I feel for you, thats quiet a thread.
The self-blame seems to be so common but so mis-placed.

It amazes me how many posts have a husband cheating and they blame themselves? Its so backwards, its very difficult for me to take in.

Earlier on, you seemed more at peace or positive in that you were heading to college for some courses etc..sounded great! you sounded positive and motivated (almost as if the fling was ok by you).


Then soon it was the grown men/ sons with babys that showed up at the door, per se.
This read like an OVERLOAD situation or RED FLAG point.

Hope it all works out, but you sound like you've done everything right! what do I know?

Believer, I have apologized but I need to take it the one step further and ask him how he would like it handled from this point forward.

SRSI, Yes they are grown sons by years but both of my boys have other diagonis that while not unique to my sons doesn't apply to everyone:

Oldest one - Learning Disabled and Attention Deficit Disorder. He has a Special Ed Diploma that isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Youngest Son - Attention Deficit Disorder and Conduct Disorder. And a total manipulator. He also has a Special Ed Diploma.

The difference between my two sons, is the Oldest struggles to learn and takes him longer and the youngest has fried a good portion of his brain due to drug useage. He is very smart but has short term memory loss. He is Lazy and H enables him.

As far as H spending money on our son, I agree it was more then likely done out of guilt. However the biggest problem I have is he does everything for one and nothing for the other one.

Part of it I know is the youngest will ask for what he wants, (non stop) and the oldest will not ask anyone for anything.

You are right though I am on brain overload right now and just doing my best to maintain on a day to day basis.

Thanks for the input. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Is your oldest son working?

How about the younger one? And what drug is he doing?

Yes he is working at the same place I work just in a different capacity. He is currently working 2nd shift and will be transferring to first shift as soon as they can train someone to take his place.


No he is currently not working. He never seems to hang on to a job for very long. His last job he worked 21 straight days without a day off so he took a couple of days off and got fired. This is so typical of him. His drug of choice is marijuana, but his most recent drug test came up positive for marijuna, cocaine and I forget the name of the pill (a relaxant). He has been in nunerous drug treatment programs and has even spent time in jail due to drugs and still is not willing or able to quit.

This drug issue is the number one issue that son and I argue over. I will not and can not accept his using any sort of drugs.

I forgot to comment on this earlier. I do not blame myself for H's affair. That was a choice he made on his own. I do share in the responsbility in the problems we have in our marriage.


No I was never okay with it. What I was doing was starting to live my own life. One that may or may not have included H in it. I was never OK with the affair and still am not. I have a ton of questions for him about it before I can even begin to move past his cheating. However these will be asked in MC as that is the only place H will more than likely be honest and even attempt to answer.

Either with or without H, life goes on. I will do what I can to ensure that our marriage will last and I will pray that we can make it past all the problems but either way I am a survivor.

Stay on course, Leslie. You've got a good plan and it's yielding small victories as you go along.

How does younger son have the money to buy drugs. Last I checked marijuana and cocaine were very expensive.

Well let's see, as you have heard where there is a will there is a way. He has pawned anything and everything we have ever given him. He has stolen from us. He has friends that will give him drugs. And though I have no proof since he never seems to have money on him, I'm sure he has sold drugs at one time or another.

Yes I have had him arrested before, I will in no way condone or accept drug useage whether it's in my house or not.

He has been in several drug rehabs and has nothing to his name anymore except his car (which he bought used when he was working the 21 days straight - mega overtime) he still continues to say there is nothing wrong with marijuana.

Leslie:

I do feel for you. So, so hard to work on your marriage in the midst of dealing with so many parenting issues.

I have a couple of questions that may be important to consider. I'm not sure if you've stated the answers previously.

What was your H's attraction to the OW? What were the primary needs that she was meeting for him? Do you think that the A was his means of escape from the family problems..your sons? Was the A in response to a CRISIS that he was experiencing in his life?

I learned from Steve Harley, based on his conversations with my H, that my H had been grieving over our older son's major troubles. My H felt like a failure as a father. I HAD NO IDEA OF THIS!! I had been assuming that my H didn't really care. I had neglected to consider my H's feelings about the children. My excuse to Steve was that my H never TOLD me how he was feeling. Steve did not buy MY EXCUSE, saying certainly I must have known intuitively that my H cared about his son. To this day, my H says that he TOLD me about his emotional PAIN. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I have learned through this and a lot of reading lately that men certainly handle their feelings differently than we do as women. Men, I have learned, do not feel comfortable TALKING about their feelings. I don't think that your H is different than most others in this respect.

Let me know if any of this fits...maybe it's irrelevant in your situation. But to me..it sounds so similar...

My H needed MY ATTENTION and MY ATTENTION was focused on the CHILDREN. The OW gave her undivided attention and allowed my H to escape into a FANTASY WORLD of their making..Of course it was a CRAZY, SICK WORLD...that he says that I don't need to fully learn about....

The only time I attempted to talk to H about the OW, he was not willing to talk about it. One of my plans is to try to bring up a couple of questions a week while we are in MC. I am thinking that he will feel more comfortable talking and being truthful during MC.

I am sure part of the affair was an escape from the issues with our sons. Now keep in mind though when H moved out grandson was not living with me then. Anyway, for years I honestly believe one of the reasons we stayed together was neither one of us wanted to "saddle" the other with the issues of our youngest son. I know I had thought about leaving several times myself.

What happened during the last five years of our marriage was I withdrew from everyone and everything. I was then put on meds for depression and that just seemed to make me fall into a deeper darker pit that I saw no way out of. H never really considered depresssion as a true mental health condition. I attempted suicide during this time period also and was hospitalized. He thought one could just snap out of it. He tried to be there in the beginning as much as he could be for me but at some point he just got fed up and left me to work my way out of it myself.

During this time, H had to carry the entire load of taking care of all of us (mentally, physically and emotionally). This included visiting our son while in jail (my perception to this was, I did not want to see my son in jail. He got there by choices he made). I was not there for my H emotionally or mentally during this time frame. Yes I was there physically but I may as well not have been because it was just a shell of my body that was there.

There are several issues with our oldest son that plays a part in h's interaction with him. Son was 3 when H and I got married and H had never been around kids in his life. (no nieces, nephews, cousins) H's dad spent most of H's younger years in the service so H never had a roll model. H is the only male child in his family. So by the time we got married not only was H trying to learn to be a Husband he was trying to learn to be a father. To some degree I'm sure he felt my son was his compitetion for my attention.

In addition, youngest son has no problems asking for what he wants (which is always something) where as oldest son will not ask for anything. It's like it has been so long for both of them that neither Oldest son nor H know how to bridge the gap anymore. Neither one seems to be willing to take the first step.

I am the one that keeps in contact with H's family. H hasn't seen them in close to ten years. Due to their advanced age they can no longer travel to see us and yet H still will not go back to visit. It's like on the surface he has no need for deep emotional connection with anyone.

The odd thing is that NEVER ONCE can I ever remember H apologizing for anything during the whole time we have been married. Yet he doesn't vocally place blame on others, he just internilizes everything.

How do you get through to someone like this?

Leslie:

Your situation DOES sound a lot like mine.

I, too, suffered from a depression and continue to take ADs..probably will for life...



I betcha he was able to establish "some sort of" an emotional connection to that young thing..recreating his YOUTH..

For my H, there's been a change in middle age that I was not aware of/sensitive to...they revert back to childhood..need lots of attention and affection but don't TELL you this...easy for those YOUNG GIRLS to do this...SOOO CONVENIENT for them..YUCK...

What has worked for my once emotionally detached/emotionally distant FWH, is to NOT encourage him TO TALK...

I became his "SHOULDER BUDDY"..this is talked about in the book, "LOVE AND RESPECT"..

I sit with him and listen to him....like if you sat outside while he worked on the cars...

I was unaware of the SIGNIFICANCE AND IMPORTANCE of just MY PHYSICAL PRESENCE to him...BEING THERE FOR HIM...

He hasn't been able to put these NEEDS into WORDS that well..that's because of the difficulty with expressing EMOTIONS...

Make any sense at all?

Also, it's been most important for us to FOCUS ON THE PRESENT and to PLAN for the FUTURE... TO HAVE FUN NOW..he likes for me TO PLAY with him..TO CHILL..

In fact, I much enjoy this kind of life, too...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I do go outside and sit with him some. Granted it's not for that long of a period each time because I usually have the grandson and it's hard to keep him out of things.

I wrote down a list of questions that hopefully one day I will get answers to. I was hoping to be able to ask a couple of questions each time we go to MC.

Today the MC called me and had to reschedule for a different time but still on the same day. I told MC while he was on the phone that I had written out a list of questions that I felt I need answers to. I asked him how he felt about me asking some during MC'g. His reply was, It is a great idea and he understands I have these questions, but he wants me to refrain from asking any this week as he wants H to get comfortable with being there.

I see his point and will follow his suggestion, but it's still disappointing to me that unless the M Counselor has some thing in mind, I'll still be left wondering and wishing I had answers.

This has always been a biggie for me, the waiting. I want to get on with things..so I'm learning to slow down (which I still hate doing) and hopefully H will learn to speed up some so that maybe somewhere along the way we will finally be able to one day meet in the middle. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Strange week here with son in hospital. Between trying to visit son, and H trying to visit son and H's classes we have barely seen each other all week. I sure am glad we have MC tomorrow, it might remind me what H looks like.

It feels like H is backsliding right now, (comes home very late from hospital visit) then plays his guitar and by midnight I can no longer hold my eyes open so I go to bed. Meanwhile H is still up playing his guitar.

Last night, I was feeling so down, so once H got home, and settled down for a bit I decided to share some of what I was feeling with him (I don't think it mattered to him) but I was able to get it off my chest. I kept things calm, did not accuse, I simply stated this is how I am feeling lately,

I told him that I felt like he was backsliding this week. (again I'm sure this comes from lack of time together) and I asked him if he has had contact with OW, he replied NO. I then asked him if he missed OW, he said NO. I told him that while I know he is busy at work and sometimes not at his desk, that when I call and can't talk to him it feels like a flashback to when he was not answering my calls.

I was actually surprised that H even answered the two questions I asked. So I thanked him for listening to how I was feeling and left it at that.

Kinda funny though in our first MC session the MC asked H if there was an emotional connection between him and OW and he replied yes, then last night he says he doesn't miss her. After thinking about it, I'm not sure there was an emotional connection between them. I think if it wasn't her it could have been anyone as long as they were willing to provide him a reason for leaving without him having to be alone. Make sense to anyone?

I think there was probably an emotional connection to her, Leslie and he felt more comfortable saying this in the presence of the counselor.

Maybe not an emotional connection with HER per se but the relationship did allow him to connect emotionally, I think.

He may not be telling you the truth about not missing her or maybe he doesn't miss HER but misses the fun and excitement of the RELATIONSHIP. He likely remains foggy and may not be able to respond truthfully to direct questions from you.. A conflict avoider, he may feel like you are interrogating him and the fear of conflict may be causing anxiety for him. That was my experience with my H while he was in the fog..and also comes from my own experience as a former CAer.

Your H sounds like mine..not the emotional type. For my H, to this day as always, his ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN HIS WORDS. Your H being at home and going to therapy speak more VOLUMES than his answers to your questions. I've learned all this the hard way through these difficult years in Recovery, hoping my experience is helpful to you in some way.

Plus, sad to say to you, without definite proof and without the openness and extraordinary precautions we have previously discussed, you cannot trust that he is not in contact with her.

For me, I really needed for my H to be available to me 24/7 this time and he has been for almost three years. He has been willing to do that and wants to do that...I guess for himself as much as for me. During our false recoveries, he was not available and he did regain contact with the OW. That's why the extraordinary precautions were NOT NEGOTIABLE for me.

What you're describing is an "exit affair," Leslie, and I don't think that fits what he's done since. His first act after you confronted OW was to start negotiating to come home, albeit using rent at the hotel as an excuse. That doesn't sound like he was very intent on leaving you. He could have just turned away from you and plodded on through a formal separation, etc. He didn't. While your son’s medical problems have necessitated a small distance between you this week, that doesn’t negate the slow progress made in the days before your son had to go to the hospital.

That's normal. Affairs rarely have much to do with the betrayed spouse. While you might have contributed to the problems in the marriage, he wasn't reacting to you when he indulged himself with something inherently cruel and incredibly selfish. It was something within himself that he was responding to, not you. To me, the trick will be for you and your MC to work on your husband to get him to open up and stop suppressing all his emotional reactions to life and living. It’s going to be tough because a man in his 50’s is well entrenched in certain behavioral patterns, but it must be done. I’ll be interested in hearing about tomorrow night’s MC. Hang in there, Leslie.

This is going to be a bold statement ....kind of counter to your thinking, Longhorn. You are a man, right? I'm wondering how old you are..probably doesn't matter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

We have to keep in mind that Leslie's H had an affair with a much younger woman..There are issues, I think, of him wanting to be ADMIRED and RESPECTED.

It will be key, I think, for him NOT to think that his wife is WORKING on CHANGING him. He probably does not want to feel emasculated by her. This is a biggy for middle-aged men from what I have been reading and experiencing with my H.

Plus, don't men handle emotions differently than women? I just don't see Leslie's husband finding it easy to spill out his guts. He likely will respond better if his own way of doing this is considered and respected by the therapist. It seems that this therapist is sensitive to this and that is good. Leslie should be sure to follow the therapist's lead.

My opinion...

I agree MiMi, there must have been some emotional connection because H isn't one just to sleep with someone without that connection. It even got to the point where I think he felt that if he slept with me he was cheating on her.

I was just amazed that he even answered at all. Prior to last night he wasn't willing to answer anything. Now, keep in mind that I didn't make last night seem like I was interogating him, nor did I get confrontation with him. That might have helped him at least feel comfortable to some degree with giving any answer at all.

Once agian issues with our youngest son and I let H know that I think we need to work on solutions together instead of either one of us trying to fix things alone. I just want him to know we can do this together.

You are right though MiMi, H going to MC is a huge step.

I have read information on several types of affair, and I see some of H's actions in the "Exit Affair" however I also see some similitaries in what is called an "Exploratory Affair" and still others in the "Mid Life Crisis". Kinda gets confusing.

As you said LH, one of the hardest parts for anyone is the leaving, since he had accomplished that if it was an "Exit Affair" he could have just filed papers. Since he didn't that told me he wasn't sure what he wanted.

The MC has already figured out that H is not one to talk a lot and that his why he doesn't want me to ask questions this week. He wants H to feel comfortable in coming there. I plan on letting the C lead the way. I think the Counselor has already seen how H is not one to open up easily.

I'll keep you posted on what happens tomorrow.

Mimi, it isn't appropriate for you to be trying to debate me on this thread, darn it. This is Leslie's thread and everyone should concentrate on her. Please just give her your best advice and I'll do the same.

Threadjack finished.

Sorry, Longhorn..

I haven't been trying to debate you..at least, not on purpose...but I think debates are OK...

Just expressing my differing opinions...

I, personally, learn from hearing differing opinions...

For me, it's OK for you to share with me how you may see things differently than I do.

I come here to learn as well as to TRY TO HELP...

I would think Leslie can profit from our differing viewpoints and can pick and choose what she uses to her benefit...

Mimi..definitely no longer a conflict avoider...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />