SS:

I think so. As you know, I loved Simak's novels. He must have been a wonderful person in real life.



One of the reasons I may not have sounded "firmer" with her in the reply email was partly as weaver suggested - I want 2 reward her for her honesty in writing that email. I understand the "fear" of asking me that in person - email can seem safer (and has always allowed me 2 compose myself better).

Obviously, I don't want 2 reward her by saying "by all means, go ahead!", but in truth, she's going 2 do what she wants, particularly if I tell her she can't!

At this late point in time, I'd like her 2 be able 2 know where I stand, and then let her make her choices - sooner, rather than later.

I'm ready 2 move forward with her, or on by myself now.

-ol' 2long

I think I understand about the firmness in the email. I think you did really well there.

If I recall, one of the problems is that she often doesn't want to talk about it, and refuses to answer you when you ask questions.

It's hard to make progress that way.

You'll need time to think. A timeline will help?

SS

Notice that she didn't answer me about the counseling?

I've gotten pretty good at reading between the lines (even if there's only one of them), because I've had 2.

It's a valuable talent for BSs 2 learn post-dday, I think. Because the BS' and the WS' conflict avoider makes open, safe communication pretty nearly impossible, the BS "needs" some handle 2 help them figure out what's going on in the WS' head (or where they are in the process). But there's a big difference between objectively inferring what's probably going on, and imagining what might be going on - which might include a lot of maliscious things that aren't going on (and thus leading 2ward drama and away from reason).

I've been able 2 infer that my W at the very least had a lot of withdrawing 2 do, because we haven't been THAT close (she hasn't said ILY in over 3 years). Really, not much improvement has happened since our last heated discussion in February (I think), where she told me she'd had contact with RM after he married last fall. Now, of course, this request suggests 2 me that she's resisting starting withdrawal with all her might, so the process STILL has years 2 go, assuming she ever starts. It's certainly possible that Appy's suspiscion is right, but I have no proof that they've had additional contact, and it doesn't affect my resolve if they have (and I'm not interested in getting sucked in2 that drama again).



Help me 2 stay optimistic about this development, if you can.

-ol' 2long

2long, if that's what she gets for Mother's Day...

What do you get for Father's Day?

GC

gc:

Funny you should ask that.

This week, before I got her email, I thought about suggesting that she could have her "friendship" for a Mother's Day present if I could file for DV for a Father's Day present.

Of course, it could sound mean-spirited.

But truthfully, if resumed contact is more important 2 my W than reconciliation, then DV is more important 2 me than reconciliation.

I would wish her well, maybe even offer some advice about her OOSP project, but I've got 15 years of mediocrity 2 make up for, so I don't see me spending summer vacations at OOSP anymore.

-ol' 2long

[color:"red"] Help me 2 stay optimistic about this development, if you can.
[/color]

what da hayul???

ME manage YOUR emotions???

nope

if that's the requirement for posting to you ... I must kindly decline

Pep

And the reason I thought about that was because of what she said at the awards banquet, about the "friend" who suggested the name for her OOSP project.

She could have said "former friend" or "acquaintence", because the other people at the table don't know their history, and she didn't mention his name...

...that is an example of my making an objective inference of what's going on based on the little snippets of info I do get from her. The "friend" comment was directed at me. She was asking me her question then, in the only way she knew how 2 get partway around her conflict avoider.



Folks, she doesn't know the drill. She's reacted angrily 2 anybody telling her what the drill is for years. Somewhere in there, still, is the vestige of the woman I married.

That's what I'm trying 2 appeal 2 here. Pretty difficult, maybe insurmountable obstacle, this conflict avoidance stuff, huh? And I don't mean my CA, I mean hers, which is hers and is kept inside so deeply that even SHE isn't aware of its hold on her.

-ol' 2long

You misunders2d, Pep. Or better stated, I wasn't clear.

I want 2 remain objective and compassionate, whatever I feel I have 2 do...

...just in case it matters this time.

-ol' 2long

Folks:

It's been a very rough week here. Wish I could have "scheduled" this news at a better time, but we all know that's not possible.

stuff happens when it does.

Wellness,
-ol' 2long

I have only a half-humorous suggestion, like Graycloud, for Father's Day.

She sells her OOSP. Done. Over. No contract required ever again.

But then...I've been thinking OOSP was out-of-state-property from a couple of years ago reading your thread...might not work...if it's her work, huh? Then she quits as a gift to you...and to herself. Do they have awards banquets for OOSP owners? 'Cuz, I could have been nominated, ya know...for an Arkansax property...until we sold it last year.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Trusting her is only half the trust...you don't trust RM, can't trust RM, which means you trust her in all other regards but RM.

You did great in your response...sorry about the side-step on counseling...or rather, a non-response.

LA

...and why it does

Hi LA:

"She sells her OOSP. Done. Over. No contract required ever again."

It was never required for her OOSP. That came available around the time we had the fire at our house (1 month after 9/11, 3 months before d-day). It's got a "site" on it that my W has always been interested in investigating. I suggested she buy it with her inheritance money after her grandmother passed away. She obviously conferred with RM about it at the time, and long after. She had an idea for a name for it, but RM suggested one that uses her first name for initials. I didn't know it was him until about a year ago. I'd suggest she change it, but we've got NC 2 deal with first.

"But then...I've been thinking OOSP was out-of-state-property from a couple of years ago reading your thread...might not work...if it's her work, huh? Then she quits as a gift to you...and to herself. Do they have awards banquets for OOSP owners?"

No, the award was for funds for equipment so she could take her field class there next month. She's had volunteers go the past 2ple years, but this is the first year it's in the course catalog for credit.

She doesn't realize - or doesn't want 2 admit - that she doesn't NEED RM "professional help" for any of this. She doesn't really even need my help (well, she might), though I've been happy 2 help her and watch her develop as a professor (I advised she apply for the job in Feb, 2002, less than a month after d-day, and I always helped her update her resume and write cover letters).

She quit the job where she hired RM as a consultant, back in July 2003. The 2nd A started after she hired him in 2000. He'd moved 2 states away after the first A ended sometime in 1995. The 1st A started over 15 years ago when they were office mates in grad school.

All things being equal, the track record for renewed contact is not good for them!

I won't go there again. That's not an angry statement, that's a calm, compassionate, but sad statement.

-ol' 2long

sundog:

Sorry for not answering you sooner. Hopefully the above summary will help some.

I've posted so many times and so many threads since Feb 2002 as 2long and Qfwfq, that I'm not sure where 2 point you for my story. Maybe others would know better?

-ol' 2long

Hi 2l

I think as long as you re true to YOUR boundaries, you should do whatever works for you.

What is unacceptable for one BS is acceptable for another.

You have tolerated that which many wouldn't for many years now 2L, and clearly you must have been getting somthing you need from yoru M that makes the investment and toleration worthwhile, right ?

If allowing contact softens relations between you and makes you happy, do what you have to.

MB only works ultimately if you are prepared to give up your marriage if conditions for NC are not met. If NC is honestly not a killer for you , then your happiness or at least contentment are th emost important things, not adherence to some template which may not work for you.

I write because I spent time making myself miserable comparing my situation to an aggreation of people ho posted to me's situational needs.

That was wrong, If it feels OK for you it IT Ok for you.

All blessings mate.

"just a pool of bubbles and tears "

... which means, "I will continue to put a higher value on my feeeeeliiinngs than the safety of our m and YOUR feeeliinnnggss, no matter how it hurts you, no matter how much you object. Who I am ~ is someone who can hurt you over and over and over and over and over again. It's who I AM!"

Miss Melody just asked this of another poster: "Have you considered going in 2 counseling 2 find out why you would tolerate such abuse for years on end?"

- Dru

2long,

The only optimistic thing I could see in this email of hers was that she was asking for your approval to see him. To me this is optimistic. Granted she doesn't "get" it, and may never...however she is about to get that you will not budge on this boundary of yours. This could also be optimistic.

The place where I see trouble is that she does not think you will stand by your boundary, so you are going to be forced all the way to divorce before she truly gets that you are not playing anymore.

And then I fear you will be faced with another problem, that of moving on when your wife doesn't want to let you go.

Remember the BS is often the biggest threat to the marriage after an affair because their love bank has all but dried up by the time the WS gets that the BS is done with their shannagins, as well as with them.

That is what you will be faced with if she doesn't get it before that happens, I think.

In fact why don't you send her an email stating exactly where you are, head and heart wise as well as what your fear is now going forward, and that your love bank is nearing drought level.

Be honest, be clear and as loving as possible. But let her know that you are nearing the end in your ability to stay married to her.

Bob:

contact doesn't work for me.

I've tolerated as much as I have for as long as I have because I've felt that the length of the A and the length of our M warranted the extra effort.

Allowing contact may soften things for my W, but it won't improve our marriage - of that I'm certain. It may even soften the future, but it will never improve the trust between us, or increase the closeness between us. The barrier will forever be there.

Another thing I've thought about a lot lately is: would I be willing 2 sacrifice my career (and I get 2 do a lot of fun stuff!) for my M and family? What if I had 2 choose 2 give up one or the other? Given that choice, I'd be willing 2 quit this business.

Would my W? She's said a number of times that her field is her first priority - even ahead of her family's happiness. But her taker has been in charge of her decision processor for the past 15 years, so she has 2 rank things this way. But there have been recent signs that her thinking is changing in that area. Recently, she sent a preliminary application for a PhD program on your side of the pond. She got a reply that essentially asked for a stronger response - it wasn't a rejection, per se. It was rather encouraging, I thought. She's inclined not 2 try again, but I'm encouraging her 2 do so. Her reticence doesn't seem so much 2 be due 2 giving up as she's realizing that she's getting 2 do the things she wants 2 do without the PhD (she has an MS).

...but I wonder if RM applied there as well. Yuck, if so. (he didn't finish his PhD where they had their first A - I think BECAUSE they had the A).

No worries, though. I'll do what I think is right for me and my family. Won't be all that dissimilar, in the long run, from MB guidelines, though.

NC with RM is a must, but only if we stay M'd.

-ol' 2long

SICK. Beyond SICK. I'm serious. 15 YEARS of SICK.

"NC with RM is a must, but only if we stay M'd."

Redundant, don't you think?

aaaaaand, there has been intermittant, at least, contact all along anyway.

This is the proverbial rock and a hard place 2.

check ILUL, too.