Jilly, I like that idea.

BTE, I just remembered, when Stella called her H a skank for being with so many women before her, I triggered on that big time, because my H has been with SOO many women before me. When I read about spouses that pray together, or are each other's first and only, like JM, I do feel regret never having experienced that.

I'll think on that a day or so before I go back to the Villager exercise and put

SKANKY
and
MORALLY BANKRUPT

because there have got to be more respectful words than those <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ears,

ROFL... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

ears, I got your email, you can take it off the thread. I'll respond later.

Cat,

This made me laugh outloud... DSS is turning 14 tomorrow... which means it isn't that far off until he will start to drive... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />. I cannot fathom that boy driving. Oy Vey... I am not ready for this part of the teenage years yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Okay deep breath... I will be 40 in a few months. Hard to believe that... it seems like I was just 30 and DSS was just turning 4. Where does the time go?

Jilly

Hi, y'all, would you please go over and help berkana? She has LH and Stella over there, so I'm really happy. I am pretty sure that she's a really good IRL friend of mine. I'm glad that she came to a place with folks like you all. Her obstacles may look big today, but I don't think there are any obstacles that are too big for someone with you all in their corner!

Ears,

I'll take a look... thanks for the roadmap.

Jilly

Sorry, guys, I spoke to my friend, and she hadn't yet posted. What a small world, that people can have such similar struggles! Good to know that we're not alone. I sent my friend a link to that thread, and hope she checks it out.

Jilly, thanks for sharing this tonight. Have you read love busters? As I remember it, in one chapter, a woman cooks dinner, and then cleans up while trying to control the kids so the husband can watch TV. She's not enthusiastic about this, so she Demands that he help. Dr. harley talks about how even if many days she can handle both, that they need to POJA another solution to prevent this from happening sometimes.

This is how I'm feeling with setting my predetermined enforcements, and then now I'm finding that I expected too much of myself when I thought them through. I'm thinking of leaving more and more often, which goes against my core value. That's my consequnce to deal with, but I think that I can do this by setting the enforcements easier on me than today.

I had been going for a drive as my third enforcement, but tonight, I saw that as enabling, so I came back, and requested that he take the time out since he's the one cursing. He said, but you're angry, and the kids aren't safe with you. He often says stuff like this. I repeated, you say the kids are not safe with me, so get up outta your chair and take them somewhere you think is safe. He was not enthusiastic about that. I stayed, but really, I was thinking, I resent this, where I have to get out of my house on a weekly basis if I want a bit of peace. I'm getting frustrated, too much trial and error again. Like cat said, wishing he'd just go away for good. Again, against my code to think this way, so I caught it and have been trying to focus on what I can do instead.

Jilly, what are your predetermined enforcements? Are they working for you?

I'm going to the IC tomorrow, and I want to talk to him about this yo yo that it feels like, a few days okay, then a few days crappy. I remember that quote about being the thermostat, not the thermometer. I'll probably feel better in the morning, and then feel like things are usually okay here, whereas tonight I feel like things are lousy/angry fairly often.

It doesn't help that it's been like a month and a half now since we've shared SF together. I've been O&H about missing that part of our marriage, and look forward to when we can share that. I don't usually mention this, because it usually doesn't bother me all that much, I can refocus, but everything's kind of bothering me at this moment, KWIM?

I've been asking for smaller gestures of affection, like a kiss or a hug or an "I love you," and sometimes he's receptive, and other times he cringes that I asked for that. I do think that part of this is chemical, and if we got into the habit of being close together, that it would help.

Good thing we are all new everyday!

I wish I could help, but I don't have any good advice. Anyone else? I hope you get a lot of good work done with IC tomorrow.

Ears,

Funny that you should ask me about that right now cause I just had to do a boundary enforcement totally unrelated to my M. An MB enforcement for me. Notify a moderator is an enforcement for me. And I had to do that tonight on another thread. One that I wasn't posting to either.

No, that is one of the few Harley books I have not read. I have read the articles here on it though. I like what Harley said though in your above quote and this makes "my" sense too because I may be able to handle some situations better on some days... have a higher tolerance level. Hadn't thought about POJAing it like that either so that was good to know too.

Okay can you be more specific about under what circumstances you leave the house? You shared that leaving is the third enforcement. What are the first two?

I am not sure if I remember yours right. I thought the first was to respectfully ask him to stop. The second was to leave the room. Then the third was to leave the house.

I can see how that would get old, especially if you are getting to the third enforcement and you are the one who is always the one to leave the house.

Is the choice to have you leave... because if one of you has to leave... in a car, it is safer for you to be behind the wheel of a car.

What happened tonight or the last couple of days. What were the boundary violations?

Do you think that maybe the part that you are feeling where you expected yourself to be the one to leave is where you are findng yourself feeling this is too much to expect... especially if you are having to do it frequently?

Did you see it as enabling because he was acting out, cursing, and then you were the one that was leaving... enabling him to continue with his behavior with you enforcing a consequence for yourself?

What happens when you are angry? Why would he say the kids are not safe with you? I have a hard time believing that your kids are not safe with you. Can you be more specific about why he can be angry and cussing and why you are the one who is not safe for the kids to be around?

And this sounds to me like your frustration level is really high right now about having to leave so often, which would be understandable as to why you might be saying in your head... well I just wish he would go away for good. You know that is just the frustration talking. Can you give yourself permission to accept that that is how you are feeling... your feelings are okay. You are not acting on those feelings, you are just having them. Can you accept that you are a human being... and right now you are being upset.

One~ acknowledge the signals. I do not ask my DH to stop what he is doing. It depends on the situation... if it is just me, one kid, both kids.. etc. Depends on what he is AOing about and whether or not I am able to filter and can work to refocus using I statememts.

Sometimes I will remain in the room, but partially disengage... not fully, start washing the dishes, folding laundry, something tactile because tactile things calm me down. If the kids are involved I may just start speaking directly to the kid or kids. I might model the direction I want to see the conversation going... like speaking calmly, expressing my feelings to my children, I am upset with you because this happened. I felt _________________, when I felt that you did not hold up your end of _____________.

If this doesn't work and the kids are involved then...

Next~ admit that I need a time out. I say something like, I understand that you are really angry or upset or whatever right now. I want to hear what you have to say about it, but I cannot focus on hearing what you are saying right now. Sometimes, just this will cause a shift in him. I don't like to do this when the kids are involved unless we dismiss as a family. If I disengage and he is AOing at the kids, then I feel like I am abandoning them.

If the kids are not involved and it is just DH and I then I have no issue just stating I am willing to talk about this in 30 minutes. Then I leave the room or he does. We don't really have a rule about who leaves the room, as we both have our own sort of preferred space to time out in. I like to go to the master bedroom. DH likes to go to the den... play his computer games. I will watch TV or read a book. I do this sort of a distraction but more as a way to calm myself down.

When the time is up, I will come to where DH is and ask him if he still feels like he wants to try to talk about it some more. Sometimes he will say no. I am okay with that too.

So three~ is to wait until the next day or a couple of days depending on how large the issue is and how much time we each may need to process our own stuff and get more clear on what we really do believe about it.

As much as I do have a hard time when DH AO's he has a hard time when I really break down crying. I used to think he was insensitive. I now see his reaction to when I am like this much the same as my reaction to his AOing. Because he states he cannot hear what I am really saying very well when I am that upset. In a lot of ways it is the same thing, because I can imagine that when I am that upset, crying and unable to express my feelings other than through tears, it is similar to the when I get to the point where I cannot filter him when he is angry.

He isn't being insensitive he is being honest. If I ask to be held he will usually do this for me. And there I times when I am crying because I am angry... and I don't want to be held or comforted then, and he will respect that too.

Since we are able to table, and by doing this, and going to seperate rooms, I have not needed to leave the house in a long time. The kids can also go to their rooms, we can all space out... there is enough room without anyone leaving. I am not saying that I wouldn't leave if I felt that the situation required that.

DH works out at the gym now 6 days a week. He goes right after work and I do think that doing that has done a lot for his stress levels.

DH has SAD... this can be difficult to deal with because often he isn't really depressed about something specific, it is just a seasonal thing. He has also started tanning for this and I do think this helps too. He is really good about taking his vitamins and for the most part he goes to bed at a decent hour and sleeps okay. Not always... some nights he has sleep stuff too.

A lot of time outs happen for us just as a result of running the kids back and forth to practice. DH drops DSS at boxing and I take DD to swimming around 5:45pm. Then we leave to pick them up around 7:15ish. So DH and I have about an hour by the time we get back from dropping the kids to ourselves Monday-Thursday (except on the nights I have a class). This is also our time to share. Because this weekday time is regular and also not open ended... we will each have to leave to pick up a kid... it provides us with a bit of a safety.

We both know that a break is possible, it is scheduled to happen. If things got a bit touchy, usually by the time we have gone to pick up the kids, the 30 minutes by the time everyone is back home, has provided enough of a break for both of us to feel more relaxed.

So this is what we do. These are a predetermined boundaries. It seems to be working and we can and do make minor adjustments as needed.

He still curses sometimes, just not as often, and not as directly... He does not call me names anymore. We both still DJ each other sometimes... and we both amend for that now too.

Thinks are a lot calmer overall.

Is there something specific the last few days that you guys are smacking into? Is this old stuff that you felt was more or less resolved and now it is resurfacing?

What is lousy often? What is angry often? Can you give me some specific examples so I can get a more clear understanding?

Is the choice not to have SF more one sided? You shared that it usually doesn't bother you. Do you feel disconnected from him right now? Is SF a connector for you? Is it more your choice not to have SF, DH choice? A mutual choice? What is the average frequency? I ask because for us it is me that has the lower drive... and this can be really frustrating for DH. Is there an underlying issue right now that is creating a lack of desire in either or you? Are you unsure about why it isn't happening?

And yes, I hear you on everything is bothering you right now. That can feel so overwhelming because it can make you feel like you just want to give up... you don't what to do... it is just too hard so why bother. I know that isn't your core belief but it can be your core feeling right now and that is okay. Not a place you want to dwell for a long time I know that too... share this with your IC tomorrow and see what she or he has to say about it.

This I totally get. It is something I have to work on. I can get in a slump with this... and then it can lead to it becoming a habit and that is not what I really want so I am willing to keep at it.



I really thank God for that Ears. Every day is a new opportunity.

Also what kinds of self care are you doing for yourself lately? Is there something that you really enjoy that you might be able to schedule in for yourself in the next couple of days? How about a pedicure?

Do you like to read fiction?

I am reading a really interesting book that I mentioned on villagers but meant to mention to you and Jayne. It is called The Memory Keeper's Daughter

Hang in there Ears... you have one of the most determined spirits I know.

(((Ears)))

Jilly

Hi Jilly, thanks for your response. I am trying to balance out wanting a quick resolution and wanting a resolution that will strengthen my marriage, so I am giving you my first response now, but will continue to think on it.


These are mine. I would like to be so calm that I could listen and repeat in the moment more, but I had set it up this way because I was not thinking through 4th, 5th, sixth. I was starting at 1 again after a time away, even though I am not always reset after a short time away. So I found my problem, and I know the solution, to use the leaving the room for a short time, leave the room for a longer time, and leave the home for a half an hour for the 4, 5, 6th enforcements, and lower the first 3 to listen and repeat. I believe that I can do this.

H agreed when I asked him to come with me to counseling tonight. I would like to talk about this, progressive boundary enforcement, and I am glad that he is willing to come with me. He also asked me to go to lunch with him today, but for the first time, I'm not enthusiastic, because I'm still raw. I am second-guessing this, I am pushing myself to be ready, because lunch with him is really special, our best time together. And I really value his presence.

No, not at all, it's because I'm the only one that I can control. I can recognize it's getting out of hand now well before it's too the point that it's unsafe for one of us to walk/drive. H recognizes, too, sometimes, and takes a time out at those times. But there are other times where things to him are not to the tim-out level but to me they are.

I left this out not out of shame, but because it's just the same-old, same-old. Specifically, DD11 was selling candy bars as a fundraiser for band, and H wanted me to drive around and look for her since he was making dinner and didn't want her to be late. I asked H if he knew her cell number, so i wouldn't have to go look it up in my phone. He was very angered that I hadn't memorized it, and told me that I needed to do that. That's what a responsible parent would do. To me, that's a DJ. I said, it sounds like you are telling me to do that instead of making a request. Again he said that I needed to do that. That's what a responsible parent would do. Another DJ and SD. I wasn't enthusiastic about driving around looking for her, because she wasn't answering her cell, but I figured that she'd be home soon. H had driven around once before he started dinner. He was really angry at this point, which isn't a violation, but the DJs and SDs were. She came back, and H told me to set the table. I asked DD11 to set the table, and he said no, she can't because she needs to work on her homework until dinner's ready. To me, another SD, because it wasn't a request, he was getting more angry because I hadn't set it.
So at this point, recongizing that I was angry, I drove away, but them came back. I did set the table, and i was resentful about it, frisbee-throwing the plates to their places on the table and what i thought half-comically, half aggressively flipping the forks in the air, then they fell into their places on the table. Not close to the kids' noses or anything. H said that I was throwing dishes and forks at the kids, and was calling the police. Sounded like a DJ to me, and I was in a state where that made me feel like the "right" one, and so strangely I felt better. Feeling a little better, I listened and repeated with my filter, I hear you that you think I am endangering the kids. I believe you should call the police when you think they are in danger. I think you should drive away, right now, to get away from me. He said that the kids wouldn't be safe with me at that point, what with me throwing dishes and silver and all, and I said, so take the kids. Take them now.

In my frustration, I did feel that way last night. But today, it seems like a small price to pay for peace in my home.

I forgot to say that I didn't think that they were unsafe, but I was feeling agressive, and would have done well to leave the house at that point for a little while.

Yes, that does make a lot of sense.


I like how you put this. I don't find yet that I am able to stay put and stay calm if it doesn't stop, right away, even knowing that it's not about me. I think that comes from the resentment I carried from SD'ing myself to be able to handle that for so long already. But that's cool that you can. I hear Alanon long-timers able to do this, too. I accept my shortcoming here today.
Sometimes that works here, too. I think it has to do with that Intimacy/Conflict/Withdrawal cycle and where we are there.
I don't intervene when DD11 is sharing her O&H. If she starts getting upset, I take her for a walk. Her dad is okay with this, it's not going against him, because we all agree that once we're upset, no one's going to be able to negotiate for the moment. Unfortunately, I think this plays into our dance, too, this poke-poke-poke until someone gets mad. Poke-poke-poke until someone's upset and leave the room works for him, too. Reinforces that he's in control.
Wow, that was a big DJ, huh? I think it's getting me where I need to go, though, into identifying the false payoff. Last night, I felt like driving away is giving into this cycle. I felt that it reinforces to him and to the kids that I'm the one with the problem. As if there was a good guy and bad guy. because he does say that, "Oh, there goes mom again." That's where I got so fuming that he said that I was "throwing dishes and silver." Because I have a very differnt idea of what "throwing dishes and silver" means.

I like this one, too. Feels very O&H. I think I can add that, too.

Thanks for sharing this. My H and I more both would escalate into AO instead of crying. Crying is closer to the original emotion, pain, though.
We both are getting better at this, to stop and ask the other for a hug. Maybe 10 percent of the time now. It is very effective if we can think of it.

We get to that point, too, until we find that we're not again. i'm glad that you find the exercise and tanning helping. And the breaking up the schedules. And that you are past the name-calling! And making amends, that's awesome <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
We are both exercising a lot more now, too. I'm sure that it does help stress levels.

I really don't know why this weekend, this week, went this way and other times it doesn't. I see that it would be helpful to have a moere objective idea. In the love busters book, Dr. Harley recommends writing this down. I see how this would be helpful. I will bring it up this evening.

As far as the SF, H finds me very unattractive because of the extra weight. I try to respect this by not initiating. I am working to see this as not about me, and I do better some days than others. I have a low drive, so it doesn't bother me every day.

My self-care is pretty good, I think. I am exercising and taking time to do things that I enjoy. Thanks for the hugs! (((Jilly)))

eo



I don't know if this will be helpful or not, but I wanted to give you my "flip side" perspective.

In similar circumstances, where I was concerned about one or more of our girls, I have made SDs and DJs toward R. Instead of admitting to myself how concerned I was or giving myself permission to BE concerned (been accused of being a paranoid and over protective mother by my X) and doing what would make me feel better - calling or looking myself to use your example - I would turn it around on R. I think I was looking for reassurance or validation that he saw my concern as "legit" by asking him to check on them. If I didn't feel his response was reassuring or validating, then I became defensive and turned it around on him by accusing him of not caring enough.

I don't know if this was your H's process or not. But I intrepreted the possibility through my filter. Whether or not it is his process, as I'm learning myself, it doesn't justify the SD or DJ behavior. I just thought it might help you in some way to hear from someone who's behaved as your H did.

I wish I had something to offer in the way of advice. In this instance, my H could probably be more helpful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

((((eo)))))

Tama

I agree that it may have been his fear for her (I was afraid just hearing of her walking alone!) making him stress out on you. I've read that before. But he still needs to learn not to do it. My first thought was to mentally add up the things he did in the span of 30 minutes and then say, 'guess what? in the last 30 minutes, these are the things I've heard: X, Y, and Z (list them). What would YOU have felt if I had done that many DJs to you, all in the span of 30 minutes? Does it make sense that I'm feeling irritable right now?' If he says no, then say 'I'm sorry you feel that way. But I will still try not to do it to you, out of respect for your feelings.' Then let him stew on what he's just done.

Thanks, Tama. I totally get how invalidating it is when something's a big concern to one person and the other person isn't willing to help with it. I do agree that it's important to memorize a child's cell number, since the whole reason that I agreed to the cell phone to begin with was that it would help assure her safety. And once he told me what it was, then I did realize that I knew the number, but I'd been thrown off by my reactivity to his tone.

But that said, the end result is that everyday issues escalate into big love busters and a volatile environment. Yes, I can isolate and get away, but I think that we are at the point where we can work on a plan to minimize these incidents and their escalation.

We don't send DD11 out alone anymore, as there was a neighbor on our block arrested for public indecency just a month ago. She was with two other girls, but I didn't know their cell numbers. One of the girls is our sitter, so I'm going to ask her for her number for next time.

I do like what you said about the empathy, though. When I say something like that, he says, "well, I had to do that because you...." but I do feel much better for speaking up for myself, for hearing my O&H out loud.

Ears,

I just wanted to let you know that I did read your posts today, and that I am limited with my time today so I wanted to share with you that I may not be able to respond back today. Not cause I am not thinking of you (((Ears))) because I am.

And I don't want to rush my response to you... because you matter to me... so I am sharing that I have a time limitation today.

I am putting a post reminder on these couple of posts that I am going to respond to on your thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I am digging that post reminder icon. Sheesh I wish I would have explored that a long time ago. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I hope your IC appt. went well and I am glad to hear that your DH agreed to go with you.

Can you forgive yourself about not feeling enthusiastic about the going to lunch? Do you have an expectation for yourself to get over something quickly?

I have to go now, both kids are coming down with something again, and DH is really having some job related stress/blues right now so I need to be extra present for them.

Hang in there.
Jilly

The IC appointment went amazing! The C is a professor at a university down here, and gave us a lecture amd a handout on conflict resolution. It used different words, but touched on AOs, SDs, DJs, and boundaries. H really connected with him too. I feel so good that H really understood and agreed with all these things, and we'll have a common vocabulary to use <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I did go to lunch, after all. I drug my feet and got there 10 minutes late <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> But I made amends and H forgave me for that one.

Thanks, jilly, for finding that reminder feature. Don't worry, what we don't resolve today may well resurface again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> But I did feel really heard, and feel like I got a lot of resolution today.

Ears,

I am so happy to hear that your counselling session went so well.

It will be nice to have a common vocabulary to draw from too.

And if DH felt good about going, maybe you could invite him back for a couple more sessions especially since he liked the therapist.

Doing the happy dance for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jilly