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#1659680 05/13/06 07:59 PM
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A Strategic Plan For Newly Betrayed Spouses:

Lately, a lot of new betrayed spouses have come here to MB and their posts show they don’t have any idea of what to do next. Dr. Harley’s overall plan is clear to anyone who reads Surviving An Affair and reads the various threads out here, but it’s hard to take everything in all at once. I hope this will give newly arrived MB’ers a place to start. I’m open to comments and all kinds of constructive criticism. Y’all let me know where I’ve strayed off message and I’ll edit, okay?


***********************************************************************

To The Newly Betrayed Spouse:

It is sad to see you here because the reason you've come is your spouse is committing adultery. The good news is you can rescue your marriage and even make it better than it was before. It takes hard work, sacrifice, time, and a huge measure of patience, but you’ve taken the most important step already by coming to MarriageBuilders.com (MB). Welcome, betrayed spouse.

You’re confused, shocked to the core and your pain is terrible. We know. Most of the folks here on MB have gone through exactly what you are facing now. Those experienced folks have used MB principles to get through this and know those precepts work.

The curious thing is that most adulteries resemble each other very, very closely. The words your wayward spouse will use, his or her actions, attitudes, and indeed, the things they believe they are experiencing are all almost exactly what other wayward spouses have done before them. That similarity allows for a general plan, like the one below, to work again and again with a minimum of tinkering.

A good thing to do is start a journal to record everything that happens from this moment forward. Make particular note of the times your wayward spouse spends away from your home and your children, the times you can document he or she is with the other person, the times WS went out for unexplained reasons, worked undocumented overtime, etc., etc. Add (dated) entries to your journal at regular intervals, if not daily. It should be a physical one (a wire-bound notebook works just fine) as opposed to a virtual one. Write it out neatly in longhand. Be factual and include times and dates.

Partners in adultery think the little fantasy world they’ve built up is wonderful place, always warm and rosy, special, and incredibly unique. Wayward spouses speak the same language and what one says, another will sooner or later. “If you think our problems have anything to do with her/him, you’re badly mistaken,” is an oldie, but goodie.

There may be something about having found their soul mate, the one they’ve been searching for all their life. Oh…by the way…they’ve never been happy with you. They’ll tell you that. Guess what? The marriage with you has been a sham for the last (insert number) years…or, sometimes, since the beginning. Here’s one that spews from their mouth quite often. “I never loved you…or haven’t loved you for (insert number of years)…. but I want to stay friends with you so the children won’t be hurt.”

Since you love the wayward spouse--you married him or her, after all--you should see their happiness is paramount and undeniable. You need to help them with the adultery, not hinder it. They will actually be upset when you don’t.

Any of that sound familiar? You may have heard it already. If not, you almost certainly will sooner or later.

Think of your spouse in his or her present condition as someone who has been absorbed by an alien from a mother ship hovering over your hometown. Aliens have only rudimentary skills at thinking, you know. There’s no reasoning with them right now. No amount of explanation from you on how wrong he or she is about your past marriage will sink in. Don’t bother trying.

Your spouse will pile lies on top of lies whenever you ask anything about what is going on. Expect it. Get used to it. It’s what adulterers do; it’s the only way such an obscene thing as infidelity can be carried on. Your spouse will, as Grandma used to say, lie when the truth would serve them better.

The first thing you need to do is order the book Surviving An Affair (SAA) by Dr. Willard Harley. When you get it, study it well. Don’t just read it--study it. There are articles here on MB excerpted from the book and they are excellent reads. They can be found in the “Most Popular Links” in the upper right of every MB page.


********

Important note: Counseling with the Harleys is available from links on the website. Your best source of a comprehensive, detailed plan customized just for you will be from them. If you can afford it, do it.

********

If you cannot, there are things you can do while you wait for the book. Most importantly, you can begin drafting a plan for marital recovery. SAA will help you do exactly that. There are a few essentials you can begin working on while you wait for that book to be delivered. Here is a summary of the things that should be part of your plan.

Step 1: Military-grade operation to develop intelligence on whether your spouse is involved in an adulterous relationship. There is a thread out here on MB dedicated to exactly that.

Your spouse may have already admitted to committing adultery. You might think this step is unnecessary. Don’t be fooled. If you don’t pay close attention, the adultery will continue long after he or she promises on a stack of Bibles it is over.

What you need to do is gather enough evidence to convince yourself your spouse is committing adultery. It doesn’t have to be much, just concrete enough to show you what is happening. You're not going to trial with rules of evidence; don’t let your spouse talk you into a standard that doesn't apply.

If you need more information, consider reviewing cell phone records, Instant Messaging history, place a digital recorder in your spouse’s car, near home phones, or places your spouse likes to go to take private calls, etc. If you feel you need more and you can afford it, a private investigator can gather a lot of irrefutable proof in a short period.

Step 2: Confront your wayward spouse with the fact you know about the adultery and ask your spouse to stop. Generally speaking, you don’t explain how you know though you will have to give out a couple of facts that will strike a chord with them. They don't have to admit it, many do not, but deep down inside, they need to know they've been busted. You’ll see it in their eyes.

If you know of dates and times where they've met, confront your spouse with that information. If you can imply you know that because the two of them were seen, rather than telling them you actually read in one of their emails, that's all that much better. If you show your wayward spouse those emails (for instance), you've just educated him or her on one breach in the secrecy surrounding the adultery. The wayward spouse will learn and be able to hide the adultery from that point forward much better. Don’t give them that advantage.

In a very few instances, this is all that will be necessary to bring your spouse back home and recommit to the marriage. Usually though, it doesn’t work that smoothly. You’ll hear the “we’re just friends,” phrase a lot of times, along with implications you’re insane to even think such a thing of your loving spouse (it’s called gaslighting, FYI), and denials piled high on denials.

What you have to get across to your wayward spouse is that you have some “boundaries” that aren’t open for debate. The most important is the wayward spouse must break off the relationship and must agree to complete “no contact” (NC) ever again…that means never, period…with the other person (OP). A second might be the wayward spouse finds work in a different company (if the adultery is with a co-worker). Another probably will include couples counseling. Still another should be to read SAA with you and apply the marital recovery techniques (Rules of Protection) in the last half of that book.

Step 3: Since your wayward spouse has not admitted to the infidelity, it’s necessary to expose the existence of the adultery to everyone who can put pressure on the adultery and influence the partners in adultery to end their relationship. You need to begin work now to develop that list. The list may include some or all of the following. It may also include people not on this sample list.

A. If the person your spouse is involved with is married, His or her spouse must be told of the adultery even if your spouse actually terminates the affair and enthusiastically begins to labor long and hard on your marriage the instant you find out about the adultery. The other person’s spouse (OPS) has the right to address the problems in their own marriage.
B. Your spouse’s parents and sometimes your spouse's siblings. Parents can place tremendous pressure on their adulterous offspring. On occasion, they take their children’s part and choose to ignore the adultery, but they often become strong allies in breaking it up.
C. Your children. Guess what? Kids as young as four see and hear…and understand…far more than you think they do. D r. Harley has stressed the importance of making sure children know mom or dad is behaving inappropriately but that mom and dad still love the child. The child must know he or she is NOT the cause of all the tension in the household.
D. Your family. You need allies who can put pressure on the adultery and your family members can do that. They may be able to add nothing more than disapproving glances, but that pressure mounts up.
E. Friends of the family. Same reason as above.
F. Your spouse’s co-workers if the adultery is an “office affair.” (I hate the word affair. It makes a slimy, squalid thing seem less offensive.) Co-workers can apply lots of pressure. They may have suspected before you exposed to them. Now they know for certain.
G. Again, if the adultery began in the office, expose to the spouse’s boss or Human Resources Director. The company may have a policy on inappropriate relationships. If one partner or the other is a supervisor, the company can directly influence the adultery and make it impossible for it to continue.
H. Your pastor or priest. These individuals have tremendous influence in your wayward spouse’s life. Make them your allies.
I. Officers and members of professional associations and social organizations your spouse is in. Few of these tolerate moral turpitude in their membership. Use that to your advantage.
J. Anyone else who can reasonably be expected to be able to put pressure on the adulterous relationship.

Exposure is THE strongest weapon you have at your disposal to smash the adultery. Adultery is part disrespect, part deceit, and part fantasy. It exists in the darkness under rocks. Turn the rock over, shine a brilliant spotlight on the seamy underside, and the roaches begin to scurry away. The lies that are a part of every adultery are revealed for what they are and the fantasy world that includes just the two adultery partners begins to shatter. USE exposure.

When you have your list ready, go to each person and sit down with him or her if you can. It’s good for them to see you troubled, but very calm and steady. It’s very important to be under control. Many wayward spouses will immediately try to gaslight their betrayed spouses and will swear to everyone around the betrayed one is demented to even think the wayward spouse would actually sneak around behind your back. Take a deep breath and launch into a description of what has intruded into your marriage. Don’t wait for the perfect time and place, or the magic words to use. They’ll never come. Don’t tell your spouse you’re going to do expose the obscene adultery to your prospective allies. Just do it.

Oh, by the way, your wayward spouse will be absolutely furious. He or she will shriek imprecations at you, swear he/she was going to work on the marriage but now...oh, boy...now they wouldn't have anything to do with you if you were the last person on the face of the planet, etc. It's all bluster, noise, and drama. They are pissed off because you’ve wrecked the perfect little fantasy world they’ve been indulging themselves with. Let them rant and rave. It means nothing because you know where it’s coming from. Spouses sometimes do leave at this point for a while. If they do, you do NOT support their separate lifestyle in any way. If they leave, the almost invariably come back very quickly because their fantasy isn't supportable without your help.

Look, the purpose of exposure is to bust up the adultery. You are not doing this out of spite; you are not vengeful. Your spouse will see it as such, but it is not. Do not decline to expose because of the embarrassment you may feel about the adultery, and certainly don’t refuse to expose because it might embarrass your spouse.

Important Note: Do NOT shield your spouse from the consequences of his or her adultery. If you do, you give your spouse time and space to reignite the adultery and continue it better hidden than before. If you skip exposure, based on a misplaced “respect” or something that sounds equally noble, you will be condoning the disrespect your spouse has shown the marriage, your children, and you. Remember, adulteries thrive in the darkness. They are fed by lies and deceit. By shining the blinding light of exposure on the adultery, you force everything into sharp focus. The relationship begins to whither.

Step 4: You’ve studied Plan A by now. You know about Love Busters (LB), Disrespectful Judgments (DJ), etc. If the confrontation didn’t end the affair and exposure hasn’t either, Plan A gives you the opportunity to work on yourself and the marriage to show the adulterous spouse what a marriage with you could be like.

By the way, betrayed spouse, your marriage may not have been perfect before. That doesn’t in any way justify the affair. You did NOT cause the affair, but you may not have done everything you could have done to prevent it.

So Plan A lets you work on things you don’t like about yourself. Maybe you’ve put on those extra pounds and you know you’re not as attractive to your spouse as you once were. In Plan A, you begin those workouts you’ve been putting off forever. Your temper gets the best of you sometimes? Find some anger management seminars and learn to control it. You have no way to express yourself? Take up painting, plant a garden, work on your tennis/golf game, start writing that great American novel you know is inside you…whatever.

While you’re working on you, you do nothing to make things worse with your spouse. You don’t even talk relationship with your spouse in this time if he or she doesn't want to. This plan is partly designed to show your spouse you can be one heck of a partner in a revitalized marriage. They will see…but don’t expect kudos from them. Actually, they’ll be more inclined to say something like “I don’t trust these sudden changes. They won’t last.” Another one can be paraphrased as “too little, too late.” Don’t worry about their reluctance to recognize the new you. In their fantasy world, they don’t know what’s good for them and no amount of reasoning will bring them to understand it. Don’t try.

Plan A is a process that has a definite time limit. You do not explain that to your wayward spouse, but you have to decide on a time frame to work on you and show your spouse how good it could be. Women typically work Plan A for about 3 months; men do a Plan A for about 6 months.

Step 5: Plan A sometimes works. Dr. Harley says it doesn’t 85% of the time. Therefore, a Plan A is usually, logically, followed by Plan B. The temptation is to skip Plan A and go straight to Plan B. That doesn’t work in the overwhelming number of cases. You have to build a basis for Plan B so the wayward spouse finds out what he or she will be missing.

In Plan B, you cut off all communication with your wayward spouse. Having shown them how wonderful a person you can be as a marriage partner, you remove yourself from their lives to show them how bad it is out there without you. In Plan A, fence-sitting is almost unavoidable. Your wayward spouse gets some of their emotional needs met by you and others met by the other person. In Plan B, you suddenly, and completely, stop providing those needs you had been filling for your spouse. When they aren’t being met, it increases strife in that fantasy world your spouse and his or her partner in adultery have in common with only each other. Strife begets pressure. Pressure begets unhappiness. Unhappiness begets separation…and you win.

Plan B may require a legal separation or the equivalent in your state. Discuss your needs with an attorney. Get a good one. You need a bull dog to represent you, not someone who goes with the flow.

At this point, if you have not already done so, you need to separate your finances from your wayward spouse’s. Safeguarding your financial situation and making sure your assets cannot be looted by a wayward spouse still in the fog is different for everyone but here are some suggestions.

You can have the current joint credit cards cancelled and new ones issued only in your name. You need to make sure the WS can't drain checking & savings accounts. You might need to establish checking accounts the WS cannot access. Make sure you have access to enough cash/assets to pay the bills, etc. Powers of attorney might need to be looked at, if any are currently in effect. Don’t agree to any new obligations, new second mortgages, new cars, commit to paying WS’s expenses, etc., etc.

Plan B may last as long as another eighteen months.

Step 6: There are no guarantees in life. Sometimes all that you can do doesn’t result in your wayward spouse returning home, becoming repentant, and agreeing to work hard on the marriage. That’s sad, but it’s a fact.

Dr. Harley’s plan has an excellent chance of working if it is applied in a narrow window of opportunity you have after discovery to break up the affair and win your spouse back. Sometimes, though, the wayward spouse becomes entrenched in their adultery and never comes out of the fog.

If, by the end of the second year after confrontation and exposure, your WS hasn’t come home and agreed to work on the marriage, you may have to implement Plan D, a divorce. Sometimes, regretfully, you have to cut your losses and protect yourself and your children. All of us out here sincerely hope it won’t come to this, but it does happen. If it does though, you will have the comfort of knowing you did everything humanly possible to salvage your marriage. You will be able to hold your head high.


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The pros out here on MB are here for no other reason than to help you through this. Most have already gone through what you are just starting and they have come out the other side whole and better than they were before. It can be done and they’ll show you how. You’ll have their help as a support group and the advantage of their expertise.

Are you strong enough to do it? Good. Then get to work. We’re with you.

Last edited by Longhorn; 06/20/06 12:10 PM.
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RESERVED

I've reserved this spot after my friend, Longhorn's, awesome summary to Betrayed Spouses in order to lay out some of my important thoughts and revelations that I have gleaned this past year saving my own marriage. I will be adding things periodically to this post as well as to this thread below (in order to bump it) as time allows me.

First, I wanted to emphasize how important posting to this board can be to you. Because infidelity situations are somewhat generic there are many situations you will face in the coming weeks and months that MANY others herein have faced before you. I'm telling you from experience, YOU CAN NOT just peruse the boards as a "anonymous" lurker hoping to find the right advice for you. I did it, I know. IF I had posted my story I know now that I could have shaved a few weeks off my wife's 3 month affair. The poignant and specifically tailored advice available FREE on these boards is that good.

Consider this....right now you are locked in a battle. You are fighting for your marriage and your family and your wayward spouse is fighting against you/it. Alas the ultimate battle of good versus evil only this time it's personal and it's you. You may think you are smarter than your adulterous spouse (and that's likely true considering how CRAZY they all act) but that aside, it's still just YOU versus THEM (the WS "Wayward Spouse" and OP "Other Person). You've never been in this situation before. I know you can't talk to family and friends and even if you do they will nearly always give you the WRONG advice. I am telling you....IF YOU POST your story and actively solicit advice on these very boards, which are here 24/7 free of charge, it now becomes all of US versus just the 2 of them. Advantage Betrayed Spouse. I was an idiot for NOT taking advantage of it when I first arrived and you'd be an idiot for following my footsteps after I specifically warned you herein. I'M CALLING YOU OUT...don't be an idiot. POST.

By the way, there is substantial FREE legal advice herein as well. I am an attorney (albeit a tax attorney) but not only do attorney's post here but accountants, therapists, marriage counselors and divorcees that have been through the process. A wealth of experience and knowledgable insight awaits you if you'd only join in.

I guarantee you, by merely seeking advice and getting direction and a PLAN you WILL feel so much better, stronger, more grounded and confident. You may just end up feeling in control of YOUR LIFE, which you ARE but I know it just doesn't feel that way right now.

I might have survived the active affair by only reading but my successful marital recovery ONLY happened after my wife and I both dived headfirst TOGETHER into these very Marriage Builder boards you find yourself reading this day. Again, take action, take control and seek guidance herein...you will not regret it. P O S T.

How to do POST?

Very few persons here had EVER got involved in anything on-line before posting here. I'd rarely even chatted or IM'ed before. Do not be shy. You are anonymous and the people here are from all over the world. The chances anyone will ever KNOW who you are (unless you direct them here yourself) are VERY remote.

A few things you should know. Below is a few common MB etiquette concepts of which it is only helpful that your aware of.

1. Start a new thread and succinctly tell your story. Too long, many may avoid it...too brief, they may follow up with questions but at least you are in a dialogue;

1. a. Make sure your signature line includes your statistics like mine below, it conveys a lot right off the bat;

2. Limit YOUR story to one thread;

3. Break up your posts into easy to read paragraphs;

4. Learn the Acronyms in advance by reviewing the summary thread in the Announcement Forum. ;

5. Pick the busiest board for your situation. Surviving an Affair is the most visited and most popular board for active affairs and the Recovery board for those in recovery. There are other boards but since you're on Longhorns thread I assume most of you are new.

6. Have patience. As you post more and more your story will gain momentum and you'll pick up additional people interested in your plight. Weekends are slow but just keep posting and you'll get the help you need eventually.

7. Always attempt to comment on every response you get. Use the individually posters name, thank them, ask follow up questions direct at them AND the board and/or otherwise comment on the advice. You'll be much more successful keeping posters around your thread if you nurture a friendly relationship with them.

Good luck...I am one year out of my wife's affair and pretty much fully recovered my marriage from the depths of despair. I had given up. I thought my wife was GOING to move 750 miles away and leave me and my 5 year old daughter behind to be with her "soulmate". What a difference a year makes. YOU WILL MAKE IT TOO with or without your spouse...that is the only thing I can guarantee you if you stick around AND POST.

Mr. Wondering



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Update to thread 6/1/06

Hello again,

I wanted to insert here a post dealing with the issue of Masculinity that I posted on the GQ II board awhile ago. Although it primarily deals with the BH and Masculinity I think the same concepts apply to femininity and womanhood for those BW's out there. Anyway...here it is.

Quote
I wanted to offer you some comfort as your wife challenges your masculinity. Last spring, my now FWW did the same thing and I researched the subject a little on the web. [color:"red"] [edited to add: More precisely, she repeatedly indicated she was "emasculating" me" which my premise below is you can only "emasculate" the willing].

I know how tough things are for you right now but your masculinity is not in question. An unmasculine man would have cut and run already...the mere fact you are sticking this out and trying is enough for me to know you are a strong man. Sure...you need to "man up" further and bust up this affair; but, I know all to well that this is a process and you're doing and not doing what you can. I am not applauding your failure to fully expose but I warn you...the faster you "man up" the quicker you will put this behind you. Expose, fully...today.

I tried to do things my way too. I tried to pick and choose the principles I applied to my sitch. However, I promise you that between "your way" vs. the proven and well worn narrow path prescribed by Dr. Harley which is being offered to you FREE on this site there is no comparison. Be smart...take the path that offers the best chance of success. Make the path your PLAN which you stick to despite what your fogged out wife says or does. If nothing else it will give you some sanity and sense of control as you navigate through this madness. Become the MAN with a plan.

MASCULINITY:

1. I am a male by birth and a man by age, but I can only become masculine by maturity. I must accept myself as masculine.

2. Manhood does not come automatically or easily. It is something that is achieved.

3. I control my masculinity, though it can be perceived by my WW as otherwise, it only CHALLENGES my masculinity IF I question it.

Good luck MAN,

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- I think I remember using number 3 last spring in a fog babble response saying something to the effect of: "I am a man, thus, I am masculine...you can question it all you want but I'm not going to". She likely will change tactics if she no longer finds this attacking dialogue effective...that's when you confirm it was just a tactic in the first place to get you to LB or further justify her affair. Don't fall for it nor buy into any of it.



Another tidbit for the recently Betrayeds out there. This time I'll write more directly to the B.Wives...again it's equally applicable to BH's.

Wayward Spouses ALWAYS affair down. They NEED someone beneath them, who will admire them and give them feigned respect. Your husband is not seeking out the younger, better looking woman, he is taking whatever opportunity presents itself and meets his needs for sex, admiration, and boosts his self-esteem. SHE IS NOT SPECIAL. If she happens to be younger and pretty that is just the luck of the draw and a RARITY...most of the time it IS NOT the case. After reading here you will discover that the OW could have been anyone and your husband's choice of OW was not in any way an indication or indictment of you as a beautiful, attractive, desirable, intelligent, mature, moral, loyal, spiritual woman, wife and mother. OW is, I guarantee, no match for you.

Think of it this way, your husband is behaving low and dirty. Thus it necessarily takes a pretty low class woman to admire him at this point ... DO NOT allow this trash to rock your self confidence. You may or may not have let yourself go...but you can get it back and be the classy, beautiful, respectful, upstanding, Grade A woman you always were whereas the Other Woman WILL ALWAYS remain trash.


Good luck again,

Mr. Wondering [/color]


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

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^Bump for comments

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Bumpdate #1

Please find below an email that I received within 16 hours of our D-moment, April 27, 2005. It was sent to me by an old friend that lives on the opposite side of the country from me and who knew nothing of our situation and she rarely ever emailed me. This was sent at a time when I was so emotional and felt so very alone as I'm certain many of you do right now. I will always be grateful that she shined a bit of light into my life when I needed it so much. It also should be noted that this friend of mine is a staunch atheist, furthering my belief that God does truly carry us when He knows that we can't go it alone...

As you proceed through these darkest hours, days, weeks of your glorious life journey it is my prayer that not only will God Bless you and your family, but that this may also serve as a reminder that God never leaves us no matter how dire our situation may seem...He always sees the bigger picture and knows that the best really is yet to come...you will, INDEED, make it.

With Love In Christ,

Mr. Wondering


Quote
***KEEP YOUR FORK!***
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There was a young woman who had been diagnosed with a terminal illness and had been given three months to live. So as she was getting her things "in order," she contacted her Pastor and had him come to her house to discuss certain aspects of her final wishes.
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She told him which songs she wanted sung at the service, what scriptures she would like read, and what outfit she wanted to be buried in.
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Everything was in order and the Pastor was preparing to leave when the young woman suddenly remembered something very important to her.
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There's one more thing," she said excitedly. "What's that?" came the Pastor's reply. "This is very important," the young woman continued. "I want to be buried with a fork in my right hand."
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The Pastor stood looking at the young woman, not knowing quite what to say. That surprises you, doesn't it?" the young woman asked. Well, to be honest, I'm puzzled by the request," said the Pastor. The young woman explained. "My grandmother once told me this story, and from that time on I have always tried to pass along its message to those I love and those who are in need of encouragement.
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In all my years of attending socials and dinners, I always remember that when the dishes of the main course were being cleared, someone would inevitably lean over and say, 'Keep your fork. It was my favorite part because I knew that something better was coming...like velvety chocolate cake or deep-dish apple pie. Something wonderful, and with substance!
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So, I just want people to see me there in that casket with a fork in my hand and I want them to wonder "What's with the fork?" Then I want you to tell them: "Keep your fork...the best is yet to come."
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The Pastor's eyes welled up with tears of joy as he hugged the young woman good-bye. He knew this would be one of the last times he would see her before her death.. She had a better grasp of what heaven would be like than many people twice her age, with twice as much experience and knowledge. She KNEW that something better was coming.
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At the funeral people were walking by the young woman's casket and they saw the cloak she was wearing and the fork placed in her right hand. Over and over, the Pastor heard the question, "What's with the fork?" And over and over he smiled.
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During his message, the Pastor told the people of the conversation he had with the young woman shortly before she died. He also told them about the fork and about what it symbolized to her. He told the people how he could not stop thinking about the fork and told them that they probably would not be able to stop thinking about it either.
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He was right. So the next time you reach down for your fork let it remind you, ever so gently, that the best is yet to come.

Friends are a very rare jewel, indeed. They make you smile and encourage you to succeed. They lend an ear, they share a word of praise, and they always want to open their hearts to us.
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Show your friends how much you care. Remember to always be there for them, even when you need them more. For you never know when it may be their time to "Keep their fork."
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Cherish the time you have and the memories you share ... being friends with someone is not an opportunity but a sweet responsibility.
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And from me to you, keep your fork...


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
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READ THE BASIC CONCEPTS

One of the many things that are awesome about MB is that unlike many other authors and infidelity websites, Dr. Harley has provided us with virtually his entire plan for saving marriages FREE OF CHARGE on the main website. He is the professional. Myself, Longhorn and everyone else posting here on MB are just your peers. There is value in our collective experiences but "we" are NOT the experts.

That being said...please realize that you as a betrayed spouse are an exploitable vulnerable commodity. I've been in your shoes and I made the mistake of buying and/or downloading several books/ebooks of questionable value based upon the puffery of some website. There are numerous snazzy websites and forums designed to lure you in and take advantage of your desperation or just feed you bad advice (the devil hates marriage and there are several pagan websites and forums that are purposefully designed to further destroy your family). Be careful. My experience is Dr. Harley and his family are kind Christian people NOT simply trying to get you to buy their books and counseling services. They just want their program out their helping people. They certainly do offer them here but no one is required to buy anything and no one has ever stopped me from recommending you purchase materials used on Amazon.com or anything like that. Unlike other authors, my email also hasn't been bombarded with solicitations. I also find it refreshing to see a website that isn't covered up with paid advertising and links to other questionable resources and materials. If Dr. Harley is out JUST to make a buck...he certainly has missed several key revenue streams. Other than one book, SAA my wife and I haven't spent a dime more saving our marriage on these forums.

Finally, in infidelity forums everywhere you will find people that begrudge the way they previously handled their lives and with varying levels of true concern will attempt to deny you or short cut you through your life experiences. Sometimes they remain stuck in recovered but awful marriages and other times they're happily or bitterly divorced. They legitimately, most of the time, hope to help you by trying to get you to realize your situation is hopeless just like they wish someone had told and convinced them sooner that their situation was hopeless. Problem is...none of us here or anywhere can really ascertain which situations are truly hopeless and which are not (though many try) I've seen some of the worst betrayals and wayward spouses turn things around here on MB whereas other situations with numerous children and a long history that seemed so easily savable fail to reconcile. There is no short-cutting this process and, while true, that divorce is success in some situations, reconciliation and HOPE is available here on MB for ALL situations initially. Time will sort things out and MB can and will help you adjust along the way as we figure it all out together.

So...until then...

READ Dr. HARLEY BASIC CONCEPTS

AND THEN POST YOUR STORY

Mr. Wondering


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Hey Longhorn....you/we've been pinned to the top of the board...Front row, movie star parking.

I've got so many more "bumpdates" that now become unnecessary. Oh well. Guess I'll call'em sumtin else.

Mr W


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NEWBIE UPDATE

Well, today I thought I'd add my "Do's and Don'ts of Plan A List". This list I carried around with me from early into my wife's affair and then well into recovery. I referred to it from time to time to keep myself grounded in how I wanted to behave. A big part of Plan A is being the best person, spouse and parent (if applicable) that you can be despite the circumstances around you. My basic premise that enabled me to survive day to day was "Act, Don't React" (i.e. - "ACT" like the person I wanted to be without any love busters and do not allow myself to simply "React" to the harshness of the reality I foung myself in at the moment). Using this basic premise, I was able to weather the roller coaster of infidelity and eventually restore my marriage.

There are many emotional strains on the wayward spouse but their primary problem/issue is the OP (Other Person). If "No Contact" has not yet been established they will behave with a single minded intention to get their "fix" of the OP. If you threaten their ability to obtain such fix depending on the length of time between fixes, the quality of the recent fix and the security of such fix you will be met with resistance in varying degrees. No doubt about it, your efforts WILL be resisted but how they do it is a crap-shoot. They may yell, threaten or otherwise blatantly attempt to manipulate you with fear, anger, intimidation or whatever OR be more caniving and attempt to appease you with lies, more deceipt and covert manipulation. Either way they are not really LISTENING to you...you are their secondary concern. Understanding that is essential.

Conversly, the things you do that do not interfere with their addiction will be strongly encouraged and reinforced or perhaps simply ignored. Again, it's manipulation. They will be nice to you, have sex with you, spend time with you IF you allow them to continue having their affair...unabated. The policy of appeasement does not work. You can't simply be a doormat no matter how comfortable your wayward MAY attempt to make you feel.

So in the end you are left feeling powerless and beat up. Which in all essence you are. It's THEIR addiction you have little influence over. Only the addict can decide for themselves when to releive themselves of their addiction. They will do so IF YOU behave according to the solid, well tested, professionally advised Marrigage Builders principles. You, of course, must practice both the "CARROT AND THE STICK of Plan A (see link in my signature line below) to attempt to bust up the affair. But much of the STICK does not involve your day to day interactions with your "FOGGED OUT" wayward spouse. My do's and don't list is how you manage your spouse while you do the rest of Plan A.

Some days your spouse will be kind to you and other days hostile. As you ATTEMPT to pull closer to them and reestablish intimacy they will no doubt respond by pulling away for fear of you interrupting their affair OR, if the affair is over, for fear of leading you on. If you pull away from them the Waywards may often pull you closer for fear of losing you, for fear of losing their options as they cake eat/ride the fence of indecision. However, if you pull away to hard you may run a huge risk that you will merely reinforce and legitimize their built up rationalizations and justifications. It's simply the roller coaster of infidelity and the more you recognize it for what it is the more POWER you have to control YOURSELF as you both progress through this mess.

The wayward emotional pull back is to be EXPECTED. Waywards almost always do this. They take a step towards you and you respond appreciatively...you acquire Hope and push for more, more, more. You hunger for HOPE and they fear it. WS's don't feel worthy of it and are holding on to so much of the rationalizations and justifications that they can't see straight YET...even if they HAVE recommitted to the relationship and gone to "NO CONTACT". They fear hurting you further, hurting their family further. They fear you are placing much more significance on each step forward than you should cause they legitimately and quite necessarily DON'T FEEL IT...YET. So they slap you down and retreat. They may even defend/insulate themselves from you by calling you NEEDY AND UNATTRACTIVE to get you to back off. Hence, the step backwards.

When you detach from the rollercoaster and allow him/her to proceed at his/her desired speed you can hopefully minimize the steps back. When YOU internalize and beleive yourself to be the obvious choice, acquire patience and the confidence that he/she would be a fool not to recomitt to you, then you become the confident, unpressing, spouse that swept them off their feet so many years ago. He/she can more easily recommit to the person they saw back at the beginnig of your relationship than they can to the devastated spouse they see before them now.

You are behooved to for the most part just let it go for now, OP's soon to be or IS out of the picture...this is just you and your spouse now. Try to date them (alone time without KIDS is KEY...family time is NOT as effective). Movie dates suck cause you can't talk but those are the kind of dates you want now. Consider loud restaurants, clubs and bars. Activity based dates where you are not seated facing each other forced to have that “serious talk”. But if they won't date you go out yourself and either have fun or feign fun. They will eventually get suspicious or feel the need to take a break themselves and hopefully follow along.

In conclusion, you only control you. The more you understand the dynamics of infidelity the more prepared you will be to anticipate it and combat it. Your spouse, as expected is behaving like an idiot right now and "idiocy" will likely be the forecast for some time. YOU must be the leader of your family and the leader of your marriage and despite the crap you are putting up with BE the best person you can be....simply, ACT, DON'T REACT.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

OK...the list of Do's and Don'ts.

Do's
1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone and/or ability to logically carry on a conversation. Their mind is elsewhere so you are just trying to keep them in the present.
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, new cologne, shower gel, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tomorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed (it may be hard to imagine this but YOU will make it regardless whereas without you, your spouse won't)
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea and is usually a waste of time anyway unless it's with the Harley's or a counselor that uses MB materials)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP

*sorry the above is a little choppy...I combined several similar posts to compile this one.

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Bumpdate/Update #2

HOW DID YOUR SPOUSE END UP IN AN AFFAIR? HOW COULD THEY DO THIS TO YOU? HOW CAN I BE CAREFUL ABOUT MY RELATIONS WITH OPPOSITE SEX FRIENDS IN THE FUTURE? WHY DOES DR. HARLEY SAY WE ARE ALL WIRED TO BE UNFAITHFUL?

All valid questions. My wife ended up having an affair at a particularly weak moment in our marriage. We had both withdrawn and we were both vulnerable to infidelity. Thankfully she got the first opportunity (thankfully because in our situation and taking into consideration our personalities our marriage would not have recovered as quickly or possible at all). My wife progressed through the following steps after a recently divorced old High School boyfriend contacted her through classmates.com.

I borrowed the list for a poster named TooSoontobeComfortable. The rest of this post is his words. He gets the credit for it's awesomeness...lol.

[color:"blue"]

TOOSOONS - 15 STEPS TO INFIDELITY

I borrowed this from another Web Site on Infidelity. It sounded like the steps my FWW described to me as she explained her affair to me.

-----------------------------

This was a handout for a church group (the statistics are almost identical for church and non-church members when it comes to adultery and divorce) but it does a good job of defining how affairs develop for far too many people. The progression from friend to sexual intimacy and betrayal. It is provided in the hope that it will help newcomers to the forum gain some understanding of what has happened and how it could or might have happened.

Anatomy of Adultery
15 Steps of Unfaithfulness

How does adultery "happen?" People don't just decide one day to hop in bed and be unfaithful to their spouse. Adultery is the culminating act of a dozen or more tiny steps of unfaithfulness. Each step in itself does not seem that serious or much beyond the previous step. Satan draws a person into adultery one tiny step at a time. And he does this over time so that our conscience is gradually seared. This makes it easier to take "just one more step" thinking such a tiny step won't hurt us.

The following "15 steps" which analyze how adultery "happens" are based on scores of interviews, counseling, and correspondence with church folk who fell into unfaithfulness. Our question: "How did this happen... what were the tiny steps which led to this mess?" While the order varied from case to case, the following is the general progression which surfaced in most incidents. This is not some sort of theoretical list. These are the actual steps taken by scores of church people who wound up committing adultery and regretting it later. Some of these people sobbed deeply as they shared, hoping that their own pain and failure might save other marriages. This information comes to you at great expense.

This chapter doesn't have any preaching or analysis... that is left to you. Here we offer you cold word-for-word quotes. You and your Sunday School class can draw out the lessons. How did these lives get ruined? How does it start?


1. Sharing Common Interests.
"We just had so much in common, it was uncanny."

"She and I both enjoyed music, and we were attracted to each other."

"He was so spiritually-minded... I'd been looking for someone to share my spiritual struggles with."

"We both loved horses, and started riding together."

"We both shared a burden for the church and especially children's work."

"She was the first woman I'd ever met who liked the outdoors, even hunting and fishing -- I was fascinated!"


2. Mentally comparing with my mate.
"My husband wasn't interested much in spiritual things, but this man knew so much about the Bible."

"She was slim, attractive, and dressed sharp -- quite a difference from my wife who didn't take care of herself much at that time."

"She was so understanding and would listen to me and my hurts -- my wife was always so busy and rushed that we didn't have the time to talk.

"My husband just would never communicate -- he'd come home from work and just sit there watching TV. I finally gave up on him. Then this man came along who was worlds apart from my husband -- he was gentile, loved to talk, and would just share little things about his life with me."


3. Meeting emotional needs.
"He understood how I was feeling and offered me the empathy I was hungering for."

"She was there when I needed her."

"My ego was so starved for affirmation that I would have taken it from anyone -- I guess that's what started the whole thing."

"No one had ever really believed in me until he came along. He encouraged me, inspired me, and believed so deeply in what I could become."

"My wife was busy with the kids and not at all involved with my work. This girl admired me and treated me like I was really somebody. It felt so good."


4. Looking forward to being together.
"I used to dread going to work, but after we started our friendship, I would wake up thinking of how I would see him later that day... it seemed to make getting up easier."

"I would think of being with her the whole time I was driving to work."

"I found myself thinking of him as I got dressed each morning, wondering how he would like a certain outfit or perfume."

"I looked forward to choir practice every week because I knew he would be there."

"Every time I drove by her house I would think of her and how we'd see each other that Sunday."


5. Tinges of dishonesty with my mate.
"When my wife would ask if she was with the group I'd pretend I couldn't remember... right there I started building a wall between us."

"I would act like I was going to practice with our ensemble, but actually I was practicing a duet with him."

"Once my wife asked about her, but I denied everything, after all, we hadn't done anything wrong yet. Now I see that this was one of those exit points where I could have come clean and got off the road I was speeding down."

"Whenever we got together as couples I would act like I didn't care about him, and afterward I would even criticize him to my husband. I guess I was trying to hide my real feelings from my husband."


6. Flirting and teasing.
"I could tell from the way she looked at me. She would gaze directly into my eyes, then furtively glance down my body then back into my eyes again -- I knew then that she was interested in more than my friendship. But, I was so flattered by her interest that I couldn't escape."

"Then we started teasing each other, often with double-meaning kind of things. Sometimes we'd tease each other even when we were together as two couples. It seemed innocent enough at first, but more and more we knew it really did mean something to us."

"We would laugh and talk about how it seemed like we were "made for each other" so much. Then we'd tease each other about what kind of husband or wife the other one would have been if we'd married each other."

"He had those killer eyes. When he'd look at me in that "special way" I would just melt. It was hopeless fighting my urges -- he had me."


7. Talking about personal matters.
"We would talk about things -- not big things, just little things which he cared about, or I was worried about."

"We'd meet together for coffee before church and just talk together."

"I was having problems with my son and she seemed to understand the whole situation so much better than anyone else I talked with. I'd tell her about the most recent blow-up and she would understand so well. We just became really deep friends -- almost soul-mates. That's what's so weird about all this -- we never intended for it to go this far."

"I had lost my Dad just before we got to know each other and he had lost his mother a few years earlier. He seemed to understand exactly what I was going through and we would talk for hours about how each of us felt."

"I was so lonely since my husband died and hungry for someone to share life with. Then he began to call just because he cared. I loved hearing his caring voice at the other end of the line, even though I knew he was married."

"We spent so much time together at work that I swear she knew more about me than my wife ever did -- or even cared to know."


8. Minor yet arousing touch, squeeze, or hug.
"He never touched me for months. Then one night after working late, we were walking toward the door when he said 'You're so special, thanks for all you do..." then he turned and hugged me tenderly, just for a second. I loved how I felt for that moment so much that I began to replay it over and over again in my mind like a videotape. Now I know that I should have stopped it all right then. I never intended to ruin my family like this."

"She was always hanging around our house and was my wife's best friend. Often she would stay late to watch TV, even after my wife went to bed. She would sit beside me on the couch and I was drawn to her like the song says... like a moth to the flame."

"He would often pat me on the shoulder -- you know, in appreciation for a good job I'd done. But I knew it meant more than that."

"The first time she touched me was when we were doing registration together. We were sitting beside each other. I'd say something cute or funny and she would giggle, then under the table she'd squeeze the top of my leg with her hand. That was really exciting to me."

"Every time she shook hands with me at the door she seemed to linger, sort of holding my hand more than shaking it. No one else would notice, but I knew there was more to her touch than appeared to the eyes. She knew too."


9. Special notes or gifts.
"He would write these little encouraging notes and leave them in my desk, pocketbook, or taped to my computer. They didn't say anything which could be traced. If anyone found them they wouldn't suspect anything. But we both knew what was going on, we just didn't want to stop yet."

"I would sometimes call him and leave a short message on his answering machine. He would leave little notes in my Bible."

"He would buy me a little gift -- not that expensive, but it always showed he had taken extra thought to get exactly what I liked. Of course everyone else thought he was just being a good boss."

"She started leaving unsigned notes to me in my desk sharing her feelings for me. It scared me at first, because I thought someone would find one. But after a while I found myself looking forward to the next one, even though I knew the risk."


10. Inventing excuses to call or meet.
"I started figuring out ways I could drop off something at her house when her husband was gone. He and I knew each other and I would always return borrowed tools in the afternoon when I knew she'd be there alone."

"I would wait until the end of the workday then I'd call him just before closing time about something I'd made up as a 'business question' and we'd talk."

"The more entangled we got, the more I planned times where he and I could practice together. We started meeting more often."

"She started arranging her schedule so that her husband dropped her off at committee meetings. I would hang around and offer to take her home, acting with as much nonchalance as I could muster up."


11. Arranging secret meetings.
"By now we both were so far gone that we started meeting secretly at the mall parking lot. It know now how foolish this was, but I was driven by something other than good sense at that time."

"We started arranging to work evenings on the same nights, then we would leave early and meet each other in the dark parking lot."

"I started making sure he knew my travel schedule so we could attend the same conferences. We still weren't involved physically at that time, but there was such excitement and romance to it all... even the secrecy seemed to make it more exciting."

"She would sometimes call me just before lunch and we'd sneak through a drive-up together, and then spend the rest of my lunch hour talking quietly to each other."


12. Deceit and cover ups.
"Once we were meeting secretly I had to invent all kinds of stories about where I'd been to satisfy my wife. By now I had built a towering wall of dishonesty between us."

"Pretty soon my whole life was full of lies. I'd lie about where I was going, where I'd been, and who I'd been with. The more suspicious my husband got, the better liar I became. But he knew something was going on. It's hard to lie without people suspecting it."

"I joined several groups so that I would have an excuse to be away in the evenings."

"She would ask when I'd gotten off work. I'd simply lie about it, and she never knew what hit her. How can I ever regain her trust now?"

"We agreed that if anyone saw us driving around we would both tell the same story: that my car wouldn't start, he stopped to help, an we were going together to get a new fuse to replace the broken one he'd discovered."

"By now my whole life was a lie, so I began telling them regularly to cover up our little meetings."


13. Kissing and embracing.
"The whole thing seemed so exciting by now. I was such a fool. We were meeting secretly and both of us were fearful of being caught. But that only seemed to increase our common ground. When we'd meet, we would embrace as if we'd not been together for years -- like in the movies when someone comes home from the war."

"Once we started meeting secretly the end came fast. We kissed and hugged like two teenagers going parking for their first time."

"It just felt so good to be hugged and loved by somebody who really cared about me."


14. Petting and high indiscretion.
"At this point my glands took over. I forgot reason altogether and was willing to risk everything for more."

"It was like I was a teenager again -- going too far, then repenting and promising to do better; then just as quick I was hungrily seeking more sin."

"When my husband and I were dating we struggled with 'how far to go.' Well, here I was again struggling over the same issue. Friendship with this guy didn't seem so wrong. But now were we're going further than I ever intended. But, I felt curiously justified going exactly as far as I had with my husband when had been dating. In a way, I think some of my resentment against my husband's constant pressure on me started coming out. I'm not saying that it wasn't wrong. Just that I kind of felt justified."

"At about this time I began fooling myself into thinking I was heroic for not going "all the way." That's what I wanted to do. But by doing "everything but" I fooled myself into thinking I was successfully resisting temptation. What I didn't realize was that, not only was what I was doing wrong, but that eventually I would take the next step. It's just not possible to freeze a relationship -- you have to go ahead with it, or break it off totally."


15. Sexual intercourse.
"Soon I quit resisting and was swept into outright adultery."

"One thing led to another and finally we ended up in bed with each other."

"Though we never intended it to go that far, we eventually went all the way and had sex."

"One night we couldn't seem to stop ourselves (at least we didn't want to) so I completed my journey of unfaithfulness to my husband -- I had sex with this man."
_________________________[/color]


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

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BUMPDATE/UPDATE #3

WILL DIVORCE LEAD TO HAPPINESS?

Read the following article for an analysis of the question.

[color:"blue"] Link to American Values study on divorce and happiness [/color]

This is your life. Like it or not, infidelity is now a part of it. You'll never change it. It can defeat you only if you allow it. I suggest that absent difficult moments like you are experiencing today that it's merely more difficult to recognize the really good times. Live and learn. Seize the opportunity you currently have and are motivated to achieve to become a better person, spouse and parent. You only get one shot at life...it ain't ALL bad.

Good luck again,
Mr. Wondering


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Longhorn and MrWondering -

Thank you for this thread. It encapsulates a lot of good information for people that wake up in their own personal ******.

LH, I did have one suggestion for your post. You wrote:
Quote
Step 1: Military-grade operation to develop intelligence on whether your spouse is involved in an adulterous relationship. There is a thread out here on MB dedicated to exactly that.

Would it be possible for you to provide the link to that thread? Many new users might not know how to search for it. From my personal experience, even though I'm computer savvy, having a list of resources and ideas to do this would have been immensely helpful (though at the time I was too ignorant to realize that I should have done this, thinking that the affair was over).

Again, thanks for a very important thread and collection of knowledge/ideas. I hope it will serve many who find themselves in this awful position.


Formerly known as brokenbird

BH (Me) - 38
WW (Magpie) - 31
Married 2001 (Together 8 years)
DS - 13
DD - 5
EA/PA - 9/05-12/05
D-Day - 11/05

Second separation. Working on me.

If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given to you.
John 15:7 (NIV)
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BB, it's the "Spying 101" link in my signature block and I think I'll add the link to the text on my first edit. Thanks for the kind words about the thread. Much appreciated.

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Thought I'd add another post. This one is by the infamous Mortarman. I've never met the man but he is now one of the good friends my wife and I have made herein. We are all praying for him, his WW and his children as his 4 year battle with infidelity appears to just now be coming to an end in divorce.

Anyway, it's a great newbie post, especially for military men, that I pulled out for the Infidelity - General Questions Board (the most active board on this site and where you are likely to get the most help when you begin posting).

This post was directed to a BH named Good Father, who like Mortarman, was also military, hence the military angle. Again sorry BW's but the link at the bottom regarding the roles of husbands and wives is an awesome read that all Christians should not miss.

Quote
MORTARMAN - SPRING, 2006

Okay, you have begun the good fight. The folks here are some of the best on this blog to helping guide you. And they have laid it out pretty good. With that in mind, I must first of all center you. And here is my overall advice:
.
#1...YOU are the leader of your family. Not your wife, nor your in-laws, nor Steve Harley, nor us. You, sir, must make the decisions here. You are fighting this fight. You are the man in command, on the ground. We are all just support. So, you have to take all advice here and look at it, and then look at the situation in front of you to make the decision based on what you see. Understand? As a military guy, the generals in the rear can make all the plans they want...and they usually are dead on. But it is the leader on the ground that has to decide when and where it all happens, based on the conditions in front of him. Do your own METT-T analysis (if you are Army, then you know what I am talking about). For thsoe that aren't Army, METT-T stands for: Mission, Enemy, Troops, Terrain and Time. In all of this, you can use that to figure out what is going on.
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What is your mission? Well, the overall one is to serve your God. But then comes the mission of saving your family. Below that, will come the missions of Plan A and Plan B. And so on.
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The enemy. Right now, your wife is as much an enemy to your family as the OM is. Treat her as such. Trust nothing she says, and only half of what you see. As others have postulated, she has been taken over by aliens. That is NOT your wife you are dealing with. It is a WW...a very coniving, deceitful and hideous creature. Your wife is buried somewhere inside of there. As you go thru this, you will learn the actions that defeat the enemy. Many of those actions are counter-intuitive to what you would normally be thinking is the right thing to do.
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Troops. These are the forces that you have at your disposal. Starting with us here. We are your S-2 (Intelligence). We know the lay of the land. We know all about the enemy and what their tactics and COAs (courses of action) are. The enemy hardly ever changes tactics. Another one of your troops is your daughter. While you arent going to "use" her in this battle, it was Steve Harley that told me that my kids were the best asset I had in this war. This is the biggest reason why you MUST seek custody (as well as you dont want aliens raising your daughter). Other troops are Steve Harley (the EXPERT!), your pastor, close friends and relatives, a PI, etc. All of the assets at your disposal.
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Terrain. Okay, in the military, it would be what is the land mass in front of me. In this case, it is the "lay of the land." Understanding all of the variables. Where does OM work? What things does your wife value (such as is she a part of a church group...and would be devasted if they found out she was sleeping around)? Figure out where the high ground is. Understand what direction fo attack she will most likely try. And so on.
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Time. You, at times, will feel rushed. By yourself, by your wife...even by us! Please don't be. As you go thru this, you will slowly begin to understand the power you have. Remember, YOU decide when and where a battle will happen...not your wife. If she wants a discussion (read: argument) and you aren't prepared for it, then bow out. You don't owe a WW ANYTHING!! They deserve NOTHING! Also, please go in this website and learn how long these things take. This stuff will take a lot longer than you think.
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Okay, we got thru that.
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Now, please understand that timing is critical here. You cant talk about Plan B until you have accomplished Plan A. Many even here will want to rush into Plan B. Slow down. Learn what the plans are all about (go to Dazed's thread to see the discussion on this).
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You sir need to get your plan in something like OPORD (operations order) format. Get it written down (NOT where your wife can find it!!). Read it daily to understand your mission and your goals.
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Also, you MUST document EVERYTHING. Begin journaling everyday. Write down everything! it is admissable in court AND it will also help you remain sane as you go thru this. I say that because sometimes, you will think you havent made any progress. But, going back and reading will help you see the steps you have made.
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Legal representation is vital! You dont have a womb, so you are at a deficit to start. Mrs. Wondering gave you a great link to an e-book that is great for gaining custody (I got custody!). Read it. Tell your lawyer that you want custody and want to protect the family assets. But also important is that you tell your attorney that you are attempting to save your marriage...NOT divorce. he may try to talk you into things...dont let him. You write the check...he works for YOU!!
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Another thing is that you are going to have to get smart. becoem an expert on affairs, marriage, love, etc. Read, read, read!!! By the time this is over, you will be like Dazed...a subject matter expert in all of this. You cant fight the enemy if you are ignorant of this stuff. Time to get smart.
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I will stop now and await your answer to the questions at the beginning of my post before going further. I find it a lot easier to get military men to get onboard MB quickly, because of our training. We want a plan...and MB gives us that plan. Steve Harley is the EXPERT in coming up with the plan. Your OPORD will come from him.
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Just like we Americans didnt choose to be attacked on 9/11...you didnt choose this attack on your marriage. But you have been attacked, nonetheless! There are two people counting on you to stand up and fight (yes...your wife is one of them!!). You have a duty and responsibility here. No matter how bad it hurts, no matter how hard it becomes...surrender is not an option.
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As the motto for my former battalion says..."Ever Forward."
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In His arms.
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BS (me) (42)
WW (35)
Married April 1993...
3 kids (13, 11, 8)
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The Roles of Husbands and Wives

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UVA's War Post

This is what I wrote from another thread. It may be useful:

I prefer not to hold any punches when I speak, and what I say below may be hard to swallow, but you need to hear the truth so that you may act in a way that is most conducive to the achievement of your goals. Thus, what I say is not for the weak-hearted. Where I seem harsh, I do not mean to offend, it is to WAKE YOU UP from the big slumber that you seem to be in. I, like the others, have your best interest at heart. In the end, you will be ok and remember that you are stronger than you think you are, as will be discussed below.

What follows will be very long, as I gave a lot of thought of what I wanted to say to you and tried to come up with a fairly comprehensive strategy that you may want to put into action. It will be information overload and you won’t get many of it right away. But use it as a guideline and refer to it on an ongoing basis in addition to the advices you are getting from others on your thread. In time it will all make sense. So break what follows up in parts and come back to it from time to time.

I think analytically, so I will write in an outline form in the hope of being as clear as I can.

A. ACCEPT REALITY for what it really is.

You wife is in a full blown affair and you are, sorry to say, being played for a fool. All WSs at some point or another play their BSs for a fool. So you are not alone.

I will say more on exposure below, but for now I think you need to expose to your parents for two reasons. One, you will need all the emotional support you can get and they can be a big source of that. Second, you obviously need some outside perspective from all of this, and I think your parents can clearly point out to you what is really going on even though you are refusing to believe your own eyes.

So accepting reality is one of the first steps you need to take in order to give yourself a chance to save your M, to protect your CHILDREN and yourself.

B. You need to MAN UP

I hope you understand the concept of war. This crap you are going through is war. It is a war to save your M, to protect your children, and to maintain your sanity. Even though you may feel fear, you must act decisively, lest you and your children become the latest casualties of infidelity.

The weak may inherit the earth, but they do not win custody…especially if they are males. You need to be strong to fight for your children. Further, as some has suggested, women do not like men they perceive as weak. You will not win your WW back by catapulting to her every demand. Since, right now she does not have your best interest in mind, she is sure to exploit whatever weakness you exhibit. Thus, you are going to have to start standing up for yourself. It does not mean that you have to be rude, which is totally contrary to Plan A, but you need to stop being a doormat. A delicate balance, I know; a necessary one, nonetheless.

C. SNOOP

We know that there is an A. What you need now is proof of the A. The proof in my opinion is neither for you nor for your wife, since both of you know (and should know in your case) of the A. I see no value in trying to convince a WS that they are in A. If they are in A, they know they are in A. Trying to convince them that they are in the A is a waste of time.

Now your WW will try to convince you that she is not in an A, but if you know that your WW is in an A (as should be the case here), it is also a waste of time to argue with her about the existence of her A. When you have the proof in hand you can just show it to her if you wish—provided this does not jeopardize your source or legal case—but I don’t think that is necessary. You can just tell her that you know she is in an A and she can do whatever she wants with this information, i.e., the knowledge that you know what is going on. Don’t let her trick you into a fight on this. It is a waste of time and emotionally draining.

There are two other reasons, however, why I believe it is imperative to get proof of the A. One, you need proof for your legal case if your situation proceeds that route. Merely saying that you WW is having an A will not be enough. Since your WW is going to lie and say otherwise, you will need proof that can stand in court. You don’t want this issue to be just a he-says/she-says scenario in court. Note that even if the divorce laws in your state say that infidelity is irrelevant, infidelity may nonetheless be a factor in deciding who gets custody of your children. Moreover, since the judge is human, and even if the law says one thing, human nature will force him or her to take your WW’s infidelity into consideration when he or she deliberates on your case.

A second reason to snoop is to establish your credibility to those you expose to. Your parents will naturally believe you, so this is not for them. But her parents, and friends, others who can be influential with her, will be more apt to come to your aid if you can back up claims to them. A WS is a big time liar. Therefore, your WW is a big time liar right now. Just as she is lying to you now, she will be lying to those you expose to. If you have irrefutable proof in hand, she will have no where to hide and those you expose will have to come to terms with the reality of the situation. For these two reasons, I think it’s important to snoop your butt off on this.

How do you snoop? Well as others said, get telephone recording devices, car or personal tracking devices, computer keyloggers and hire a PI. Hiring a PI would especially be good. That would really solidify your case in court for custody, should it come to that, and open the exposure targets eyes to what your wife has really been up to. I know that hiring a PI may seem very expensive to you right now, but a divorce and losing custody of your children will be much more expensive than that, this I promise you.

Others are better expert on how to go about snooping, so I will defer to them on that. But what is clear, is that you need to do it.

D. Plan A: Exposure

1. Make a list of exposure targets and proceed to expose to them. They should be your parents, her parents, her siblings, friends of the M that can have influence on your WW. Later on, if that does not work, you can expose to the church you guys go to if you go to one or other people that can make a difference in your sitch.

2. When you expose be sure to tell the people that you expose to that your goal is to save your M and that you need their help in reaching that goal.

3. Do not threaten your WW that you are going to expose. Just do it. Do not tell her your plan here. In fact, do not tell her any of your plans in trying to save your M and protecting yourself and your children. Just as you would not tell an enemy your plan in a war, you don’t want to tell your WW your plan in this battle. Unfortunately, all WSs are the enemies of marriages.

4. Be ready for a big backlash when you expose. Your WW will say that your M is over, that this is the last straw, blah blah blah. Don’t worry, you will survive it! But don’t argue with her on this; just keep telling her that you will do whatever it takes to protect your M. Keep repeating this over and over as she brings it up.


E. See a Lawyer ASAP

1. Be sure that your lawyer tells you what your rights are, both for divorce and custody purposes.

2. With respect to custody, do not change your schedule with your children to accommodate your WW. The court will most likely give custody to the parent who takes care of the children and is there for them the most. As of now, that seems to be you. WW’s lawyer may told her that she needs to change the nature of the relationship that you have with the children, so WW can better position herself for custody at your expense. Do not accommodate her at all in this end. Continue to be the primary caretaker of your children.

Further, be sure to document all your interactions with your children and WW from now one. Again, in court your mere words will not be sufficient. If you document everything, however, the court will give me more credence to your contentions than your WW’s. Henceforth, not only do you write down everything you do for children and everything your WW does not do for her, keep every receipt of the things that you do for your children.

Also, when you document what is going on, make sure to write with a pen. A typed document will be given less credence in court (because you could have just written it just before court day). So get to work on this.

3. Don’t discuss divorce with your WW. You do M and your lawyer does divorce. If she wants to discuss divorce refer her to your lawyer. Be a broken record on this too. Do not let her bait you into divorce talk. Your WW will claim that she will do this and that to you if you don’t give in to her. Don’t take her seriously or listen to her nonsense on this. You have much more legal rights than she knows or wants to acknowledge. Thus, on the legal front, listen to your attorney, not your selfish, deluded, fogged-out WW.

4. Put your finances in order, and ask your parents to help you with upcoming financial difficulties that you will face because of this.

a. Separate your finances from WW. WS are known to deplete the finances of the family while in the throes of the A or when they are contemplating divorce or separation. You need to do this ASAP.


F. Schedule an appointment with the Harleys.


G. Plan A: Being the Best You Can Be.

1. Be as nice as possible to your WW without condoning the A. Do not be a doormat! Many confuse Plan A with being a doormat, and I vehemently disagree with this. Set up your boundaries without gratuitously being mean to her.

I believe being the best you can be will encompasses you treating her well. You see if you are being the best person you can be, you will strive to be the best husband, the best father, and being the best in whatever other roles your life entails. In being the best possible husband you can be, you would want to treat your wife well and meet her needs. Thus, you would try to find out what her needs are and try to meet them. You would be polite with her whenever you’re given the chance. To be sure, as a WS, your WW will rebuff many of your kind overtures, but that should not deter you in trying to be a great husband. Similar considerations apply to your roles in the other areas of your life.

But please do not confuse this with letting your WW walk all over you. A BS should never have to grovel to a selfish, unethical, irrational WS. Be polite, kind and loving whenever given the chance, but be firm and strong with respect to your boundaries.

In short, determine your shortfalls as an individual in all of the roles you play, and try to rectify them.

H. Get Full STDs Testing

Many on this site want to bypass this step, but I think for your health, your peace of mind, and the well-being of your children, you need to do it. STDs are alive and well in this country even though almost everyone, including me, wants to pretend otherwise. To ignore it is a big mistake in my opinion.

Most WSs have unprotected sex with the OPs. Thus, the BSs, when they sleep with their WSs, expose themselves to all the potential STDs that the OPs may have had. We have some cases here where the BS fell victim to an STD courtesy of his or her beloved WS. This is not a game, and as unsavory as it is to think about it, you must protect yourself.

In addition, before you have unprotected sex with your WW in the future, be sure she gets herself tested first. Since she slept with OM, you should require this as a condition for unprotected sex with her. If you want to pretend that the possibility of STD does not exist in your case, feel free to do so. You can deny this all you want, but an STD, if any, will not deny you.

I. Pray to God and ask Him to help you with this.

Although God helps those who help themselves, this is the most important step, in my opinion. He is greater than all of us and greater than all of this. It will be hard, but slowly and surely you should learn to put this, with everything every thing else, in His hands.

J. Some General Points

1. Do Not Move Out no matter what.

2. If WW wants to leave, she goes by herself. Your children stays at home with you, where they belong.

3. Ask OM to leave your WW alone, so that there will no doubt about how you feel about their A. Don’t expect much from this. It will be more to put OM on notice of your resolve to fight for your M.

a. If you can afford it, do like Bob Pure did and find out every thing you can out about OM. Find about his weak spots, and we can try to see where we can exploit them.

4. I think this bears repeating, do not grovel and beg your WW to stay with you. One, since you did not do anything wrong, you do not deserve to put yourself in that position. Second, a woman wants a man that they can respect. They won’t respect or be attracted to a groveling man. So even if your reflexes are to beg, stop yourself from doing said action.

5. Do not try to reason with your WW while she is a WW. As they are fond of saying here, WS are abducted by aliens. They cannot reason, and all they want is their next affair fix. You would be wasting your time if you think you can make your WW see the logic of your position. Just let her know your conclusions if need be and move on. (Do this in a non-DJ way though).

In the same vein, do not try to make sense of every utterance that comes out of your WW’s mouth. Again, you will be wasting a lot of time trying to follow the logic or reason of your WW’s statements. She is confused and thus so will be her words.

6. Unless it obvious, do not believe anything your WW tells you right now. WSs are pathological liars. As I have heard here, believe nothing a WS tells you, and only half of what you see. Also keep in mind that your WW does not have your best interest at heart at the moment; she is h*ll bent on destroying your M. Hence, as a rational person, you cannot rely on what she tells you.

7. Be acutely aware that what is going on in your M right now is NOT YOUR FAULT. It is easy to believe that your shortcomings in the M are the reasons that your wife cheated, especially when your WW rewrites the history between you two and blames you for everything. You may not have been the perfect husband, but you did not make her have an affair. I suspect your WW was probably not the perfect wife either, but yet you did not go outside of your M to fix your “marriage problems.” Her A is her personal CHOICE. People are free to make their own decisions. So repeat after me, “IT IS NOT MY FAULT THAT MY WIFE IS IN AN AFFAIR; IT IS HER CHOICE!”

8. Again, do not discuss your plans with your WW.

10. Even though it may not seem like it, your M is very salvageable.

God Bless.

Last edited by UVA; 06/08/06 04:10 PM.
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Great stuff, UVA. I wonder if you could edit your post to make it more generic though? Perhaps entitle it "For Betrayed Spouses Dealing With "In Your Face" Wayward Ones," or something shorter that gets the message across? The way it is, new users will have to locate GF's and BB's threads, read through them and then come back here to continue reading. Just a thought...

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Had to add one of my favorite quotes that helped me...

Read what Frank Pittman says about 'romantic infidelity'
Quote:


ROMANTIC INFIDELITY

Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continuing living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate-someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own-is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your life, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.

Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages. No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape.

People are most likely to get into these romantic affairs at the turning points of life: when their parents die or their children grow up; when they suffer health crises or are under pressure to give up an addiction; when they achieve an unexpected level of job success or job failure; or when their first child is born-any situation in which they must face a lot of reality and grow up. The better the marriage, the saner and more sensible the spouse, the more alienated the romantic is likely to feel. Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones.

Both genders seem equally capable of falling into the temporary insanity of romantic affairs, though women are more likely to reframe anything they do as having been done for love. Women in love are far more aware of what they are doing and what the dangers might be. Men in love can be extraordinarily incautious and willing to give up every-thing. Men in love lose their heads-at least for a while.


BW 43 me
FWH 39
M 1992; DD 18. 13
OC 8-05 - no contact
In recovery 8 years
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this was a really good post for me to read, someone new to the group. Thank you


together for 22 years married for 18 years affair discovered April 29/06 husband left June 29/06
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Bump!



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HOW ARE YOU GOING TO ENDURE THIS?

HOW IS LIFE EVER GOING TO BE GOOD AGAIN?

HOW WILL WE RECOVER FROM THIS NIGHTMARE?

I'm sure a million questions are circulating through your mind as you attempt to grasp exactly what happened, what's happening and what's gonna happen to your life, marriage and family now that you've discovered your spouse is or has cheated on you. I've been there. It is utterly confusing and if your not careful it will eat you up. I know my post will not "fix" everything. It is not meant to. But I do have a big part of the answer to your incessant and obsessive questioning. I'll get right to it. No waiting necessary. The answer to your questions IS, now is how. That's right...NOW is how.

Most of us have very little understanding about the thoughts in our own minds. We are hardly even aware of our thoughts. We fail to realize we live at their mercy, and that most of them are definitely not operating in our best interest. You should be YOU, right NOW the person you see in the mirror; you are not the thoughts in your head. These thoughts make a terrible master, and that's exacttly what most of you are right now...a slave to your obsessive thoughts. You can't stop them, you can't alter them, BUT just like a thunderstorm, you don't have to be battered down and blown about by them.

This is your life. Experience it...the good, bad and ugly. All part of who you are TODAY. As these days of turmoil continue realize you can't change the past nor can you control the future. Living in the NOW is the ONLY thing you can do. It is the only refuge and only escape. But, to do so you must remain in constant vigilance, that's the secret. Your mind will take anything, past or future---and dwell upon it, project from it, and create emotions...good and bad...around it. It will do anything to AVOID the present, the NOW.

The key to wisdom lies just BEYOND your thoughts. Set your thoughts aside. For example, when your WS yells at you, depresses you and tries to make you feel worthless, weak, needy, desparate, lost, whatever with their fogged out rants, speeches, rationalizations and justifications...you look beyond them and say "what a nice evening...isn't this weather we are having right NOW beautiful". It's really not that hard once you ACCEPT the UNCERTAINTY and embrace it as the NOW in your life.

All who seek answers in life can find it. Take the first step - no more, no less - and the next will be revealled.


Quote
Let each one examine his thoughts, and he will find them all occupied with the past and the future. We scarcely ever think of the present, and if we think of it, it is only to take light from it to arrange the future....So we never live, but we hope to live; and, as we are always preparing to be happy, it is inevitable we should never be so.
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Pascal


Quote
A Psalm of Life
What the Young Man Said to the Psalmist
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Tell me not, in mournful numbers,
Life is but an empty dream! -
For the soul is dead that slumbers,
And things are not what they seem.
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Life is real! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal;
Dust thou are, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.
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Not enjoyment, and not sorrow,
Is our destined end or way;
But to act, that each to-morrow
Find us farther than to-day.
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Art is long, and Time is fleeting,
And our hearts, though stout and brave,
Still, like muffled drums, are beating
Funeral marches to the grave.
.
In the world's broad field of battle,
In the bivouac of Life,
Be not like dumb, driven cattle!
Be a hero in the strife!
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Trust no Future, howe'er pleasant!
Let the deat Past bury its dead!
Act, - act in the living Present!
Heart within, and God o'erhead!
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Lives of great men all remind us
We can make our lives sublime,
And, departing, leave behind us
Footprints on the sands of time;
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Footprints that perhaps another,
Sailing o'er life's solemn main,
A forlorn and shipwrecked brother,
Seeing, shall take heart again.
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Let us, then, be up and doing,
With a heart for any fate;
Still achieving, still pursuing,
learn to labor and to wait.
.
HENRY WADSWORTH LONGFELLOW




If this post strikes you interestingly then perhaps you'd be interested in getting and reading a very short book which I really enjoyed. My wife and I had read it years before infidelity interupted our lives but pulled the book out again in recovery to help us both stay focused on living in the present, acting and not reacting and eventually moving on. We recently bought a used copy on some website for $1 as a gift for a friend so it's not expensive. Also, most used bookstores have numerous copies. The book is called "A Rich Man's Secret" by Ken Roberts. I highly recommend it.

Till then, remember, NOW IS HOW.

Mr. Wondering


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

"agree to disagree" = Used when one wants to reject the objective reality of the situation and hopefully replace it with their own.
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Another good reason for exposure..at least in my opinion/belief..Bible encourages it!
Read Matthew 18:15-20.
A friend sent me book entitled,
"What To Do When Your Spouse Says. 'I Don't Love You Anymore'" by David Clarke, Ph.D.& it's a action plan
based on Matthew 18, which I have found very enlighting
& helpful after almost 2 years since D-Day & being separated...wish I'd had it sooner!


Me BS - 58 WH - 58 DDay-12/18/04 WH Left - 1/18/05 HS Sweethearts Married 40yrs,7/2/'66 2 Kids-F-39,M-27 4 GKids-2F-20,1;2M-8,10 2 GGKids-1M-2, 1F-10mos
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Haven't added anything over here in a bit. Thought I'd check in to give a link to a thread authored by Bob Pure, one of illustrious graduates living in England whose name originated as an adaptation of his favorite band, er, Pure Bob Mould. His thread contains multiple links to historical threads of value.

There is much to be learned from the experience and opinions of others that have come before you. We are still pulling for you to get this and apply it. Infidelity CAN be defeated and MB principles, IMO (in my opinion) afford the best chance of doing so. If you haven't read the basic concepts yet I highly recommend you familiarize yourself with them upfront before posting.

Anyway...here is the link to:



Bob's Newly Betrayed Spouse MB tool kit



Mr. Wondering

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Here's a copy of a post from another thread I don't think I've included on this thread yet.

The post was orginated Ark^^, who is one of the senior members herein whom my wife and I respect and admire for her knowledge, wisdom and experience. She is an MB pro. If she ever happens by your thread consider yourself blessed and LISTEN intently to anything she has to say.

Anyway, here is a copy of her message which I have taken the liberty of cuting and pasting herein (I assume she doesn't mind):


[color:"blue"] ARK^^ SAYS:

Some of the most painful posts to read here ....is the confusion and turmoil of betrayed spouses....

those post D-day days weeks and sadly months in which so many things are left unanswered, unaddressed and emtpy...

be still.....

In our turmoil and chaos and the gnawing need to fix and address.....bs bring into their hearts more pain and crisis....

be still...

There was once a saying I read somewhere that went something like to really ever understand someone else we must crawl inside of them and feel the gentle beat of their heart....

easier probably for a BS to move a mountain than to grasp and work from that realm....

but be still...
each moment of stillness you can buy grab or gobble is a moment in which you are free from the pain and free from the fear..

fear of doing the wrong thing
fear of saying the wrong thing...

the goal is not marriage rebuilding at any cost...
the goal is guiding yourself to a place of stillness...no matter the outcome....

the anatomy of a WS is that they changed and molded their own thought processes so that they could engage in a affair....

they did this....
they did this....over time and in a way in which they can barely see the reality of this...but they did do it...

be still

it takes time.....

too many posts are from BS with unrealistic EXPECTATIONS which will harm you...

it is unrealistic to think that the thought processes needed to engage in such vile actions....vanishes over night

working through affair issues takes time...gobs and gobs of it...
and if you find yourself standing in a place of demanding change and specified responses, introspection, apologies, and instant change...

be still

for you are causing more grief that you need to burdon....

they did this...and they must undo this...

will they?
the truth is we don't know..
but to ever be a whole person again they darn well better...otherwise they carry their chaos on and on..and in the end no BS needs to burdon that.....

WS, though hard to see when they have used you as a weapon are very very damaged inside.....

they can not face that damage...and since that damage is YOU the BS...they often can not face you..

so they continue to waffle and wallow in the path that brought them to this place...

the way of rationalizing and justifying downright no two ways about it dispicable behavior acts....

force them to the face and process at once..
they will withdrawal
they will deny
they will retaliate

or even worse they will self destruct themselves....

be still....

don't force responses and actions and answers...be still and know that their non-responses , non actions and non answers ARE their answers....and you can hold them accountable to that

be still
and then make your moves....

ARK^^ [/color]

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OK...everyone is bumping up the old classic threads today which has given me the ability to capture these classics for you newbies all in one swoop.

Here is another ARK^^ classic. It may have been referred to earlier, either directly or indirectly, but "being the lighthouse" is a common reference on this board and ARK^^'s post/thread is the reason why.

This time I included the whole thread because it does contain some discussion on the topic and you will see others that came before that feel just like you do now.

Here is the link ----> [b] "Be the lighthouse...a post for those feeling tossed in the waves" [/b]

Mr. Wondering


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Here's another valuable Post (thread inclusive) that got bumped up today. It's written by Dorry, another venerated MB poster that has since apparently moved on with her life. She herself is a FORMER Wayward Wife who then about 8 months later experienced being a Betrayed Spouse when her husband had a revenge affair (which I strongly suggest all you newbies vigorously defend/protect yourself diligently from becoming...YOU are vulnerable right now and becoming Wayward yourself solves NOTHING...avoid opposite sex relationships and support like the plague).


I'm just a linking madman today.


-----> [b] A Recovery Guide for Wayward Wives [/b]


Mr. Wondering


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Hello again;

Don't you find this place odd???

Some of the advice just seems sooooo counterintuitive you may be thinking these people are nuts, or at the very least, fanatics, zealots, whatever.

Well, you are not alone. All of us felt upon arrival that this place seemed a bit odd, perhaps even cult-like.

Well here is a link to a thread wherein many posters shared their initial reactions to MB.

Here's the link ------> [b] What did you think of MB when you first came here? [/b]

So that about covers it. Neither YOU nor your WS are unique.

Mr. Wondering


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Shesha

This is a "pinned" thread to the top of the board. It's not to likely that any regular poster is going to see it.

Please Copy and paste the above post. Then head over to the infidelity General Questions Board, click the "post" button and start your own new thread therein. GQII is the most active board in this support forum. You'll get plenty of advice therein.

Mr. Wondering

edited to add: actually it may be good to note that anyone posting on this thread for help will eventually have their posts deleted. Start your own thread for advice no one will see it here until long after you're gone.


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Bump for BC...

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Bumpers...

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Betrayal is terrible. And I agree the extent of the denial of the betrayer is major. During a period of significant disagreements, I found out that my wife was e-mailing a male "friend" regularly, complaining about me behind my back, sharing intimate details of our marriage, encouraging him to call her at any time, and even suggesting that she might use a pay phone as as not to "get into trouble" with me. I found out that there had been meetings with him that were kept totally secret from me. In turn, I was accused of having an affair, of not understanding her "friendship". She told this friend in e-mails that she was not going to let me see her cell phone bills because that was her business.

Subsequently, she began not coming to bed with me...staying up to 2, 3, and 4AM because she was not tired, had insomnia, etc.

The denial comes from the fact that she insists that I am "paranoid".

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JJ,

Sorry you find youself needing help on this forum, but welcome anyway.

I would recommend you start your own thread in the GQII (general questions II) section of the forum LINK. You will find that part of the forum receives alot more traffic. As result, gets more attention.

From the sound of it... You are dealing with very typical Emotional affair (EA), and very possibly has or will become a Physical Affair (PA).

When you post your information do not hesitate to make it lenghty, and in depth on the Affair (A), and also what some history, family makeup, what has lead you to this horrible situation.

Again sorry you find yourself needing this type of advice.

-JKT

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Thanks very much, still getting to know the rules etc. around here.

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If you are still around.

Copy and paste the above post over onto the Infidelity Gen'l Questions II (the most active board on this website).

1. Call the OM's wife. She MAY not know anything about her husbands activities and deserves the truth about her life.

2. Read "Joseph's letter". Redraft it for your situation and give it to your wife. You can't just sweep a FIVE YEAR affair under the rug. Your wife must get to the why it happened and how wrong and destructive it was lest it happen again (or just continue with this joker only much deeper underground).

3. Your wife should NEVER go out of town without you again (and such "rule" should be HER perogative to protect HER marriage to you...not your demand)

4. Perhaps purchase Surviving an Affair and His Needs, Her Needs

5. Attend a marriage Builders Weekend.

6. Read [edited-Longhorn's signature line link] Spying 101 thread as they may still be in secret contact somehow.

7. Don't bring your wife to these forums until you KNOW the affair is over and you are truly recovering. Use these forums for YOUR support for now.
Good luck...hope to see you over on GQII soon.

Mr. Wondering

Last edited by MrWondering; 04/07/07 06:05 PM.

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<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

'Taint my "Spying 101" thread, Mr. W., but it is a highly valuable tool.

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Soy,

Copy and repost your inquiry over onto the Infidelity - General Questions Board. It's a lot busier and you are sure to get some responses.

Also...read the "Spying 101" thread which you can link to off of Longhorns' signature line. Without proof you really can't expose to OW's husband. They will certainly deny it and make you appear to be insane. Perhaps you only need make a copy of husband's cell phone bill to verify they are having or had an affair.

In the meantime, sit back quietly and collect your data. Research and prepare a potential list of exposure targets and contact informaiton like WH's and OW's bosses, administrators, co-workers, board of directors, mentors, family & friends.

As a medical professional your husband's sense of entitlement is likely ENORMOUS. He will take a long time to admit, acknowledge, internalize his wrongdoing. He's gonna be very foggy for awhile and only YOU can lead him out of this. Perhaps. Either way...you will make it.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. Any kids????


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IT all started on my Aniversery when I requested to my wife that I would like a second child. She told me that she thought we needed counseling. I agreed to go but she said that she wanted to go first to see if it was her.

That was on December 1st. Now since then I have requested 3x's to go to a counseler and it was not until I severly pushed the issue that she scheduled it. I did find one myself on referral but she said that that doctor was out of network.

Well, I just found out that she is having an affair. She started seeing him in December, it got physical in January and I found out 2 weeks ago by looking at phone records.

All she says that she thinks we need to go to counseling. But I am not given any evidence that she want it to work. Looking at the phone records I see that she called him after I went to bed on by birthday. I see that on Valentine's day when my daughter and I decorated the house for her, and the wife was home she still called him several times.

Now I want this to work but I don't see any evidence that she wants this to work. When I ask her why she would want it to work she cannot answer

She works with this guy and I asked her to quit but her shrink told her that would be stupid.

What is the point of going to counseling if she has her doubts. And why would she do this when we were suppose to go to counseling to try to work it out?

As you can tell, I am very confused.

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Her "counselor" is an idiot (assuming her counselor in fact told her quitting was stupid as Waywards spouses LIE...YOU CAN'T TRUST a single thing she says right now).

You can't WORK on your marriage with a third party interloping. You've got to Plan A her. Expose the affair. Bust up the affair FIRST...then you may have a shot at recovery.

Start your own thread over on General Questions II as this thread is a pinned thread and not a good place for you to seek advice.

Sorry you find yourself in this situation. MB is a solid plan for your situation...I say...give it a shot (but DON'T bring your wife here...yet)

Mr. Wondering


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hello - this is an amazing site and already it has helped to know that what I'm feeling is perfectly *normal*. I discovered last FRiday that my husband has been unfaithful. We are not using the word "Affair" because it isn't/wasn't an affair. He knew the female through his work and has known her for many, many years but in the last few weeks when he's had to visit her place of work the friendship took a different twist and they had sex on two separate occasions. When I found out he held his hands up and admitted everything - her name, where she works etc and I have checked all this out and it is true. I have spoken to her personally and she clearly hoped the relationship would go further. I have witnessed him telling her not to contact him again and he has told her he wants to rebuild his relationship with me. I have seen her emailed reply where she has said she will make no more contact. What I have to do now is try to trust him again and be able to put the picture I have of them together out of my mind. Am I asking too much to be able to do that? He has never been unfaithful before and is unable to give me a proper explanation to the "why did you do it" question and his reply to "how did you feel after you'd done it" was "dirty". If he felt dirty, why did he go back for seconds? Should I keep picking away at this question or should I try to put it behind me and move forward?

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Jigsaw,

We don't really monitor this thread. It's pinned to the top of the board and really nobody takes a second look at it. It's just there...all the time.

Thus, you really need to read through the entire thread and notice that we have recommended you copy and paste your above post over on the GQII board where there is substantially more activity.

Sorry to see you here...it most definitely WAS an physical affair and recovery involves a lot more than just "putting it behind you and moving forward". To me...that's just begging for it to happen again. You and your marriage are worth more than that I'm sure.

Further...you don't HAVE to trust him. We trust people that are trustworthy. Your husband has PROVEN he is not. In the future, through actions matching words and when you find yourself in a passionate recovered marriage you can trust him again. But blind trust is NOT love. It is him that must go the extra mile to make you certain of his actions. Keep inspecting what you expect. You should have FULL access to everything. There are no secrets in marriage.

Please continue posting...you appear to be in a bit of shock right now and vulnerable. It's early in this process for you. You don't have to figure this all out in a week. Most marriages recover in your situation, over time; but, regardless...YOU WILL MAKE IT.

Mr. Wondering


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I don't know if Mr. W still looks at these posts, but THANK YOU! My wh's lover was a younger woman and I did feel threatened and so disrepected by how easily I was replaced by her. She was in high school when we married! You're acknowledgement that she wasn't "better" helped so much because your description of what she is and is not was right on and did wonders for my self esteem!


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Quote
We are not using the word "Affair" because it isn't/wasn't an affair.

Jigsaw, yes it was an affair. It was adultery. He formed an inappropriate, physical and emotional relationship with another woman. If you try to just "get over it," it will haunt you the rest of your marriage and perhaps your life. Go over to General Questions II (GQII) and start a thread there, okay? This forum has very few viewers and you're going to need the assistance of some well schooled MB veterans to help you and your wayward husband recover from this.

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I am not newly betrayed, been almost 2 yrs and I still have trouble. I am new to this, not read plan A and B but in your post about moving out, this is what caused or I guess caused the infidelity, I moved out to separate due to drinking and hoped that would be a wake up call and he would miss me, instead he got angry and started seeing someone else, once I found out, he quit and said it meant nothing and we have reconciled but I still cannot deal with it at times. I guess this is a totally different deal, he says the leaving him caused the affair (2 mos long, sex twice) and the drinking. He is very remorseful and things would be great if I could let go.

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<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Quote
he says the leaving him caused the affair


well then, I guess he is just about the weakest man on the planet!

JUST silly alcoholic wayward blame-shifting

this is nothing more than a thinly veiled threat

don't buy it for one second

Quote
He is very remorseful and things would be great if I could let go.


Have you been to marriage counseling together?

If not, you need to go.

"Let go" is NOT what happends during recovery ... "work through" and "solve" the underlying problems is what happends ....

If the drinking persists .... you have bigger issues than the affair

is he still drinking?

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When I found out about his cheating 2 mos after I moved, I confronted him and he ended it then with her, quit drinking and we reconciled and he really has been a good man to be with, he did not really tell me leaving him made him do it, just concluded that myself from reading some of this other posts and Dr. Harley when he said separating or being apart is an invitation to cheating, unless I misunderstood.

He does not drink anymore, has had nor wanted to have any contact with OW. I think he is embarrassed about the whole thing, it was not about just sex given the numerous opportunites and he had it twice with erection problems at that-I even called OW and she confirmed that. I think from reading the Harley info that it was the emotional need from the daily contact he needed plus his ego was hurt because I left him because he did not fill my emotional needs and drank. Yes, we had a lot of issues going on and I am not excusing his behavior, he was weak-he is just so different now that I have to believe he was in a really bad place and by chance (someone he already knew)that was in a bad place-they have each other for support and feel needed. He had never done this before in 22 yrs and don't think he would have if I had not moved. Again, I am just trying to understand what would drive someone to do this, not excuse it when I read this other posts and the OW is still in picture,etc. I had another thread that was How did we move to adultery? that explains history. I am so glad someone replied, it helps me.

Yes, we did go to counselor and I felt like she was not very helpful to me, more or less, one 2mo long "fling" no big deal, he is remorseful, quit drinking, obviously loves you so get over routine. I wish she would have asked him questions as to why he did it and help him work through it and then maybe I could have understood it better, he does not seem to know himself. As for a better piece of [censored], she was not all that good looking and slept around a lot so as I read Harley put it, sometimes it is not about looks, it is about someone else feeling that emotional need.

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In additon to above post, we are not going to counseling now but I think for the first time I am not trying to wallow in my pain and punish him with it, but really try to understand why we both hurt each other so much. Without his drinking , I have nothing to argue about or criticize and he is a nice person, alwasy was fun to be around except when drunk. I am just trying to accept my part in all this, too. Yes, he sure could have found a better way, but when think if the situation were reversed and he had left me, I lost my job, I drank, I think I might have looked for "love" in all the wrong places too.

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Peppercorn, I do appreciate your input, however, if I cannot understand his behavior with drinking, hitting rock bottom, being human, etc. What reason can I give that would make sense to me and I can live with, how do I work through this if I at least don't try to grasp where he was at that point in his life. Are you saying there is no acceptable explanation for adultery except to say it was weak. I agree with the weak part, it was selfish, it was terrible, well how do I work on my marriage with a man who has "seen the light" if I cannot accept his explanations, he knows he was weak and really did not care if he lived another day or night as he was drinking so heavily. Help-I am more confused.

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Jigsaw,

Your story sounds so much like mine. Had sex twice and felt guilty and sex as not all that great, no emotion involved so I asked same question-why go for it a second time. I am still asking and it has been 1 and half yrs ago so please feel normal. We are going to MC and making some baby steps for me but that will be my very question to see if she can prompt him to understand the why I am asking and figure it out for himself. He seems genuinely confused when he says, I don't know. Hang in there-Lindy

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Would Harley's book "Surviving an Affair" be appropriate for both the betrayed spouse and wayward spouse or just for the betrayed spouse?

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Narobi, that would depend on the mental state "Fog" of the WS. I would recommend you start a thread with your story on the General Questions II section of the forum.

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great information, its important to get inside the mind of your spouse.

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Bump for the newbies...

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I am new to this message board and the betrayal thing too. What I am trying to figure out is "When should I have sex with my husband again"? I don't think I can until he has moved on a bit from his relationship with a coworker---one that he still has to see at work.

Anyone have comments for me?

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Just checking in...

Berniece, I presume you've figured out by now that this is not an active thread. It's more of a resource thread for lurkers and potential new members. You and others are much more likely to get responses by starting your own new threads.

Mr. Wondering


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Thanks to the poster "Lino", I re-discoverd a prayer that I had used back in 2005 when I was trying to bust up my wife's affair. Hope it can help others as well.

Here it is:



[color:"blue"] Hedge Prayer for Return of a Wayward Spouse

[The Prayer of Hosea is one of the most powerful prayers in the arsenal of spiritual warfare -- the Hedge Prayer. Hosea had a wife who was committing adultery and running around on him. Hosea was convinced that he not divorce her but to pray for her return. This prayer is particularly useful in praying for a wayward spouse, child, or friend who has gone astray from the Faith and from God, has left to lead an improper life, and/or is estranged from the proper relationship they should have with you.

It should be noted, as it is with all prayer, the Hedge Prayer is not a magic bullet. There are no guarantees that the person prayed for will return. We must always remember that God has given his children the freedom to choose -- even the freedom to choose wrongly. No one, not even God, may force a person against their will to do anything. God, however, is a mighty persuader and although He will not intrude upon one's freedom to choose the course of one's own actions, He may provide the person with great incentive, motivation, and circumstances to help them decide to come back to the place they should be.

For she said, 'I will go after my lovers, who give me my bread and my water, my wool and my flax, my oil and my drink.' Therefore I will hedge up her way with thorns; and I will build a wall against her, so that she cannot find her paths. She shall pursue her lovers, but not overtake them; and she shall seek them, but shall not find them. Then she shall say, 'I will go and return to my first husband, for it was better with me then than now.' --Hosea 2:5b-7]

Trusting in the promise that whatever we ask the Father in Jesus' name He will do, I now approach You Father with confidence in Our Lord's words and in Your infinite power and love for me and for my [husband/wife, person's name] and with the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, Blessed Archangel Michael, the guardian angels of myself and [person's name] , with all the saints and angels of heaven, and Holy in the power of His blessed Name, as ask you Father to send forth Your Spirit to convict [person's name] and to allow him/her to see any and all wrongs that he has done and how they offend Your infinite goodness.

Father I ask in sorrow, knowing that You do not intrude upon free will, but that You can give Divine Influence like you did with Hosea's wife, that You send a hedge of thorns and wall around [person's name] so that he/she cannot find the paths that lead him/her away from me and our marriage, and though he/she shall pursue his/her [i.e. lovers, lifestyle, sinful ways, etc.] , he/she will not [i.e. overtake them, practice improper lifestyles, engage in sin, etc.] ; though he/she shall seek [i.e. lovers, improper lifestyle, sin, etc.] , he/she shall not find [i.e. them, desired lifestyle, the sin that draws him, etc.] ; that no matter what path or what [i.e. lover, lifestyle, sin, etc.] he/she seeks he/she shall not find satisfaction or happiness until he/she returns to me, his/her wife/husband where he/she may then be taught by Your Holy Spirit the true meaning of marriage and sexuality and to be a good and loving wife/husband, and to know the ways of righteousness and true womanhood/manhood.

Father, I am powerless against these spiritual forces and recognize my utter dependence on You and Your power. Look with mercy upon me and upon my wife/husband. Do not look upon our sins, O Lord; rather, look at the sufferings of your Beloved Son and see the Victim who's bitter passion and death has reconciled us to You. By the victory of the cross, protect us from all evil and rebuke any evil spirits who are attacking or influencing us in any way. Send them back to h-ll and place a wall of protection around this marriage. Send your Holy Angels to watch over us and protect us.

Father, all of these things I ask in the most holy name of Jesus Christ, Your Son. Thank you, Father, for hearing my prayer. I love You, I worship You, I thank You and I trust in You. Amen. [/color]


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Mr. W,
I am one of those aforementioned lurkers! I popped in to see what was in here and I really liked this prayer. I'm going to print it out and keep it with the rest of them I have beside my bed to say nightly.

Thanks. Maybe you can repost it to eh GQ board. It's worth it.


"Love the life you live, live the life you love." Bob Marley BS(me)37 WH(37) DS1 Dau from prev M 16 Married 4/06 D-day 6/06, again 11/06, again 4/07 Plan A'd all over the place, then Injunction 10/07, WH moved in with OW WH has own place 12/07 1/08 Plan B
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Basically I added something to a paragraph in the original poster's thread.

"There may be something about having found their soul mate, the one they’ve been searching for all their life. Oh…by the way…they’ve never been happy with you. They’ll tell you that. Guess what? The marriage with you has been a sham for the last (insert number) years…or, sometimes, since the beginning. Or, the marriage has been unfulfilling for (insert number of years). Or, all of a sudden "we are not compatible" or "we have nothing in common". Here’s one that spews from their mouth quite often. “I never loved you…or haven’t loved you for (insert number of years) or I love you but not in love with you…. but I want to stay friends with you so the children won’t be hurt.” "

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Haven't added anything in quite awhile to this thread but I came across this excellent thread entitled, "Inside The Wayward Mind" authored by Resonance, one of our newest FORMER wayward wive's over on the General Questions II board.

The thread speaks for itself. It summarizes (at great lenght)the mindset of a wayward spouse.


Link to "INSIDE THE WAYWARD MIND" by Resonance


Mr. Wondering


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Thanks for the great information. I am new to the forum. Just signed up a few days ago. Really glad I did. Found out about the affair 4 months ago. Husband moved in with OW last month. Feels hopeless but still trying to persevere.

I have a post under infidelity/General Questions II under: Advice-Newby-Husband moved in with OW.

Any advice welcome. Thanks again.

Last edited by Trying2live; 09/05/08 02:03 AM.

Me-39 H-38/Married 19years/DD18 & DS10
Dday EA/PA 4/23/08 Left home 5/08/08
Moved in w/Sea Hag 08/01/08
Read SAA Sept 08 Plan A 10/03/08 thru 11/15/08
Plan B 11/15/08-currently
01/18/09 Plan B crack w/phone call restating PBL
01/31/09 Planned brief contact
02/15/09 Delivery of Planned 2nd PBL
Filed for D Dec 2009 Recovering well!
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Recently joined (this week) and interested in your Plan A Do's/Dont's. Have a couple of questions if you could comment on
1. #1 Do - Hard to "Act Happy" thses are the saddest days of my life.( Actally dI don't need a comment on this one it's a rhetorical response that I had to get out of the way. Question is, how do YOU act happy?
2. #1 Dont -I say it over and over because I had a hard time saying it before. Now it is very much easier and makes me feel better.
# 6 Don't - I don't comprehend why I should tell the OP's Spouse. In my case I believe she is a fragile person (Alcoholic) and I am fearful of the consequences.

Keep up the good work, it is helpful.


Me 62, WW age 58, married 5/73
Two son's, 8/75 and 6/80
d-day 9/08; OM was W's school mate 40 years ago
Both living at home - WW want to move out
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Thought this belonged here...

Originally Posted by Danine
This is my take on the stages one goes through following the discovery of marital infidelity. I hope it can help provide comfort in knowing that there is light at the end of the tunnel.

You've found the evidence, have confronted your spouse, and are now trying to figure out if the marriage can be repaired. You are wondering if you will ever love, trust or be able to get over the hurt, rage and jealousy which results from discovering your mate had an affair. You feel all alone in your grief and are wondering what comes next in this process. Well, let me walk you through what I believe are the phases, and what you can expect to find down this long, dark road toward recovery.

#1 The initial shock. This is the phase where you are simply in disbelief. You cannot comprehend that your spouse was physically or emotionally intimate with someone other than yourself. You start piecing the puzzle together and realize that so much of your reality was actually a lie. During this phase you are simply in a fog while you try to make sense of what is going on and figure out if this is all some sort of bad dream.

#2 Rage. You begin to realize that this is actually happening and not some cruel joke. During this phase you may become physically ill and find you are simply unable to get out of bed, go to work, or interact with others in your world. It is not uncommon for you to have episodes of crying, throwing things, breaking objects, screaming, fighting, and generally behaving way out of control. You cannot see past the anger and may choose to express your rage in ways that are dangerous, unhealthy, or illegal.

#3 The desire for revenge. This is the point where you are the most dangerous. You are not thinking clearly and simply want to enact revenge upon those who you feel have wronged you. You may begin plotting and planning ways to get back at either the other man/woman, or your spouse. Thoughts of a revenge affair move to the fore-front of your mind and you may begin thinking of who you can sleep with in order to even the score with your spouse. You start looking for ways to bring down your spouse's lover by hurting him/her personally, professionally, or financially. Please remember, this phase will pass, and pure emotional decisions rooted in pain often lead to actions which one later regrets.

#4 Letting go of the anger. At this point the initial, violent, active rage subsides and you are left with a dull ache and the feeling of being emotionally wiped out. This is typically the time when you can begin to entertain the notion of reconciliation, or begin taking steps to end the marriage. Although deeply hurt, you begin thinking more logically and are not as consumed with revenge but rather are more interested in taking an assessment of your life, goals and where you would like your marriage to go from here. You begin focusing a little less on the other man/woman and more on your spouse and the mess they have made in your marriage. During this phase, you are often simply too tired to fight, cry or re-live the horror 24 hours a day, and are beginning to desire closure, one way or another.

#5 Picking up the pieces. If you are planning and able to put your marriage back together, this is the point where you need complete, unwavering, total cooperation from the cheater. He/she needs to know that this is going to be a looooong, drawn out process, which will only be longer if they set up roadblocks to your recovery. Things the cheater does which hinder progress include, refusing to answer questions regarding things that you have a right to know, continued contact with the other man/woman, minimizing the situation or putting the blame back on the victim, or setting a time limit for when the victim should be "over it". All these things are detrimental to the recovery of the relationship and make it nearly impossible for there to ever be true healing. If you are not planning to put your marriage back together then this is the time you need to begin seeking space and time fillers. I don't mean people that you run to on the rebound and then screw up their lives for the sake of your recovery. I mean activities and interests that you move to the front of your life in order to fill up the empty space left by the loss of companionship. This will be a lonely time but if you choose to sit around sulking and feeling sorry for yourself, you will remain in this space indefinitely.

#6 Learning to trust again. This is a difficult phase regardless of whether you are trying to repair your current relationship or begin a new one. I don't advise beginning a new one anytime soon, however, because you need time to heal and be comfortable being with yourself before bringing another person into your world. If you are trying to rebuild your marriage, learning to trust comes only from seeing a cheater lay all of his/her cards on the table and them making their life an open book. This is an extremely long, slow process which plain and simply can only improve with the passage of time. Once enough of your mate's stories check out as true, and when you can feel with complete certainty that he/she is no longer communicating with the other man/woman, then you are on your way to learning to trust again. But, as previously mentioned, if the cheater is not helping you along in the process then it simply will not work. Additionally, if you are dealing with a serial cheater, or one who continues to cheat even though they have vowed fidelity, this process will never end. Therefore, you likely can not, nor will not, ever rebuild the trust necessary for a healthy marriage.

#7 Dealing with triggers. Triggers are certain names, places and events which painfully remind you of the time your spouse was having an affair. Perhaps it is a certain song that was popular during the time of the affair, or a restaurant or motel he/she told you they visited. Triggers also come in the form of seeing someone who reminds you of the other man/woman or hearing their name. Often looking back at old photos will become a trigger if in the photo you are standing there smiling at the camera, unaware that your spouse was sleeping with someone else at the time. There is really no remedy for triggers or way to avoid them. The only thing to do is to keep from obsessing over them and driving yourself crazy about things which you cannot control.

#8 Setting realistic goals. This is the point when you need to figure out whether or not you will be able to continue in your present relationship. Of course, it will never be the same, and following traumatic events you must settle into your "new reality". But, can you continue to live in this manner? Do you feel comfortable that you will be able to trust your spouse again and not keep beating them over the head everyday with questions and comments about the affair? Have they taken responsibility for their actions, tried to repair the relationship, and vowed never to repeat the behavior? If so, and if you feel that with time the relationship can be fixed, then moving on in your marriage is a realistic goal. If on the other hand, your spouse refuses to acknowledge the affair, will not answer questions, behaves suspiciously and continues contact with the other man/woman, you need to ascertain if you can indeed continue to live with this. If not, then reconciliation is not a realistic relationship goal. Only you can do the assessment here, and although input from others might be nice, in the long run you need to take this time to access what is in your best interest yourself.

#9 Finding a healthy new self. With or without him/her, you will recover and you will be okay. Yes, it does take time, but you will emerge from this a healthier, stronger more aware person. Hopefully you will recognize that you cannot entrust another individual with total responsibility for your happiness. During this process, you should do quite a bit of soul searching in order to discover if there was anything you could have done differently to strengthen the bond in your relationship. Becoming too needy, and overly dependent upon your spouse is never a good thing. Therefore, you need to develop hobbies, friends and interests of your own. That way if your relationship does not work out, you have a cushion to fall on, and if it does work out, you have used this experience for personal growth. There is a lot to be learned about yourself, your spouse and your relationship following an affair. Be sure not to look past the lesson, in order to stay focused on the pain. Remember, that which does not kill us makes us stronger.

I hope this list was helpful,
Danine-

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This is very typical. They turn their anger at what they have done towards you. Disregard it. They will say and do ANYTHING during this time. May start to hear "I don't love you any more" I don't think I ever was, Our marriage has been a sham, so forth and so on. I have heard it all. (spouse is in at least 10 month affair) moved out.

By saying these things, it allows them to not feel the guilt and shame. They can put their head on the pillow when the go to sleep.

The best way to get through what they say is remember they are not in the place to be a moral authority. Nothing they say means anything until the come clean, and seek help. Then, and only then can you start to hear what they have to say.

Good luck.

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Originally Posted by personal favorite quote
"Nietzsche was the one who did the job for me. At a certain moment in his life, the idea came to him of what he called "the love of your fate." Whatever your fate is, whatever the hell happens, you say, "This is what I need." It may look like a wreck, but go at it as though it were an opportunity, a challenge. If you bring love to that moment—not discouragement—you will find the strength is there. Any disaster that you can survive is an improvement in your character, your stature, and your life. What a privilege! This is when the spontaneity of your own nature will have a chance to flow. Then, when looking back at your life, you will see that the moments which seemed to be great failures followed by wreckage were the incidents that shaped the life you have now. You'll see that this is really true. Nothing can happen to you that is not positive. Even though it looks and feels at the moment like a negative crisis, it is not. The crisis throws you back, and when you are required to exhibit strength, it comes."


~ Joseph Campbell



FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
DD19 DS 22 Dday-2005-Recovered

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Been awhile...but I wanted to paste in what I believe is another "notable post" by Doormatnomore (formerly Barnboy) made today to a BH (Patriot) shortly after he exposed his wife's affair. The affair came crashing down and OM chewed her out and ended it. She called Patriot begging to come home, end her affair and TRY to salvage their marriage. Despite saying some really hurtful things to Patriot yesterday upon the discovery that she'd been exposed (all WS's go ballistic upon exposure) she APPEARS to now be willing to try and recovery their marriage after months of carrying on a physical affair.

Here's what Doormat had to say (I highlighted in red a particularly accurate statement that I, too, experience]:

Originally Posted by Doormatnomore
@patriot45,

I hope you don't mind me chiming in again.

When she comes back, you have just one job: be the husband she needs.

* PROTECT HER from your anger, disrespect, and demands by learning to say "This conversation isn't safe for me right now. I'd love to talk later." Walk away and do something else if that happens.

* PROTECT YOURSELF from her anger, disrespect, and demands by learning to say "This conversation isn't safe for me right now. I'd love to talk later. Walk away and do something else if that happens.

* MEET HER NEEDS, particularly affection and conversation, by asking "How can I help you?" and "How do you feel if...?" questions, as well as demonstrating physical affection and finding ways to show her you are always thinking about her.

* INVITE HER TO MEET YOUR NEEDS using thoughtful requests and respectful persuasion. Frame each request or persuasion attempt in your mind using "How would you feel about..." or "I'd love it if..." questions/statements that avoid use of the word "YOU" anywhere in them. Think "I'd love it if we could find a way to meet my need for openness & honesty together", or "How would you feel about taking a few days off work so we can be together?" Don't expect a lot of results for several weeks or months, though, until her addiction wears off.

* SPEND UNINTERRUPTED TIME TOGETHER, a bare minimum of 15 hours per week (but shoot for 30!). Ensure during this time you are giving one another undivided attention without distractions. This may mean booking flights together if she goes out of town from now on (and finding a nanny), or coming to a mutually-enthusiastic agreement of a change in her job responsibilities to avoid spending overnights away from you ever again.

* BE HONEST with her about your feelings in a non-judgmental way. "I'm sad today because I'm thinking about all that has happened" or "I am happy you are home."

* REWARD HER HONESTY by learning to say "Thank you for being honest" while not allowing yourself to become defensive even if her honesty sounds accusatory. Do not interrupt to correct her, and practice expressing how her accusations make you feel rather than stating why they are wrong.

* ESTABLISH EXTRAORDINARY PRECAUTIONS to prevent recidivism, as recommended in "Surviving An Affair". Discover the real reasons the affair happened. Hint: none of the real reasons will blame you. They will all deal with her, her feelings, and her own precautions, or possibly joint precautions. Part of those EPs, though, is complete and radical honesty with you for the rest of her life... enforced through whatever technological or process changes you think are appropriate to make sure you know even when she doesn't want you to know.

Remember those EPs include your full access to every password, every account, every mailing, any and every piece of information that you need to reassure yourself she's not having another affair. Complete, absolute transparency. Remind her it's not a punishment, but a way to fill your emotional need for openness & honesty.

* EXPECT APPROACH-AVOIDANCE. She may have the attraction/repulsion dynamic going on here, wanting to be with you when she's away from you, and wanting to be away from you when she's with you. Figure out what repulses her -- probably Love Busters -- and find ways to remedy them together.

Remember always that she is totally responsible for how you feel about her, and you are totally responsible for how she feels about you. You cannot change your own feelings toward her: she must. She cannot change her own feelings toward you: you must. Treat that as a sacred responsibility to nurse her back to health after these horrible, tragic events occurred. They happened completely due to her own decisions, but she needs time to heal, nonetheless.

Expect withdrawal.

To sum up again:
* PROTECTION
* CARE
* TIME
* HONESTY
* EXCLUSIVE NEED-MEETING
* POJA

Expect her honesty to grow with time, and for her to have some difficulty talking about things at first. Remember that EVERY conversation about the affair has a cost in Love Units withdrawn when she accesses that memory bank. Plan to keep such conversations to a minimum. It's helpful to write down your questions and plan to discuss them at a certain time on a certain day each week so you can keep those Love Unit Withdrawals to a minimum. Avoid "Why" questions, if you have them, and focus on "What", "When", "Where", and "With Whom" questions, because "Why" questions can be answered by understanding Love Bank balances, exclusive need-meeting, and independent behavior + dishonesty being requirements for conducting an affair.

Good luck, bro. We're here.
_________________________
Doormat_No_More (Formerly Barnboy)
Story for now (original lost in the Great MarriageBuilders Forum Purge of '09.)

* Her: FWW35, Me: FBH36
* 4 kids: DD14, DS12, DS8, DS6
* WW EA 01/09 thru 08/09.
* D-day 03/09, final D-Day 07/28/09 after proof via VAR.
* Found MarriageBuilders 08/01/09. "Plan Doormat" March through July, Plan A in August.
* NC sent. In recovery 08/25/09. Recovery is hard.


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
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Mr. Wondering, thank you for both the quote by Joseph Campbell and the last post. I really appreciated them. ^_^
-=Phoenix


-= Phoenix
I am BW-25
WH-27
Married since 7/07
A from 1/09-7/09

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You have no idea how this post helped me
I keep asking myself what does she have that I don't
I keep myself up I keep a nice home.
He seen someone that worked where he did me moved out for 3 months came back 8 months ago...
I have said No contact
he has sent her jokes I know that weather they are emailing from work I don't know
I knew he isn't seeing her he is home all the time even if he is running 5 min late from work he will call me says he doesn't want me thinking anything is going on.
He changed jobs 2 moths after coming back home..
so no longer works where she does...
He is trying really hard it seems but will still send on jokes to her
I don't know what to do about this he doesn't know I know this...
happens once or twice a month...
we don't have sex that bothers me a great deal but have to say he does have trouble in that since his heart attack
I do know he tried Viagra while gone from here the PI I had told me that... He had sent for some in the mail...
He says he loves me and I had to adopted my grand daughter who is 5 and loves him a great deal looks at him as daddy
she was a mess when he was gone....
So I am doing my best here to work this out and save us all...
And your post made me feel much better
Thank You

Last edited by sunshine4848; 02/25/10 11:04 AM.
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You are welcome sunshine. I'm glad this thread helped you.

I wanted to post today to park a link here that I reference often on the board.*

*I know some of the links earlier in this thread don't work anymore but this one is much newer and should work, at least, until the next upgrade.

The topic is self-explanatory. It's a discussion regarding the often difficult to define term "boundaries" versus manipulation and control.

BOUNDARIES VS. MANIPULATION/CONTROL - An Open Discussion

Mr. Wondering


FBH(me)-51 FWW-49 (MrsWondering)
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Longhorn,

I would only really add one thing, and I'm not sure where i'd put it in there... That's to never make a promise right after dday, and to control your speech as much as you are able. One of the mistakes I made right after i found out was making what I call "schizo-promises". Promise one thing, take it back and promise another... Just a thought...

CV


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3 young adult children


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A thread about Extraordinary Precautions (including extraordinary precautions as a part of the concept of "Just Compensation")

[u]Extraordinary Precautions[/u] by HerPapaBear

Mr. Wondering


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Here's a post SunnyDinTX made in the recovery forum 9 months after she used exposure to quickly turn things around in her situation. From her signature line she had endured 6 months of hell not knowing what to do. Sure she "stayed calm" but until she got to the root of the problem...getting the truth about her life and THEN "busting up the affair" she didn't have a chance.

Me(45) WH (42)
Married - 20 yrs
Daughter (19)
Son (17)
Son (15)
Bomb 4/29/10 (ILYBNILWY)
EA Discovery: 6/15/10
New Beg. weekend 7/30/10
Discovered EA not ended - turned PA (physical Affair) 10/10/10
(PA was 3-4 months, EA was 7-8 months)
Confronted H - he left 10/15
Exposed A 10/17
A busted! 10/19
H moved back home 11/20
Recovery going well with MB at home


Please note that after 6 months of trying to do this on her own and even going to a "new beginnings" weekend seminar in August, 2010...nothing worked [her WH was merely appeasing her while he "cake ate" dragging out both the marriage and the affair]. She was spinning her wheels until she really took control of the situation. Got the truth about the affair on Oct. 10, 2010. Kicked her husband out on Oct. 15th, started a thread on MB on Oct 16th, took the advice she received and quickly exposed the affair to friends and family (including OW's friends and family) on Oct 17 and by Oct 19th, 2010 the affair was OVER.

It took a few weeks of negotiation and WH was ready to commit to finally working a marital recovery program and he moved back home on November 20, 2010 (and important event in itself as privately she was getting advice to punish her WH and make him wait/suffer until after the holidays before "allowing" him back home - separation only makes recovery harder and it's hard enough in the first place).

Anyway...here's her first post on Recovery which also links back to her original thread on the Surviving an Affair forum.


Originally Posted by SunnyDinTX 8/28/2011
It was suggested I do a recovery thread since H and I are now into 9 months of recovery in the MB at home program. This is the *short* version. OK, so, not so short - but shorter than reading through my whole thread in the SAA forum. crazy

After 19+ years of marriage my husband up and told me in April 2010 that he was no longer in love with me. He claimed there was no one else, and that he knew he would never have "those feelings" for me again. Thankfully, I had read (years ago) James Dobson's book, Love Must be Tough - a GREAT book about the psychology of relationships and what to do and not do in marital crisis. Because of this, I was able to respond appropriately to H's bomb and NOT react emotionally. This was key, I feel, in eventually reconciling. Dr. Harley's works are a lot more specific in dealing with all of this, but Dobson helped me get the tough love mindset, being that I had no knowledge of Dr. Harley's works at the time.

Needless to say, I was shell-shocked by this bomb. It came out of nowhere for me at the time. In hindsight, I should've seen the warning signs that something was amiss. I immediately went to work on myself. Unknowingly I was in Plan A in MB terms. I did this for several months and even went back to school to finish my degree.

At the beginning of June, I discovered a very sexual text message H sent to me by mistake that was supposed to go to OW! Now, I had searched and searched for proof that there was someone else prior to this, but found nothing concrete. I'd seen some facebook messages I didn't like, but nothing incriminating. I immediately confronted H about it. He stated it was nothing - that it didn't matter anyway because he was planning on leaving. Basically, I said, "there's the door." I thought at the time because I'd stood tall against having a third party in my marriage and told him he was free to go and he chose not to, that he was ready to work on saving our marriage and give it a chance. I started counseling. He went once. That should've spoke to me louder than it did at the time.

At the end of July, we went to a "save your marriage" workshop held by New Beginnings. He didn't want to go but supposedly was working on the marriage at the time, so he grudgingly went with some pushing from our 3 kids. At the end of it, he was still unwilling to commit to the future of our relationship. Once again, I told him he was free to go if he wanted out and was not willing to look for hope that we could have a better life. Once again, he chose not to go. I was fortunate that New Beginnings uses a lot of Harley's works, including Fall In Love, Stay in Love.

After that, I started seeing some small improvements in H's behavior. He wasn't "back" but he was trying. Well, I now realize he was trying only so I wouldn't make him leave. He was torn. He didn't want to leave his kids and didn't want to be the bad guy by leaving me, but he was entangled in an affair. I found that out the beginning of October. (NEVER ignore that gut feeling and gather every bit of intel you can!)

Once I'd gathered the proof I needed, I confronted H about the OW. A big fight ensued and I gave him an ultimatum: end the affair, commit to saving the marriage, or go. He left. Within 2 days I exposed the affair to our 3 children (late teens) and found information on the OW and exposed to her husband's brother and sister-in-law and others I'd found on facebook. (I could not get direct contact info on the OWH.) H was LIVID, needless to say. I got text messages, emails, and phone calls that made my hair stand on end!!! However, within days the affair ended. H wanted to go to counseling. Then he said he wanted to work things out. After much discussion and boundaries set, H moved back home late November. We are now happily reconciling using the Marriage Builders at home program. LOVE it! There are challenges, for sure, but it is well worth it and I couldn't ask for things to be going better at this point.

I truly believe there were many keys to me maintaining my sanity and ability to lead us back from the brink of divorce:

#1: God gave me strength I never thought I could have. I prayed A LOT and read a lot of scripture that was very fortifying and encouraging.

#2: God put people in my life to provide support. It took some hand-holding to get through exposure, and the people here at MB were vital to me! Also, I got "real life" support through friends. I didn't tell everyone I know, but a few key friends I knew were pro-marriage and had my best interests at heart.

#3: I took care of myself and my kids. I took a hard look at what H had to say were my faults and realized some of those were true and I needed to change. I did and still am. I started taking better care of myself physically - exercising and eating right. I had heart to hearts with my 3 kids about what I needed to improve in my relationships with them. I became a more positive person. I also went to the doctor and was put on a very mild anti-depressant (short-term) to help me cope.

#4: Getting a life of my own helped give me the confidence I needed to overcome my feelings of how to react in my situation: to do what was best instead of how I felt - and overcome my fears in doing so. It also helped me start realizing my own self worth again!

#5: I absorbed the information from the forums and books. I thought it all through and employed what I felt best for my marriage. Harley's program made sense to me. Mainly, I think the principles I hung on to were that respect is at the bottom of every relationship. If you don't respect yourself, your spouse will not either. If your spouse does not respect you, he or she cannot love you!

I think "tough love" is also at the basis for every good method of dealing with all of this. You have to be tough - to hold your spouse accountable and maintain the line of self respect. However, you also have to be loving: anything you do that is mean, vindictive, or out of anger and lashing out is counter-productive. Finding the balance is HARD at times! Someone once called it being a "quiet warrior." I like that term. If you follow the plan and get good advice, it helps you find that balance.

If you are dealing with infidelity, you simply CAN NOT save your marriage with the 3rd person in it! You must get rid of that person in order to begin recovery of any sorts. Thus, you have to let go, set your spouse free, and by all means, expose the affair if it will do any good in your situation to end it. (I say the if part in that last sentence because this HAS to be done in the right way.) I was very fortunate to have someone lead me through this process step by step and others holding my hand while I did so.

Lastly, whatever you do, you must have WISE counsel throughout it all. Not all therapists are equal and not all advice is equal. Another must - getting past your fears of pushing your partner further away in the most trying circumstances. It's not for sissies! If you just look for people who tell you what you want to hear instead of what you need to hear, you'll never make it.

I'm sure after writing this I'll think of 10 other things to say. If you have any questions, let me know - I'm glad to help others through this very tough time.

If you are interested in more specifics, you can find them on my thread, here: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2435323#Post2435323


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Thank you for this , I have no idea how old it is, but I really needed to hear this.


BW -me 57
Ex-WH-him 62
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2 grown children
D-Day 06-08-2014
D-Day #2 07-11-2014 asked WH not to come home.
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Dear sirs,

I have been having an issue with the exposure aspect. In your posts you indicate that exposure is required to bust up an active affair. What happens with an affair that has already been busted? What then?

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nacho, you should take this question to your thread on Surviving an Affair. This is just an announcement thread and is not manned.

The answer to your question is that all affairs should be exposed even if the affair has ended. Please read through Dr Harley's "When Should an Affair be Exposed" thread. here


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Thank you for answering in both threads MelodyLane - I really appreciate it.

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