OK, 2long, I'll do the 2x4 thing. I'm not trying to be mean or hard -- and I'll offer the usual proviso: I'm not convinced I'm seeing this right. None of us should be. This is just my take...

2long, you keep trying to invent solutions that will involve the minimum risk, minimum pain, and prolong your own hope. If you do what you are calling your "modified Plan B" in the same house, to minimize the suffering of moving out, she will throw you a little string of hope, or maybe a medium string of hope, and you'll be back on the boards, and we'll be dissecting what she said, and what it might have meant, and what you should do... Maybe it will be sex. Maybe she'll invite you to dinner. But it won't be a full recovery or commitment. She's learned she doesn't have to meet that demand.

That ain't Plan B, or a modified Plan B.

The horrible part of Plan B is the withdrawal -- of learning not to think about WW wife anymore, not to include her in your plans. Jumpstarting a life without WW. The pain and awfulness of ending -- in your head -- the thirty-year marriage. Yes, the WW might come around -- but you are psychologically single again, and able to view the marriage much more objectively. Plan B is a leap into the dark -- not dipping your toe into the pool.

You want to have Plan B without the pain of Plan B. Understandable, but it's not what Plan B is about. Plan B IS pain. At least initially. And if you're going to do it right, to maximize the possibility of results, then you have to walk through the Circle of Fire. And that's precisely the effort you don't want to face.

I don't want to be mean, but ... this simply isn't an MB situation anymore. In my opinion.

Like many people on this board -- and especially those who are educated well above average on MB -- you haven't followed the rules. You're smart. And I think that's part of the problem.

But if I take a recipe out of Family Circle (a rag I wouldn't normally read except in a dentist's office), and change and adapt it to my own tastes, substituting incredients and adjusting oven times and temperature ... at some point, I don't have the result that the recipe-creator was passing on. And I'll never know what the cookies should have been like.

All along, you've said your situation was different, etc. And now you are way down the road -- fourteen years down the road -- still tinkering with the recipe, still trying to adjust the ingredients, and you're wondering why the recipe doesn't work. Why what should be a loaf of bread by now is a pan of mush.

And since we market a lot of hope on these boards, you get a lot of encouragement. Heavens, we ALL want to see you win!

What the Harleys say is: you do this, this, and this -- and you have the best chance of recovering the marriage. If you don't, at least you'll minimize your own pain and be best prepared for divorce.

I know. I wanted my marriage as much as anyone on the board -- but what I got was the second alterative. I minimized my own blood-letting, and came out as well as could be expected in a bloody situation. I skipped the screaming and yelling scenes, I saved a good deal of my own energy, and now I wouldn't take him back on a platter. That is a "happy ending" on MB. Just not the one I wanted. Often, we are trying to recover what is unrecoverable.

I don't know if yours is. Why don't you try calling Harley and having a single session, and get his take on what you should do now?

At this point, we're all guessing. You've toyed with the recipe, and I don't think any of us know how you can make this into a cake again. Call the chef.

gc:

I'm all for calling a shovel a shovel, but really even "bank robber" is describing a bad choice, not necessarily an evil person.

But it's certainly possible that, afer all this time we've been M'd, and yes, all the time she was an adulterer, ...well, she just might be more "herself" with RM than with me.

In that case, I can accept that as her choice, and choose a different path for myself. It's the inability or lack of desire 2 make the choice that bothers me most.

And I'm pointing fingers in both directions. I'm saddened by her lack of choosing, and ashamed of myself for not getting out long before now.

-ol' 2long

Cherished:

My W and I probably spend a lot more than 15 hours a week 2gether, though not all of that one-on-one. And obviously not much of it on recovery.

-ol' 2long

AMM:

I'm planning a preliminary call 2 a Harley-trained coach either 2morrow, or sometime next week, depending on my schedule at work.

-ol' 2long

Okay...

Here's what I "learned" - state-of-the-M-wise - from this week's experience:

My W hasn't let go of her need for RM - she hasn't "changed her mind" about what she needs and made a commitment 2 one or the other R like she said she "unders2d" last September.

Never mind whether there's contact or no or whether her question last week was 2 legitimize it. The point is she's not at a place where she can exclusively commit 2 me and work on our relationship.

I also learned that I'm dwelling again, and though I don't fully understand the suggestion that I'm still a CAer, I do recognize that my W is, and that my attempts 2 educate her were pointless.

I do realize now that my expectations (which I believed I no longer had) are feeding my frustrations, which are causing me 2 DJ in a roundabout manner, but DJ nonetheless. And that feeds back and exacerbates (won't I go blind?) my frustration, making it much worse than it would be if I just "shut up, already"... ...which is frustrating because I don't WANT 2!...

So, I think I've learned some things. I still "hope it matters" but I realize that's an expectation, 2. And so, I'll work on changing my focus so I don't expect so much no more from my W, who's not in a position 2 fullfil them now anyway, assuming she ever will or should.

Stuff like that,
-ol' 2long

This is all well and good, 2long -- but as often happens on your threads, all the "action" is taking place inside your own head. That makes it easy to get mixed up with wishful thinking, vague hopes, and other kinds of imagination -- if not now, later.

Something needs to happen OUT THERE, in real life. And it's not happening.

Some have recommended Plan B (probably including me, earlier) -- but Plan B is part of a strategy to end an affair and recover your marriage. If she's not in touch with RM, I'm not sure it applies. However half-hearted and for whatever reasons, WW has decided to stay in the marriage. The MB strategy -- Plan A followed by Plan B -- gets the WS out of this half-hearted thing by upping the ante. That process has been short-circuited.

Hope you aren't cancelling the plan to talk to the Mr. Harley.

AMM:

I think that's it. If I seek "help" at this point in time, it should be 2 stop the action in my haid.

Nothing needs 2 happen out there at all, if I can get 2 the point that I have no more scenario-rehashing going on in my head. I don't want 2 be nailing jello 2 walls anymore.

Again, I suspect there's contact, but that's stuff in my haid again, and it doesn't matter what I think if I'm not being told anything and it's just my assumptions.

I *do* know that she hasn't detached from RM, for whatever reason. And I do know that's something I won't put up with in a marriage indefinitely.

Let me tie off the fiscal obligations I feel 2ward myself and my family. That should not take more than a year. And maybe if I stop expecting results and let my W alone 2 figure her ****** out, well, maybe someday she'll do it. With or without me doesn't matter 2 me at this point in time, so it'll probably matter even less in a year.

I'm not sure plan B isn't appropriate in a sitch where the WS isn't WSing, just pining. But I could be wrong.

Oh dear. Meeting!

-ol' 2long

Aw, c'mon, 2long! Reality does matter, at least a little.




See what I mean? Reality does matter.

I do think you put too much energy in thinking about houses, financial situations, IRSs etc. -- and not enough about boundaries.

Affairs hurt. They hurt financially, too. They cost everyone, including innocent parties. Fact of life.



I'm not either. That's why I'll be curious as to what Monsieur Harley says.

2,

I agree with AMM. These two sentences in particular are diametrically opposed:

'Again, I suspect there's contact, but that's stuff in my haid again, and it doesn't matter what I think if I'm not being told anything and it's just my assumptions.

I *do* know that she hasn't detached from RM, for whatever reason. And I do know that's something I won't put up with in a marriage indefinitely.'

Of course, everyone between Sol and Puppis HD 69830 (get it?) could agree with AMM and it would not make any difference in your sitch or mine.

IMO it’s not withdrawal. It’s much more integrated. The LTAs fundamentally changed both our W’s into people we would not M if we met them now – not me anyway. They certainly wouldn't marry us if they met us now, I'm sure. So what do we do? I have no clue. For me, it’s probably best to just wait it out until D is convenient (if ever) or she somehow finds her way back to who she used to be more than a decade ago. Well, not who she used to be, exactly, but someone I would want to M again, at least.

I don’t know which is easier or which is better. Still thinking.

Confusing…erg…

With prayers,

PS: AMM, how’s the job search going? Well, I hope.

Exactly. And that is why it is up to you to decide what you want your life to look like. What is it that both of you want?

Is it a legacy? Is it that you want, until the bitter end, to honor the vows you made?

What is it that you want, and what is it that you want your life to look like, to be like...who are you?

That is after all the fundamental question for all of us.

What is it that we want, because lord knows, we are not going to get that from another person...we can only give it, we cannot order it up, from someone else.

Neither one of your wifes are going anywhere, that has already been determined.

So where are you going? and what is it that you want?

Let's first of all be clear on that.

Have you both paid your dues? Have you atoned? Have you changed into the people you weren't before...when you should have been?

Have you suffered enough?

I am all for both of you getting your wives back on board, if that is what you want...and yes I think it is.

But be clear. Wishy washy isn't going to cut it.

If you don't know, how will your wives know?

Take with a grain of salt, cuz I am in a mood.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Take with a grain of salt, cuz I am in a mood.

Weaver, I like the one you were in yesterday. Can we change you back?

SS

I hate to see people hurting, and I know they are hurting.

owwwch...

Appy, Weaver:

EXACTLY.

...that solved everything, now didn't it!?

Really, it's been my biggest internal struggle (and my struggle here all this time).

Related: I was just reading through my emails from a year ago, that I'd sent 2 counselor1 when I was considering coaching with her back then, and when our visit with the mediator occurred and my W was going 2 her OOSP for her class and yada yada yada...

It was amazing. In all those paragraphs in about 6 emails from me, I would probably only have 2 change a few words or sentences or specific dates... ...and I could send them now and pretty accurately describe my sitch now.

Nothing changes.

And if there's something I don't have expectations about, it's that anything will change. And that's because I can't address my W's need 2 change (this whole thread underscored that, yet again!), I can only address my reasons for my apparent inaction or stuckedness or whatever label you prefer.

In many ways, I think, combining the best advice I've gotten while here at MB, and particularly those about my vents yes2rday (with perspective re-looks at the earlier "good" emails 2 my W), my goals for coaching, if I do it, are clear:

Change my way of thinking. Change my focus. Focus on what I want my fu2re 2 look like and go there. I need 2 move away from M-rebuilding and concentrate on 2long-building.

Every time I get sucked back in2 the drama here and butt heads with my W or try 2 nail jello 2 a wall, my work performance suffers as a result... And my job is FUN.

...and Appy, if you know of magic bullets 2 kill LTA residuals, be sure 2 let me know. (knowing full well that there is no such bullet).

anyhoo,
-ol' 2long

Talk about "what you resist, persists"!

Mine not only persisted, it's vir2ally identical 2 itself a year ago!

-ol' 2long

"...and Appy, if you know of magic bullets 2 kill LTA residuals, be sure 2 let me know."

I do, actually. It is a plain ordinary bullet, but it had OM’s name on it. I either used it or put it somewhere safe. Can’t remember which off the top of my head.

More seriously, nuclear exposure and confronting OM. Drove him off like a, what, vampire in the sun?

I told him he could have her, but that I was going to talk to his wife first.

He crapped his pants and choked.

FWW still pursued him for six or so months, until nuclear exposure by an unknown third party - then he threatened to file a harassment suit. So did his wife. FWW finally started to act remorseful after that. Not much but some. Off and on. And getting better.

Sometimes late at night I really do think FWW and OM deserve each other.

I know his BW and I deserve much better.

Knowing this keeps me a little saner than I would be otherwise. I think. Am I sane?


With prayers,

Appy:

How the he11 should I know!!??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

Well, 2, I've long thought everyone is insane except you and me. But lately I've been wondering about me.

Well, I like that idea, 2long. Tell your wife she can have contact with RM after you discuss it with him and his new wifey-poo. I bet wifey-poo will go for it in a big way.

Aphelion: No bites yet, but some nibbles. It's very frustrating, and I'm near the end of my rope. I get the feeling they invite me in from curiosity.

Spacecase, if you happen 2 still be reading, here's what I realized, as "great truths"


*If my W "gets it", then she gets it.
*If my W doesn't get it, she doesn't get it.
*If I Leave the M, then I leave the M.
*If I don't leave the M, then I don't leave the M.
*If I want 2 worry, I can worry.
*If I decide not 2 worry about [censored] then I can not worry about [censored].

"2uick as you can, snatch the pebble from my hand!"

<snatch!>

"Want 2 try for 2 out of 3?"


Sound about right, SC? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long