The reason I say leave money out of it, is cause visitation seems to be stressing that whole family. FH has been stressed about some issues, and seems to want contact to end. The father says yes, if he doesn't have to pay child support. If he is expected to pay child support then he will exercise his legal right to see that child. Seems pretty simple to me. Adopt her and the problem goes away. FH doesn't ever have to worry about the step mom cutting hair or piercing ears, ever again.

It's not like Pops doesn't love this child. He does. So what is the issue??? Money. Leave money out of it and think from there. If money is the only reason for not adopting when the father has all but agreed to it, then the best thing to do would be to accept that hair will be cut on fathers time and possibly ears pierced, etc. Maybe Pops and FH don't agree with pierced ears at a young age, but how do their beliefs over-ride the father and his wife? That is the problem. The parents of this child OW and XMM along with their spouses have different opinons and views. And who is stuck in the middle? Grace. If the father had the ears pierced and the mother was upset about it then what? Who is right here? Is it right for FH and Pops to call all the shots and take the child support, but then cry foul when the father and his wife do things with and for the child? Actually, nobody is really wrong if you think about it. It's just that everyone is getting hurt and upset cause of it all.

To me this is a textbook case of why contact does not work. Look at the damage to so many people here. Life goes by to fast to live like this, for anyone.


I also have to agree with ColdayinJuly. FH has to come to terms that the XMM is the father of that child. He can, at any given time, bring this all to court and ask for and possibly get more time with Grace. He is the father. They can't ask for child support and then be mad when they have their visation with her. Cutting hair, while I as any normal mother would be upset, has to be looked at from a legal stand point. That child was in the care of her father and stepmother. They had the childs hair cut, as parental partners in this, they too have some rights. Maybe they didn't like long hair????? Maybe it was offensive to them??? It doesn't matter. The father has just as much right to make decisions about Grace as the mother does. She chose a daycare, he cut her hair, neither consulted the other. Aren't they both wrong? Or are they both right? He could even push and fight for more time, etc. OR Pops could adopt Grace. The XMM and his wife are out of their lives and peace will find it's way to their lives.

As for CLO, of course we protected our finances from leaving our family. Our children come first. If there were legal means that protected us, we took it. Nothing wrong with that at all. The child support was paid, on time and never late. What is wrong with that?

Thunderstorm, but FH is the one who was upset about the haircut, as if the father had no right. Yet she went and picked out a school without consulting him. Can't have it both ways.

The XMM has stated that if they don't want him to bother them, then adopt Grace and stop Child Support. How much you want to bet he gets bolder and goes for more time. All he has to do is say he wants sole custody and suddenly child welfare is all over the place. Interviewing here and there. Checking this and that. Suddenly it will be FH and Pops under the microscope. Are they in a position to handle that kind of scrutiny? If she is still in a depressed state, this could really harm them as a family.

I say adopt Grace with love or learn to live with the XMM and his wife as co-parents. If that woman is cutting hair and talking pierced ears, things are going to grow from there. But, one can't have it both ways. No laywer in his right mind would tell some man to sign off his parental rights, but still pay. I think it will show them how much you hate him in her life, but that you want the money. It will paint FH/Pops in a bad light. As if child support is more important then anything.

Guess what I was saying got taken the wrong way, not sure exactly how to word what I was trying to say but oh well...

But about the haircut your right she is mad. I pondered it for a bit, and came up with thinking this. If WW and OM were together and had this child say as man and wife, would of the F tooken her down to get her cut?? I cant see it. Maybe they did cut her hair cause it was offensive to him, or was it out of spite cause she choose a school without asking him, and knowing the M liked long hair (which obviously she did since she had it), cut it to get back at her? Who knows what was going thru there mind.

But everyone is right and I do believe that with this many parents in the girls life, and he is paying support and being in the girls life that they ALL have to agree and on decsion for the girl. And if they cant then they have to find a happy medium. Should of he cut her hair NO, should of she decided on the school without at least talking to him NO. To many parents and to much tug of war for this child to grow up in. Like you Lynn why I say NC is good.

It is not the first time POP have mentioned that the OM has mentioned giving up his rights, I say for POP to adopt this child and give her a safe and happy home.

So what if the mother cut the girl's hair w/o consulting father...is she wrong???? Does she have MORE rights to child than MM. No, but some women think they do, what happens here is Father realizes the mother doesn't think he has certain rights to the child and it is frustrating. It is frustrating for someone to tell you to PAY, but then treat you like you're the babysitter. Yeah, I bet he has considered walking away, it seems that it would make OW happier and we all know she has the power to make this easire...or harder. Perhaps instead of all the conflict about not doing the right thing MM thinks it would be just easier to walk away than to constantly have his position and his rights to his child be put under a microscope. Can he really win?? Nah...he's the bad guy, needs to step up financially and take OW lead as to how to care for HIS child. It's not fun to say the least.

Pops, are you ok?

ember i am just fine thank you. i don't get to be on the comp during the day so it is either early morning when i have time which is rare since i get all my kids off to school feed grace and take her to daycare.

so for that question lynn the answer is a resounding YES. i do everything with oc that i do and did with com. she is the same in my eyes and heart.

lynn,,,, so nice to see that you still have that same hard line spirit. the forever champion of the bw's. you wouldn't be you without it.

now let's get a couple of things out of the way.

haircut----- to ME should other man have cut hair? it didn't matter except he cut it as a get back and that is wrong. if he truely liked shorter hair then he had the right to cut it. but he actually loves long hair as fh has long, thick, wavey hair and he loved it. no one should use a child (ANY child) as a means to get at an adult period. and i think that we all can see eye to eye on that.

daycare------- the reality is that trying to get 4 adults that do not communicate to agree on something would be next to impossible. soooooo fh and i looked for daycare. we found one that was in a direct line from his work to his house so that when he picks her up it is covenient for him also. it is also convenient for me to drop off (easy freeway accessability) and fh to pick up. she could have choose one that was close to her work so she could drop off and pick up and it would have been about 10 miles one way out of om's route when he had pick up. also it had to be one that i could drop off grace early at since sometimes i leave rather early in the morning. if you have shopped daycare recently. prices have soared. this one was almost exactly the same price as the last babysitter. maybe $15 more a week. Ohh! let's go back to court so we can get his percentage of the $65 a month difference. after all it is about MONEY. soooooo all things considered he had nothing to be bitching about except that stupid [censored] whining macho crap of "hey i'm the father". have each and everyone of you consulted your h's on everything that you ever did for your kids? NO. did your h run out and cut your kids hair because you didn't ask him if they could go to see "that" movie? after all he's the man of the house. most likely not. it's just macho crap.

cs-------- plain and simple it is om's responsibility. period. and i don't care whether he wanted to be involved or not. that's bulsh!t and you all know it. he doesn't want to be involved because he didn't want another child (which in most cases NIETHER did the ow) but he sure wanted to eat his cake when he had the chance.

quite frankly i don't care if om pays cs until he dies or grace turns 18. i would rather see him die first but that's just me. he can come around and visit for whatever the court will award him. my relationship with grace is not contingent on me adopting her. it hasn't been so far and it will not be in the future.

om wants out of payments, fh wants him out of her life, and i view this whole money thing as business. IT'S HIS responsibility. if one of your sons goes out and gets a ons prego. well he sure as ****** doesn't want to marry her but he sure as ****** IS RESPONSIBLE for cs. so what is the difference? because one or both of the parties was married to someone else? the whole idea of the lump sum was to ease his total financial responsibility while at the same time give me something to invest to plan for grace's college (HIS responsibility not mine)(i have 4 more of my own that i have to worry about, remember?).

if you and your h have say -- 3 kids together and then your wonderful guy goes out and has another with a ons. well now like it or not your h has, count em 4. planned or not, wanted or not i don't give a darn. he has 4. and thusly he owes each and everyone of them equally. if you hide your assets in the guile of protecting your (com) own 3, you are in reality stealing from your h's 4th child. like it or not that is the cold, hard truth.

now for those that may not have been here or don't remember. fh didn't want cs. that is something that i wanted for us to be able to move forward in OUR marriage.
so for the record it isn't her wanting the "paycheck" that some of you have alluded to.

Pops:

For the record I don't have personal experience with this kind of situation, but I do ofcourse have an opinion...I 100% agree with you that the CS is the OM financial responsibility, and he should not ever be "unburdened" of this. He played, and he should have to pay. He owes it to his daughter and NOONE has a right to take that support away from her.

However, if you ultimateley want him out of you and your wife's life (and Grace's life), you'll have to in the end probably have to bear his financial responsibility to get this.

He is likely to offer you a way "out" as long as it eases his $$$$ burden. Sad, but true....if it were me (and I realize that it is not), I'd take any deal and do what it takes to legally kick his A$$ out of her life forever (if that is what he wants)....YOU mentioned in a previous post that you wanted Child Support from him because you felt it would help you and FH move forward in your marrriage, this was despite her objections. Do you still agree with that decision?

If you are not willing (or able) to do this, then you have no choice but to work with him in accomodating his needs, wants and desires in raising his and your WW's daughter. I realize the "win-win" situation that JL speaks of above, but in this case I fear the OM will never agree to a situation that is not hugely favorable to him. Seems like that is his "MO".

It sucks, and no doubt you are feeling angry and unsettled about all of this...but, in the end, you decided to take your wife back and reconcile, you decided to make the OM honor his committment (which he should have done anyway) and pay CS and in effect allow him much easier access to his innate rights in raising her...so YOU have to live with the choices you made.

I know, it is not fair, but life is not fair. In the end, you have to live with YOUR choices. If you think about it like this, hopefully you will feel that you have had some "power" and "say so" in this whole ordeal. You (all of us actually) are 100% responsible for our lives and our choices in life.

Best wishes

Lem

Edited after realizing I did not have the exact facts of ths situation (I still may be wrong...so feel free to discard everything I said..ok with me).

Folks,

You all need to look at Pops signature line and note the ages. Next you need to understand that Pops has had medical problems already. Next you need to realize that 14 years from now neither Pops or FH may be around. They would be negligent as parents to NOT make sure Grace has some security. OM will pay and is paying. The only question is how much. He owes Grace that support. If Pops adopts, he does NOT owe Grace anything and there is no reason to suspect he and his W would step up.

Being somewhat older than Pops and having been to far too many funerals, I think it would be foolish on their part IF they love Grace to not see if she can have some financial security and also make it worth OM's while to step back.

This really can be a win-win, and it has nothing to do with love, unless they leave her destitute. Does this make sense?

This is not about buying a child. It is not about haircuts per se'. It is about OM not wanting to pay and trying to irrated Pops and particularly FH so that he can get out of this. It is a competition that is NOT healthy for her as Pops has pointed out.

Before everyone gets all emotional about this, Graces' future needs to be considered and protected as well as possible. That is how I look at it anyway. I think Pops has the right idea, and I think if this can be worked out, it would be best for ALL parties concerned.

Just a few thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

oh yeah i forgot to mention this is om's weekend and mothers day weekend to boot. fh had to inform om that according to court docs he is to return oc at 10 on sunday. i quess for all those fathers rights advocates out there that means grace is in for another haircut. maybe leave it about 1-1/2 inches on top with a number 4 razor cut on the sides.

Well, everything above is 100% correct, but ofcourse, ***some*** so called "Christian" hypocrites will rationalize the "stealing" you mention above all in the name of keeping their children supported <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Hypocrisy at it's finest.

Some circular thinking on the topice - from the POV of an OC.

I would only advocate a "payoff" if that money goes into a fund earmarked for Grace's college education. But then, maybe not.

My reasoning is that you have to look at the bigger picture - Grace, herself.

She does not deserve to be abused by OM's contempt for his daughter and his contempt for you, Pops. She also doesn't deserve to have this "pay off" thrown in her face by OM's wife or children once she is grown - it will come back to her that you had to be paid off to love her - it will be twisted. Count on it.

If Grace sees the bigger picture - that you were looking after her welfare - that you and your wife love all of your children and wanted to insure that she was taken care of while being protected from a less than loving situation, then those twisted knives that will come at her will not be able to break her heart.

Think long term here Pops, before you take action on anything. If you adopt her, love her as your own, and make sure that everything you do sends her that message consistently and congruently.


***edit***

I put myself through college - if Grace is brought up with clear Christian values, she would rather do that than accept OM's money for her care.

Any payoff will only hurt your relationship with her long term. If you don't care about that - only revenge, then don't adopt her. If you care, consider long and hard about any payoff - because it will come back to her eventually, and tarnish your relationship with her, and her memories of you. It will reflect on you more than it will reflect on him, because though he paid you off so that he didn't need to be bothered with her anymore, you required and accepted the payoff in order to adopt her.

She will doubt your love.

agreed.

kayla,,,, that is one thing that i have given much thought to already. i have said that i don't have to adopt the child to continue to have a loving and thriving relationship. i have actually thought that it would probably be better to leave things the way they are because of the ramifications in 10 - 15 yrs with the stories being reversed. if i just went on loving grace and allowing the system to continue (cs & visit) i could i a sense be a hero (and i am in no way trying to be one, just a loving dad) to grace for accepting her even thru this difficult situation.
i do keep a diary of what happens and copies of some of these discussions to show down the road where my thoughts were. i did it with my oldest not knowing how vital it would become when he was grown.

Yes Pop - you don't have to adopt her. However, she's being manipulated and abused in the status quo.

If you love her, adopt her and set the OM free to be whatever he will be. It will be a liberating experience for your marriage and your family to end this.

kayla,,,,,,,,,,, this is an interesting situation in that no matter what i do it can end up biting me in the rear end with the exception of just letting things continue as they are. let me explain.

if i continue the way things are ie. om pays cs and takes his visitation. the only negative thing that can happen is that grace will eventually understand her exact heritage and paossibly her attitude can turn to "your not my father so i don't have to listen to you".

but since i love her for her there is a small percentage that will be her attitude. but then again you never know what teenagers are thinking.

now if i just drop cs and adopt her. if you remember om lives close and with the way the world is today, adopted kids search out their bio parents all the time. what is to stop her from being curious and doing that when she reaches her teens. remember that the bio father is quatamalan and there is no mistaking that grace is of mixed blood.

now we go down the road 12, 13 15 yrs and she looks up her father. he tells her that i adopted her so that he couldn't be part of her life (and you know that will be the story from him). so now what is the effect on the relationship between grace and me? grace and her mother? after all mom went along with me on this one.

third scenerio is that om makes a lump sum payment and i adopt grace. now we have the same scene as above only with the money involved. the money has been invested and maybe only maxs out at around say 75K. i actually think i can do better then that. at least she has money for an education or to get herself started in life (business, home, etc)

now i have seven kids not counting grace. the oldest (32) didn't go to college but has worked his way up in a corp to a regional management position. not bad unless something happens and he has to try and match his income without the educational paperwork to back up his experience.

my dd (25) has made some bad choices in her life and being single with 2 kids is finding it hard to make ends meet with only a hs diploma. actually if fh and i didn't take her and the kids in she would most likely be in a shelter.

her brother (24) had a great job for his age. but 2 yrs ago found out the hard way how corporations work and again with only a hs education is finding it much more difficult in the world. he is going to college now but living on his own with bills and work has had his eyes opened rather abruptly.

i have one graduating hs this yr. a soph and a fresh in hs. i also have a 5th grader. i don't have the money to just put any of them through college without loans, grants and scholarships. and i can tell you that scholarships and grants are very hard to come by. we are refi'ing the house to try and help out the senior.

so that is why i am trying to at least plan ahead for one of the children the good Lord has placed in my care.

i thank you for your viewpoint especially coming from the oc position. but i hope that you can see that this is not something i am considering for a "payoff". i have thought on this from all possible angles and as i said above any can be twisted to make me look like the bad guy. i will make the offer to the om soon. and i will tell you right now i expect him to turn it down. he will only see me as a money grabbing, pissed off, revenge getting bh.

like i said i don't see one dime of graces cs. it goes directly to daycare. yet om and his lovely w have more times then i can count accused me of buying a new truck, a boat and various other material things with THEIR money.

i know it's not "their" money, it's GRACE'S.

1. Father pays child support, with visataion, basically, the status quo. You are worried that Grace will say "well your not my father, so I don't have to listen to you". Truth is, you are not her father, however, she does live in your house and therefore your rules apply.

2. You adopt, and then she searches him out and he tells her that you adopted her so he couldn't be part of her life? Ah, you would tell her the truth. You adopted her cause you loved her. Afterall, you can't adopt her without his permission. That would not be an issue.

3. Why should this man pay anything if you adopt her? You can't have it both ways. You are asking for support for a child you adopted. It makes no difference what the educational/professional status of your own children are. Why should he pay for her if you adopt her? If you love her adopt her, full responsibility and all. If you want the child support, then forget about adopting.

Pops, I don't think you want to rile this man and his wife up. It seems like they have visitation and they know it bugs you and FH. They have taken libertys to push their rights as co parents. If you ask for him to sign off of his parental rights so you can adopt, but still want money? You are going to be starting a fight that you may not want to be in. He has told you that if you adopt her he will leave you alone, but as long as he pays, he will exercise his visitation rights. No way is this man going let you have it all your own way. Money, child and no visitation? He will probably fight back and hard. They will want 50% time with his daughter, thus LOWERING the child support, and causing more stress to FH and therefore your household. Not only that, they could ask for custody also.

My advice would be to either adopt her outright, no strings or money attached, or accept this man as her father and the visitaion that goes with it.

Take it from me pops I think this was the post I mentioned in it, that I too was raised by another man. When I became a adult I too searched out my real father, and yes I heard the same thing that basically that you are worried about, but on my own I decided what was the right and the wrong and I never once regretted the decision my mother made about me. I saw my bio father for the person he really was and it made me glad that I was raised the way I was.

Even if my bio dad turned out to be a real good guy that at the time he thought he was doing the best for me, it would of not changed my mind about my dad, I would of just loved them both for what they did for me.

thunderstorm,

I agree with you. She is going to love Pops, no doubt. He has been there since day one. Even with the visatation with her father and stepmom, she is still going to love him. Just as she will love FH. She is going to love her dad and stepmom too.

I can see what Pops wants. He wants peace in his house. Nothing wrong with that.

Any man can make a baby, it takes a real man to be a father.
Pops is just that; a real father to Grace. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I consider myself a Christian, and it is my obligation to raise my child and to look out for my child. I bring in the most money into the relationship...I had assets prior to marriage and upon marriage shared those assets freely with my H...I will not share them with anyone else. Should a woman lose the money gained in a relationship, because her H had a ONS or LTR, nope. Should she lose her family home because her H was stupid and didn't keep it in his pants, nope, and noone should. I believe the hypocricy is in thinking anyone would.

The OW's obligation is to her child, the W's obligation is to her family...her H's obligation is to me and all the children. Now unfortunately for the OW, some W's can make or break the H's assets...and that is what I would do if faced with that dilemma. However, because my H and I are still together, he wouldn't suffer much, and me and mine won't suffer at all. I would suggest the OW get on the ball and do the same for her family. No free rides from me, I don't care who you are or who'se child you are, as long as your not mine. I take care of mine, with or without my H, my suggestion is for the OW to start thinking the same way.