UVA

"You know as well as I that your W will have contact with RM if she really wants to do it. You have absolutely no control over that fact. I don’t think that any BS can manipulate/guide/(insert the PC word here) the WS into NC if the WS really doesn’t wish to be there, maybe for a while . . ., but certainly not for good. As we have seen in kiwi’s case, NC will not hold if the WS doesn’t wish it."

Oh yes, very much so. I want my W 2 WANT NC on her own. If you knew her stubborness and spiteful his2ry, you'd understand why I've taken the tack that I have. She's very much compartmentalized herself all these years. On the one hand, she's been very selfish and secretive with her affair. But on the other hand, she remained a very loving and outgoing mother. I want 2 appeal 2 the latter.

"If NC is a deal breaker for you, then you must be prepared to divorce. The problem you will have is knowing if she is in contact with him at all. A phone call from the office . . . an “innocent” email asking about his health, or help with a project. . . perhaps a message passed through friends. There is no end to the possible routes of communication if someone wants contact. I do wonder though what itch your wife has that only RM seems to be able to scratch? It must be quite an emotional fix to risk her settled life with you for. Could any conversation really be worth that?"

This is the puzzle. It's impossible for me 2 imagine it's worth the risk. I'm prepared for DV, but I still think there's a chance she'll wake up.

"Having personally boundaries are fine and sound, as you have full control over what you do. Creating boundaries for others is messy. The other person must be compliant to your wishes. In my experience, my setting boundary for other’s behavior doesn’t seem to do much good. I can say I won’t continue to be married to you if you keep doing XXXXX, but if I do so, I better have retained a good lawyer because a boundary like that will probably only get me divorced. It is almost like a “don’t think of elephants” kind of thing if you know what I mean . . ."

You understand my sitch.

"Your situation is extremely difficult. Geez, RM has been in your marriage for . . . what . . . two decades? Somehow, after all this time and all the mess, I just don’t see him riding slowly into the sunset."

I don't either. But I don't really care which way he goes so long as it's away from my W. What SHE does is important, of course.

"I do think it was awfully [email]b@llsy[/email] of her to ask you if it was alright to contact him again. I think it is quite telling that she even thought that you would consider it being something that you would be O.K. with. I really don’t think that she gets it . . . and I don’t think that she will. She wants this man in her life . . . still. [/quote]"

Perhaps.

-ol' 2long

Well, I won't repeat my recommendation. You know it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If you choose to roll with this, I'll certainly still be your friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

After the end of my world - loss of my son followed by the loss of my marriage and, hence, my family - I found there was a new world waiting for me. So I'm a bit biased. I know what my experience has brought. It's better than I ever imagined.

WAT

WAT:

I'm sure you know that I can glimpse that wide open new world on the other side of this. And while it might look like I'm not following the advice in my own sigline: "... it would be a blessing should we be forced to undergo some catastrophic event that would cause us to change our thinking and to seek another way of life..." ...I think I am.

It's remaining receptive 2 what that "other way of life" might be that I'm seeking that's hardest from the trenches.

-ol' 2long

...and thank you for being my friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

Hi,

When I read your WW's request for Mother's Day the first thought that popped into my head was how selfish she is. Selfish because again she is placing her own skewed needs before you or your marriage. Selfish for making a request without regard for how you would feel about it. Selfish because she MUST have an inkling that it would bother you, yet she asked anyway. And selfish because she doesn't mind hurting you, as long as her needs are met.

I am not writing this as a means to bash, just pointing out what I saw in her post. If she truly wanted to have an enjoyable Mother's Day, it would more about your joint venture to have children together and something that would enrich your marriage. It is perfectly okay for her to ask for something that is for her and her alone, but not something that is detrimental to your marriage.

I think you response was very good, to the point and honest and you can't beat that.

Interesting, 2long, if you go back and view your original request. What would she like for Mother's Day?

She could have said: a diamond tiara; a trip to Rome; dinner at a fine restaurant with the family; a gift certificate for abebooks; or "I have everything I want with you, my home, my kids. What can I do for YOU?"

Instead, she used your simple request to kick open a wound.

She turned something that was designed to feed HER taker, into something hurtful.

That says it all.

Let me add the clincher: this was PREMEDITATED.

This wasn't a tossed-off comment when she couldn't resist throwing a nasty zinger. It was an emailed response. She had time to consider what she wrote, and the effect it would have on 2long. She had time to decide how to respond to a kind and loving gesture.

And she decided, once again, to put herself first.

AMM:

Correct.

-ol' 2long

((((2long)))) Just saw this and wanted to say... I'm so sorry...

My only suggestion is to re-read star*fish's post on fear here.

Ohhhhh twolong -

Have the best weekend you possibly can.

See you later.

Do something fun - let me know what it is/was.

SS

2long my freind ....

In 2 years, I finished my MA degree in clinical psych - 05/07/2006.
In 2 years, I fall in love & got married to my wife (you remember Lady Elina <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) - 04/29/2006.

I know you love your wife but how many more years 2long would miss the chances to enjoy happy life ?.

You have done your best; I agree w/ WAT ... FILE.

-rh-

SS:

I will, whether my W has it with me or no.

RH:

HI! Long time, no hear!

I am thinking about this. Carefully.

-ol' 2long

Have you seek it ? ... WAT did ... I did ... I think you need to use gravitational force that keept you orbiting around her so that you could go to Mars.

-rh-

2LONG

If your wife can not even respect that fact that RM has a new wife, and I'm sure that his 2nd wife will not appreciate that the woman that broke up his first marriage is still in contact with him or would like to reestablish the "friendship" that did derailed one family and wrecked yours for so long, why in the world would you think that she can respect yours?

The way I read her email is that yes, she would love to contact him and she is just testing the waters to see how deep your orrs are in the water.

Motherday is to celebrate the sacrifices that Mothers do for their famlies, not for your wife to get incontact with the man that she slept with during your marriage.

I know that you did not want any bashing post to her email, but please read the bottom of this post please, know that I mean no disrespect to you, but your wife knows that in the end she will end up talking to him.





I FOUND THIS ON ANOTHER WED SITE
**********************************************************

"The Sociopath Next Door" by Martha Stout, PhD

This book outlines Sociopathy - otherwise known as Antisocial Personality Disorder - and the ways to identify sociopaths.

Sociopaths literally lack the ability to feel compassion and empathy. It is the lack of a conscience, a state of guiltlessness and remorselessness. The sociopath is motivated only by personal gain or loss. They refrain from crime to avoid incarceration and lack of their own freedom, not because of any concern about others.

Page 7: "And sociopaths are noted especially for their shallowness of emotion, the hollow and transient nature of any affectionate feelings they may claim to have, a certain breathtaking callousness. They have no trace of empathy and no genuine interest in bonding emotionally with a mate. Once the surface charm has scraped off, their marriages are loveless, one-sided, and almost always short-term. If a marriage partner has any value to the sociopath, it is because the partner is viewed as a possession, one that the sociopath may feel angry to lose, but never sad or accountable."

2L,

My friend, I have been reading along. I don't really know what to tell you. I wish I had sage advice for you. I think I will repeat Pepperband's famous question to a poster here sometime ago.

"What would you do if you had no fear?"

I could see this answer going both ways in your case, but I think you and only you can provide the right bias to the answer so that it will be obvious to you what needs to be done.

I am sorry to sound so cryptic, but I think the answer to this is within you already.

JL

PS: Are you going to be in Baltimore in a few weeks?

redhat:

LOL! Love your metaphor!

Swan's:

I agree with your assessment, though I don't think my W is a sociopath. Just a run-of-the-mill FWW in withdrawal and not liking it. Now don't get me wrong - that's plenty "bad enough", and it looks like sociopathy in many ways.

I went 2 the Mortarman sitchrep thread a while ago, and note that Mrs MM appears 2 be having 2nd thoughts about her sitch. MM can afford 2 be patient and let her do what she'll do. He's detached from her drama. So can I, because so have I from my W's drama.

Still, Mars awaits!
-ol' 2long

It is your choice, you could have been there many times over ... :-P .

When r u visiting SFBay Area ? ... let me know.

-rh-

Hey guys!
IMHO, it is pointless to try to divine the true meaning of this (if it means there's contact already or soon might be, if it means she's feeling withdrawal and wants permission, or if she really needs his input for work) I think the bottom line is she is not ready at this time to commit to NC, and that also probably means she does not yet realize just how insidious this contact has been and will be to the M. In other words, she thinks this is something which has not affected your R or your M as much as you have made it out to.
In any case, it really boils down to one thing: do you wish to continue working on this R and to stay in this M even if contact continues or not?
That is the decision to make; NOT how you're going to get her to understand and break contact forever. That is clearly not going to happen at this time.
If, as we've all seen, you have managed to live under these conditions and have managed to make your life good, then by all means give her more time and see what happens. If, on the other hand, you are no longer willing to live like this, then tell her so and be prepared to do what it takes to remove yourself from this R.
There are 2 possible scenarios to staying, and there are risks to each (deduced from MY experience): 1. if you remain and allow contact, it may mean she NEVER gets the chance to see the damage this has done and there will never be a resolution. Or 2, she may yet see it at some point in her own time and way and you may recover.
I will never know if D might have one day seen it if I'd stayed. I know she saw it nearly 4 years after I left.

Hi SC!

It does really boil down 2 that, doesn't it? And the short answer is that I *have* been able 2 work on my half of the marriage (well, not the M, but my life - my self-improvement exercise of grand proportions) for 4.5 years now, with contact continuing (but not with frequent in-person contact, like for many here).

Obviously, I don't like having 2 live like this, but I do have enough of my own interests 2 occupy me if I'm not feeling my needs being met in some area.

We're increasingly less intimate physically with time these days, and maybe that's a measure that the candle is burning low or the LB$ is running dry, I don't know. At the same time, we're sometimes more playful with one another than we've been in a very long time - maybe why she asked if our marriage was secure enough 2 resume her friendship.

Your 2-scenarios point is very well-taken, 2. It's so true, 2. If I leave I may never know whether my W might "get it" on her own with time. If I stay, she might not ever get it.

The only real damage 2 me, staying, is that I'm not able 2 start a new relationship anytime soon. But I haven't thought about doing that much at all - again, I can think of a lot of ways 2 distract me if I need 2 distract myself.

I still think this will take her a long time. As you said, she's not ready 2 WANT NC on her own at this time. And I need her 2 want it, not for her 2 fake it 2 appease me.

I still don't know for sure what I'll do about this, but I'll figure it out one of these days.

-ol' 2long

Hello Redhat!

Long time no see! I'm hoping to move back to the Bay Area soon. I am actively interviewing/applying for jobs now. Daughter will be going to university (at UC-Santa Cruz) this fall.

I'm soooooo ready for this! I sooooo want a new life!

Happy to hear you remarried! Hope your daughters are doing well.

End of threadjack!