Folks:

My W didn't answer my 2uestion about counseling, even over the weekend (I don't think her CA likes 2 have R-talks), so I just sent her this email:

Hi!

Mrs 2long (last week): Thanks for your honsety...not sure what else to say...

It occurred 2 me, you didn't answer my other question. Thoughts?:


> I have wanted 2 ask
> you if you'd be
> interested in starting marriage counseling again.
> Sure, counselors
> can't tell you what 2 do, but they might help us
> break some
> communication barriers and help us determine what we
> want our
> relationship 2 look like from here on out.


I'm willing to pay for it.


-2long.


-ol' 2long
P.S. Told you guys I wasn't going 2 let this ball drop again. Don't have a lot of expectations, just a tad of hope at this point. So, if she says "no" or doesn't respond, I've got other things I want 2 pose 2 her.

"I'm willing to pay for it."

Does this mean you and Mrs. 2 have mostly separate financial lives? Just wondering if this might be a symptom of the greater disconnect. Definitely facilitates her over-all secrecy though.

Complete and total re-integration of all aspects of our lives was a non-negotiable recovery condition for me.

Appy:

She put her inheritance from her grandmother in an account 2 pay for her OOSP activities - purchasing the property, upgrades 2 her grandparents home there (she also used $1K of it 2 put down on an apartment for RM in fall 2002, when his W kicked him out in the cold, rain, and snow - though I didn't hear about it for more than a year).

When my dad passed away last summer, she suggested I do the same, so I have.

Our incomes are combined in2 our joint accounts, though, and everything else is shared.

-ol' 2long

"When my dad passed away last summer, she suggested I do the same, so I have."

...hope people haven't decided not 2 post because they thought I just said I'm PUSHIN' UP DAISIES! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

...I love picking apart what people write! This time, I got 2 pick on myself! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

Naw, in your case we know it wouldn't be daisies you be pushin' up... more like daffy dills. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ha Hahaha.
Good one Weaver.

I read it right the first time 2long, but that one can sure be taken differently.

SS

LOL!!

Waiting to hear your F?WW's response...

Yeah, reminds me of the time me and my ol' mule were out riding along the rim of Golly Gully.

It was winter, and there were clouds along the rim that got so thick at one point me and my mule couldn't see the ground beneath our very feet/hooves.

We must have lost the trail, because when the clouds broke a few minutes later we saw the rim about half a mile behind us, and the ground about half a mile below us.

Of course, upon realizing our predicament, gravity 2k hold and we fell.




we were both killed.

"Waiting to hear your F?WW's response... "

She teaches 2day, but should be getting home in about a half hour...

...but then, I'm probably heading home before then, so it'll be a while - assuming she reads her email anyway.

(if she doesn't bring it up, I oughta).

-ol' 2long

I think I saw the obituary. Nice write up.

That happened to me once crossing a stream when the log broke. I was making good progress in the direction of the other bank, and I might have made it if I hadn't lost altitude so fast.

SS

Okay, here's her response. She had just finished it when I got home. She said "well, you're probably not going 2 like it.":

"Before I had said I would be willing to go to the communication classes at Kasier and you didn't want to
go...

so why don't you want to do what the conselors have suggested before?..

I asked you to go to Kasier for yourself you didn't want to do that either ...

I'm not sure any of it will really help..

I often think that the damage is just too deep for you and there is no hope...

It has been getting close to five year since I really had close contact with him...

over two since I even saw him...

I'm not sure what it is you really want from me...

I can not change what was, and if it's just is too much for you then what can I say?..

I am sorry but there is no magic bullet I can't erase what is in your head...

I'm just so sorry...

I can't make myself be what you want.. I am how I am...

the truth of the matter is at the moment I'm just such damaged goods myself that I'm not sure I can have a relationship with anyone..

don't really trust anyone..

just hurt...and can't fix anything..."



I don't know about you folks, but this is the most "conversation" we've had without anger and hurt feelings since this all began. I think there's a lot of reason for hope in her message.

And one thing I'll tell her right up front: She is NOT damaged! She's hurt, yes. I've been hurt, 2. But damagaed? NO.

-ol' 2long

...and I'm going 2 take my time replying 2 that one. So, don't wait up! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But I'm going 2 tell her she's NOT damaged goods!

...isn't that an oxymoron? "Damaged goods?" Like "Pristine badness?"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Anyway, lots 2 do. Lost 2 think about. Something 2 glom on2 and nucleate on.


-ol' 2long

Would you consider going to the communications class?

Is a duck's butt waterproof??

Heck yeah, I'd go!

I don't know if it's offered anytime soon, but sure, I'd go.

-ol' 2long

I'm a bit confused, 2long. All you asked her to do was not contact RM. Now you're getting a whole bunch of other stuff.

It's nice that she's communicating more openly. But it feels a bit like a diversionary tactic to distract your concern about an unreasonable and selfish request.

Well 2long has always said that she is a huge CA, and not the most emotionally open person either, so yes opening up to him in this manner would be a good sign.

If what he has been trying to do is start with a friendship first, and build a new love on that then yes...this would be a good sign.

She is now saying she is unsure 2long can get over it, and that she is hurting inside. Not easy words for a woman who is not good being emotionally vulnerable.

"Love is friendship caught fire" (even for folks married to each other)

And if 2long thinks he can handle more disappointment, then I say keep the communication flowing...milk it for all it is worth.

That's just my opinion, and subject to scrutiny. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

2 - just wnted to let you know I'm reading. Don't have any advice, not being a recovery hack.

WAT
---------------
Spy vs Spy
Fiction vs Fiction
So dark the con of man

Hi, 2Long,
I haven't posted to you in a long while, if ever, but I've followed your story. Here is my take on a response to your wife. Feel free to discard what may not be accurate or seems wrong for you.


Was the reason you didn't want to go to the classes because she was still communicating with RM? If so, then why not explain to her that one reason you didn't want to go to the classes was because you felt that her communicating with RM was a huge barrier to communications between you?[/b}

Quote

I asked you to go to Kasier for yourself you didn't want to do that either ...

I'm not sure any of it will really help..

[b]I think that, since she is indicating that she might be willing to work on things, you should consider going...if she will also go.


I'd reply, 'Yes, the damage is deep after dealing, alone, with your affair and and insistence on maintaining contact with your affair partner, despite my pain over your doing so, for 15 years. However, the damage is not so deep that that it cannot be repaired with your help and commitment to loving only me and rebuilding our marriage to one that could be amazingly wonderful.


What hurts me is your desire to maintain contact with him, even if it is only through email. It is a fact, according to most marriage counselors, that once someone has violated the marriage vows with another person, he/she can never remain 'friends' with the person and hope to rebuild his/her marriage. To attempt to remain 'friends' does nothing to reassure the spouse that he/she loves the spouse and wants to remain married. Contact of any kind is essentially continuing the affair, since there is an emotional element involved in making ontact. There is no room for a 3rd person in a marriage.


I want to know that you love me and are in love with me. I want to know that you value our relationship and marriage more than you value RM. Even if you don't feel these things now, I am willing to wait for those feelings to return if you will commit to opening your heart to me about meeting my needs and allowing me to meet your needs.


No, you can't change what WAS, but you can change what could be in the future by making different choices that do not involve deception and inflicting pain on others.

No, you can't erase what's in my head, but by actively committing to our marriage and learning to love only me again, together, we can superimpose new, happy memories over the bad memories in both our heads.

I'm not sure what it is about which you are sorry. If you're sorry for hurting me, why continue hurting me by insisting on contact with RM? If you're sorry for ever having an affair with RM, I'd like to know that.

I'm also sorry for not meeting whatever needs you had that I was not meeting, which may have contributed to your unhappiness with our marriage. Please understand that I am willing to meet your needs, even after all this time, because I do love you and am committed to rebuilding our marriage so that we are both happy and in love with each other.


You already are what I want. All I need and want from you is to know that you love me and want to be with me enough to commit only to me.

Any changes that you make in yourself have to be because you want to change whatever (if anything) it is that you want to change. I used to think that 'I am how I am', too; but, I've learned that it is possible to change myself, and I think that I have changed myself a lot...and for the better. It's hard work, but possible.


No, darling, you are most definitely not 'damaged goods'! Everyone makes mistakes. I know I certainly have made some serious mistakes, and yes, I think you did make a doozy of a mistake by getting involved with RM, but you are not damaged goods by any stretch of the imagination.

I think, though, that we have choices in this, as well as in most other areas of our lives. We can choose to be 'damaged goods' by never learning from our mistakes and continuing them over and over, or we can choose to overcome any damage caused by our mistakes and become better and stronger than before. Just like our house was damaged by fire, after dowsing the last ember and our committing to careful and proper rebuilding, it is becoming more beautiful and better than before. Our marriage can overcome the damage caused by your affair with RM. All that is required is dowsing the last ember, and committing to the careful and proper rebuilding of our love and marriage.


I can understand that feeling, as I've felt that way, too. I would hope, though, that you can learn to trust me and my love for you again. I also want to be able to trust you again.

I am here for you and always have been. Whether I can continue to be here for you depends on whether you WANT me to be here for YOU...and also, whether you want to be here for me, too.


I am so sorry that you are hurting. I wish I could help you through it, but I know that this is something you need to sort out for yourself. I am here for support, though, if you need it from me. As for fixing anything, I think you hae to first figure out what's broken, and then go from there. If you decide to try to fix it, then I will certainly be glad to help in any way I can.

I love you, wife. Just know that.
[/quote]

Her latest response sounds like a great big pity party.

"You asked me what I wanted for Mother's Day.
and then would not give me permission for what I want
so...woe is me. I'm just gonna go eat worms.
I'm hurt and damaged and I don't trust anyone.
Poor, poor me"

This is an attempt at M A N I P U L A T I O N not communication.

LC:

I like your suggestions, but I think I need 2 make more "I feel" statements and thus sound less like I'm trying 2 educate her.

Susan:

I most definitely agree. BUT... ...I think I can handle any attempts at manipulation now. And any discussion - even if (maybe especially) we have it through emails for a while (allowing us 2 compose our responses until the other feels "safe" enough 2 open up more) - can be viewed as a step 2ward communication. We need 2 burn our marital conflict avoidance card first and foremost.

You know? I slept pretty peacefully last night. My W was a little more conversational after I didn't "react" negatively 2 her email (I read it in front of her), and a bit more cheerful. Still a pessimist, but maybe I can steer her away from that kind of thinking some.

So, anyway, I slept well. As I was going 2 sleep, I felt a bit more hope for our marriage, but a self-reassurance that I can still go either way, depending on what she ultimately chooses 2 do. And I'll be happy, because I know that this hurt will be behind me one way or the other, perhaps "soon" (which, in the overall scheme of things, could be a few years, still).

It'd be nifty if she could be happy again, 2. Her choice.

-ol' 2long