It has been sent.

But I have to wake up in 5 hours...sigh...so I am off to bed. Thank you again, and wish me luck! I am personally feeling positive--even if nervous--about everything.

What I meant about MB is just letting her know that you're participating in a program - geez, sounds like a cult - where people are snatching their marriages fromm the jaws of divorce every day. That's all. Can't expect her to understand or embrace MB while she's in the fog.

Updates look good! There's a poster on MB - LovingAnyway - that has taught me to trace my thoughts, feelings, actions, desires, fears - back to my truth. So that I'm operating from truth when ever I write, speak or act. I used to calculate and manipulate to get desired reations. From everybody, not just WW. Myself included.

LA's shown me that knowing my truth is like clean living. And sharing my truth with WW is part of being a good partner. Trace back your feeling, thoughts, etc and share them with WW. Without expection of ANY result. Give not to get but to live. That make sense? It was huge for me. Not saying you're doing what I did re: manipulation but I believe everyone can benefit from "give to live".

Share often. A little at a time. Don't make a big production out of it. To borrow from LA - "I feel like I've grown so much over the last XX months. Perhaps I can share with you how some time. Is it going to rain?"

Keep sharing, own your stuff - no matter how small - and it will be impossible for her to avoid seeing the change in you.

Any of this making sense? I know what I'm talking about but not sure if it's coming through in the words.

good luck!

Good ... I think you have been given good advice - I wish you had emailed me, I would have given you more input - but no mind. I have been out of town and only had time to check email - no time to read forums - so I looked for an email from you every day - and was shocked to see how many p[osts I had missed. Sorry ....

Linda

MDC:

Hmm...she doesn't know I'm involved in this forum, perhaps it would be good to let her know, at least in my next letter. I have learned that it is best for me to stick to what I believe and feel and not call in outside authorities (Harley, MB, anything) since she doesn't care to her me 'quote' others, but instead wants to know what I think.

She has seen the changes in me, but of course many of them she can't experience/see until she is open to saving our marriage. So those I do need to express to her. Right now I don't talk to her unless she talks to me, mostly. Today was different since she asked me to help her with her car, and as we were driving together I asked about her day.

Silverpool:

For some reason I didn't even think to e-mail you; basically because I didn't take your sharing of your e-mail address for that specific reason as an invitation to private discussion=) Now I know; thanks.

Even though the letter has already been sent it may be helpful for the future, so what advice WOULD you have given?

I feel things are really looking up; and I still get the impression that the A is withering away, even if slowly.

Thursday she went on the attack, then Friday and on she has been opening up, very slowly, but very surely. Letting me know more about what she is doing and going (hasn't done this in a month and would get angry if I would ask); asking me to do more things for her; etc.

Today I asked while in the car--as I mentioned above--how her day was besides her car breaking down. She just said, "Bad." There was a long pause and she finally began to explain--after she did the reason for the pause was obvious: "Apartments are too expensive and my brother can't make up his mind."

Originally she had planned to live on her own, and now it seems she has asked her brother if he wanted to move in with her, and he is very indicisive (I asked him also about moving into the house). So this is good...she is seeing that she needs someone reliable to live with to make ends meet.

A question though: how helpful or not should I be with her plans on moving out? Should I, for example, help her look for an affordable apartment? If for some reason she would ask me to sign the lease and her pay the rent (since I NOW--finally!--make more), should I agree? Mind you, I don't plan to initiate Plan B until either a month (minimum) after she has moved out, or end of September. Sorry, I still haven't set a date to end Plan A....I'm just waiting to see how much I can take since I will know when I need to run to Plan B.

Oh! I almost forgot. She recieved and opened the letter I e-mailed (I normally would have written it, but since I was copying an e-mail I went this route), but has not said a word about it. I'm not sure if I should take this as good, bad, or neutral...but I'm also not too concerned. I said what I needed to say, the rest is on her.

I have changed it to how I would write and explained why I have changed things or told you to remove things. Print it out and compare it with your original.

SP




Cut the next sentence out - it is none of her business how things are now and it is disrespectful to give the OW any information about your M, good or bad. Looks like you are seeking sympathy from her.



I am amazed thst you would

A, tell OW how your marriage is going and seek sympathy and

B, arrange to still associate in the same circles as her and pretend that not talking to her makes that OK.

I cannot imagine how upset that makes your wife - like rubbing salt in the wound and doubly now as she has just heard the truth and the wound is reopened.

Thank you SP.... I don't know why I didn't think to post the NC letter for advice first! Well, that letter has already been sent, and I really don't care to communicate with OW in anyway ever again, even to send a revised NC letter; unless everyone thinks that is a good idea? I would be hesitant to send a second also because I know it will just stir up more nonsense from her and her lover; not that it matters too much, especially since it seems everyone has forgot about (or didn't notice) the first response, but I would like to avoid it.

Any suggestions on what I wrote to my WW as a preface to the copy of the NC letter?

Oh, and with her trying to move out, how helpful should I be? Assuming she even asks; and what attitude should I take? I assume that since she isn't moving in with OM, that I should be fully supportive; it really seems that most anything that isn't the A I should act that way towards.

Another dillema. There is another retreat coming up in mid/late July, and OM will be attending. My WW told me that she is going, doesn't know or care if I am, but that her and OM would be lodging together. Now the folks putting this all together have been trying to get a hold of me to see if I am going to go, etc. etc.

I have decided NOT to go UNLESS the A ends between now and then, and so I'm going to tell the organizers this...but should I expose to them? Tell them exactly why I'm not going? My WW, OM, and I know these folks on a personal and friendly level. I can't be certain, but I do expect that if I told them they wouldn't keep completely quiet, and at the same time I don't think they would have much influence over my WW or OM...but then again, if practically everyone at the retreat knows about the A, I would imagine that it would make things VERY uncomfortable, EVEN if no one actually verbalized anything

SW - do not help her move out. You're helping her destroy the M if you do. Do you want to her to move out? How long have you been in plan A again? - this is why sig lines are nice.

I'm confused as to exactly what your plan is here... A or B.

SAW, do NOT assist WW in moving out in any way, shape, form, or fashion. You would be enabling her adultery. Similarly, you do not assist her financially at all. If she wants to do this, she has to do it on her own.

Second, of course you tell the organizers of this retreat your wife is committing adultery with this OM. Why would you hesitate? Actually, if you have a mailing list of all the participants, tell them too! Let the light of day shine on this obscenity so everyone can see it for what it is.

I can't get a handle on what you've done and not done in your recovery plan. Have you exposed to everyone who has potential to put some kind of pressure on this adultery?

I have replied to your email and will not repeat it here as the responses you have, say exactly the same as I. The idea about the list of participants is wonderful - if you can't get a list you should go and tell them all when you do the "intro" thing. Courage brother - Christ is by your side with His arm around your shoulder.

Linda

First some details in her moving out. By not helping her move out at all, would I agree to help her get her car started or towed from an apartment complex that she was looking at? Do I tell her that it hurts that she wants to move out?

Second...I will certainly tell the organizers, but as for telling EVERYONE (which I could do with ease), I will have to really think about. I can't tell if you guys are right on the makr, or just nuts! =)

SP, what "intro" thing are you referring to?

MDC and LH, I am in Plan A, and I have exposed to WW's mother (we agree on most everything--also, if her mom knows, the whole family knows), and five others by e-mail who I could think of that could have the biggest amount of influence over WW or OM...I think it did have some effect. Plus my family, all close friends we see regularly, her brother, cousin.

SW - do not aid her in ANY way. At all. You do not want her to go. Share that with her. "I believe that we can have a beautiful marriage. I am committed to rebuilding. Your moving out prevents reconstruction. I will participate only in activities that are GOOD for our marriage." Something like that. Make the words your own.

OK to tell her it hurts that she wants to move out but it's better - much better - to tell her WHY it hurts. Do you know why SW??

If she's getting her car towed BACK HOME then that's fine.

SW - ask yourself. What is your boundry?? This is going to be hard for you but you must stand firm. If you aid her in leaving then YOU are an accomplice to the destruciton of your M. Let your WW have ALL of that. It belongs to her. SHE wants to go.

It's not about being difficult or petty. It isn't. It's about knowing and respecting your truth. Can you see that?? Or does it feel like you're being mean by not helping? It's important that you know this.

Plan A. OK. DO NOT HELP YOUR WIFE LEAVE.

PS - create a sigline similar to mine so we can quickly refer to dates, kids, etc.

Well exposing is part of plan B. However it is difficult to just let her go to the retreat and him be there. If you are on the verge of plan B, then do not help her in any way to move out, she has to do it alone and after she gets your plan B letter. For now decide if you are still plan A or if you have moved to plan B without the letter. It is better to now exactly where you are. the NC letter to the EOW is part of plan A - being and showing her the perfect husband, but letting her know what hurts and is unacceptable in a moderated way.

I know Orchid told you to plan A her when she acts like your wife and plan B her when she acts like the WS - but you cannot do that indefinitely.

Plan B is separation, no contact with her/WW at all, no help to her and expose to everyone in the universe in spades. This usually kills the A. Like sunlight on a vampire. It turns to dust.

So decide on where you are and we will help you get where you should be in that plan and also help you to prepare and cope with the next stages.

The intro is when y'all sit at the retreat and say who you are etc. Where ever I was in my plans I would expose to all at the retreat.

SP

Perfect sense about only doing things that are good for the marriage. I thought about this and worried that it would contradict my telling her to move out sooner (orchid's advice), but I doubt she will ask, and I think I could handle it fine.

Why it hurts, sure: because it means she is turning her back on our marriage, on me, and my love for her.

I have set a few boundaries, the primary one (and possibly the prime reason she 'can't live with me') is that I have refused to allow OM in or anywhere near our home. I can deal with her speaking to him, but not in front of me, interupting something we are doing together, or ignoring me if I want to tell her something while she is on the phone with him. She also knows that if she wants me to do things for her she has to be respectful.

I don't ever feel like I am being mean, or petty...difficult, yes, difficult for the A =) But that is fine with me. I just wasn't sure about if or how much to help since I recall SAA mentioning that the BS should offer WS assistance in moving out.

Wow, now I'm confused! I thought I understood Plan A/B, now I come to learn that exposing is supposed to be part of B! Sigh...oh well, too late now, huh?

I have a relative date for Plan B; if she doesn't move out then late October; if she does move out then two months after that with late October being the latest.

I am definitely still Plan A, although for the last month and a half she has been too distant to really fulfill to many ENs...regardless, I continue to fulfill all I can, and am doing a dang good job, if I can say so myself.

Telling her about the pain she causes is off and on since she barely talks to me, and I allow her to initiate most conversation. None the less, I've kept it up.

I've exposed to the main organizer (he was glad I did since, despite what WW will claim, it isn't a purely 'personal' matter; it does have quite an impact in many other ways!), and many others who will be at the retreat know...I'm sure more will know when people ask where I am at.

Ah! Well, the retreat will be a few hundred people, so there will be no mass intro session...then again, I can speak in front of people, be blunt, bring up uncomfortable topics...but doing that in front of that many people I would probably just pass out.

Thanks...I'll work on that sigline=)

-SW

Is this too much for a sigline? Anything that I don't need to mention, or something I should add?

BH/FWH - 22 (me)
WW - 20
Married 2 1/2 years
OM - 24 (single)
no kids
Her A - 08/05-present; long-distance EA/PA
My A - 11/05-01/06; NC let sent 06/02/06
WW claiming no interest in M, and me trying to save M (after having claimed no interest): 01/23/06
No kids
Exposed to friends, family (mine and hers), and some acquantances at various times. No negative reactions to me.

I think in SAA he also talks about exposing during plan A - so it is OK to get you support and stop the WS from duping others who may be involved. B is when you HAVE to expose to all and sundry in order to kill the affair and to refuse to see or talk to her so she has to go it alone. When you decide that in order to protect your love for her from being destroyed by her behaviour you tell her to leave or you leave yourself and give her a letter telling her what she has to do for you to have any contact with her and for you to rebuild the marriage.

But the way to deal with them saying they are leaving is to tell them to go sooner - this takes away the glamour of it and makes it uncomfortable for them to go. it puts pressure on them. the hope is that putting pressure on them brings them down to earth while the plan A shows them the loving marriage they could have. if they do not come to their senses during Plan A, then you go to Plan B and they have to do it the hard way. So Plan B is not always necessary, depending on how the WS responds.

Even more confused? Maybe not. You are OK - expose to the retreat definitely (I am taking it as read that it is a Christian or spiritual retreat) as many as you can - they should not be able to share a room as she is married to someone else and is also sharing a home with you - let them know.

SP

Alright, so my understanding of Plan A/B was slightly incomplete, but nothing big, good!

I am now trying to figure out if I am 'performing' at peak, as it were. She asked a few days ago if I could take the cats (we have two), then today said that maybe she shouldn't leave them with me since I don't give them enough attention (in defense, I do! She just doesn't see it=) ). When she said that I questioned myself if I should have just said that I do and I want them, or if I should have said something about her moving out. So I should tell her to move out sooner (which I have), but also let her know how her moving out hurts me and why? It seems more consistent to just do the former...

Then, how often should I mention that the A--or at least her speaking to him in our home--is disrespectful and hurtful? I know only to say it when she isn't going anywhere, not on the phone, etc. But I also know that it will kill any positive--even if only light--conversation which I believe deposits love units.

She has continued to open up very slowly, but consistently, so I am happy. She has being doing small things again that she had stopped a long time ago, and has been much less tempermental. I know it doesn't mean anything necessarily, and that only time will tell what and if it means anything at all, but it is still nice.

As for the retreat, no, it isn't Christian, religious, or spiritual. Its a leftist political retreat; I've not mentioned it since I didn't think it mattered, and also I don't want to get into a political discussion on here=) Anyhow, one downside about the political left (of course there are many!) is that I don't think anyone will try and prevent them from rooming together, and I doubt many people that even know will make mention of it. They may judge and have an ethical issue with my WW and the OM, but I bet most will pretend as if nothing is different and not say a word. Hence also why I've been hesitant about it. I highly respect how those on the political right tend to have a community that deals with both the political and the personal issues we face; whereas many on the left seem to have a massive alergy when it comes to dealing with moral, personal, etc. problems on a day-to-day basis. Alas, I digress!

Let me do some reading up - I have so many MB books I have to remember what is said in each and what the context is. Where did your other posters go? We should ask them to chime in.

Always tell her when she talks to him on the phone. And plan B is when you cannot plan A any more - when her continued A begins to destroy your love for her. The pint of telling her to move out soon is to reverse babble her. She says she is going to get you upset - you calmly say go sooner. Her power of pain is reversed.

Yes if she makes a statement that is not true - say so, quietly and calmly. "i do give the cats attention, but you are not around to see it." like it is a non important throw away line. You could add something like, "I don't love them as much as I do you - but I do take care of them and give them attention, as I intend to give you whatever you need to want our marriage".

As for the retreat - email them all - refer to the strong ethics of this group - everyone loves to be called ethical and there is a good chance they do have those ethics and someone may stand for you even though you don't expect it to happen. Just one person speaking to them or her about it will make an impression, and she will be embarrassed, don't let her have a great time with him, send the email and then tell her, so she can feel eyes upon her.

SP

Thanks SP=)

I don't know what happened to the other posters...perhaps you are saying just that they would? The more that chime in, though, the better!

You said, "Always tell her when she talks to him on the phone." Just to be certain: you mean tell her AS she is on the phone with him, right?

I think I may very well e-mail them all, or at least a good number of key folks (the main organizer has everyone's contact info and is sympathetic, so I could easily get specific names or possibly a fuller and more updated list than I have), but I still want some time to mentally/emotionally prep and be certain...as of now I have some time. Plus, I am beginning to really doubt if she is going to go since I know she is REALLY struggling to have enough money to move out, and if she DOES go then it says that either 1) she is really deep in the fog to do that to see him, or 2) she isn't that seriously concerned about moving out....or both! Either way though, it would put pressure on her and him.

Today was interesting: this was the first time she invited me to go out with her, to a birthday party...she hasn't invited me ANYWHERE in over a month now. She also told me just where she is planning on moving, and a bunch of other things.

I told her at first that it was good she found a place like she did...then I paused and said, "What am I saying? I don't want you to move out, and it hurts that you are willing to give up on us so easily." She made a face, but didn't say anything, even after I asked if she had something to say.

She also brought up the bottled water since it is under her name and is a two-year contract. She suggested that she would keep it all here, pick up a bottle a month for herself, etc. At first I agreed, after a little I told her I believed it was best if she just took it herself since I didn't want to pay 'her' bills. She got upset at that.

That set me to thinking and I want to explain exactly why tomorrow by saying something like: "You know I have and will do just about anything for you, but I will never help you destroy our marriage; I will not do things to make it easier for you to move out. I'm not going to threaten you or pull any dirty tricks, but instead I'm doing you no favors; you signed the contract, its yours. If you stay then no problem, if you move out, it is all in your hands. I'm more than happy to help pay for your education, bills, clothes, anything that I can, but nothing that will assist you in moving away from our marriage--so that also means not to expect any financial help for anything once you move out. I will, on the other hand, help you move your things because that isn't something that will make it easier or harder for you to move out and instead is simply an extension of my deep love for you." Something like that anyhow...I'm not going to write a script after all.

I know she will really begin to realize the importance of our marriage and how much she misses me once she moves out...I only hope it occurs soon and intensely enough to prevent Plan B being put into operation! I won't be surprised either way though.