I know its not just me feeling like this, but, I’m freaking out! Please help!

My full story was posted on Plan A/Plan B, but I haven’t gotten any responses.

Simply, I am a FWH (ended early January), and now dealing with a WW. Her and the OM met in August 05, but really became serious in early January (right as I had pulled completely out of the fog) and continues to reject any interest in our marriage or saving it.

The OM lives across the country and they have only seen each other during three visits, a month total. Now he is planning to move to our city, but WW won’t tell me much so I don’t know if it is for certain.

Things were going really well and then the last two weeks have been a horrible setback, worse than ever. Although now she will get closer and then distant quicker. It used to take at least a day between moods; now this I see it jump back three or four times in one day.

Anyhow today she threw out a dried flower I had given her, and was wearing the …. T-shirt that OM gave her. Now I’m worried that this setback is going to be bigger; or maybe he is moving here soon…I don’t know.

Also, I feel pretty confident that if OM does move here it may very well prove a faster end to the affair since there is no way she could really be attracted to a man like this—he is, ironically, practically identical to a roommate that we just had to kick out and still can’t get rent from. But I don’t want him in this city and around my friends. So I’m kind of torn, but I also figure I will just try and end it before he moves here but be prepared for him moving here.

But how much of the stick should I use? Should I tell her how the shirt hurts me? Should I do anything when I know she is on the phone with him, even though she is speaking to him in ‘private’ so I don’t see and get upset? Should I expose now to everyone even if it will push this setback much further, maybe into a Plan B!?

Help, the only outcome I’m not afraid of is her telling me she wants to fix things between us!

from the other board

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I have been reading through MB for a little while, although only recently the forums...wish I began earlier!
In a lot of ways my situation in unique, but in many others it is exactly what I have been reading on here, so I suppose it would be best for me to explain first. I'll try and be brief, but I doubt I'll succeed!
First off, some background: my wife and I have been married for two and a half years and met three and a half. We married when she was 18 and I 20, plus she was the first person I ever had a real relationship with. Further, although we were together we got married for legal reasons (I'll leave it at that), at least that is what we claimed. In truth we both knew it meant more, in fact the night after we got married we were talking and both agreed that we really meant the vows as we repeated them.
Before I get to the actual situation, one more element must be related: being young and foolish I had long decided that I didn't care for mandatory monogamy--despite this we were both monogamous until what I am about to relate. In time she came to agree but was never comfortable with the idea of me being with another woman, I on the other hand convinced myself that I was comfortable with it and wouldn't even be jealous. I've realized my idiocy with that, and so many mistakes I have made in our marriage and have done a good job of rectifying them.
Then in August of 2005 both of us were at a retreat together and another man--who I did know--made a move and they kissed. She told me about it very shortly after. I told her I was completely okay with it, etc. etc. and really believed it. Since he lived across the country they didn't see each other and instead kept in contact over the phone. In retrospect I now recognize that at least a part of the reason why she even responded to his advances was to make me jealous, i.e. show her that I did love her.
Even when she would ask me for privacy while talking to him I 'didn't mind.' Of course, even though this was all 'open' he feared talking to me and without me knowing anything about it (its so true: affairs=lies, or at least hiding) he felt he was falling in love with her. So far as I know she never developed feelings like that for him, but I know she enjoyed the conversation and admiration.
Eventually she made plans to visit him during the last week of November. Around the same time, early November, I developed an interest in another woman and we began to talk more and more. Excusing the one kiss my wife and the OM shared, both of us took our affairs beyond conversation the week she was out of town.
I entered the fog, was convinced I didn't love my wife, etc. etc. etc. We continued to live together and after a week or two began to get close again. Also, my wife--without knowing it, and at the time still not wanting to continue the relationship with me--effectively implemented Plan A. It resulted in my OW ending it with me because of the intense guilt.
Her OM then decided to come and visit my wife and stay at our house--with my permission...especially at this point since I was still in the fog over the OW--in mid-January. If I would have woken up sooner I know that we could have begun to recover our relationship, but instead I came to realize my love for my wife, again, when the OM was here. I really think it was less the jealousy--although that helped--and more the fact that I had completely gotten over the OW. The night before the OM left we spoke, he told me that he thought he was 'falling in love' with my wife.
The day after he left I went to talk to my wife--who was in a very distant and cold mood after he left--and told her what I had realized, how much I loved her, and how I wanted to fix everything. She said she was over me, didn't need me anymore, etc. Her OM went from being an affair to a rebound all in one. Not to mention, I had LBed quite a bit that week.
Since then we have gotten closer, then she'll get distant, back and forth. At first I just made an [censored] out of myself, then I found MB and got a copy of 'Surviving.' I was trying to implement Plan A--not as well as I could have--and then she left for two weeks to be with him in mid-March. Since she has come back I have done an awesome job at Plan A...except only a week ago did I find out that there is supposed to be a stick involved.
To this point she still talks about him like a boyfriend and not a serious lover, despite him being obsessed with her...so much so that he is now planning on moving to our city to be closer to her. He is now claiming--last she told me--that she isn't the 'only' reason he is moving her, but that is all BS. Also, my brother-in-law has even informed me that my wife told him that her OM's moving here is all him with no encouragement from her. She is also quite adament about not living with him.
My big dillemma is about how exactly to use the stick. When I wasn't using it, not mentioning the affair, not saying how it hurt, etc. things seemed to be developing very well. She would even wear her ring on occasion, and various other signs. Until one week where she just got very distant and began to spend up to two or more hours on the phone with him a day! It used to be maybe thirty minutes. Then last Friday when I got home from work (I get home shortly before she leaves) the ****** hit the fan. She was really upset at me over me being a pain...why am I a pain? Because I let her know that a friend and I are going out; because I keep wearing my wedding ring. Then she opens a bit more, she is afraid I'll be a big pain when her OM moves here. I told her he will not come to or near the house and that beyond that I will simply be honest about what is going on. She then said she wanted a divorce, that she would move out, etc. I had learned about the stick of Plan A shortly before this, but hadn't really used it. I did tell her how much her talking to him hurts me and she said if she cared she would do something about it, etc. I wasn't too upset after this since I had expected it and it was all very irrational.
She barely talked to me the whole weekend until Sunday when she told me I needed to help her with groceries and we had some pleasant small talk and she asked me to get some information for her, I did, and when I was going to tell her I saw she was on the phone with him hiding around the house...I went, began to tell her, she told him to hold on and then asked if I could wait till she was done. I told her that he could wait five seconds, and that was that. Then later on she was on the phone again and I simply walked by telling her that it hurts me. She of course closed up again.
I noticed that she would stay in her room (actually our room, but I've been sleeping on my comy sofa in my office for a while now) with the doors closed, etc. to avoid me telling her how I feel. She at one point told me she feels like I am holding her hostage. From what I can tell she is feeling very guilty, especially since I leave her be, don't talk to her, etc. unless she wants to talk to me.
She has been a tad bit more open the past few days--light conversation, nothing like how it was the Friday before she blew up. And she is clearly not planning on moving out since she has insisted we take care of the bug problem, put her winter coats in the attic, etc.
Also, I am quite confident that if he moves here it will end the affair even faster than if he doesn't, but all the same I really want to end it before he has a chance to move here, which could be in the next two or three months.
Should I continue to make her feel guilty by letting her know how I feel? And thus make it difficult to speak with him? Should I expose to her family?
I've also been thinking about calling or writing the OM. I read the little piece on the forum about how that is usually a bad idea, but I really don't care to hear a word he has to say, and I know he won't listen anyhow. But I do know that she has not told him a lot of things and that he is a very jealous person...so I could set him off and cause striff in their affair by simply telling him about things like how she has been wearing her wedding ring.
On one hand I want to recall the stick completely and hope she opens up again since it is so nice when she does...on the other hand I want to go out and obliterate the affair even if it means she hates me for a few weeks or whatever, since I know it will pass.
Help! I feel like every day that passes is a huge loss of time. Thanks in advance.

       

I've calmed down a bit, even though last night didn't go to well. She is claiming that she is planning on moving out once the lease is up in August...despite the fact that just before that we had been discussing what we need to do around the house, etc.

Anyhow, I think I've decided on the plan. Simply do the 180 that I have read about on here. Letting her know how she hurts me, doing some more exposing, and/or calling OM (just to set him off and allow him to reveal who he really is to her), would probably end the affair, but at what cost? Especially when she has already dropped hints of tiring of him. If he does move here myself and a few others (her brother included) agree that he will simply end the affair even faster.

Any thoughts on this? Anything else I should or shouldn't do?

Better if she ends it than the OM dropping her. Ws' tend to pine after the OPs if they are dumped.

Where r u with your plan A? Almost ready for plan B?

Don't let her move or do what is convenient. Best to let her move out when u r ready.

L.

You two make any babies yet?

If not, I suggest you bail out of this marriage and start over with other partners - after growing up some more.

ORCHID:
Hopefully she does drop him...it seems that it is developing in that direction, or maybe even a mutual end, but I'm not willing to really put my money on anything for certain=)

For my Plan A I've been really sketchy about setting a date, but when our lease ends in August seems like a good time. But even that I'm not sure about, I'd like to keep a hold of this house.

As for my Plan A I have been trying to implement it in some form or another since maybe mid-Feb, but have revised it a lot as I understand it and her more and more. So the best I've done has been since late-March.

But how would I stop her from moving out? If I even asked her not to or tried to stop her then she would almost certainly move out sooner. On the whole though, I feel I could deal with it right now if she moved out...money would be an issue, but that can be resolved.

And saying, "Don't let her do what is convenient" again puts questions as to my Plan A. Is it the carrot and the stick? How much stick? There doesn't seem to be all that much stick in making a 180?

I have told her it hurts when I see her on the phone with him--only twice--and she has since avoided me like the plague when talking to him. I told her that when she wore his shirt it hurt...she seems to have made it disapear. But all the same it really pushes her away; so I'm willing to do these types of things, but don't know how much and how far to go with it.

WAT:
No children, but I'm not bailing. I was single for so long before her not because I was akward with women (although I was), but because no woman ever gave me enough reason to reach through and against my akwardness. Not even talking about love here, just basic personality, and no one has ever to this day caught my interest like she has--and her and I were not love at first sight, it took me maybe three months, even if that isn't long.

Even now I get weak sometimes and begin to let my eye wander, but whenever I really think about it I know that NONE of the other women I know or have met would work out with me.

There may not be a 'one' in the world, but she is a massive rarity. Consequently, I would rather fight for her to the bitter end and never fly the white flag...even if it means waiting five years until I move on, its time well spent. Spend five years on something I know can work, even if it doesn't, or give up immediately and search for another ten, twenty, until I find another, and always wonder?

Besides, as far as I am concerned I am simply suffereing the consequences of my own actions, so best to fess up to it. This doesn't mean I blame myself or let her blame me; I simply accept responsibility for what I have done.

It is easy to love her even with how she is acting now because I know her better than anyone else, and in many ways better than herself (and vice versa)...this woman who is angry at me, irrational, and having an affair is not my wife, I know that is not her. I see her peep out on occasion though, and that helps.

---Alas, this heart has no white flag to fly.---

I have been doing the complete 180 for a while, but two questions.

1) When I am following this strategy do I remain distant even when she opens up?

2) While doing this how aggressively should I deal with the affair? I know that I could cause much conflict or even end it.

Any thoughts or input would be of great help!

You should WANT the WS to move out. It's your W that you want to stay.

L.

ORCHID:

Alright alright, stop speaking in parables=)

She has been two people though, thats for sure. Just yesterday I was showing my brother(in-law) my new uniform (I just got promoted to driver for UPS--hurrah for me!) and she was doing all she could to NOT look in my direction. That was the WS. Then less than an hour later my W popped out of no where and we talked pleasantly, even if only for a few moments.

I suppose one advantage I REALLY have in this is that it would be VERY HARD for her to move out at all, let alone before August. Plus even when I 'upset' her by telling her how she hurts me...she opens up pretty quick again (even if only minimally) and seems to remove the source of pain (except the affair...but hey, take what you can get). AND I know that if she moved out she would miss me, even if it took a while, and add to that, if the OM moves to Vegas and she really tries it with him...everyone knows it will fail miserably and very fast.

But still...I'm scared...then again, who didn't guess that? Even though I KNOW WS and W are different, they do inhabit the same body and go the same places together! Even though I know that she has been thinking about us; that we WILL be back together....

I mean, should I knock on OUR door (I've been sleeping on my couch for a while now) when I overhear her talking to him? I know she will accuse me of spying (she wouldn't be all wrong, even though she doesn't know exactly what I've been up to), making her feel like a hostage, etc. Or should I only do such things when it is in my face, in public, etc.?

You know what really helped me before? A good friend of mine (who has just recently fallen in love...you better believe I have warned him of how easy it is to get into this situation!) came by and we spoke for a good four or five hours. At first I vented...but the last two or maybe three hours I couldn't stop talking about how much I love her, the awesome memories, how she had me from the freaking hour she met met, etc. etc. etc. That was really encouraging and empowering...I think I'll make it happen again=D

Perhaps I could just post it all here...but I feel that if my posts are too long I don't get any responses =(

SAW,

First, I'm sorry that you're here.

I'm not sure where to start.

As you know, you and your WW have each brought a load of chaos into your very young marriage. When her A ends, both of you will have many issues through which to work to be able to have a happy marriage.

[Quickly, let me ask that you drop the "young and foolish" talk about your A. You're an adult. You made a very big mistake. (I'm troubled by the whole open marriage thing.) Make sure that you're able to take responsibility for it and look honestly at the reasons why it happened. ]

I was initially going to come on here and rant about how I don't feel that young marriages with no kids aren't inherantly less valuable than other marriages. I'll save that for another day.

Is there a particular reason why you're 180ing? I think that if you're very serious about saving and working on your marriage, you should consider calling for professional help from one of the MB folks. (I've talked to Steve, but have also heard great things about Jennifer.) It's a little pricey, but I think that you need a plan about how you should proceed. I think that whatever happens, you should set a course of action and do your best to stick to it.

It's good that you were able to talk to your friend about things. Do you have any support from your family concerning your situation?

Don't contact the OM. Is he married? If so, his W should be near the top of your exposure list. You should expose the affair; that's part of Plan A. Your exposure targets should include your family, her parents, OM's wife (if applicable), your priest/pastor/rabbi/etc. (if applicable). I'd say that you should discuss any plans for exposure on this board before taking action.

Take care of yourself. You might also want to consider seeing a counselor for yourself.

Anyway, good luck and congrats on your promotion.

NCN,

"Young and foolish" thing has been dropped=)

Pricey is the exact problem with getting professional help, but I will look into it.

180ing seems to be the best option since she opens up more and more over time when I act like that. And she may not express love, but she certainly acts closer than even a best friend (usually) should. I mean, what I am really doing is not following her around, not always asking her to do things, etc. but doing things with her when she is open, talking, and the like.

I do have family support, from both hers and mine.

Most people do already know about the affair to some extent, and most just stay out of the fray and avoid the topic. The two people who I believe would be very strategic to expose to, or more aptly, talk to about this in depth, would be her mom and her aunt since she is very close to both of them, and they do think fondly of me as well. Although I think both know of the OM, I don't know how they feel about it, OR if they know I am still actively invested in the marriage.

I could do the same with OM's friends since I know them as well, but he is not married. A friend of mine who knows him and works with him talked to him (she hasn't told me everything just yet), and said he seemed to be very indecisive about moving, so it just confirms my hope/belief that him moving here will ultimately fall through.

More than anything I want to talk with my W's mom and aunt, preferably some time this week, let them know what all happened and that I am set on saving the marriage.

Should I continue pointing out how she/the affair hurts me? It seems to be effective since she only talks to him behind closed doors and has stopped wearing his shirt.

I am just afraid of going too far too fast.

I've been taking very good care of myself, eating regularly, getting out, keeping active, etc.

Thanks again.

The worst thing you can do is take your time exposing the affair. Let her mom and aunt know that you love your wife and desire to save your marriage - and do it soon.

I know that if I am going to really up my strategy, I can’t do things in stages, otherwise it isn’t as effective…it needs to be all at once, a shock treatment of sorts, at least when it begins. Anyhow, how’s this for a Plan A in my situation?

What I HAVE been doing:
1) Fulfilling all of her ENs that she will allow.
2) Giving her space when she wants space; and time when she wants it.
3) Eliminated all LBs, really only a few annoying habits.
4) Letting her know that she is hurting me whenever she spoke to him in front of me.
5) Exposed to a few close friends, my family, her brother, etc. Her brother tells each of us what the other has said, even when it is ‘secret.’ He means well=)

What I WILL do:
1) Expose—or talk in more depth—with her mom and aunt. That also means the whole family will know, and quick.
2) Expose to OM’s friends (the one’s who know me) and explain—briefly but clearly—its an affair, we are still married and living together, that I messed up and had an A that is now dead and gone, and that I am dedicated to the marriage.
3) Expose to our roommate so that he knows more of ‘my side’ as well.
4) Tell her, maybe once or twice a week, that even if she hides or isn’t anywhere near me when she talks to him, I know she is still talking to him, and that it hurts whether or not I know when, where, etc.
5) See if a friend who knows OM could talk with him about it.

Things I WON’T do, but have thought about:
1) Give W a weekly reminder that I love her and want to be more affectionate. Nothing elaborate, though. Why not? It seems best to only upset her as regards the affair.
2) Cry in front of her occasionally. Why not? She’s more attracted to strength and confidence.
3) Call or write OM to tell him to cut contact with her, and to mention something like how she has worn her wedding ring just to toss him in a whirl. Why not? Because so many have suggested not to, but I still like this idea…
4) Posting a short exposure on her MySpace, and on all photos that she has of him on her page. Why not? Seems to be very disrespectful.

...scary...!

ARGH! ...I just have to vent for a second...

We were watching a movie when OM called. She asked him if she could call him back and then said, "I love you too." Its more rage than sadness...for the moment.

I didn't say anything, didn't do anything, just continued peacefully watching the movie. I almost expressed how painful that was--calmly--but decided to hold off until I am certain of the Plan so I can implement it all at once. Perhaps I should have expressed it.

I have no words to express this, but I'm okay.

There are many things that I believe in, one of them is love, true love.

She may have said that she loves the OM, she probably even believes it; but I know her to well. I know about her ex-boyfriends, crushes, etc. and he is NOT a man that she can TRUELY love.

True love leads to marriage, whether made legal or not. 'Love' is something that anyone can feel for anyone else given the right circumstances...time is what proves whether it is true or momentary. Her and I fit too well; her and OM don't fit at all. He is too weak, even if she doesn't see it.

As I was thinking about this something else occurred to me: you know it is over, you know that the love of your life has moved on and has little chance of coming back WHEN they are OUT of the fog and yet still in love with the OP. The fog is not only the 'love is blind' it is a defense against the love, the guilt, for their spouse.

If it was really over, if I really had no chance, then she would be able to calmly say so to me without getting upset and while understanding how I feel and where I am. She is very far from that. The illusion is very powerful for her, and a great part of it has to do with the relationship being very heavily telephone/conversation based...you can never TRUELY know someone simply over the phone, you need interactions, body language, to see how they interact with others, what they do, how they do it, how they carry themselves, and so much more.

I think I have decided...July 15th will be D-Day. It is the day rent is due and exactly one month before our lease is up. I will, of course, pay my part of the rent up until the lease is up. I will also mention in the letter that I wish to be contacted--by our roommate, not her--come the time for resigning the lease since I would like to retain the house even if she doesn't. If she does, I'll let her reknew and figure things out; if she doesn't, I'll take it but without her until she is ready to come back.

This anger is helpful in overcoming any fears.

I am not speaking in parables. The adult female in your home is NOT your W. Why would a true W ask her H if she can speak to the OM and tell the OM ILU? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Now r u willing to work with a plan that will stop you from freaking out and put the WS out of your home so you can get your sanity back?

L.

Yes.

Any changes you would suggest to the plan I posted?

Come either Sat or Sun I believe I will put it into action...depends on the situation, if I work, etc. since I would like to perform all the 'one-time' parts of it on a single day.

...thank youjavascript:void(0)
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Chomp on these thoughts for a while.

1. Don't have to tell all your support group everything. Just enough so they c/b good supporters. RE: Not all can handle all. Be cautious.

2. Plan A your W and plan B the WS.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

ORCHID:

Hmm... what that leads me to think is that I should invite her to do things with me, even if she gets upset, and regardless of her answer do them and have a good time. Other than that I wouldn't make any other changes to the plan.

My mind keeps running around July 15th as D-Day. I suppose it will ultimately depend on what develops between now and then. I'll go with this: if she begins to wear the ring again, then I will extend the date for D-Day...maybe one month from the last day she has worn the ring.

Also, would you suggest going with Plan A for as long as I am emotionally able to do so? Or is the D-Date, in addition to helping retain sanity, also a recognition that Plan A isn't doing the job?

There u go, thinking in too much detail again. Read my post:

Plan A your Wife and plan B the WS.

If she acts like your W, treat her nicely. If the WS rears their head at any time, switch to plan B IMMEDIATELY. Even if it means, leaving a movie, restaurant, event, etc. Even if she screams about 'how embaressing u r making her or how much of a deal u r making it.' If she acts like a WS, end of plan A right there on the spot. Don't hang around wondering if your W will show up. If your W does show up, she'll all you.

L.