simply said, "I packed a picnic and we are headed for ______(Fill in destination) for a hike. How does that sound?" Maybe planning the event so that all he has to do is show up will take the pressure off of him when you want to spend time together? "

This has worked really well for me before, taking RC as an act of love I can give. It suprised the heck out of me when H liked what we'd planned so much that he took the kids even when I couldn't be there because I was with my sister. This is definitely a strength I'd like to build on.

H has been really overwhelmed with work lately. But it's really affirming to me to keep planning fun things to do anyway, planning alone or together, that he can join or not.

It's funny how it's easy for things to run smooth on the good days, and more of a challenge on others. So I see a silver lining, that it's really encouraging to have these perspectives even when the stress heat things up.

I've started reading the book that Telly recommended, also by Stosny, about improving a relationship without talking about it. Again, he describes what's underneath these processes, the fear and shame that people encounter in everyday interactions. For a book about not talking, it's given me a ton of things to want to talk with H about LOL. I'd love to ask H if these things are true for him, too. I feel so curious to know what he's thinking, and I'm feeling closer to him before I've even asked him.

"This has worked really well for me before, taking RC as an act of love I can give."

Does this fill your EN for time as well as his need for RC?

"It's funny how it's easy for things to run smooth on the good days, and more of a challenge on others. So I see a silver lining, that it's really encouraging to have these perspectives even when the stress heat things up."

I can relate! I feel like I run to this site (more than I really should) when things are rocky and not as much when things are smooth, lol. So is the way of life, huh?

"For a book about not talking, it's given me a ton of things to want to talk with H about LOL. I'd love to ask H if these things are true for him, too. I feel so curious to know what he's thinking, and I'm feeling closer to him before I've even asked him."

I take it your H doesn't want you to ask him if these things are true for him? And this is because he feels pressured or...? So what does that leave you...trial and error? How would he respond to something like: "honey, how can I show you love/respect today?" "I thought you might appreciate it if I _______ (some idea from the book) today, what do you think?"

It is great that you are feeling closer to him even before you've asked him. To me, this indicates you are doing something right!

EO,

I have lots of reminders to check my own stuff and actions...I haven't lost the fear of screwing every up like I did before.

Each time my DH shares, reminds me to check my own O&H. There's still this bit of reflection...haven't removed all of it...and being on MB, reading, keeps me aware...maybe like a crutch, eh?

None of this comes naturally for me. It's inside out, really, from the way I grew up. I know my choice to believe, have faith, zoom out for the bigger picture, and my intent to hear God's messages everywhere doesn't waiver. Still check them...like a touchstone inside me.

Difference is...I'm my own talisman.

I trigger to stuff on MB...like your use of "detachment"...didn't realize it was such a trigger until yesterday...because of the way it's been expressed in my life...as withdrawal...abandonment. Not really...just felt like it. Loving detachment...that's what I read you as meaning...invested, present and aware...not disassociative...just not enmeshed. Neither extreme.

And I use books to share with DH a lot, too...stimulates my mind...gets it going...and posts here...people here...YOU.

LOL

{{{EO}}}

I wanted to share something from Monday night...caught myself not speaking. Mondays is a day off for DH. He's home when I get home. I'm the one coming through the door, setting down my lunch bag, my purse, my big red travel cup. I'm not sure where to fit in our hello kiss. Especially when I'm running my mouth or listening to his...the timing got away from me.

He'd made a lovely dinner and was serving it up right away. We ate in the kitchen...and I listened, repeated, shared a little bit...mostly appreciation and admiration for the dinner (I love his cooking)...and still, the no hello hug/kiss stayed on my mind.

As we put our dishes in the sink I finally spoke...and asked for my welcome home hug and kiss...and he complied. I went further and said I'd realized that since I focus on that when he comes home, I had an expectation he would, also. Didn't know I put the onus on the one home already.

Know what has happened since? He has been looking me in the eye, kiss/hug...and he ran two brief errands and each time...hello/goodbye...and I was wow'd last night...he was up finishing up a movie before going to work...and he came down as I was coming in the door...and again, looked me in the eye, smiled, held my shoulders and kissed me. Stood there and told me what he was doing...and then ran back up.

I'm wow'd...does that make me pathetic? I didn't feel in the way, demanding or him resenting me...I felt cherished. Just plumb cherished.

Still getting there, EO...just knowing we're doing it together...and not expecting (yeahrightsure...catching those pesky things) to it to always be, or never. Right now, feels like the gift, I believe, acts of love are.

From sharing. We'll get there. We've got a lifetime, I believe. No rush.

LA

"Does this fill your EN for time as well as his need for RC?"
When we do spend the time together, I found it like Harley described, meeting our top ENs at once: RC, Conversation, Affection, FC. And when we don't, I still have fun with the kids.

"I take it your H doesn't want you to ask him if these things are true for him? And this is because he feels pressured or...?"

Right now, he's very under the gun at work. He's working at home, and he feels very under pressure to produce results. So he is uncomfortable spending time away from the laptop. He spends time with the kids, which makes him feel even more behind. There's not much I can do for him, other than try to help him check the formulas/logic when he is having trouble. But since he's better at what he does than I am, if he doesn't get it, then I'm not likely to figure it out either.

But I'm fortunate I can get connection in other places until he's feeling less under the gun. The 180 ideas really help me during these times. The not calling so much.

"I haven't lost the fear of screwing every up like I did before."
LOL. I don't feel this fear very strongly at all anymore. But hearing you say that; I know that's true, there are plenty of reminders. And H will speak up if I step on his toes, too. I'm getting better at hearing him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


"Loving detachment...that's what I read you as meaning...invested, present and aware...not disassociative...just not enmeshed. Neither extreme."

Neither extreme, not enmeshed, and not the 180 to isolation. I get lots of practice with this, not just with H. Controlling and care can feel and look so similar. So can avoidance and letting go/trusting. Checking my intent helps me sort it out.

Thanks so much for sharing about the welcome kiss/hug and the dinner. I wouldn't call that pathetic....I'd call that present and aware.

The kids just started soccer, and with that, we really have to take a look at the schedule. Good timing <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"Right now, he's very under the gun at work. He's working at home, and he feels very under pressure to produce results. So he is uncomfortable spending time away from the laptop."

Does he have much of an EN for DS? How bout A? These are two areas you could really shine while he is plugging away at the computer. Leave a little note on the screen telling him how much you appreciate his hard work and commitment to provide for the family. Clear away the clutter and noise so that he can concentrate. Announce that you are taking the kids out so that he can focus on his work in peace and quiet, because you know it is important and you support him. Have the girls thank him for taking such good care of him. And so on. Perhaps he will be so encouraged by your support that he will spend some time talking with you before bed??? Just a thought.

"Does he have much of an EN for DS? How bout A? These are two areas you could really shine while he is plugging away at the computer. Leave a little note on the screen telling him how much you appreciate his hard work and commitment to provide for the family."

I've been stepping up my DS efforts, which is a win-win, as it reduces his srtess and makes me feel good about what I'm doing.

I do appreciate that he would be willing to work hard if we needed him to. I do appreciate that he takes his commitment to provide for his family seriously. I disagree that he needs to work this hard right now. So since I haven't figured out how to verbalize my appreciation for his work in an honest and encouraging way, I appreciate other things about him, and tell him that. I like that he can figure out difficult problems. I like how he takes time out for the kids even when he's stressed.

I've taken the kids out quite a bit, and he has gotten some good time with them, too. Thanks for the good thoughts!

"I do appreciate that he would be willing to work hard if we needed him to. I do appreciate that he takes his commitment to provide for his family seriously. I disagree that he needs to work this hard right now."

What makes you think he is "over-working" or spending more time than he has to at work? Does he limit his time working or work from sun up to sun down, with a break for the girls?

I ask because, as obvious as this is, I have only recently realized the importance a man places on his work. I have made comments about H's work schedule, not to put him down, but just to say wouldn't it be nice if you were home more or something along those lines, and he gets REALLY upset. I found out this is because he doesn't separate himself from his work. He connects his identity to what he does for a living. When I say something negative about the job, he takes it as though I said something negative about him as a person. I of course explained that I didn't mean any personal offense by my comments, but now that I understand how he feels, I will be very careful about what I say regarding his job.

I really wonder what would happen if you just decided to really support and appreciate his efforts working, even though you would prefer him to spend more time with you. I am guessing that he would be so encouraged that he would start MAKING time for you because he would want to be with you, sharing about his work and other things, because he feels you GET him and know why his work matters so much. I think it could be a win win situation. I don't think this means you have to be dishonest about the fact that you want to spend more time with him. If I were you, I think I'd say something like: "Honey, I am so blessed to have a H who works as hard as you. You are such a good provider and I am so grateful for the sacrifices you make for our family. I sure miss you, but I know that duty calls, so I will take the girls out for a while so that you can get things done without distractions." In that, you would be affirming his desire to succeed at work, stating your desire to be with him, and supporting him by giving him peace and quiet. I suspect that would speak volumes to him and motivate him to take a break when you got back and thank you by spending family time. What do you think?

Wonderin, I am grateful that you are willing to reason this out with me, because this has always been a sticking point with me. Like you said, when I try to reason this out with my husband, his default response is to get highly offended.

I start out with a bias against working overtime because of what I saw with my parents. My dad always worked a lot of overtime, for FS I would assume. Then he had an affair with a coworker, and left us, divorced my mom, and complained about how he and his new wife couldn't live off of their salaries because of the HUGE burden of paying child support. As if I should feel so bad that HE had consequences for his horrible decisions. And he didn't even send us enough to keep us from struggling really badly.

Similarly, my H's overtime has always eroded our family time. I resent it. We're not struggling for cash in my mind. I unbderstand that he is feeling internal pressure to earn more, and I respect that he feels that way.

I do tell him I appreciate the parts that I honestly do. Like I'm glad he's working in town.

We could have grown up in the same house. I was 12 when my dad left; how about you? Sometimes the age affects how/if you recover from it - adolescent girls really suffer when their dads do this and they're old enough to really understand what happened, because they may confuse what he/his OW did with what they're supposed to do.

And I just this morning had a talk with MrCat about how his overworking has resulted in us missing out on 17 years of vacations with our daughter; we've been on maybe 5 all her life, though we could have afforded it, because he couldn't tear himself away from work. Unfortunately, it's taken me this long to be strong enough to bring it up when we've only got two years left with her (she's 17). I finally also realize I should have just made the plans (he refused to even discuss it) and let him come if he wanted to.

Maybe you could find ways to be more creative about your family time, too.

EO, I get so much from your posts and I want to contribute to yours. A lot of the time I just don't think I have anything wise to add. So please don't think I'm ignoring you, honey!

I just had a thought, sorry if you've already addressed this. Is "acts of service" one of your H's love languages? I totally agree that men often identify themselves through their work. If one of his love languages is also "acts of service" then this could intensify it. Or, could it be "words of affirmation" that he seeks and gets at work?

Wow, with your FOO I can see how that would be a sore spot for you. I somehow had the impression his current heavy workload was temporary, but you just now said "my H's overtime has always eroded our family time. I resent it. " That sounds more long-term. Do you guy usually have weekends free? How's he feeling about 15 hours per week? Or is he resenting your group meetings? (You haven't mentioned that in awhile - I really don't want to remind you of past hurts best left alone, so I hope it's ok that I ask!)

Cat, I was 11, the same age as my oldest daughter, so I know what you mean! I repeated some mistakes I saw my parents make, like moving in with my H before we married. And hanging on to boyfriend-girlfriend relationships even when we didn't get along or have similar values. It seemed normal for me not to like the person you're in a relationship with. And the giving to get. Sacrifice was the currency used to earn the right to SD.

I am SO happy that I found this place and new ways to live! For a while after I got here, I was very angry that I didn't pick this up earlier. I have heard the advice here from other places, and thought I was doing better, while meanwhile I was still DJing myself and my H. I needed a zero tolerance policy.

Cat, good for you for bringing your O&H to MrCat about the vacations. What was his response?

I am so happy to hear you are willing to take DD17 on a vacation yourself if H can't swing it to go with you. I don't know how well that would fit with POJA. But clearly not discussing it isn't a better option. One year, we went to Disney, and H worked from the hotel while the girls and I toured the parks. Where there's a will, there's a way, right?

I don't think my problem with the UA/family time is so much about not being creative. Or making it a priority for myself. I still do a LOT with the girls, and with friends, and alone. On my side, it's about my expectations and resentment. Which is why I am glad that I was able to come here for an attitude reassessment. Wonderin, your post got me thinking about how it is legitimate for H to have a FS need that's higher than mine. And valid for him to have a desire to act on that need. All people make sense all the time. And I can look forward to a time that we can negotiate to both get our needs met. Hope, not expectation.

Typing that, I got an idea, what if we thought of a side business that we could do together. I like brainstorming, and the part where you can let ideas go, too LOL. Because I'm not inclined to start a business. Maybe Tama will be a good role model for me how to do that in a sane way <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Jayne, you're so sweet; I don't feel ignored. I figure you know the welcome mat's out there. And I think it's really cool that you started working with LA. I love how she can kick your butt and when she's done you are confident you can accomplish anything. Like a personal trainer who puts your treadmill up to an incline of 10, ignoring when you say you'll pass out if she puts it past 3. And then at the end, you're totally amazed that you could do that.

For H, it's the acts of service. He REALLY wants to get back to California. I set us up unfairly by telling him that I don't want to go back, but I will give it another shot if he gets a secure position out there. So he's wowing his client with the hope that they'll put him at their SoCal subsidiary. He's not the only one tenacious in this house LOL.

I'm not sure how to make amends and undo that situation where I set him up like that. I am so happy to be home; and I don't know how to muster the enthusiasm to want to move out there. But I think it would make him so sad if I said even if he got a great job out there, that I still wouldn't prefer to move. It's not my problem to solve, but I do want to stop contributing to it. I am learning new things everyday, though, and I think with time it will get more clear what my role is there. I have a plan for lots of other things, but no plan there but to wait.

About the work schedule, we did have weekends free for a long time with his last assignment, the one he just got off of last month. I haven't discussed 15 hours with him for some time, but last time, at the counselor's office this summer, he thought it was controlling and needy. And the counselor had never heard of it, and it sounded unrealistic to her, too. That's why down here before we go to MC again I want to find a counselor who supports the MB plan.

H hasn't said in some time that he resents my meetings. Sunday I asked him to watch the kids Wednesday night so I can go, and he said of course, he always watches them Wednesdays, in a nice tone. I think the part that was the problem was when I wanted to go more often.

He brought up last night that he thinks bringing DD11 to the church youth group, where I help out also on Wednesdays, is too much for her now that she's started soccer three times a week. It made me feel so peaceful that he brought something up like that in a calm way, without DJing. And I felt really free to listen and repeat, and to respond without DJing. We even came up with a POJA, that we'll let DD11 decide if it's too much for her. I think I can enjoy and be present in moments like this without building up expectations that tomorrow will be the same way.

EO, you are in FL now? CA is a loooooong ways away. Why does your dh want to move to CA? I'm sure it is in this thread....but I don't have the umphf to go searching for it...?)

ears_open, it sounds like you're making a lot of progress.

Unfortunately, we're not making a lot of progress. These moments are few and far between. After a weekend spent griping about the school district, the governor (for changing the schedule), and the teachers for messing up his plans, I sent him every bit of information that I could put together so he could solve our vacation problem (he had reserved ski time during the week of D17's finals, so she can't go, and I reserved the next week, Christmas week, in Florida), and emailed it all to him on Monday - other weeks/days available that he could choose from.

I also offered the idea - twice - that we keep the 4 days skiing and just the two of us go, so we could have a romantic getaway (would be the first in 12 years), and he did not acknowledge that I had even spoken. He has not brought up the subject, and I am loathe to do so, because any time I bring up a subject he has not responded on, he bites my head off as if I'm accusing him of screwing up and then just ruins whatever we're supposed to be doing. For instance, if I do that, he may just call and cancel both vacations just to prove a point, that I can't nag him into it (I know, I'm assuming; but it IS a pattern). But thanks for asking!

ROFL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Wait. *gulp* This WAS a joke....right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

SW, H wants to move out there for reasons that he can't express LOL. Good thing I have a sense of humor, huh? Long story short, he says he's wanted to move there for years, since he did project assignments out there years ago. He's looked at it seriously every few years, and we've gone on scouting out trips over the years, but just these last two years he's felt that if he didn't do it NOW, he'd always regret it.

We spent the summer there, while he was doing project work there, and in the end we decided to come back. I was able to work remotely out there. He said at the time that he'd just waited too long, and it wasn't how he remembered. DD11 got signed on with a top commercial agency there, and DD6 a smaller one, and both with a children's manager, so that made it harder for H to decide to come back. Once we got back, I found a permanent position locally, but I'm not the primary breadwinner. But now he says that he does want to make it happen.

H and I have family here, but for H that's actually a minus, not a plus. I'd prefer to stay close to family.

CP, thanks for the compliment! Back atcha <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I do feel like the things that I've been learning are jelling together.

"if I do that, he may just call and cancel both vacations just to prove a point, that I can't nag him into it "

You know, CP, we all have our comfort level. Some things are easier to have back up plans for than others! My H says I nag, too, so I'm glad I have this place. Dr. Harley says that sharing O&H is not nagging, it's information. And I repeat that back to H, "I hear you think me sharing information that you don't have about my feelings is nagging." Even when he doesn't hear me, I hear me.

Tama, that was a joke about the business LOL.

I got some information from my IC. He says that according to what he's read in the research, alcoholism isn't defined by volume, but by behaviors, like missing events because of hangovers, and causing a problem with a spouse. I kind of already knew that, but wasn't really ready to accept it before. I'm glad that it hit me at a point that I really feel capable to deal with whatever happens.