[This is a vent. I probably won't send this.]


Mrs 2long, I married you because I love you. You've helped me reach my goals as a parent and as a scientist. I also have enjoyed being able 2 participate in your efforts 2 reach yours. That is who I am. I really like who I am.

If you feel you are stifled as an individual, or not allowed 2 be friends with your @$$holemate by being married 2 me, we should end the pain. I don't want either of us to be happy at the other's expense. Your request of me for Mother's Day was if it would be okay for you to resume contact with RM about your OOSP.

If contact with RM is so important to you that you'd rather have permission 2 resume it than 2 celebrate your family and motherhood on Mother's Day, then you can contact him. I won't interfere any longer. But please let me go, first! Perhaps consider it a similar consideration of my feelings as a Father's Day present 2 me.

You are free to make your own choices. I am not trying to take your freedom away - that was never my intent, by marrying you over 30 years ago.

I have no more fight left in me. I hereby quit."



I know, it's 2long and perhaps 2 full of DJs. ...and I'm pissed at the moment...

[end vent]

[vent continued, but shorter:]

Mrs 2long, Your request of me for Mother's Day was if it would be okay for you to resume contact with RM about your OOSP.

If contact with RM is so important to you that you'd rather have permission 2 resume (continue?) it than 2 celebrate your family and motherhood on Mother's Day, then you can contact him. I won't interfere any longer. I would only ask in re2rn that you let me go. Maybe think of it as consideration of my feelings as a Father's Day present 2 me.

I have no more fight left in me. I quit."


Anyhoo...

Not something I'd say, really. I probably need 2 give her more time. She'll take it anyway.

Gotta work.

-ol' 2long

2long

You make this so complex; so political and diplomatic.

Tell her you accept her terms or you don't. IMO, of course. Either way it will save a ton of heartache.

All blessings, matey

Bob:

I was caught up in the excitement over the chance 2 finally have some sort of dialog with my W about how we feel about things. As it's 2rned out, though, nothing has changed.

Nor have my options. Or my responsibilities.

I can't think of anything 2 say 2 her, really.

-ol' 2long

Darn:

I thought of this reply, but don't really like it either (it's 2long):

Well, at the risk of repeating myself again, I have never thought of you as an extension of me in any way, shape, or form. You are not my "property".

I believe that marriage is between people who complement each other as whole individuals.

*Neither "completes" the other - because that would suggest that individuals are incomplete unless they're in a relationship.

*Neither "brings out the best" in the other, because that implies that the individual is incapable of expressing themselves without help from someone else.

"For the moment I am spending my time, getting ready for the summer, getting to know DS, and gettin gthe house back together"

Good for you. Is our relationship on your "to do" list somewhere?


-ol' 2long

I like the very last sentence, the rest is "educating", the last is an honest question.

2long,

I am/have been single most of my life and have come as far as I can alone, I think.

We need the love of a partner to get to the place of total "self-actualization", (after God, as is my belief)

I need a partner who loves me so that I CAN be free. At no other time in our existance are we as free as we are as when we are loved.

It took me my entire life of being single to come to this "truth".

She needs to get to this place as well, and you can't help her get there...

That is the sad truth.
Yyou can keep the conversation open, honest and true to what you want, need, will except...

but that is all you can do.

You can not find just the right words to "click" for her, because you just don't know what is going to do that for another person.

Good for you. Is our relationship on your "to do" list somewhere?

"Good for you - and I am wondering if doing things to improve and strengthen our relationship is on your list. If not, we both should be asking our selves why continue somethig that's not important enough to spend time working on? Maybe it's time to have a discussion about it."


SS

<<<<<<<<<<<<<2long>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"I'm pissed at the moment..."

That is evident. (Sigh.) The problem with unmet expectations -- even when we have carefully told ourselves not to expect too much -- is that it REALLY hurts when we are let down.

2long: When you back a CA up against a wall, the outcome can be predicted with accuracy. Which is why although your previous e-mail was sent with the best of intentions, your W's response was virtually inevitable.

I sincerely hope you do not send any version of the new e-mail you've just written. It is full of DJs as you already realize, and -- in addition -- it is not YOU. If you want to end this marriage, I sincerely hope it will be with dignity and integrity, and will be about who you are. The above e-mail is not the 2long that I've come to recognize over several years of reading.

In addition, I'd like to offer several observations and suggestions that I believe will be supportive to your marriage, rather than commenting on whether or not you "should" continue in your current marriage:

1. The fat lady is not yet singing. That much is also evident to me as an outside observer. Perhaps your tiredness is a critical part of the journey you're on? Perhaps this is the midst of real change for the first time? (Even if you are exhausted. Especially perhaps because you are exhausted.)

2. Discontinue explaining or educating your W, and simply ask questions as SC suggested. That's where opportunity for your marriage lies right now.

3. If you are not prepared to do this at the current time, then back off and let your W think for a while. Cogitate. Yes, you may have done this many times before, and you may think you already know what the outcome will be. And yet...look at #4.

4. Hold your thoughts differently in the interim, until you can re-engage in respectful communication with your W. Forget the past and leave the insanity behind. Although to most people, I'd suggest thinking about what they hope for the marriage, to you I'd suggest thinking about something else altogether (ie. is there a particularly thorny problem you can plunge your thoughts into?) precisely because you are in the midst of a circular thinking pattern right now, and because you've been thinking for a very long time about the state or non-state of your marriage. My best guess is that you need a mental refresher for a bit.

Weaver has a positive attitude and has described it well (ie. management meeting comments). The attitude -- NOT expectation -- we bring to problem resolution is enormously powerful.

I bring this attitude into the room as a 3rd party and people routinely comment on its power. It isn't that I've predetermined ANY outcome whatsoever. It isn't that I assume their relationship will be better at the end of the day. And yes, I normally already know the expectations of both parties in advance and may have a pretty good idea what the potential outcome MIGHT be.

However, the assistance I bring into the room is that I believe in possibility. And I maintain an open, questioning, interested attitude that positively and infectiously affects the attitudes of the negotiating parties. Often against their will. Often against their VERY determined will. It's very sneaky! The power of positive thinking.

What's my assessment of your own attitude 2long? It's hopeful. With enormous expectations. Despite today's anger. In fact, this is driving today's anger IMO. (Or frustration. Or tiredness. However you prefer to characterize it.)

And these expectations are very very hard (demanding) for a CA to deal with. The "manipulation" others have referred to are the squirms of the classic CA, trying to wriggle out of disappointing someone else, running away from something they fear, and reinforcing all the bad feelings they routinely carry around inside themselves. The bad feelings your W expressed rather eloquently I thought. The ones you just told your W were wrong. (Ouch BTW. Her feelings and thoughts are hers to have. Not yours to correct. Although I appreciate that you see her differently.)

I don't know why I feel moved to write to you right now 2long. Especially as long posts are considered anathema on these boards! Perhaps you've triggered me back to my own sitch with my H, where I was able to draw upon my professional skills and discovered how enormously hard they were to keep in place when my own heart (expectations) were so firmly engaged in the outcome!

Again: <<<<<<<<<<<<<2long>>>>>>>>>>>>>. You are a good-hearted soul.

Perhaps the reason I am writing to you right now, today, is because I was successful at the same task I see lies before you. Eventually I was successful. It took me quite a while to get it right! To get MYSELF into the place where I could say what I needed to say.

I maintained my firm boundaries, restating my marital boundaries (NO WAY for 3 in this marriage) and YET, I did not do it through demands. I gave my H a huge amount of space so that he could think before he lost it all. My approach was to listen, and to continue to ask him questions. Curious questions. (Not hidden demands or judgements.) To draw him out. To foster the space I understood was the best chance for our marriage -- in fact, the only chance for our marriage since I was absolutely firm on NC -- a place where he could hear himself, and finally listen to what his heart was telling him amidst the chaos of self-absorption and conflicted emotions.

Perhaps I'm writing to you because I decry the DJs that abound around many MB posts. "Pity party" it may well be. "Manipulation" as well. However, someone's real feelings and someone's real marriage lie at the heart of those particular DJs.

There is another path available if you choose to take it. While never once -- not ONCE -- wavering from your boundary of NC. Ever.

One other story that may be of interest and/or draw a parallel that is helpful to you: during a marital mediation a couple of months ago with a battling couple, the critical statement was made to the H something along the lines of: "what I'm hearing you say is that you are seeing your secretary for dinner and talking with her outside of work hours because she is meeting needs that you don't think your wife is meeting?"

YES YES YES he said. And it was a relief to his W to hear those dreaded words spoken. (Many in my profession would not have made this kind of summary, considering it to be too risky a strategy.) It was confirmation for the W that the contact was NOT the business-supper-because-secretary-works-so-hard-with-me-on-the-project excuses she'd been hearing for so long from her H. The relief was spread across her face.

And it was at that moment that HE first heard himself too. Up until then, it had been a classic power struggle between H and W in their interpretation of the "friendship" with the secretary. Once this statement was out on the table -- in a way that he too could accept, because it was stated neutrally and non-judgementally after a lot of elicitive questioning -- they were able to move forward to really get down to the nubin of working on the marriage together. They started talking about each of their needs. They started their negotiating dance, which is recognizable (and a beautiful thing) to the trained eye, even though it doesn't feel like much progress at first for the parties involved.

IMO it's likely that a PA was avoided because of this intervention. And a damaging EA was nipped in the bud. (He ended up leaving his work because it was too demanding. As with most affairs, the secretary never was the issue.)

The reason I'm telling you this story 2long is because in that particular case, the WS had entered the room in full-blown denial that ANYTHING inappropriate was going on with his secretary. He left the room a changed man. Primarily because he'd heard himself instead of arguing with his wife.

As you might guess, I understood the relief his wife experienced when those tough words were spoken. Instinctively she understood that they finally had a chance at healing. And all of her "harping" and bad moods (fear) weren't because she was going slowly crazy, because she was paranoid. She welcomed the opportunity to talk about what he was missing at home, and to talk about her needs too. And to do so in a safe environment, as a team.

And yet...all it took to break the logjam was the same thing she'd been saying to him for a long while! But until HE said it (albeit through a 3rd party), he couldn't get past the power struggle they were engaged in. He refused to see her POV. And they had remained stuck at that point for something like 6 months.

A breakthrough often turns on a dime, a heartbeat, a moment of risk and opportunity. Open and curious questions can work miracles. And it often takes time for those miracles to become readily apparent.

Your W will also have to hear it herself 2long. My best suggestion loosely put is to help her by getting out of her way -- ask her questions and drop the power struggle rope. Let it very much be all about her.

Hope something in this long post helps. My very best to you.

Merge

P.S. One other piece of unsolicited advice: if you really and truly are at the end of your rope, what about Plan B? I would hope that you'd give yourself the opportunity to see what time and space does for you both.

I've watched so many people here stay embattled until they are exhausted and walk away in angry defeat. It is a huge loss IMO. A rest from the chaos gives you a chance at rejuvenating your own positive energy, and your W the opportunity to experience life without you in it.

Sure Plan B is a risk. I guess I don't understand what constitutes a no-risk D?

Um, it took me so long to write my last post between working on other stuff that several other posts have now come in.

I like what weaver said. I usually do.

"Good for you. Is our relationship on your "to do" list somewhere?"

Wow. I hope you realize how disrespectful this is (or any other version of this "question"). It's a further expression of your pain, expressed in classic CA language. Which in turn enable and encourage further CA responses from your W. And so the dysfunctional dance will continue. Trying to nail down a CA with your own needs is like trying to nail jelly to the wall. More expressions of insanity -- doing the same thing over and over while expecting different results.

If you want to ask her, ask her respectfully. What you're asking right now isn't a question at all -- it is a hidden demand. And so it goes...

Sigh.

Merge

merge:

I read your whole post! I love it. I'm also so ashamed of myself for getting back in2 the age-old rut I found myself in on d-day.

I haven't sent any of those "samples" I wrote here 2day. They are judgmental and cruel, frankly.

I'll never "draw her out" that way, and I always knew it.



Not that I could do this, but I was told of a sitch like this a while back, and I'm reminded of it by your post:

H finds his W is having a long-distance "same time next year" kind of affair. They have a "good M", 2 the extent that's possible in a si2ation where she's getting needs met occasionally and conveniently while on travel with her job. He gathers evidence 2 convince himself that he's not imagining things. He never confronts her with his evidence, so she never learns he's aware of the A. He never exposes her either.

He knows that any frontal attack on her A can always be deflected by going further underground, so he works on improving the things he can improve - his own atti2de, as you might say. And he watches. He learns, through trial and error perhaps, how 2 meet the needs the OM is meeting, so his W doesn't need the OM anymore.

I think I was told it 2k him years 2 accomplish, but save his M he did.


I don't think I could do that, but I do admire his ability 2 do so. Still, though the specifics aren't something I could do, the general approach is something that I might be able 2 grasp.

After all, changing one's own perspective and presence is what surviving infidelity is all about.

I do need 2 channel my energy elsewhere, though. I've been pretty wrapped up in this for almost a week now.

-ol'2long

How about something like:

"Gee, you certainly make things sound hopeless. It's contagious! I'm thinking of spending my summer vacation alone on the mountain, with the cell phone turned off. What are your plans?"

Or maybe just the first sentence of that. "Gee, you certainly make things sound hopeless. I'm feeling hopeless, nowadays, too."

Sorry, 2long, I actually liked your "vent" messages. I, for one, am tired of your WW's passive-aggressive stuff. Smartcookie had it right: stringing you along and keeping you at arm's length.

Sometimes I get the feeling that she wants YOU to end the marriage, so she will feel guilt-free. She can claim it wasn't her fault, and had nothing to do with RM. She's waiting for YOU to snap. So she sends this passive-aggressive stuff, and 2long goes into a tailspin with 8-page threads, walking on eggshells around her.

Shoot me down, everyone, but I'd kind of like to see 2long express his exhaustion and his increasing indifference, and let HER thrash around trying to find solutions. Let HER write the 8-page threads. Or else take up his offer, end the marriage, and take a little responsibility for the decision-making.

"If contact with RM is so important to you that you'd rather have permission 2 resume it than 2 celebrate your family and motherhood on Mother's Day, then you can contact him. I won't interfere any longer. But please let me go, first! Perhaps consider it a similar consideration of my feelings as a Father's Day present 2 me."

Hey! I think that says it all.

P.S. Plan A isn't supposed to become a way of life. In this situation, I fear it's become one, with 2long's Taker on permanent hold.

It's not a healthy way to live.

AMM:

I like merge's PS above.

If my taker gets me 2 send those emails, and we DV, I'll forever wonder if I might have missed an oppor2nity 2 save things still. And I don't want 2 live like THAT, any more than I want 2 live like THIS anymore.

Merge did suggest plan B, 2.

-ol' 2long

I would vote for plan b too -

SS

SS:

Maybe the thing we both need. But boy, what a pain at this point in time.

Still working on that big-fat-investment-house.
Trying 2 sell other house 2 SIL, who's hopefully getting help from fiance in the next few months.
Trying 2 help DD and SonIL 2 buy a house after the 2nd house sells.

Gonna need 2 communicate for all that.

If I don't go 2 OOSP this time around, it sends a strong message and gives me about a month of quiet time, though. One possibility.

-ol' 2long

I know what you mean, 2long, about always wondering if you missed an opportunity.

My concern is that she KNOWS that, and it is the hook she uses to string you along without making an effort herself.

I really don't think a simple email like "Hmmmm... you make everything seem hopeless" is a DJ. It's holding up a mirror.



But you are, you are continuing in an emotional gridlock. You don't want to take the risks inherent in ending the gridlock.

I don't think your marriage ought to go down in flames without you showing -- firmly -- your increasing indifference. I don't think it should be expressed only on the boards, as it grows and grows and grows.

I know she's shown a lack of compassion. But hiding your feelings from her is not the answer. Her indifference and fence-sitting, for so many years, is affecting you.

You don't want to force things to a head -- I know, I understand -- but she's playing on that.

I'll let others shout me down. I'm not at all sure I'm right.

It's always a pain. There's pain all over the board with marriages ending at a point that caused hardship for families, for children, and great financial ruin. There's never a "good" time.

That's one reason, among many, that most sane people make efforts in their marriage.

Again, she's counting on you to see the disadvantage of ending things now. She has a very shrewd taker.

"But boy, what a pain at this point in time."

I tell you: that was the hardest thing to wrap my head around! I finally decided it was like pregnancy -- perhaps the "right" time would never arrive. And so I chose. And counted down in my head, which is what allowed me to interact with my H without expectation. I'd let go of any. I just loved him right before I left him for Plan B. I gave him every opportunity to change his mind and I never said a word about a deadline.

This is what I popped back on here to add, especially after reading your first post back to me: I do NOT recommend doing this Plan A stuff for a protracted time. Just like Willard Harley suggests, it is too painful. And you've been at this far too long as it is, in my opinion only. Hence the exhaustion.

What a plan for Plan B gave me was enormous strength in the short-run. A purpose. A way NOT to feel like a doormat. And truthfully, I found myself growing so curious, just like when I was talking with him prior to d-day.

Open questions, especially ones that explore feelings -- "I'm curious about that" -- help untangle what is really at stake. Something is at stake, something buried in the past (likely). Otherwise she would have been long gone.

That is my opinion. What I think is there for you to explore -- IF you are interested -- prior to Plan B.

The proverbial "get your ducks in order" is excellent too, like your recent post about finances. Question: How about using a trusted 3rd party to communicate through about finances, someone other than a family member?

Another opinion: your month of quiet time would be a GREAT start to a Plan B!!!

What do you think about having one well-executed discussion with your W before she goes? With a terrifically qualified mediator that is FAMILIAR and successful at dealing with infidelity issues or a WELL-RECOMMENDED MC (sorry, this is emphasis -- not yelling -- because I don't seem to have the bold option available!). There's an association of pro-marriage counsellors started by the author William or Bill ... ??? I can't remember his last name. Anyhow, I bet you could get a recommendation from there for someone in your area. This really needs to be face-to-face IMO to be effective. Over the phone won't do it.

Then Plan B. When she goes to OOSP. Boom.

Having a date -- a close date too -- really and truly helped me to take the final internal step prior to Plan B. I let go in a way I hadn't understood before. I was finally ready. And I set the date 10 days away, to coincide with some particular event I've long-since forgotten!

I think some of your close friends have seen this in you 2long. Your readiness and willingness to do the scariest thing you've ever faced.

I get teary just writing about it. It was SO tough to let go of my marriage and just let BE...

It is scary. And SO worth it. You let go of the chaos and look after yourself. By yourself. Prepared to do it. Because...

My date was firm BTW. And I never said a word to him. I did an excellent Plan A, prepared to let go. Do NC myself. This also happened to give me great preparation for the trials he faced when he finally went NC totally and completely of his own will, at long last not just to please me or keep the peace or...

re: NC -- it's very hard to train your thought process and what a wonderful skill when we succeed!

As you realize, your W is not there yet (training herself away from thoughts of OM) and this is the choice she faces -- to police herself. That's the biggest challenge a WS faces: to change themselves. For themselves. Their open and honest, loving choice. It remains in their hands and is all about them.

The A was never about you ol' 2long.

Training your thoughts away from your expectations of your W and your marriage is the challenge that I see for you. Suspended animation is tough! Good luck whichever path you choose.

Merge

"I tell you: that was the hardest thing to wrap my head around! I finally decided it was like pregnancy -- perhaps the "right" time would never arrive. And so I chose. And counted down in my head, which is what allowed me to interact with my H without expectation. I'd let go of any. I just loved him right before I left him for Plan B. I gave him every opportunity to change his mind and I never said a word about a deadline."

I understand this, though I've never been pregnant! ;o) But what about letting go of expectations without physically going 2 plan B? I think I can do that, 2. Consider all this email traffic this week, and my realization after reading all youze guyses posts, where I was going with it - like you said, I was djing and expecting all over again. So, I haven't responded via email 2 her email this morning, and I don't see the need 2. I WILL talk 2 her, though, but I doubt she'll want 2.

"This is what I popped back on here to add, especially after reading your first post back to me: I do NOT recommend doing this Plan A stuff for a protracted time. Just like Willard Harley suggests, it is too painful. And you've been at this far too long as it is, in my opinion only. Hence the exhaustion."

Indeed. It is what it is, though.

"What a plan for Plan B gave me was enormous strength in the short-run. A purpose. A way NOT to feel like a doormat. And truthfully, I found myself growing so curious, just like when I was talking with him prior to d-day."

The incredible lightness I felt when I spent 2 weeks away 2 years ago was probably the closest 2 a plan B detachment I've done - well, that and the times she's been gone or I've been gone.

"Open questions, especially ones that explore feelings -- "I'm curious about that" -- help untangle what is really at stake. Something is at stake, something buried in the past (likely). Otherwise she would have been long gone."

Very definitely. But I'm probably not getting this the way you mean it. Wouldn't this "open question" be a DJ, like the stuff above:

Mrs 2long, I'm curious about the meaning of your original question about renewed contact for a Mother's Day present. Are you asking for permission 2 resume, or permission 2 continue?

because a lot of what I do next, if I were 2 do something MBishly, hinges on whether this is a symptom of an ongoing A, or early withdrawal. But maybe the safest thing 2 do is assume that contact never stopped. If I went 2 plan B, then, and she hadn't re-established contact, it would be "easy" for her 2 recommit and get me back.

Am I missing your point completely? Like a guy might? ;oD

"That is my opinion. What I think is there for you to explore -- IF you are interested -- prior to Plan B."

How about "regardless of plan B?"

"The proverbial "get your ducks in order" is excellent too, like your recent post about finances. Question: How about using a trusted 3rd party to communicate through about finances, someone other than a family member?"

There is no such person. Really.

"Another opinion: your month of quiet time would be a GREAT start to a Plan B!!!"

True.

"What do you think about having one well-executed discussion with your W before she goes? With a terrifically qualified mediator that is FAMILIAR and successful at dealing with infidelity issues or a WELL-RECOMMENDED MC (sorry, this is emphasis -- not yelling -- because I don't seem to have the bold option available!). There's an association of pro-marriage counsellors started by the author William or Bill ... ??? I can't remember his last name. Anyhow, I bet you could get a recommendation from there for someone in your area. This really needs to be face-to-face IMO to be effective. Over the phone won't do it."

Interesting, your view on in-person versus phone counseling. I think my W feels that way, 2. But, she won't agree 2 such a meeting anytime soon. She's made that clear for 4 years now, including recently.

"Having a date -- a close date too -- really and truly helped me to take the final internal step prior to Plan B. I let go in a way I hadn't understood before. I was finally ready. And I set the date 10 days away, to coincide with some particular event I've long-since forgotten!"

In a way, I think I can now "let go", and/or detach in ways I never unders2d before as well. Again, based on what's happened in the past week, and regadless of whether I do or don't do plan B.

"I think some of your close friends have seen this in you 2long. Your readiness and willingness to do the scariest thing you've ever faced."

Thank you, I'm pretty sure... ;o)

"I get teary just writing about it. It was SO tough to let go of my marriage and just let BE..."

I'm finding this easier and easier 2 do with time. After all this time, really, what am I letting go of anyway? Something I imagined still existed but clearly doesn't. My W said, after d-day, that she "emotionally divorced" herself from the M years before. She hasn't proclaimed herself "married" again since. The opposite, rather. Still emotionally DV'd. So, I pretty much resigned myself last summer 2 the fact that the M was in shambles and if and when she wanted that 2 change, she'd let me know. Really, except for a few threads since last fall, where I may have foolishly gotten my hopes up again, this week has been little different, and I can now go back 2 detaching with love and waiting if that's called for. And simply not going 2 OOSP this year, versus waiting until the end of her trip last year 2 go (giving us almost a month apart), is a big step. BIL and his W and kids will be there for the 4th, as my kids are planning 2 do.

At best, that might be a "modified plan B" (2long proclaims, knowing full well that there is no such thing and all his friends are pulling their 2x4s out of the closet even as I type). But we have a big house and I could avoid her when she got back if I want 2. Not easily, of course.

If I do a real plan B, I will wait until we get my DD and SonIL in2 a new house, which could be anywhen between a month from now and the end of the year. That's just the way I am, and what I will do. End of that discussion.

"re: NC -- it's very hard to train your thought process and what a wonderful skill when we succeed!

As you realize, your W is not there yet (training herself away from thoughts of OM) and this is the choice she faces -- to police herself. That's the biggest challenge a WS faces: to change themselves. For themselves. Their open and honest, loving choice. It remains in their hands and is all about them."

Which is, of course, the best reason for plan B in the first place. I haven't forgotten that.

"The A was never about you ol' 2long."

Correct! ;o)

"Training your thoughts away from your expectations of your W and your marriage is the challenge that I see for you. Suspended animation is tough! Good luck whichever path you choose."

I agree. This is the hardest, particularly since I had thought I was doing it so well! Always room for (sometimes big) improvement!

-ol' 2long

I haven't sent any of those "samples" I wrote here 2day. They are judgmental and cruel, frankly.

I'd like to ban the word "judgemental". We judge each other all the time. People who throw that word at others are doing it themselves!

Just a sec... brain in knots...

Sorry, just hate that word.

Oh, and this "judge the action but not the actor" jive is next on my list.

If I rob a bank, I am a bank robber.

GC