I originally posted this on the InRecovery board - but was advised to post here....

This is my first post – and I need some help. I’ve been reading these boards for about 5 months now.

I learned that my wife was having an affair with someone at work In January. I believe the affair had been going on since at least early December and possibly earlier. She spent a number of trips with OM in Dec and Jan and that is where the PA started. I sensed this almost immediately – actually it was fairly spooky how much I really sensed.

Anyway after confronting her in late Jan and having her admit to the affair I have been trying to operate in Plan A. I was able to get her to go to counseling – but in late March she stopped going because she said it only made her feel bad and she was tired of rehashing the past – in a sense “Can’t we just forget and move on?”

My wife’s entire family knows about the affair and she has alienated most of them. She still works with OM on a daily basis – their offices are next to each other. The OM wife knows – and the last I heard they were in counseling – but I’m beginning to really wonder about that. The only other person at work that knows is her boss.

Things around the house seem normal – but again that is because I am operating in Plan A – trying to show that I am a great husband and father to our son – which I am. I’m trying very hard to avoid and LB’s at any cost.

This past weekend was my birthday. It’s been at least 7 months since our last SF. We went out- had a good time… I thought things were on track. We come home – I make an advance and I get told she’s not ready yet. I really don’t understand this since I think I should be the one that’s not ready. I feel as if we are just friends sharing the same house. There is absolutely no intimacy between us and it doesn’t seem that is going to change any time soon.

I don’t want to make this a deal about SF – BUT… it really makes we wonder if the A is still going on and/or she still has feelings for him.

While I want her to find a different job (or quit all together) – she says that isn’t an option. “This is the best job she’s ever had”. She’s been a better mom lately and comes home after work when she is supposed to. When I bring up SF she turns it around and tells me that I guess that what she is doing just isn’t good enough for me.

I really don’t know what to do anymore. I love my family and I love my wife – but if this is how my life is going to be from here on out – It doesn’t sound too pleasant. I want to hang in there and continue to try – but I feel as if I’m the one doing all the work.

Comments – or words of support are needed!

Thanks!

How do you know she knows?

Does your wife claim it's over?

Continuing in their work setting is a non-starter. One of them has to change. Period.

Dazed,

I know you want to have SF with your WW as it has been a while for you, but do you really want to jeopardize your life just to have SF with WW? Until your WW get tested for STDs and she receives a clean bill of health, you are playing with Russian roulette if you have unprotected sex with her. She most likely had unprotected sex with OM. You need to come to grip with this and act accordingly.

Second, there will be no recovery until NC is established with OM. So although, you may believe otherwise, you are not in recovery as WW continues to work and keeps having contact with OM. My friend, recovery has not yet started in your case. NC or Bust should be your motto.

Lastly, you may want to contact OMW and see where she and OM are at in their M. Do not believe the reports given to you by WW. She will continue to lie to you as long as it suits her purpose. Get in touch with OMW and get the real scoop.

So in your case, the first priority should be to get WW or OM to quit their job. Your M has no chance until then.

God Bless

WAT,

You read my mind.

Scary, huh?

Check out my reply to you on GF's thread. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

Dazed,

I'm not going to discount what WAT said. It's sound and it's solid. The likelyhood that the A is still ongoing it high. I do, however, want to propose another view.

I applaud you for not going postal for lack of SF. I know it's difficult. I also understand where you're coming from when you say that it ought to be you who decides when you're ready, etc. Just remember, SF isn't an entitlement. Until romantic love returns to your relationship, you may very well be just friends coparenting in the same house. For some people it happens faster than others.

WS often suffer depression, feelings of worthlessness, feeling unworthy of your love. I'm certainly not trying to invalidate your feelings, I'm saying it's possible that she can't love you because she doesn't love herself yet. Just food for thought.

Best wishes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"When I bring up SF she turns it around and tells me that I guess that what she is doing just isn’t good enough for me."

My FWW says this a lot as well so don't think you are alone. When she says that I try to reassure her that it is but I would also like to ..... For you thats SF.

I think that for men SF is always pretty high on the needs list. There wasn't a high enough rating because it only went to 10 and I think mine is really a 12.LOL. It is hard to try to fill your partners EN's when you don't think your's are being met. I had a hard time meeting my FWW's need for communication and affection when my need for SF was not being met. But when I filled her needs she was more inclined to fill mine.

Right now I do not have that need for SF from my FWW and since I have not been inclined to she is actually being more aggressive about it. Don't try this it might backfire. I am not playing a game with her I just don't want to be with her intimately right now. Since I don't want to be intimate with her she is now trying to fill her needs for SF by being more aggressive.

I also applaud you for not going postal because that has been a bone of contention in our relationship since D Day. I have felt like she used it as a tool to get me to be a good boy.

Now you have the feeling that something else might be going on. Don't jump to conclusions if there is no proof take it for what it is. She just doesn't think it is time yet. I know that is hard to deal with but you have to be patient.

You may even ask her why she doesn't feel ready yet. Maybe it is something that can be fixed. I called my FWW some pretty harsh names on D Day and she didn't want to be with me because of those names I called her. I know it was an LB so no lectures please. You can imagine the names and I am sure no woman would want to be with a man that thought that about her.

Drexxell,

For some reason, I feel that your response is probably her state of mind... unless she is really fooling me.

I agree with establishing boundaries... and I need to become stronger and better at it. For me though, ultimatums won't work either... "Quit work or we get a D" just don't seem to work in my mind. I don't want to force my W to be with me. I would rather she returned willing on her own accord and decided to quit work because it was the right thing to do.

BTW - the reason I didn't demand she quit right away was because she was in the middle of a two year project that was to finish in April. It did... and she managed it well. I was under the impression that she was going to leave once she accomplished that.

I'm just unsure how much longer I can wait. Yeah, SF is part of it... but having this uncertainity about my M is much worse.

I'm considering calling the OMW to find out exactly where things are at. I learned this past week, my W looked up online court records (and him specifically) so I'm wondering if they are getting divorced. You would think that would be why she looked right?

Aside from work hours (office enviroment), my W has been going to work and returning home at very normal hours - so I have a hard time believing that a PA could still be going on. I'm sure that it is still EA though.

I'm lost.

Dazed, her boss knows and what is the companies policy concerning this type of behavior?

Expose, Expose, Expose.

Have you talked to the OM's wife? You can not trust your wife to do the right thing. You can't trust her to tell you the truth either. You can hope for it, you can pray she is doing what she says, but can't expect anything from her right now. Once she is has gone through withdraw, then you have a chance, that won't happen as long as she is working with the OM.

Dazed,

An office environement is a totally different world. Every office has it's own pecking order, and it's cliques, and it's language, laws and even it's own morals.

If they just had a hot and heavy PA at the first of the year and their offices are right next to each other, my first question is "Do the offices have doors on them that can open and shut???...and lock???

The only thing that will stop the A for good and stop you from going out of your mind is for one of the infidels to quit the job. (or get fired!! HMMmmmm??)

Plus you really need to get confirmation that the OM's W even knows about it. Unless you exposed to her, or she to you, how do you even know she knows? Ya know? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Sorta.

She looked to try to verify what OM's been telling her.

She is suspicious that he's being honest with her.

A thing of beauty, huh? WSs snooping on EACH OTHER!! This is a rare BS peek permitted into the underworld.

You are correct - no ultimatums.

Plan A your butt off - especially given the peek you've been afforded. She is NOT yours to win - she's yours to lose.

WAT

Hey WAT, I'm not sure I get this:

"You are correct - no ultimatums.

Plan A your butt off - especially given the peek you've been afforded. She is NOT yours to win - she's yours to lose."

I was telling Dazed over in Recovery that when I 1st came here, and H was only admitting to having feelings for OW, MB vets were telling me OW had to go. I remember saying, "But how can H fire her, especially if he has never told her what he feels for her? Isn't that illegal?" I was still a very naive, dumb BS at that point. Anyhoo, I'll never forget the vets telling me, "OW has to go. Your H got himself into this mess, and he now has to get himself out of it." Two weeks later when I found out about the EA part I did not waiver. I told him OW has to go "Bye, Bye!" Then, before he could beat me to the punch, I speed dialed the "B" and busted her. He fired her the next day. It was a Friday and that Monday he was having panic attacks and called his IC, who gave him this brilliant advice. "If the 2 people are mature, often they can continue working with one another." Well H was so happy and relieved, while I wanted to personally murder the shrink. At that point I think I went a tad ballistic. Told H point blank that if he rehires OW he's gone. I then left the house for 5 hours and slept in the guest room when I came home. All night H was begging me to get into bed with him. I don't have a doubt if I hadn't of played hardball we might not have made it. I told Dazed today I have never seen a M recover yet where NC has not been established. By the way I did also Plan A my butt off. But there wasn't going to be any Plan Aing with the witch still in the picture. I probably wouldn't have been a good Plan Ber either. I don't like to share!

Dazed, I also wanted to relate this to you. As I told you OW worked one more month after she was fired. H made sure he was never alone with her in the building, and no longer talked to her via cell or computer. I thought we were in Recovery and when she left things would really progress! WRONG! Real withdrawal didn't even begin until she left. H just having minimal contact with her every day kept the heavy withdrawal at bay. When she was gone the panic attacks started to escalate. He told me he wanted to call her every minute of every day. Boy that was music to my ears. He swore he was keeping to NC. Then one month later he couldn't stand lying to me anymore. Turns out after 2 weeks he folded and met with her for "closure" They didn't do anything, but he then proceeded to call her every other day. After that NC really began, and I could see H's Lyin' Eyes clear up.

Why am I telling you this? because affair partners can't work together. PERIOD! You wrote:

"I don't want to force my W to be with me. I would rather she returned willing on her own accord and decided to quit work because it was the right thing to do."

Honey, these WSs generally don't do things because it's the "right thing to do." My H wouldn't have fired OW if I hadn't of required it. He put his business in extreme jeapordy by firing her. He really did. Amazingly I believe God worked some miracles regarding his business, which I won't get into now. And I am sure that H wanted to be with OW and not me at the time. Fear of exposure to family and friends, having his teenage boys find out, losing his good reputation in the community, and knowing we would no longer be friends were probably the biggest motivating factors. Being with me, who he had forgotten he was even attracted to, was not at the top of his list. Anyway, I never did have to expose his A, but I would have gladly if he didn't get rid of OW. I know where you at in wanting your W to be with you because she really loves you. I struggled with that for a long time. The things is your WW has to get her head cleared out first. Think of her as an alien. That image really helped me. You need to get her away from the other alien and off the mother ship. Hopefully after that she will remember the love she has for you.

Like CV55 said - NC is non-negotiable. She must leave her job or he must. There is NO recovery without no contact. Nothing will change, nothing will work while contact is ongoing. It will be impossible to save your marriage. You might even get some SF if there is no contact and she withdraws from her lover for a month or so!

OK one more vote for NC and insisting that your WW quit her job. There's no ultimatum here, it's a matter of setting your boundary. What is your boundary? Can you live with her going to work EVERY day and seeing OM? He probably has more access to her than you do - for an EA anyway. If you can live with that, then OK. Most cannot. It KILLED me when WW went to work every day, after D-day and before NC. I freaked out.

So state your boundary to WW ONLY if it IS a boundary for you. Don't blindly follow MB advice without understanding WHY absolutely ZERO contact is healthy for YOU. And your marriage. This is about your marriage, right? If you want help understanding other BS's whys then post away and you'll get dozens of replies. From BS's who have been past where you are now.

I originally thought that my WW really COULD work with OM. And maybe she could. But then again maybe she couldn't. Right?? Why live with that every day?

Establishing your boundaries, even if WW crosses them, is a critical part of Plan A.

My WW went on and on about how much she liked her job. “Love my job” she said. How much of that love for the job was not being able to break the OM addiction? Even if she really DID want to break it? Remember, WS is SICK. Do you give an addict that want to quit a syringe full of heroin? ‘course not.

I kept pushing on WW to quit. WW was winding down the relationship but still foggy enough NOT to be able to say that she was quitting for me or us. So she found another reason to put in her notice - wanted too see her mother for a month or so. Fine.

Her VP offered a leave of absence. She half-discussed it with me. I was still so panicked about her staying in the relationship and having contact with OM that I agreed - we'll work it out - I said. Stupid. I regretted it immediately. Even though she said the A was over, and she initiated no contact with him, he was still able to reach her via email, instant message and a drive by her desk! How was I going to live with that indefinitely??

So why am I telling you this? Because it's important for you to know what you can and cannot live with and STICK to it. No ultimatums. If you want to know how No Ultimatum works, it's like this. WAT and other gurus correct me if I get this wrong. After D-day and before NC WW asked me if she could go to a work happy hour. I told her that as long as OM was not there then I enthusiastically supported her work happy hour.

Now could she have seen him anyway? Sure! But I knew what my boundary was and I reiterated it to her. Every chance I got I reiterated the NC boundary. Did it with quitting the job too but as I mentioned above I caved when this alternate plan to say at work sideswiped me.

Good luck Dazed. Stay strong. Keep posting.

Thanks everyone for the excellent advice. I especially like CV's vision of her being an Alien. That might actually help me.

Tonight went really bad... after 3 great weeks of Plan A and me trying not to question everything she does... I finally broke down and started to wonder if things with her and the OM were really over. I really believe there is no PA - but I'm not ruling out some sort of EA. She denies this and says she doesn't consider him a friend must anymore. But the fact is, they are in meetings all day long with each other and often have to take people out to lunch.

On the way home she asked if I was ok? Why would she ask if she didn't want to hear it... stupid... Anyway I tell her - so we spent the last 4 hours discussing this crap again. I was upset because I was trying to understand the past weekend and my mind wondered as to if there was still something going on. I guess I'm sorry about that.

She wants everything to go away. She doesn't understand that I have significant hurt and pain because of the work situation. She refuses to quit and quickly went to maybe we should just get a divorce. Unbelieveable!!!

Everytime we have a discussion about this that is always the way it goes. Divorce. I can't tell her the way I feel without it excalating to that.

She also believes that I will never forgive her and sites today as an example. She sees these as major setbacks to being normal. The fact is though - everytime we have one of these - our following weeks are much better.

She wants the pain to stop - she wants to forget this happened. I do too, but can't given the current work situation. She thinks that my bar is set to high and she can't live up to the expectation I have to get this resolved. She would rather break up marriage of 9 years and our family with our 4 year old than quit her "great job" where everyone respects her.

So then I find myself saying let's not really do that (get a divorce)... not being strong I guess. I try to tell her all the reasons why we should stay together. How I really love her - and I love our family.

So now, I'm in for a bunch of days of her sleeping in the other room as her way of getting back at me. She probably won't say much to me except when she needs to.

Yeah, this cycle has repeated several times since I found out in January. I just wish the aliens that have infiltrated her body would leave. She doesn't act like I would expect all of the time. I do believe she is very remorseful about the whole situation - but she really seems to be dug in about not quiting this job.

Do I finally say - ok file for divorce and see if she does it? If she does - I really think that she will move forward with it on principle regardless of her feelings.

Regarding Ultimatums... how do you not make "Quit your Job or..." not a ultimatum. I've tried to present this from the point of view that it hurts me everytime she goes to work with him - but she doesn't seem to get it. And when I ask her about looking for another job - she says that is a ultimatum.

Yes, CV put it bluntly on another thread that my W screwed another guy... I try not to think of it in that blunt of terms - maybe I should.

This MAY BE WW reading your mood and trying to figure out what, if anything, you've leared about her A. (Check w/one of the board vets on this.) My WW was never more attentive to me than when she though I had intel about the A.

Dazed - Plan A is a VERY tricky thing to understand and unbelievably hard to do. I could not understand how there could be no ultimatums in it either. There simply is no "or". It's you SHARING how you feel about her working in the same office as OM. And making it GENTLY know at every opportunity how painful it is. Get a couple sentences down that you can use every time the chance comes up. They have to be carefully constructed. Post one here and you'll get help tuning it up. You have to be prepared.

Was your 4 hour session highly emotional? If so, that's one of the reasons why she slapped the "D" on you. She's still in the A, wants to protect it AND be in a M with you. Cake Lady. My WW did this for 6 weeks. It's a NIGHTMARE to live through, I know.

These emotional sessions are highly stressfull for her. She's using D as a way to keep you under control and push you back. She knows you'll back down. You did, right?

I let my WW do EXACTLY the same thing to me. Until I had a moment - and it wasn't anger or rage - that I decided I wasn't going to let ONE person make me feel SO horrible. I decided to take responsibility for my own feelings instead of letting my WW have the reins. I found my resolve. Didn't harden myself against WW or the M. I'm still working to keep that resolve strong. It's not easy. Once you find it, your life will change. Mine did.

Don't challenge her on the D though. Remember SHE'S out of control. Don't help her do something that she may regret. Aliens, right?

I'm sure it's not the first time she's used D on you. WW said it so many times I lost count.

What you've got to do here is stay calm, focused and in control. Might as well ask the rain to burn, right? It's hard. I know. We all know. You'll get better, more practical advice than mine shortly. Just know that there is a way through this. 4 hours of turning yourself inside out with a WW is not the way.

I'm with you brother.

Thanks MDC...

Absolutely, she always pulls out the D word everytime we have a "discussion" about this. Unfortunately it works.

Then I get all the lines about what a bad wife and mom she is and I deserve better. Her way of making me feel sorry for her. In a strange sort of way - I do... since she is clearing not thinking straight.

She thinks I'm crazy since we go through this cycle every couple of weeks... but reality she is trying to act as if nothing happened. I could honestly say that our life now resembles pre-A life - except under the surface its not.

She's done nothing to deal with NC with OM - other than not travel anymore. That's a no brainer... but she doesn't seem to want to seperate from this job.

I think I mentioned before that when the A happened she had about 2-3 months left on her project. She runs the show - and I felt it was also important for her to finish this. And she seemed to hint at the fact that she was going to leave once it was done - but now she hasn't.

She says she loves me...I believe her.

I really need help with trying to figure out how to tell her I can't live with her working with OM - in a non-ultimatum way.

Our discussion tonight was a big LB, and you're right - it took a lot out of her. I've been trying to avoid this but it got out of control and turned into a let's not get divorced discussion (from my side) for most of it. She just kept shaking her head no.

I can't accept that because I don't feel we've extinguished all options and hope.

Dazed, your wife is playing you. She's doing exactly what my wife did and I played along and now I am heading towards divorce. I allowed her to scare me into doing what she wanted, I didn't stand up for myself and backed down everytime she threatened to leave or divorce me. If the continue to work together your marriage will in all likelyhood will not recover.

I'm sorry you are in this situation, I'm praying for you and your family. I too have a four year old, so we unfortunately have a lot in common.

Dazed, I don't want to be giving you bad advice here. It's been a while since I read up on Plan A. I can only tell you what worked for me and what I've observed here the many months on MB. In Harley's book "Surviving an Affair" he tells the story of a couple and how the BH Plan Aed his WW Sue. I read this book during d-month and I NEVER agreed with how the BH dealt with Sue. In fact throughout their story not only couldn't I stand Sue, I was wishing so badly that her BH would dump her. I think he Plan Aed for months while she was still actively in her A and treating him like crap. They did survive, but I often wonder at what cost to him. So I do hope that the Plan A experts here give you more concrete advice about this.

This is my stance on the ultimatum issue. I prefer to look at it this way. Life is about choices. I was absolutely devestated when I discovered my H had feelings of love for OW. When I discovered the EA part of the A I was just clear about my choice in all of this. All sucky choices by the way. I could allow OW to keep working for H and hope he gets over her. That would have definitely made him happy. The risk would be he wouldn't get over her and I'd be miserable, more than I already was. Or, I could tell him she has to go. He can't work with a W he's in-love with. At that point I hated her guts and I couldn't live with that. I totally believed in NC, so I believed we didn't have a chance without it.

OK, so I made my decision. This is the scary part. Now H had to make his decision. He also had choices. He could dump me and stay in his fantasy R and not jeapordise his business. Or, he could fire OW and try to rebuild with me. Sometimes I am amazed that he broke it off almost cold turkey in the "in-love" phase of the A. The only thing I can say is that I think he knew I wasn't "F"ing around. I also believe the reason he began telling me the truth is that he knew pre-D-day at some level I was going to leave him. No sex or emotional contact for months is not what I signed up for when I said those vows.

I agree with MDC in that YOU have to get clear within yourself before you set any bounderies. I know BSs do Plan A for months before the A ends. My tolerance would have never lasted that long, but I also was at the end of my rope before D-day. I've just seen too many As linger on because the BS couldn't make a stand.

I told you the story about H's withdrawal because he did choose me and our M, yet the withdrawal was awful when OW was finally gone. Your WW doesn't want to get rid of her fix of the OM. Plus she does like her job and doesn't want to give it up. This is the WS mind, "Give me, give me, give me! It's all about me, me, me!" Of course she just wants you both to get over the whole ugly mess. That is so classic and you 2 aren't even in recovery yet. That's a whole other story that we'll talk about if you make it over to recovery.

My advice for what's it's worth is to think very strategically right now. You got some good advice on recovery from star about seeking legal advice regarding your son. If your W can keep bringing up the D card, then I'd at least do that for yourself. Then I'd get really clear about what it is you want. How long are you willing to live in this situation? At some point she will have to quit this job. At some point you might have to play hardball and do things like expose to get her to leave. Hopefully not. Remember this! You are not dealing with someone right now that you can trust. Steve Harley told my H As and lies go hand in hand! Get clear on your battle plan now. When you know you are ready begin to go to battle. We'll be here to support you!

Right now, it looks like she's a lot more concerned about how she feels than how you feel.

Which suggests that she's still a WS and has not really recommitted to a M with you.

She's using the D-threat to shut you up and make you back down. And every time you do that, you lose more respect in her eyes.

If I was you, I would bring up the issue again, but this time, with a slightly different approach. If she brings up the issue D issue again, instead of backing off, start exploring it, to see if she REALLY values her job over her M with you.

e.g.

Her: "Maybe we should just get a divorce."
You: "A divorce would be extraordinarily painful for our family - you, me and our child. It will likely involve long and negotiations over finances and child support. It's also quite likely that information about your A will become a lot more public. Are you suggesting that the satisfaction that you get from your current job would be worth all of that?"

Her: "I'm happy working where I am. Why can't you just accept that?"
You: "I will never be able to accept your going to work at the same place the OM works. Every time you do that, it's like a slap in the face to me. If we truly want to work on making our M the best it possibly can be, then we both have to stop doing those things that cause unhappiness for our partners. Your continuing to go to work at that place causes me unhappiness, and it's therefore damaging our M."