weaver:

Like with Pep, I really mean the optimisim 2 apply 2 my remaining hope for a better fu2re.

I have 2 have hope for a better fu2re. I've been kicking and screaming, resisting the possible fu2re that doesn't have my W in it, but I definitely recognize that's a non-trivial possibility for me.

-ol' 2long

I read something else this week that struck me..

NPR via Aphelion: HOPE IS NOT A METHOD

15 YEARS of HOPE? With no end in sight.....

Life is whatever we make of it. The hard part is deciding what we want that life to look like.

For me it was a very big epiphany when I realized that I could make it look like whatever I wanted, but I may have to leave others behind to do so. (maybe it's outworn ideas or a lifetime of CA for others)

The next epiphany was that not only would I have to leave others behind, but that I should and actually had a responsibility to.

And that in so doing, I was doing the best possible thing for all concerned, even those left behind.

I won't be leaving a spouse but I will be leaving a town full of friends, co-workers and an alcoholic sister.

Your future is optimistic 2long, you won't let it be anything but, not now, not after 15 years of mediocrocy (I think that is how you keep putting it, and I don't mean just in your marriage).

Somehow I just don't think mediocre will cut it for you any longer...with or without your wife.

2long

Your W has refused all these years to recommit to your marrige and take NC with ratmeat seriously.

You have not, at this instance, set NC as a personal boundary for remaining in your marriage.

I am a great believer in the motif :" if you do what you always did, you'll get what you always got".

So as you aren't changing anything major in your behaviour and your W is now confident enough in her assumption that she can get away with anything , she is now asking you for permission to contact RM, are you just HOPING she might 'see the light' and change ?

Seriously 2long, any process or machine is perfectly configured to achieve the results it gets.

Hope for a better life is fine, but are you changing anything to indicate a better life ?

2long,

Every line of thinking I try on this leads to the same conclusion, pardner.

GC

Dru:

Well, it's really only been 4 1/2 years of hope since d-day.

Before that, I was clueless what was wrong with our marriage.

It's amazing, looking back. All the signs we read about now are there. My W even had an in-my-face EA with a different coworker about 24 years ago, though neither of us had heard of an EA at the time. We nearly split up then, but the OM got bored and chased someone else.

I've learned a lot since d-day. None of it would I trade for mediocrity again, even if I'm blissfully ignorant (but I can't imagine that now, either).

Like my new sigline, it 2k me a long time 2 see the blessing in the troubles I've been through in the past few years.

If the blessing is still incomplete, requiring an end 2 my M in order 2 fully embrace that other way of life?... I need 2 figure that out soon.

-ol' 2long

Bob and gc, thanks for your posts. I'm listening and thinking, really.

I posted this in response 2 something Appy said 2 me on ILUL:

"It is precisely because there's a non-zero possibility that my W's request is due 2 withdrawal pains that I remain a smidgen hopeful - even goosebumpy - about current events. I sure hope I can find out which it is. If she's been in contact and this is the best she can do at showing consideration for my feelings (or maybe she's just realized that even2ally the truth will always come out, and she's trying 2 head off another argument in this strange, quasi-honest manner), then I'd like 2 know so I can work 2ward an amicable, happy separation. Like SC has said, our relationship would now be completed. But if she's really asking because she's hurting from the withdrawal, I'd really like 2 know that 2, so I can help her through it."

I don't think that's wishful thinking either, really. I'm not putting much stock in my "non-zero possibility" because of the historic record, and I'm not hanging my hopes on the possibility that this request is withdrawal-induced. His2ry has shown, more often than not, that it more likely indicates contact has already renewed.

Shouldn't I try 2 determine which, though?

-ol' 2long

Sorry I wasn't around earlier.

She needs a brain transplant.

Yep, for her, a HUGE step forward. She's finally asking permission - and providing fair warning - to be totally unreasonable.

I say take her up on the warning. File.

Sorry, Pal.

WAT

I have to go to bed, 2l, its almost 1 am here.

But I must say this - it is ENTIRELY your w's responsibility to convince you of her commitment to you and your M and her care for you right now. She should be trying her best to help you trust her again, not arrogantly asking for permission to break NC IMO.

All you need to do is decide if the level she is showing you is enough for you to stay married.

Right now that is quark-sized pieces of commitment, yet you are 'goosebumpy' over it.

" a brick has come crashing through my ghetto window. Is this a sign that someone is building me the house of my dreams, or another vandal attack? "

Hope should be informed 2L. I just don;t see how yours is.

But as I said before, only YOU know what you will accept and what your reponse will be.

All blessings mate, whether you want them or not <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

bob:

I like your brick metaphor!

WAT and all:

I can feel it.


This is so sad. She was such a wonderful young mother once.

-ol' 2long

Well, it's about 5pm here.

Gonna go home now!

...and you know? I feel no fear.

-ol' 2long

Okay, so...

She was honest with me with her last reply when she said she didn't know what 2 say.

I didn't either, so we haven't talked about it.

But, throughout the evening, my sensors were set with the gain at max. My antennae were fully unfurled. My kirlian vision was fully calibrated and 2ned...

I honestly think I gave her a lot 2 think about. I don't know for certain whether her 2uestion indicates contact has continued or she's trying 2 get permission for a li'l ol' fix 2 ease withdrawal.

Doesn't matter.

What does matter is our familial goals of getting our house 2gether, helping our DD and her H buy their first house, and yes, helping my W with her preparations for her field class.

She doesn't need RM's help with anything, and I think she knows I know she doesn't. I'm sure she's disappointed that I didn't cave in and okay her li'l ol' fix, but she's probably also surprised that I wasn't cold 2 her 2night.

I can find no reason within me 2 be so. And I can think of nothing I could lose (particularly, that I haven't already "lost" or never really had and needed 2 come 2 that realization), by being kind 2 her.

Kind but firm.

-ol' 2long

WS: "You asked me what I would want for mothers day...
What I would like Is for our relationshipe to be
secure enough for you to really be able to trust me
to be who I am, which means, talk to and work with who
I need to regardless of past troubles... I know this
is a lot to ask but it is really hard for me to have
to worry about where I go and what info I need to get
things I need done for OOSP.. often I find the one
person I am not to have contact with would be the most
helpful...Do you think we will ever get to this place?"

If I were 2L: Thanks for telling me what you'd like. Unfortunately it doesn't match what our family needs. See as long as you think I must meet you in your WS land....we got a problem. As for your worrying, the sooner you stop being a WS, the sooner you can stop worrying.

As for me, I'd like to get the mother of my children a real gift. Let me know when you find her. I do want to show her how much I love her. Do you know where she is?

2L.

Howz that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

2long have you ever asked the questions (repsectfully) to make sure your W knows what she is at ?

Such as :

"Do you understand why I consider it highly disrespectful and knowingly hurtful to me for you to remain in contact with the man you had an affair with behind my back for many years ?"

"IF so, can you tell me how YOU would feel I I asked your permission to do something that was knowingly belittling and hurtful to you ?"

"If our situations were reversed, how would you feel about the request you just made me ?".

I found these kinds of questions to be VERY effective in ensuring Squid faced the justification of my perception of our situation not just HER view of it all.
Squd insited on overnight stay karate events for a while after d-day you may remember. When i pointed out they were knowingky hurtful to me she got agressive and told me "I'd neve trust her again anyway so there was no pointher not doing what she wanted anyway".

Gently, without patronsing her I turned it around so she had to consider how she woud feel if our situations were reversed. Dave Carder gave me that Idea from Torn asunder. Worked really well.

I was thinking about your sit and other sits 2long. I think it is always clear, potential consequnces that compel people to change behaviours.

What is the perceived consequence of your W not keeping NC and working on your marriage ?

There is no credible likelihood of you divorcing her, so that leaves her guilty conscience at knowingly hurting you. She's evidently been quite comfortable with that for years.

Are you willing to change the consequnces so as to impact her decision process 2long ?

Just a thought, friend.

2,

You know as well as I that your W will have contact with RM if she really wants to do it. You have absolutely no control over that fact. I don’t think that any BS can manipulate/guide/(insert the PC word here) the WS into NC if the WS really doesn’t wish to be there, maybe for a while . . ., but certainly not for good. As we have seen in kiwi’s case, NC will not hold if the WS doesn’t wish it.

If NC is a deal breaker for you, then you must be prepared to divorce. The problem you will have is knowing if she is in contact with him at all. A phone call from the office . . . an “innocent” email asking about his health, or help with a project. . . perhaps a message passed through friends. There is no end to the possible routes of communication if someone wants contact. I do wonder though what itch your wife has that only RM seems to be able to scratch? It must be quite an emotional fix to risk her settled life with you for. Could any conversation really be worth that?

Having personally boundaries are fine and sound, as you have full control over what you do. Creating boundaries for others is messy. The other person must be compliant to your wishes. In my experience, my setting boundary for other’s behavior doesn’t seem to do much good. I can say I won’t continue to be married to you if you keep doing XXXXX, but if I do so, I better have retained a good lawyer because a boundary like that will probably only get me divorced. It is almost like a “don’t think of elephants” kind of thing if you know what I mean . . .

Your situation is extremely difficult. Geez, RM has been in your marriage for . . . what . . . two decades? Somehow, after all this time and all the mess, I just don’t see him riding slowly into the sunset.

I do think it was awfully [email]b@llsy[/email] of her to ask you if it was alright to contact him again. I think it is quite telling that she even thought that you would consider it being something that you would be O.K. with. I really don’t think that she gets it . . . and I don’t think that she will. She wants this man in her life . . . still.

All:

I was deeply moved by still forever hers' post here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#3013132

By all means, I do recognize the very important differences in our si2ations. My W is only starting withdrawal and she isn't on board with MB methods.

I'm hoping that SC will come here and post what he said 2 me last night on ILUL. - another success story, but not with reconciliation.

-ol' 2long

Orchid:

I really like your suggestions, but I'll probably modify them 2 suit my style more.

I think this is early withdrawal, folks. I have no illusions that it will be linear. Probably a step function.

Early withdrawal? Meaning, I have years more of this and recovery 2 look forward 2. Now, though, I'm not frightened by that prospect.

-ol' 2long

* deleted unnecesary deflation. *

Bob:

"Such as :

"Do you understand why I consider it highly disrespectful and knowingly hurtful to me for you to remain in contact with the man you had an affair with behind my back for many years ?""

Yes, many times. Ineffectively while she has been fighting withdrawal.

""IF so, can you tell me how YOU would feel I I asked your permission to do something that was knowingly belittling and hurtful to you ?"

"If our situations were reversed, how would you feel about the request you just made me ?"."

I've done this 2, but not recently. Her response was always "you should go out and find someone." Followed by my response, about 3 years ago: "Okay, I will." Which ended those conversations permanently.

"I found these kinds of questions to be VERY effective in ensuring Squid faced the justification of my perception of our situation not just HER view of it all.
Squd insited on overnight stay karate events for a while after d-day you may remember. When i pointed out they were knowingky hurtful to me she got agressive and told me "I'd neve trust her again anyway so there was no pointher not doing what she wanted anyway"."

My W continued 2 work with RM for a year and a half after d-day, though thankfully had no face2face contact during that time (not that the email and phone contact was any less hurtful). She did quit her job, though, but claims it was for other reasons.

"I was thinking about your sit and other sits 2long. I think it is always clear, potential consequnces that compel people to change behaviours."

As you know, I don't disagree. And I can only plant seeds for her 2 nur2re if she chooses (by thinking about them). I can't make her face the consequences, I can only make her aware of them.

"What is the perceived consequence of your W not keeping NC and working on your marriage ?"

Ah, "perceived." I've certainly laid them out pretty plainly. So long as she chooses not 2 hear the message, there's little I can do, though. I think she's starting 2 hear some of it, though.

"There is no credible likelihood of you divorcing her, so that leaves her guilty conscience at knowingly hurting you. She's evidently been quite comfortable with that for years."

I'm not sure that's always been the case. She's poked her head out of the fog from time 2 time, and is doing so again, I believe. These days, I'm not feeling so hurt as sorry for her predicament. I've got a lot of family things 2 do, most of which we're doing very well 2gether at this time.

"Are you willing to change the consequnces so as to impact her decision process 2long ?"

I'm willing 2 make my own healthy choices. If those lead 2 filing, then that would be an example of a change in consequences that I can make for myself that would "impact" her decisions, I suppose. But I won't make frontal attacks on her decision process. That's her responsibility, if she'll take it.

-ol' 2long

Say what? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />