Hunny, YOU were the one that bought it up first.

I was just curious.

I dont accept your theory that the Great Flood is mythology. No one has proven that it didnt happen.


As I said 2Long...this is a personal reaction to the movie. the question was what we thought about the movie/book. And it is indeed personal when others talk about or portray this Man in ways that are clearly not who He was or is. I know Him, and I know what He did for me. My faith also is very much intact. A fictional movie isnt going to shake that. But it still hurts and makes me a little angry when He is portrayed in ways that clearly are not Him.

That's all I have tried to write here.

In His arms.

Saw the movie over the weekend and thought it was better than the critics thought. As a spirtual person I did not think that it threatened my belief system. Guess if I had been Catholic I might have been offended because it did not represent the Catholic Church in a favorable light.
'-Tex Mex. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

My ex did try to sever my relationship with my daughter, Susan. My response became much, MUCH more effective after I stopped fighting and started taking compassionate, clear, grounded action.

Susan:

OK!.. I confess..I'm really HILLARY CLINTON...

Just kidding...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Mortarman,

“I will check them out. But as I have said, the research has shown that the manuscripts that we have found statistically have little variance. And none of the variances changes the basic text (Such as if I wrote that I was wearing a blue tunic when I went to visit Jesus, and then someone wrote that I wore a white one).”

Don’t take my word for it. Yes, the books I reference are good enough. Especially the first book in the Amazon list.

I don’t know what research you refer to as “the research,” but Erhman is a biblical scholar and very thorough. He does not agree with your citations, whatever they are. His books are written at a general level, but his references and research are listed for all to see. His background was fundamental and literal, when he started his studies.

This issue of erroneous translations and reproductions, I want to be clear, in no way affects my fundamental Christian beliefs. It's just part of the human condition, Things aren’t always what they appear and observations are often fundamentally ambiguous, like Quantum Mechanics and Schrodinger's Cat.

OK, that analogue isn’t very accurate. Let me think on a better way to put it.


With prayers,

I attacked? I made ill-logical conclusions? Ark...you know better than that.


Ark, who peed in your Cheerios today? I attacked no one. I didnt go on any crusade. I gave my personal view of the movie/book, told why my personal relationship with jesus makes me a little upset in Him being portrayed in a way that clearly He is not. That's it.

What I do see is that I talk about my view of the movie, and it includes my personal reaction to my friend Jesus being portrayed this way...and then you come here accusing me of things I didnt say nor mean...in order to accomplish what? To shut me up?


Oopppps. sorry Ark. I thought you were talking about me. I can see what you were saying, and that you were talking about FH.

But let me say on this that I have seen a lot of vitriol toward FH, especially from specific posters. And FH has dished it back...and most of the time I think deservedly so.

I think that several posters may just not be able to deal with FH's way of portraying his views and ideas.

Not much to suggest on this, as I do believe that we should let the free exchaneg of ideas happen, even when it might to be want we want to hear.

In His arms.

This is your opinion...I do not agree with it.


You believe He was misquoted. I dont.


God spoke to Moses directly from a Burning Bush. Not sure what you mean that God doesnt have words.


The message of Jesus was that NO ONE will get to Heaven except thru Him. That He was THE way, THE truth, THE light. That was the message of Jesus.


This is your opinion. It is not what historical evidence and what Scripture shows that Jesus said or meant.


Sayig it doe not make it Christian.


Interesting. But as Jesus has shown us, the path to Heaven is very narrow...the path to ****** is very wide. Unfortunately, all paths lead to Heaven really dont. Those paths are all the wide path.

The path to Jesus and to God is very narrow.

But your beliefs are yours. But I do know that Jesus said, and it is written in Scripture, that one day all of us will come face-to-face with jesus. And no matter how sincere or good we thought we were...if we didnt accept His way to Heaven thru His free gift...then He will say to that person "I never knew you."

Again, it hurts to hear that some believe that His sacrifice meant NOTHING to them. That we could make it to Heaven without Him suffering, without Him dying. Pointless.

That is very sad, because He did pay that sacrifice for all. And all we have to do is accept it, acknowledge it...and follow Him.

"If you love me, you will obey My commands." Pretty simple...maybe not easy...but very simple.

In His arms.

Just J,

Dang, I typed out a long response and got totally dumped out of the net... grrr...

So, this will be shorter...

I appreciate your thoughtful, and as usual eloquent, response.

In my own internal housekeeping I've been doing, I have realized that there are some things I feel are worth fighting for... and by that, I mean FIGHTING for... and yes, while I realize that some harm may occur, it is the price that is sometimes paid for the greater good.

I resoect the work of the Dhali Lama and others who embrace (live and breathe) compassionate care... and have strived (striven?) to be that kind of person. However, I think that those who are truly able give compassion in the face of evil are probably far more evolved than I.

Or maybe I just define compassion in a different way?

I suppose it could just be that I have been a doormat for some people to trample over, or wipe their feet upon, for too long. I'm through with that kind of compassion. If compassion for others allows abuse(s) to myself or those I care about to continue, that's not what I think compassion *truly* is. Do you know what I mean?

MM:

"I dont accept your theory that the Great Flood is mythology. No one has proven that it didnt happen."

What's sad 2 me is that it is so unnecessary 2 read the GF story as literal truth 2 get the message it contains.

As for proof it didn't happen? It COULDN'T happen. The volume of the Earth's water inventory couldn't physically be increased 2 such a degree as 2 drown everything at least 2 the elevation of Mt Ararat, then decreased 2 its pre-flood levels. Even Kevin Costner couldn't do it plausibly.

The Gilgamesh flood story is almost identical 2 the Noah story, predates the Noah story, is Babylonian, and differs mainly in that there are multiple deities, rather than one. It is "clear" that the Noah flood story is adapted and modified from the earlier one.

I, for one, find that interesting. I don't think it diminishes the messages of either story.

-ol' 2long

weaver:

"And to whomever asked this question, I have read the Bible from cover to cover"

Me 2, ac2ally. Though it was a very long time ago that I did.

I know you wouldn't be surprised by that, though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

I agree

here's another work of FICTION that caused many a reader to 'stop and think'

Left Behind

fiction

a novel

made into a movie

expressed a point of view

again, controversial
thought provoking

same deal-io

Pep

WOW! JustJ, you managed 2 verbalize the very point I've been trying 2 get across here for at least the past 4 years now.

Like "What you resist, persists." I sure re-learned that this past week after the "great Mother's Day gift request of 2006".

I MUST let go, or I'll go nuts. Sure, no small children's lives are at stake, but a lot of people's fu2res are nonetheless.


Having said all that, I still don't know whether I have much strength 2 continue without "giving up hope" or appearing 2. For now, my sense of responsibility 2 myself and my family sustains me. We'll see.

Likely, life will happen while I'm "fighting" or being compassionate anyway.

-ol' 2long

MM,

You miss my point. But since I do believe in God and don’t want my questions here to make others question their faith, I will not pursue this further. I just leave you with the thought that for every belief you have on this issue, ask yourself “How do I know it is true?” Try to follow this question to its conclusion and see what happens. You’d be surprised.

God bless.

Well, I don't know, 2long. Gandhi resisted British rule in India.

Sometimes it's necessary for someone to resist what's coming down -- just for others to suddenly stop, see what they are doing, and make choices.

Lots of people we celebrate as heroes did exactly that. See "A Man for All Seasons," or whatever.

Sometimes being "compassionate" means recognizing that giving in is enabling. Sometimes "fighting" is just not giving in to lies.

Gee, I shouldn't have to say that on this board. Many of us have paid the price for not truckling up to the A and saying, "It must be for the best -- he seems so happy." Believe it or not, plenty of people do that.


"It is the advantage and the nature of the strong that they can bring crucial issues to the fore and take a clear position regarding them. The weak always have to choose between alternatives that are not their own."

Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Letters and Papers from Prison

I'm sorry 2long (and others) I have read the New Testament in entirety (at least the version I have), not the Old Testament though, although I did grow up in church (Presbyterian and Methodist), Sunday School, teen youth club and Bible study classes where I think most of it probably was covered...so that is not the Bible from cover to cover.

And LOL 2long, no I am not surprised that you have read the entire Bible, probably more than once.

Geez! I didn't mean that to sound snotty or challenging when I asked how many have read the Bible cover-to-cover -- and I wasn't even directing that at the MB board in particular

It's my project this year, and I'm finding it very enlightening (I had read New Testament, Genesis, and various books, and of course excerpts -- but not the whole thing, all the way through, beginning to end).

For one thing, books like Joshua give me a whole new slant on current Israeli politics.

It's an amazing thing -- and it's interesting to read the "excerpts" in context, as a very long story. Different themes emerge -- and are repeated in a pattern I had never seen before.

But I do flinch when people talk about "believing the Bible," as if it's one homogenous things and not a collection, an anthology. Generally when I hear people talk that way, it sounds like they'd only read the Cliff Notes version. It seems to me too reductionist a formulation, too simplistic an approach.

If you have any kind of ear for language, it's clear that it was written in different eras, for different intentions. And hearing all these different voices, through millenia, is fascinating.

Those paths are all the wife path.

Really? So any path which differs from the one you have chosen, which would be the Fundalmentalist Baptist Church I presume, are all the wife path?

Why would a loving God create a world filled with children He loves, give them all free will and then make only one path back to Him, and no proof that this is the right path at all?

Why? Is this really what you believe, that a loving God would do this? Is this some big joke of his?

Why do you believe God would do this MM?


You don't need to answer this MM...

I just wonder if you ever think about it, because I thought about it so much after first hearing the beliefs of you and FH, I almost decided I couldn't possibly be Christian if it was true...almost, but not quite.

I don't even like talking about this on this board away from Gray's campfire, but since you and FH are so very vocal in the "truth", I think it is important that all start vocalizing their "truth", just to maintain balance...

and lest they start questioning God at all, as I did after coming to this board and reading you & FH's views.

And as for the biblical scholars you refer to and who help shape your beliefs, there are biblical scholars right here on this board, and many biblical scholars who do not interpret the bible literally but who nontheless are very Christian.

They just are not as vocal as you, nor on a mission to convert the world to their beliefs.

Are all Muslims going to he11 then? Just curious. Some of them might like the heads up.

Oh I didn't think you sounded snotty at all AM. But I thought it was question, so I answered it. LOL

You sound so excited about reading the Bible from cover to cover, that's cool.

I can't get through the OT, it is just too much and makes no sense to me.