My wife wants to leave me after 12 yrs of marriage because she says she got married to young and wants some independence.
She lived with parents, then with boyfriend for 2 or 3 years then met me, got pregnant with our first child and then we got married after about a year.
She says she's never been on her own to make her own decisions and says that I have always made her feel dumb or under my control and she just wants to be free to make her own decisions and not have to check in all the time.
I recognise this now and I am trying to be less controlling but I have always been worried about her going out and finding someone else, but now as I look back she has never lied to me about anything, never stayed out late, never went anywhere I didn't know about etc....its just when she is out sometimes my imagination runs wild with, where is she? why isnt she home yet...as you can see I'm very insecure, I was married before and stopped loving my 1st wife after 8 years together and had no desire to continue the marriage with her.I even cheated on her because I didn't feel "Married anymore". I checked out of that marriage for the same reason my wife is now giving me.
I always lived at home, always had a girlfreind, or lived with a girl then got married and I wanted to be free to make my own decisions and come and go as I pleased.
The only differance was she had a daughter from a previous marriage and couldn't have kids anymore...she was 8 years older than me.
I never wanted to be with anyone else when we were married and only cheated because I was really confused with all of my feelings and after the PA I realized I wasn't looking for another women, I just wanted to be free.
I didn't even date for a long time because thats not what I wanted.
So I kind of understand where W is coming from here.

My current wife told me that she would tell me if there was someone else in her life because thats just the way she is.
I give her a lot of credit for being smart because as her family and freinds have told me, she doesn't want another man in her life she just wants to know that she can feel free to come and go whenever she feels like it and not be under a microscope all the time...I totally understand this but I love her so much and worry about her because I'm afraid someone will come along and try to steel her love from me.
Thats the reason she says "I make her feel dumb" because I don't trust her to make her own decisions and stay away from trouble.
I have read many posts on here and have started EN and stopped all LB but I need some advice, maybe from the ladies.
Has anyone else here been in that situation and actually stayed with there husbands?
She has never talked to anyone other than me or her family.
As far as I can tell there is no EA's or Pa's going on and her freinds and family love her to the point of wanting her to do whatever she thinks is right but all of them have told her that they can't give her any advice because they think I am a good father, good husband and good provider for my family and we have 3 wonderfull kids who are very happy.
She told me in Oct of 2005 that she was unhappy and wanted to find an appartment for her and the kids because she would be totally lost without her kids and they would be lost without there mom but she also knows that they wont want to leave daddy either.
I begged, cried, pleaded for her to reconsider staying but she said she couldn't so after 1 month of begging her to stay, helping out around the house and with the kids and doing things for her etc. I told her that we could stay together untill after Christmas and get along fine for the sake of the kids and then after Jan 1st, she would either go to MC with me and try to make M work or start looking for an apartment right away and not to give me excuses about being to busy etc.
You know I gave her an ultimatum...I know ,I know, big mistake right, well I didnt have MB back then so I didn't know what else to do.
I got mad at her once and told her some mean things that hurt her very much and she asked me why I was being so mean and I told her that, her leaving was hurting me and this was very hard on me and she said that she thought we were getting along good and working on things.
So we continued on getting along but I never really talked to her about things and really didn't try to work on things like I am willing and able to do now, so in march of 2006 she said she is feeling so lost and trapped. The reason she stayed is because she coulldn't hurt me or the kids that way but if she stayed here she was hurting herself and couldn't see doing that to herself.
She says she is just so confused and lost.
Then I found MB and started to apply what I have learned and Here I am.
She says she cares about me so much but she doesn't say ilu anymore.
We've always had a bad lack of communication in our marriage and I'm trying to show her that she can trust me to talk to her about things, without dj's.
She has complained for years that I don't do anything around the house "chores" and she is so right about that.
She has been a sahm for 10 years and just recently went back to work.
I never supported her working like I should have and I've told her I am so sorry for that and we talk about her work all the time.
I love her so much and I want us to be happy but I need someone to give me that old MB 2x4 once in a while.
Thank you guys so much for working this websight.
I work mon-fri 7-5 and i am writing this on a sat.
I'm online at work only not at home so I read this sight all day long.

Well, my advice would be to continue what you're doing. Work on eliminating the LBs and fulfilling the ENs.

Try to spend one-one-one time with her - not necessarily talking about the relationship, but asking her opinion about things and sending the message that you respect her intelligence.

Neediness is unattractive - comes across as controlling and smothering.

My advice would be to reassure her that you want to stay married and keep the family intact - that it would be the best thing for all of you, and that you're learning a lot about your first marriage and this one too, as well as the mistakes you may have made.

Being a sahm for that long, and not being gainfully employed can eventually undermine a woman's self confidence and conjure up feelings of being trapped and 'over a barrel'. I can say this, because I'm in the same boat...

Working again may be giving her some much-needed confidence and a taste of desire for having more control in her life. If that were the case, wouldn't it be more appealing to you as her husband to have her wanting to stay married out of choice rather than financial necessity?

And by the same token - wouldn't you feel badly if the only reason for her staying had to do with not being employed and able to support herself and the kids?

It's something to think about, you know?

All that being said, I think it's been mentioned here before that working on improving your marriage at least one month for every year you've been married - earnestly working on it, is reasonable. With the circumstances of having children, I would think the amount of months would increase. You may want to talk to her about that. If the marriage does go under, you both are going to want to be able to tell the kids what you did to work on it, true? I think she will agree that the well being of the kids is worth the effort.

In the meantime, I would encourage her to get enough sleep, go to the gym, see some female friends once or twice a month... Praise her in front of her family, the kids, anyone whose esteem she values. Brag about her cooking, what a good job she's done with the kids, and again - ask her point of view/opinion on topics of importance. Tell jokes or funny stories. Make it your mission to make her smile or laugh everyday. Make being in your company a pleasure. It is important that she feels good about herself in your company. She may subconsciously connect the two, and that would be a good thing.

Women like to talk. They like to express themselves. If you are the type to cut her off or show disinterest, she will probably find another source to fulfill that need. It might be female friends, her mother, or someone of the opposite sex you would rather she not spend time with...

Women don't necessarily need their problems solved. Many times they just need validation and/or a hug and reassurance that everything is going to be alright. Women know when they are being patronized, so use her opinions; apply them from time to time, and be genuine.

Sincere apologies and admitting when you've screwed up will strengthen your marriage, but apply what you've learned and remind her that you're trying to be a better husband because you want the marriage to be stronger and for everything to be the way it should be for the whole family but especially for her.

Just my .02. Take it for what it's worth, and good luck.

Sooly

Oh soolee,
Thank you so much for the ideas...I can tell you that I have been a major LB for a long time and am just now starting to understand it all.
Your right on with what you just said, I do make jokes everyday and can see she is in a tough time right now because she does have problems sleeping, eating etc. and I tried to assure her that either way she will be alright and I am now starting to listen to her more without cutting her off. I have been making her laugh everyday and not talking one bit about "our relationship" and now she seams to be real confused with her feelings. But I dont really know, now do I.
She was real tired last night and just laying on the couch and her sister called and told her to come out dancing for a while and she said "I dont know, I dont want anybody to be mad" and I told her she shouldn't worry about me anymore and just go.
Today (Saturday) I had to work in the morning and when I got home she said "I just had somebOdy ask me on a date"
I said where ya going and she said "dont you want to know who asked me out?...Because I have been so insecure in the past....and I said yea and she said "T" one of her girlfreinds and she told me where they wanted to go and then said "are you mad" and I looked her in the eyes and told her I was not ever going to be mad again about her going out and that I could see the twinkle in her eyes when she told me about "the date" and thats what now makes me happy"..."that seeing her smile again and excited about something was worth it"
I told her "I trust you completely and that I have been a fool in the past for ever doubting you and I'm sorry for making you feel that way. Old "bad habits" from previous marriage that should not have carried over into this marriage. I told her that "I love you so much and thats all that matters to me now". that nothing else she says or does is gonna change that ever again. Then I said "I'm gonna be honest with you from now on"
I said "I am sad because I like being with her and I hope someday she will allow me to go out with her so I can show her that I can have a good time too without wondering if she is looking at someone else etc". I have been way to insecure in the past and I said "besides if you do end up leaving you will have neither the money or the time to do much going out" and she just shook her head and said yea"
I now realize that she never wanted anything except for us to be happy and have fun and I lost track of that.
I told her "I was sorry for making her feel that way for all these years and that I am working on my insecurities and that she will have to get used to just doing what she wants to do without "the guilt" from me because I am cocentrating on one thing and thats "bettering myself" for me, her and our children.
She seamed so happy and then for the rest of the day I just kept talking about other things and not dwelling on her going out or sulking about it, (A GREAT BIG LOVE DEPOSIT)
Me thinks......
She actually sat next to me on the love seat just about all day and when she left she walked up to me and just stood before me and said "I'm leaving" and I jumped up and she gave me a great big hug and I kissed her goodbye.
Before she would just say goodbye and kinda wave to me unless I made her give me a hug...now she just came to me for a hug.
I try to tell her ILU all the time and give her hugs and lately she has been holding onto me longer than I hold her so I'm getting great signs but I will take your advice and keep this up for as long as it takes and not expect anything in return.
Oh yea and this morning I told her she could do anything she wants to do and that "nothing" was gonna stop me from loving her and she said "thank you".
Before I would say these things and ask "what do ya think?" now I just say them and keep rambling on so she knows I'm not waiting for a response and now when I say ILU I dont wait for a response I just say ILU...have a nice day at work etc.
I just go on and on and on sorry soolee.
See ya all on Monday
All you wonderfull ladies out there "HAVE A GREAT AND HAPPY MOTHERS DAY"

Just a note to some of you out there.
I started out reading PaulD's posts and went back to a year ago when his ordeal started and I can see what a wonderfull guy he is and the good things he has done and the mistakes he might have made and I want you to know that you are my inspiration because you have stuck by this girl through more than most people I know would have and I still have hope for you Paul because as I'm starting to see that this takes time. I have been married and doing it wrong for 5,6,or 7 years now so it might be a long road for me. But PaulD...you have taught me so much and I truly thank you.
Thanks to all who posted to PaulD too because you are the ones doing the teaching.

That's all so great to hear, JSlost. Just remember that eliminating the LBs and fulfilling the ENs are supposed to be permanent, postive changes in your relationship skills. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Your goal here is to be a better partner from now until the end, but the sweet bonus of learning all these skills is that they have the potential of carrying over to your relationships with your kids and anyone else you really care about.

Keep up the good work. I sense that she needs your support and patience, your continued affirmations of love and willingness to pick up the slack, and to allow her some freedom and respect that apparently she might not have been feeling. Maybe it is just my observation and nothing more, but it seems as though it would take a lot for her to step outside the marriage and go against her vows. Regardless, I think the biggest mistake any of us can make with our spouses is to take them for granted because it plants a seed of discontent and resentment that can grow and choke out the love they feel for us.

Sometimes because we've been living with someone for what seems like forever, we start to think they can read our minds and 'feel' our gratitude or just 'know' our love for them. That's just not the way love stays alive.

You're doing well! Keep it up!!

Sooly

I agree with Sooly. It won't work if you approach this the way you say it in the title. It won't work if you change to get her to stay. You have to change because you want to be a better person. And hope that she will want to stay with the person that you want to become.

So strive to be the best you. For you. And let her worry about whether that you is a good partner for her.

Good luck.

Thank you hold,
I'm doing pretty good, considering the situation I'm in.
I really do want to be a better person, and every day that I do the things you have been telling me to do, I feel even better about myself.
I figure, like you say, if I'm a better person, husband and father then she might just find some interest in that and decide to stay, but either way, I will feel much better about myself, even if it don't work out.
I'm using the advice I'm getting here and I can definatly see a differance in her and me...
Just trying to stay strong.
Thank you so much for the boost.

My mil just replied to an e-mail I sent her...Here it is...
Any Ideas?
Anybody








Hi JSlost,
Sorry I didn't get back to you right away. I don't check my e-mail very
often. I don't have any ideas for you. I've talked alittle to W
and she
still hasn't changed her mind about leaving. The terrible thing about
marriages when their in trouble, is this has been going on for years.
Let me
start from the beginning. When W fell in love with you, this is
just
what she wanted, husband, kids, and a family that she could dedicate
herself
to and she had. Then problems started, she would talk to me about how
to
work threw issues with you. She would try different things, to get you
to
talk to her about them, but just like W now, you didn't want to
work on
them, but she hang in there thinking things would get better some how.
All
the nights she went to bed crying, wanting your support and help and
didn't
get it. Guess you were in denial at the time that anything was wrong.
She's
kept all this bottled up inside of herself, frustrated that she
couldn't get
you to see how frustrated she was, that she was telling you how she
felt and
you didn't what to cope with anything at the time. Well now it's built
up so
bad, that she has lost respect for you. The dream she had of a
supportive
husband, father, partner, friend and lover has been crushed! Now you
see the
problems and want to work on them, and it's to late for W. I
couldn't
tell you for sure when she does leave, that in time she'll be able to
sort
threw alot of her feeling towards you, and you'll be able to get back
together. I don't know!! By then you might want to work on getting back
together. I don't know that either. I do know that she wants you to be
very
involved with the kids as well as her. She really doesn't want to hurt
you
or the kids. This isn't going to easy on any of you. W is very
upset
about how to tell the kids and how to apporach this and what to say.
That's
never easy and there doesn't ever seem like there is enough words. Both
of
you need to talk about this, how to talk to the kids, what to say, how
you
want to proceed from here, and how both of you can see the kids and
keep
them stable.
I do love you and I'am sorry it has came to this. Like all parents, you
always want your kids marriage to work, you don't ever want to see this
happen, it's not going to be easy on any of you. It's heart breaking.
Love you,
mil

I am so very very sorry for what I have done to my loving w and what I didn't do.
I only hope that I can change my ways so I can save my marriage and make her so happy again.
I love her so much
Thank you

Hi JSlost.

I can relate to what you're W is saying about doing more "chores."

I can relate in some level to your "insecurities." I felt some fear that my W will feel similar to your--to live on their own, just to see. My wife said she never had to live on her own.

From speaking with my wife, and experiencing almost 4 full days with 3 kids, it is mentally exhausting.

The tasks are easy, and can even me made efficient wtih planning. Wake up, change for school, drop of school, do chores, do lunch, pick up kids, feed kids, activity, homework, do dinner, bedtime routine... Yep, it's easy as far as task... this routine started at 6am to 10pm. Extra wake up time because I needed to feed the baby every 4 hours at the time.

But working in a job 8 hours a day, the worry of continued tasks stops after you clock out. With kids and the household, you're on the clock all waking hours, and on call during sleep.

Even when I did the house cleaning, which I thought was a lot--the 8 loads of laundry takes time. The setting up of doctor's appointment, the meal preparations, the lunch bags and snacks, the checking of homework, the pta meetings, the kid's social activities, the kid's extra activities-- all takes time.

Then ofcourse, here I am thinking I'm the bread winner--making mad cash to buy luxury for the family. Well, I can pursue such a career because I am not stressing a lot back home, I had more energy to be a productive worker because I trusted my wife to take care of everything else back home.

This is where the trust and insecurity issues. How come I still feel insecure that some other guys with better qualities than me can meet my wife and my wife will be swept of her feet?

I really look back at our history--we know each other 20 years and she has not given me any reason to doubt her faithfulness. So the problem is with me, my insecurity, my self-esteem.

MB can help you learn to speak these with her, but hopefully you can also begin to listen to what you say and "trust" your logic. I am still struggling to trust my logic because I feel insecure still.

JM,
I have been doing more around the house, laundry, cleaning, kids backpacks, homework, cooking, dishes, etc. and there have been times when w says, "all this work you are doing is getting a little annoying, why dont you take a break?)
I said,,,"I haven't felt this good about myself in a long time, I feel like a part of this family again and it makes me feel wonderfull".
W says "now I know how you used to feel when I was running all over doing these things and you used to ask me to just sit down".
I said " I'm so sorry for not helping you aroung here before".
I used to ask her what she needed me to do and told her "just ask me to do whatever it is you need to have done"
She said "You should know"
Now I'm starting to realize that her job was neverending and there is always a ton to do around the house, plus she has to buy kids clothes, winter coats, spring jackets, oh my gosh the list goes on and on and on.
Why was I that stupid?
Why didn't I help this women before?
Yesterday I printed more stuff off of this websight and I was in our bedroom reading and she walked in and said "whats all that"
I said this is my therapy...free of charge and went on to tell her more about this sight and that I'm trying to figure out what was wrong with me before and how I can be a better father and husband through all of this.
I said " I just want to learn how to be strong and supportive for you when you leave so I can help you and our children get through all of this and to understand what changes I need to make so you can trust me to be able to here you when you talk.
I said that our marriage has not been that fun for me either because of all the tension I created for you and I forgot the important things in life, like how to talk about things to get a solution instead of making excuses for my shortcomings or blaming whatever, She just listened to me and looked a little sad and I told her that we needed to discuss a lot of things and that I am trying to learn how to listen and not give advice and that if she wanted to try and talk about things I would just listen to her and not try to fix everything all of the time.
I said I can't go on being this same person that, even I don't like and that I wanted change for her and I.
I said , I like the way you've changed and I never set out to be the person I am right now anyway and that our marriage is not the way I pictured married life for us.
I said I will wait for her no matter what and stand behind her decission to leave if thats what it takes because I love her and I love the family we have together and I dont ever want her to doubt that.
After that we just watched tv together in the bedroom for about 2 hours and we had a few laughs and we talked about her work and just made small talk. Our oldest son was in the other room watching wrestling and of course during the commercials he would run in the room and jump on me and her and try to wrestle and we laughed our butts off at him.
Gosh how I hope I don't lose all of this.

Is there any information on this websight on how to talk to your children about seperation?

What to say, What to do,

I hope it doesn't come to this but my mil said in an e-mail that w and I need to discuss how we are going to discuss all of this with our children.

I've got so many questions about all of this and thought this would be the best place to ask.

Anybody been down that road before?
Thank You

Last night I told w that I was learning about all of the mistakes that I made in the past and that I was working real hard at trying to fix myself.
And I said that I knew it was gonna take a long time for her to trust me that I have "changed my ways". And that I understood all of that and will wait.

I also said that it was ok if she was still planning on leaving me and that all I wanted her to know is that I love her and the kids very much and that I will work on "me" for as long as it takes for her to see a change for the better.

She just said "thats sounds good" but now when we are together she still seems a little preocupied but when I leave in the morning for work she does stop what she is doing and gives me a hug and I give her a kiss on the cheak.

I have been doing this all along and she knows I will do it and she does hug me back but today she hugged me extra long and I kissed her on the cheek, like I always do and then held her face to mine and kissed her quickly on the lips and she just smiled back at me and said "have a good day at work.

What does all of this mean? is it good or bad?

I really think I found this websight in the nick of time but how do I know if she is doing all of this because she still loves me as a person but not as a husband?

Should I tell her tonight that I want to do everything in my power to save this marriage or just keep doing what I'm doing?
Did I make a mistake when I said "I know you may still have to leave"

Somedays I feel good about everything and then my mind starts wandering around with the thought of what if?

I call her every day at work to ask her how her day is going and she always seems happy to talk to me and usually I make her laugh during the conversation but she never calls me at work.

What do I do now? What do I say?
Do I tell her that seperation is out of the question as far as I'm concerned or just keep to the plan of EN and elim LB and not talk about that at all to her?

Sometimes I feel really confident about all of this and other times I am still scared to death about whats going on in her mind.

I know in my heart that I will do everything in my power to keep her because I love her so much and because we are so alike in so many ways.

I think you are doing great, and your wife's reaction is quite hopeful.

I would hold off on more talks. And just keep doing what you are doing. You are not going to win her back with words. You are going to win her back by consistently behaving the way you are now. So that over time she learns it is real and not an act. Only then will she trust that there is a new you. One she can feel safe with.

Post deleted by JSlost

JS,

I think you need to take a deep breath. From what I can gather about your W it does sound like she's not involved physically with anyone. However .... that doesn't mean she isn't comparing you to other men. Your neglect has made that possible.

The best you can do is continue to work on you. Continue to do the things you're sure she wants from you.

Have you done any reading? I'd highly suggest reading 3 books.

His needs/ Her needs
&
Lovebusters (both written by Dr. Harley)
&
The 5 love languages by Gary Chapman

The first two books come highly recommended by posters. I myself took so much from the 5 love languages I bought the book The 5 love languages of children.

Hopefully as some help to you what I see is that your W wants your respect. She wants you to quit disrespecting her by being controlling. She wants you to respect that she can be an independant woman yet still come home to you.

Right now she may be conflicted because she's hurt and feels disrespected. For people who have been hurt some will choose to "fight" others will choose "flight". Seeing your W was young when she married she feels like she missed out or was cheated of a life. She wants to leave this hurtful life behind and fly to a new, happier world. Your W can have that life even while she's married to you. You have to help her achieve that. You have to give up control and let her run her own life.

MA,

Thanks you for the "deep breath" I don't know how you guys all do this but thank you, thank you, thank you.

My heart is still racing..
usually when i get panicky like this I just go to this websight and read as much as I can, but the unknown is killing me.
I'll either check the local library or the book stores for those books you suggested.

I've printed out tons of pages from here and I read love busters and emotional needs when I'm getting upset and it usually helps...(there at home and I'm at work).

My w and I never fought and still dont and I know she loves me and usually its easy for me to be happy and on the go but the last few days I just keep crashing when I'm not around her.

Not knowing the outcome is very frightening

Anyway...thank you so much.
J

What does this mean?
ok I know you guys cant get in my wife's head...(to bad by the way), but this morning I was talking to her on the phone at work and when I said goodby I said "I Love you" and she said "love you to"
Now we always used to say this to one another when we were getting off the phone but she hasn't said ilu in a couple of months or more.
I always say it to her but she never says anything back, like ok, or you too, etc.

Last week when I left for work I said "I love you" (like I always do) and she said "you to"

Seems to me that she might have just kinda slipped up but she has been very carefull not to say this to me for a long time.

So what do you think?

1 mistake?
2 maybe having some feelings for me
3 more comfortable around me?
4 she loves me?
5 old habit?

Any thoughts
J

Any thoughts from anyone?

OK, I'll give it a shot.

I have no idea what your wife's statement means. She may not even know herself. Whatever it means, I wouldn't waste another minute trying to figure that out. I would get on with working on yourself.

My suggestion: do not monitor your wife's behavior or the state of your marriage on a daily or even a weekly basis. I did that for years and it drove me crazy. Do not obsess on any one statement or action and search for clues as to your wife's intentions. Rarely does any one statement or action possess great importance.

What matters is consistency over long periods of time. Yours and hers. If you become the best person you can be. And you sustain that over a long period of time. Your spouse can then trust that the "new you" is for real. Then they can decide whether they want to be married to the "new you". Similarly, if you wait a while, you will discover the "truth" behind the conversations and incidents that seemed confusing when they occurred. Don't waste energy analyzing. Focus on doing. All will become clear in time.

ditto on Hold's post.