I always think too much about detail or over-analyze. Sometimes it saves me; other times it creates a fog. =)

I like what you suggest, and now it makes so much sense.

So I am assuming that you are saying to NOT say anything about how she is hurting me and to, instead, demonstrate it through leaving or Plan Bing for the moment. I feel silly asking for clarification since what you wrote says that clearly enough...but doubt is a persistant demon!

Its certain: July 15th.

Her cousin and I hung out, had some drinks, and talked for a bit to celebrate that I passed my tests for my promotion.

Anyhow we got to talking about my marriage and the affair and he is certain that as soon as she moves out (he doesn't know about Plan B), since I found out she is looking for a place, she will end up realizing what she has done and want me back. But he believes then I won't want her back...he'll see=) Regardless, July 15 is a good date since it will catch her by surprise and I think it is best I act before she does since it will tell her: I can live without you, even if I don't want to.

My W and him also talked about it later on and I wasn't within earshot most of the time, but I did hear her say something like, "I get just what I need out of this." Which tends to tell me that she DOESN'T love the OM and instead recognizes him as a temporary fix for the moment. Although I doubt she realizes how correct she is in saying that...come D-Day though and she won't be getting what she needs, and she'll feel it!

I've already made arrangements with my parents and one friend so I can move in with my parents, and be moved out of the house while she is away at work. Even though it is two months, I am both scared and excited since I believe this may be exactly what is needed to end the A, even if it takes a month or two after that.

BIG QUESTION:

She JUST told me that she will be moving out at the end of July. What do I do? Do I move out first? Do I stick with the 15th and then move back in if she does leave (which she probably won't if I'm gone first)? Do I simply wait and let her move out?

You stay there and see if she does move out. You also need to start exposing the affair.

When she starts talking to the OM in your home together, it is very disrespectful to you. Explain to her that she needs to stop.

Women do not respect a man they can walk all over.

I can explain to her that it is disrespectful that she speaks to him in our house, but I know she will get REALLY angry about that, claim I am holding her hostage, trying to control her etc.

...besides, I allowed it for so long, and it seems to make her move out for certain since we are 'over.'

I'm hesitant about doing it (obviously)...but unless someone else posts to stop me in time it will happen=)

Here is a copy of the e-mail I am going to send out to five people who have some degree of contact with myself, my W, and OM. Any suggestions? Am I saying too much? Too little?



I can't think of an appropriate way to begin this, so I won't worry about it.

I am writing because I'm crazy and obsessed, or at least that is what you will be or have been told; you be the judge! Actually, I am writing because I am trying to save the most important thing in my life. I would simply like to let you know a few things, judge none, demand nothing, and leave you with the information, none of which is secret.

What you need to know:

1) Ben is having a long-distance affair with my wife which began in August of 2005;
2) I foolishly 'allowed' it at the start, but now wish for nothing more than its end;
3) My wife and I are--for the moment--still married and living together;
4) Despite what you may have been told, the marriage was completely legit, even if forced by circumstances; and I do have proof of this in my journal, memories, and other people;
5) I love my wife more than I can describe, and am dedicated to this relationship, no matter what is said or done;
6) Yes, I did ****** up myself and have an affair, which is now completely dead and gone; I have learned my lesson, have made changes, and I understand why it occurred and have addressed those issues so it will not occur again;
7) Ben--based on what I know, which isn't much--is planning or thinking about moving to Las Vegas for the sole reason of being closer to my wife; I've heard that recently he has claimed other reasons, but I can't be an impartial judge;
8) I have never threatened, attempted to control, or hurt my wife, nor will I ever do such a thing;
9) I detest the fact that this affair involves and may even hurt so many others, but that is the nature of an affair; for my part I have decided to do no more than to tell the truth when I believe it to be appropriate or necessary;
10) I yearn for the day that my wife and I can actually begin to recover our relationship, and not only get it back to where it was, but also take all that I have learned so that we can make it unimaginarily better;
11) I believe in love, I believe in her, and my dedication and patience is beyond belief, as is my ability to keep myself together and still enjoy my life through all of this.

Alas, my heart has no white flag to fly.

I am certain that if you talk to either of them you will probably hear some or a lot of things that may put questions in your mind, but I do not feel it is appropriate to write a history that would expose and explain the entire history of everything that has been going on for the past few months. Regardless, feel free to respond to ask me ANYTHING (doesn't mean I will answer every question) or tell me ANYTHING you desire. All the same, if you never respond I completely understand.

I hope that you never have to go through what I am and have been going through, and if you have I am deeply sorry for the pain that you have experienced.

Yours,
C

Her plan is July? Tell her to move out in 2 weeks. See the WS don't like t/b told what t/d. They want t/d things their own way.

U though need to have things done in a manner safe for you and your family. Don't let the WS dictate your schedule. This will take guts t/d but most find out that once the WS gets told to move out, they fight it because moving out now becomes what the BS 'wants' the WS t/d and the WS just can't do what the BS 'wants'. Right or wrong, need or not isn't the driver here, it is the WS' selfish desires calling the shots....just don't let it.

U have t/d prepared for her to move out. Can you handle it emotionally, financially and physically? Don't move out for her.

JMHO,
L.

At first I was concerned that telling her to move out in two weeks (or sooner tha two months, since two weeks may leave me in a bad financial positions) and telling her to stop speaking to him in our house would constitute a demand or selfish demand. But after reading what Harley had to say about it as an LB I just have to be careful about how I say it: I need to be clear and direct, but with no implication or hint of a threat...although she will likely read one into it no matter what.

Whew, you MB folks are ruthless=)

I am soooo proud of your progress.

Btw, in my question t/b helpful....I have been called more than 'ruthless'. I have been called 'hitler' and a lot of other not so kind words.....still I have to recognize the source. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Yet it is often the words and yes even style that is given. Some take it well, others don't.

It makes my heart rejoice to see those like you who are willing to move forward despite what life throws at you. You are a survivor.

take care,
L.

u shouldn't let anyone humiliate u like this. No-one is worth loosing your selfrespect over. do you really want to be with a woman who treats you like this? Find your sense of self preservation. 'desperation' is not an attractive quality.Sorry if i sound harsh.

SW:

I really don't feel humiliated, and my selfrespect, confidence, etc. is at an all time high if anything. As for if I really want to be with a woman who treats me like this...its not HER, its who she is under these circumstances, and as much as I dislike it I understand it. In short, she is the perfect woman for me...just yesterday when I went to invite her to dinner with my family I came in and she was there asleep in her work clothes, just taking a nap...I couldn't get over how beautiful she is. =)

ORCHID:
Thank you! I'm quite proud of myself as well.

Anyhow, I sent the letter to the five friends and then called my mother-in-law. We spoke for an hour and a half and we agree just about completely about why her daughter is acting like she is, feeling like she is, etc. Unfortunately, I wasn't close to her side of the family until recently, but on a very positive note tonight was the first time that my mother-in-law, my mother in truth, and I told each other 'I love you.' It was a great feeling.

In short, it is clear to both of us that, 1) my W has no plans with OM as regards a real relationship; 2) that she feels guilty and does still care about me; 3) that she is holding back because, for at least one reason, she is afraid that she will get hurt again; 4) that she is very confused about what she wants or even feels; 5) she is still hurting, and surprised that she is, by my A, even though she tells me that she doesn't care and that it is in the past.

I was even surprised to hear that she told her mom about my job promotion, but then added 'why couldn't he have done that when I cared?' I had a tough time with jobs and money for a while, and that really bothered her. Obviously, she does care=)

I'm feeling good about everything, except a little confused about if I really should tell her to stop talking to him and a little bit less doubtful about if I should tell her to move out sooner. I'm just about certain about the latter, but her mom suggested that I don't even mention OM to her or how it hurts me for two reasons, 1) my W doesn't consider her and I as even in a relationship at the moment (the fact that we are still married really does mean little to nothing...but its best if I don't explain why), and 2) she feels justified in doing this because of how I betrayed and hurt her with my A.

For the most part all of my mom's advice was the same as MB, except for this, and besides that she does of course know her own daughter...that is why it gives me pause.

On the other hand here is my thinking: by telling her it 1) lets her know that I am assertive (which she sometimes complained I was not); 2) it puts more pressure on the A so that it can (hopefully) end even sooner.

I have decided that I will not go to Plan B as soon as I had planned, instead I will give it a month or two AFTER she has moved out. Reason: we broke up briefly twice while we were dating and it always followed the same pattern 1) intense distance; 2) getting a little closer; 3) having a recovery conversation and getting back together. So I want to still be involved for at least a little while after she can have that distance, which will be helpful for her to figure everything out.

I'm feeling a little confused, but am leaning towards telling her. I am also slightly uncertain if the letters I sent were a good idea, but it doesn't matter since it is already done. All I need to do is speak with her aunt. Only after that will I tell her to stop talking to him in the house and move out sooner, and I want to do it after so that if she turns to her aunt, mom, etc. I will have already talked to them so they know where I stand for certain.

It is just amazing how convinced she is that I am pushing to much, 'holding her hostage,' etc. Perhaps I really am and just can't see it--of course possible, it takes a third party to see more clearly...but no one else has seen all our interactions--but I believe it is the guilt, confusion, and fear that are really making her feel that way and she is just blaming me for those emotions.

So does it make a difference that I had an A in if I say these things or not? Or anything else I am doing?

Ok I am very familiar with 180 - it works well with plan B - or WS only. So as Orchid said tell her to move out in two weeks - bite the financial bullet - it is a low cost to save a marriage - then when you are separated - the 180 is the way to rebuild your confidence in yourself and a framework to follow to feel like "a person" again. A lot of it doesn't apply - as you will not see her - the things it says to do or not do, when you do see her are moot. You can do them when she acts like the WS before she moves out though.

I have thought of a way for you to speak to Dr. Bill at no cost - if you wish to know please use my email at the bottom of this page.

He is direct and if you think Orchid is tough - he is more so - and yet what he says, makes soooo much sense and fills you with confidence - he understand just where you are within a few moments.

Edited to add - you are well within your rights to ask her not to talk to him in the home you share - If I were a room mate I would be within my rights as a friend to ask you not to act in a way I found disrespectful to me. She is your WIFE like it or not and is sharing your home - stop calling it a house - that helps her to detach from it - call it our home. So just tell her "It is very disrespectful toward me for you to talk to Ben in our home. You can talk to him all you wish when you have moved out in two weeks" Good way to put it to her - no?

I wish to be a fly on the wall when you quietly and calmly say that sentence. Now if she fusses say " I am sorry, perhaps I didn't make myself clear" and then repeat exactly the same sentence over again. Repeat as often as necessary for maximum effect.

Good luck - go get her D.

Linda

I just have to share this little bit:

I love this woman so much...all I want to do right now is hold her.

But, I've screwed up a lot, and now I have to face the consequences. It really is a long hard road out of ******.

In the end though, I know it will be worth it.

I just told her....

She came into the kitchen while I was watching a film and shortly after she walked out I decided that was the time, stopped the movie, and walked after her. I caught her as she was going back into OUR room and said, "It is very disrespectful to me for you to continue to talk to him (I noticed at this point that she was on the phone with him) in our house...." at that point she told him to hold on, had a stupid grin on her face, closed the door and locked it. I continued, at first in a normal tone and then realizing she wouldn't hear me so I had to shout (which I deeply regret...but what else should I have done?), "Besides, you can talk to him as much as you move out in JUNE." I emphazied the month so she knew I wasn't just making a mistake, and although I meant 'end of June' its alright. Her response was, "Don't worry, I will."

I went back to the movie and as I did I heard the front door open and then...slam. It obviously upset her, but...

Just tell me I didn't make a massive mistake...tell me it was the best thing...tell me that even if it was a mistake it is just water under the bridge...just shoot me.

I cannot get over how much I love who she REALLY is, and how beautiful she is. Despite my doubts, I believe we will be back together and happier than ever before.

I don't know what to do right now...I guess I'll have a drink and finish the movie.

You did OK - none of us are text books. The sooner the A is in the bold light of the day - the sooner it will die. So keep plan Aing her until she leaves. Get the bedroom door changed so you can unlock it from the outside - do not give her a room to hide her affair in.

Try not to shout again - just get it out when she is not on the phone and is not going anywhere. Start to write your plan B letter, it may take some time and once it is perfect you can begin to consider when you will send it.

But for now get it written - the sooner she has to be in NC with you the sooner the affair will have to carry the brunt of her EN's and the sooner she will want to talk and sort things out.

So if you delay the Plan B you delay the rebuilding of your marriage. - the dance you have recognised in previous separations has led to this sitch - so why repeat it?

Linda

Well, the lock is a very simple one and I could have unlocked it with my thumbnail if I had thought of it. As for shouting, it is very rare for me to shout, ever, so no worries about that one.

As for dealing with the A, should I continue to let her know that her talking to him hurts me, and when I do that would it best be done when she ISN'T talking to him?

I'll get the Plan B letter started=)

Chris

So I'm going to start working on the Plan B letter. Here is my plan for after she has moved out: don't call her for about a week, and then for the first month or so I will call her once or twice a week to see if she would like to do something, I will go to parties/places/etc. where she is, and all the rest. Then the letter and no contact...too bad that will mean I will have to miss the majority of family (her side) functions, which occur quite regularly. Its okay though, I can still visit them at other times, I know my little brother and sister will miss seeing me around. What do I tell an 8 and 10 year old when they ask why I'm not around as much and why I'm never with their sister?

I've been contemplating writing my W another letter to tell her more of how much I love her, what I have learned, etc. and maybe making mention of the affair, maybe not. Any thoughts?

Also, I've finally written the NC letter to my FOW. I waited so long since I told my W that I was going to establish NC with her, and she responded that it was stupid of me to do that for her when she didn't care anymore. Also, my W does have occasional contact with the FOW...partially just cause that is the sort of person my W is, but also--I believe--a way to prove to herself that she doesn't care. Anyhow, I wanted to wait until my W would be willing to review my NC letter and give it her approval...that seems like it will take too long. Since FOW is in contact with my W...should I expose to her as well? She knows some of what is going on already.

I was thinking about it and I think I've figured out why she became so distant...about three weeks ago now.

I would notice her getting closer and more open with me, and sometimes I could SEE her catch her self and then pull back. Like when we would be together with friends...her leg would begin to touch mine, then all of a sudden pull back...repeat, repeat, repeat. Its guilt, doubt, confusion...I love her to death, but right now I wish her the deepest and most painful of guilt, doubt, and confusion.

I see no reason to believe that we will not be together for the rest of our lives. We fit together too well... If only magic was possible and I could fix this in an hour.

Anyhow, it was about three weeks ago that she was wearing her wedding ring (despite her claim that the marriage meant nothing), being very open and very friendly, and even stood so close to me that we were touching even though there was NO ONE else around...then the next day she pulled back a little bit, the next day more, the next day more...then a week after the day she was more open than she had been in months she told me how much of a pain in the a... I am, etc. It was very irrational. I belive it was nothing more than she was scared of how close she had allowed herself to get to me.

My mind keeps going back over the past three years and, luckily, I focus on the (mainly) positive things. But everything reminds me of her. Just today I just about cried when I remembered how I would call her 'Paz' ('fish' in Spanish) because of how she would sometimes put her arms around me and just bounce, thus shaking me, with a big ol' smile on her face. Or how we would 'fight' with her taking hits at me and me just picking her up and throwing her on the couch or bed or whatever...sometimes one of us got hurt, but it just made it more amusing since it was never anything serious=)

Why does it take losing someone to realize how much you really needed and cared for them?

I take some consolation in the fact that I have helped a very good friend in strengthening his relationship with the woman of his world. He is younger and always looked up to me, even though in the past I gave him a lot of bad advice...thankfully, he has been bright enough to learn from my mistakes.

I guess that is the meaning of life... to f*** up royally and learn from it all. College can teach a lot, but the 'school of hard knocks' teaches so much more, and so much better.

At work I was thinking and realized that it has been just about six months since my A peaked. So, that set me to thinking about how long it has been for everything...

9 Months: we moved into the new house; W and OM kissed and began long-distance EA.

6 M: W went to visit OM for first time; both of our As became PAs.

4 M: OM came to Vegas; my A let out its last breath and my fog cleared; W was last close/intimate; W claimed she 'no longer needed me; W's A became more serious and also a rebound.

3 M: Since I began to use MB principles...although not all that well=) Live and learn.

2 M: Since she returned from second visit to OM and I began to better implement MB principles (still lacked the stick of Plan A though!)

1 M: Since W was last friendly, wanted to do things together, was wearing her ring, etc.

I feel better realizing how short of a time it has really been. It feels like forever and not 4 months since I awoke from my fog.

I keep thinking that, 'What my wife is doing is different...I have to do something different than what is suggested here.' But I know that isn't the case.

I was thinking...is it possible that she became really distant a month ago after getting so close because by getting close it allowed the pain that my A caused to return?

I know I need to make it very hard and very uncomfortable for her to continue talking to the OM...but it just isn't in me. Every part of me tells me not to upset her in anyway.

Oh, a good friend of my W and I just came back into town for a few days. I am going to expose to him--we've always been there for each other--and I want to believe that if anyone can get through to her right now, its him...he just has that 'way.' But, what do you guys think? Can ANYONE get through to her right now?