LC:

"Was the reason you didn't want to go to the classes because she was still communicating with RM?"

I never vocalized it at the time, but yes. Not much I tried was more than a unilateral waste of time and money while she was still in contact with RM. At THAT time, he was still working for her, and would be for more than another year.

"If so, then why not explain to her that one reason you didn't want to go to the classes was because you felt that her communicating with RM was a huge barrier to communications between you?"

I like this. I'm thinking about ways 2 make it more about my feelings and less judgmental (though it's certainly a valid judgment).


"I think that, since she is indicating that she might be willing to work on things, you should consider going...if she will also go."

But she was talking about going 2 IC at Kaiser. And I was coaching with Cerri at the time she made that comment. My W still doesn't like it that I would work with a coach rather than a therapist. But this gets back 2 the whole time between when we stopped MCing about 4 years ago now, and when I realized about a year ago that ICing focused on marital recovery was a waste of time until she committed 2 NC and recovery. I'd sure resume MC if she would 2, or resume IC if she would 2, but I don't think she was suggesting that. More likely she was rehashing and blame shifting past hurts, like Susan alluded above.


"I'd reply, 'Yes, the damage is deep after dealing, alone, with your affair and and insistence on maintaining contact with your affair partner, despite my pain over your doing so, for 15 years. However, the damage is not so deep that that it cannot be repaired with your help and commitment to loving only me and rebuilding our marriage to one that could be amazingly wonderful."

Something along those lines, with more "I feel" statements, I think.


"What hurts me is your desire to maintain contact with him, even if it is only through email."

Exactly! Notice that she mentions only the last time she was intimate with him (close contact), and then the last time she saw him (on the field trip 2 years ago, with my son along!). She's seen him 2wice (as far as I know), since d-day. 2th times with others around, so no alone time. But 2th times were clearly contrived. She didn't need 2 see him 3 years ago, just rationalized a work-related meeting at his former place of employment. She didn't need 2 see him on the field trip 2 years ago, as it wasn't even her field trip - she went along 2 assist. Sure, they might have added his workplace 2 the field trip, but she could have; a) not gotten out of the car for that stop, or b) made the arrangments for someone else 2 show the s2dents around. ...and it really pissed me off that she introduced my son 2 him (my son still doesn't know about the A).

And she doesn't even mention email or phone conversations. The last email I intercepted was just over a year ago, wherein she said 2 him "I think we can have a fu2re 2gether". She's admitted 2 having had email and phone conversations with him on a few occasions since then (including AFTER he got remarried last fall), but I don't know what they talked about. I haven't seen her email since last year, and haven't seen his phone number show up on the bill since late last year (I think). So, it's possible it's stopped and she really was hoping I'd give her permission 2 contact him again about OOSP. But that just underscores the following point:

"It is a fact, according to most marriage counselors, that once someone has violated the marriage vows with another person, he/she can never remain 'friends' with the person and hope to rebuild his/her marriage. To attempt to remain 'friends' does nothing to reassure the spouse that he/she loves the spouse and wants to remain married. Contact of any kind is essentially continuing the affair, since there is an emotional element involved in making ontact. There is no room for a 3rd person in a marriage."

I've said this many times before. She won't respond. So, I can either reword it (if I want 2 make the point again), or not say it at all.


"I want to know that you love me and are in love with me. I want to know that you value our relationship and marriage more than you value RM. Even if you don't feel these things now, I am willing to wait for those feelings to return if you will commit to opening your heart to me about meeting my needs and allowing me to meet your needs."

I really like this. Will try 2 put it in my own words.


"No, you can't change what WAS, but you can change what could be in the future by making different choices that do not involve deception and inflicting pain on others."

Also good, but I think I might do more "I feel" ness here.

"I'm not sure what it is about which you are sorry. If you're sorry for hurting me, why continue hurting me by insisting on contact with RM? If you're sorry for ever having an affair with RM, I'd like to know that."

Very good.

"I'm also sorry for not meeting whatever needs you had that I was not meeting, which may have contributed to your unhappiness with our marriage. Please understand that I am willing to meet your needs, even after all this time, because I do love you and am committed to rebuilding our marriage so that we are both happy and in love with each other."

Also very good.


"You already are what I want."

This is excellent!

"All I need and want from you is to know that you love me and want to be with me enough to commit only to me.


"No, darling, you are most definitely not 'damaged goods'! Everyone makes mistakes. I know I certainly have made some serious mistakes, and yes, I think you did make a doozy of a mistake by getting involved with RM, but you are not damaged goods by any stretch of the imagination.

I think, though, that we have choices in this, as well as in most other areas of our lives. We can choose to be 'damaged goods' by never learning from our mistakes and continuing them over and over, or we can choose to overcome any damage caused by our mistakes and become better and stronger than before. Just like our house was damaged by fire, after dowsing the last ember and our committing to careful and proper rebuilding, it is becoming more beautiful and better than before. Our marriage can overcome the damage caused by your affair with RM. All that is required is dowsing the last ember, and committing to the careful and proper rebuilding of our love and marriage."

Very good.


"I can understand that feeling, as I've felt that way, too. I would hope, though, that you can learn to trust me and my love for you again. I also want to be able to trust you again."

Very good.

"I am here for you and always have been. Whether I can continue to be here for you depends on whether you WANT me to be here for YOU...and also, whether you want to be here for me, too."

I think it's imperative for me 2 make it clear that I appreciate the fact that she never left - for whatever reason (even if it's only because she realized she couldn't live with RM). I need 2 show her that I know she stayed because she believed we had something valuable - she just didn't know how 2 repair it. I also need her 2 know that I stayed for the same reasons. Only now I know we can make things better - if we're willing 2 make some important, healthy choices from here on out.


"I am so sorry that you are hurting. I wish I could help you through it, but I know that this is something you need to sort out for yourself. I am here for support, though, if you need it from me. As for fixing anything, I think you hae to first figure out what's broken, and then go from there. If you decide to try to fix it, then I will certainly be glad to help in any way I can."

Very good.

-ol' 2long

2long,

I really like LC's thoughts and letter too.

I guess I wanted to make the point that I agree with the way you want to respond to her. Maybe she is selfish, manipulative still, but any opportunity to open communication is good in my opinion.

And we are taught at my management meetings that to give someone the benefit of the doubt can often influence the outcome in positive ways. Sometimes by changing our own attitude about someone elses motives we can bring about the positive change we are hoping for.

If one person changes, the other must too, because a relationship is fluid.

Okay, well I incorporated a lot of LC's suggestions, and put a lot of my own words in. One of the biggest risks I've taken in the past with such a reply, is that it's often been 2long, and so she doesn't finish it. Or she replies with a 6-word sentence or something.

But that's a risk I have 2 take, if email is 2 be the ice-breaker 2 communication for now.



Mrs 2long:

"2long, Before I had said I would be willing to go to the
comunication classes at Kasier and you didn't want to
go.. so why don't you want to do what the counselors
have suggested before..."

One reason I didn't want 2 do that at the time was because you were still in regular contact with RM, and he was a huge barrier 2 communications between us. I'd be happy 2 go now, though, if you're interested.

"I asked you to go through
Kaiser, for yourself, you didn't want to do that
either ..."

I realize that you weren't comfortable with me working with a coach instead of a therapist or counselor. I wanted 2 work with someone with training in dealing with marriages in trouble, and I didn't feel that Kaiser could effectively do that, at the time. If you'd be interested in trying again, though, I am willing.

"I'm not sure any of it will really help.."

Well, we'd get out of it (or anything we decide 2 do) what we put in2 it. No more, no less.

"I often think that the damge is just too deep for you
and there is no hope..."

I feel that there is always hope. Yes, I was very hurt when I found out about your affair over 4 years ago. But even very painful experiences can be used as oppor2nities for personal growth. I think that most people have 2 experience traumatic events in order 2 grow as people. Wish I could find a "magic bullet" 2 wake people up when they're complacent or taking one another for granted. But there really isn't one. I found this quote from a Clifford Simak novel recently:

"It would be a blessing should we be forced to undergo some catastrophic event that would cause us to change our thinking and to seek another way of life"

I really believe that, 2. Our past experiences, painful though they may have been, are oppor2nities 2 make things better if we choose 2 accept them as such.

"It has been getting close to
five year sence I really had close contact him... over
two sence I even saw him..."

Don't forget the emails and phone calls since then. It makes me feel sad that you don't seem 2 realize how hurtful it is 2 YOU 2 have further contact with RM. It keeps you stuck, hoping for a better past.

"I'm not sure what it is
you really want from me..."

I want 2 know that you love me like I love you. I want 2 know that you value our relationship and our family more than you value your relationship with RM. Even if you don't feel these things now, I am willing 2 wait for them 2 re2rn if we will both commit 2 opening our hearts 2 one another and try 2 meet each others needs.

"I can not change what was
and if it's just is two much for you then what can I
say..."

Neither of us can change the past, nor should we want 2. But we can improve the fu2re by making healthier choices and being open and honest with each other about how we feel and what's happening in our lives.

"I am sorry but there is no magic bullet I can't
erase what is in your head...I'm just so sorry..."

If you're feeling sorry for hurting me, why continue doing it by having further contact with RM? If you're apologizing for having the affair with RM, I'd like 2 know that, 2.

I am also sorry for not being there for you all those years ago and allowing our marriage 2 get 2 a state where it was even possible for one of us 2 have an affair.

"I can't make myself be what you want.. I am how I am..."

You already are what I want! You are the mother of our wonderful (though sometimes silly) kids! We're likely 2 be grandparents one of these days! You are an inspired archaeologist and inspiring instructor. It's been great watching you develop your OOSP site and your teaching.

"the truth of the matter is a the moment I'm just such
damaged goods myself that I'm not sure I can have a
relationship with anyone.."

First and foremost: You are NOT "damaged goods" (read that over three times, with feeling!). Everyone makes mistakes. I know I certainly have made some serious mistakes in my time, and yes, I think you did make a doozy of one by getting involved with RM, but you are NOT damaged goods by any stretch of the imagination.

Our mistakes help define us, so long as we choose 2 learn from them and grow from our experiences. We can certainly choose 2 be "damaged goods" by not learning from our mistakes and repeating them, or we can choose 2 overcome the "damage" caused by the mistakes and become healthier, happier individuals than we were before. Just like our house. The fire almost destroyed it, but even though we've had a rough time with certain individuals in rebuilding it, it's going 2 be better than it was before the fire when we're done. Our relationship needs that kind of effort and commitment on both our parts now. Imagine how hard it would be 2 rebuild the house if we hadn't put out the fire first?

"don't really trust anyone.."

I can understand the feeling. I've felt that way for a long time, 2. But I would hope that you can learn 2 trust me again. I also want 2 be able 2 trust you again.

"just hurt...and can't fix anything..."

I'm sorry you're hurting. I wish I could help you through it, but I know that this is something you need 2 sort out for yourself. I hope you can feel more "safe" with time perhaps, coming 2 me for support if you need it. As for fixing anything, I think you need 2 figure out what's broken, first, and go from there.

I love you. Always have, even during the hardest times.

-ol' 2long

I like it.

WAT

Well, she got the message a while ago, but hasn't responded. Yet, at least.

Oh well, it's better 2 have said it than held it in, regardless of how she responds/reacts.

-ol' 2long

This ...


and the letter above....

2'long, if you keep humbling me like that, you're gonna give me a complex.

Wow.

Proud to know you.

NCW

ncw...

Aw, shucks...

...but I'm just a poor country rocket scientist lost in the big city... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

...she still hasn't responded, though. Weird, I'm not at all worried this time... ...much, at least.

-ol' 2long

I like it too. I just hope SHE likes it. Or that it helps.

SS

SS:

it'd be cool if it were 2 help. I'm not holding my breath, though.

-ol' 2long

Aye, and I like it too, 2.

I see you even added an ILU. Cool.

Be preapred to follow up. Close the circuit. Handhake the interface. Convolve with error checking polynomials. Ping the address.

And breathe...

r u ol 2long one of the many rocket scientists in bama? just wonderin'. got kinfolk down there...a country doc. exactly 30 miles from the town they live in is where I think all them fancy rocket scientists live...

am I thinkin' of the same city?

as atlmetro area is about 2.5 hrs away.???

jp:

No, not there. I'm in LA, "city of the fallen angel".



Well folks.

Came home early 2 pick up the truck from the service dept. Plumber was still at the house. W dropped me off 2 pick up the truck, I picked up some Chinese on the way home, we paid the plumber when he was done, watched a little TV, and she fell asleep.

Not a peep about the email, but I know she saw it.

held my hand, though.

-ol' 2long

No peep this morning, either.

I'm figgerin' it's not gonna happen.

She hasn't been unpleasant, though. And that's cool.

-ol' 2long

Hm...


...everybody's 2 busy fixing washing machines over on WAT's thread 2 prolly even notice this...

but I got a reply a bit ago. I'm feeling bad about it, though I probably shouldn't.

"I think we both need to figure out what is broken... and we both need time to do that as people... not as extentions of someone else's wants and needs... For the moment I am spending my time, getting ready for the summer, getting to know Kyle, and getting the house back together."


Part of me wants 2 reply "sensibly" 2 this with something like acknowledgement that it is what we need 2 do. Part of me wants 2 plan a completely different summer for myself somwhere else, and 2rn my cell phone off while I'm gone.

-ol' 2long

Man...


...this finally really feels like an oppor2nity 2 jumpstart the recovery process...

...but I just feel 2 bad right now. 2 indifferent. 2 tired.

-ol' 2long

2long,


For someone who has so much compassion and gentleness for others, you sure are hard on yourself.

I thought the letter you wrote was beautiful. Brought tears to my eyes. For her to respond as --IMO-- coldly and offhandedly as she just did... well... <<shrugs shoulders, shakes head>>... I just don't know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> You seem to have a big heart... you can't just turn that on and off at will. If you feel bad about her response -- let yourself. Who wouldn't?

I'm sure those who know you and your sitch better will be along with more useful feedback.

But I just wanted to say... give yourself a break, will ya?

--SC

I don't know what to say, 2long, but didn't want you to feel like you are hanging out there alone with this.

Oh, by the way 2long, I was wondering if you have one of those Homer Simpson talking bottle openers. I got one for Mr. C for Christmas. Very amusing. Well worth the $$$. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey - is this - is this - an olive branch?