Ok, I'm in no position to give any advice but one of the most valuable things to me about this board is just learning from other peoples experiences since they do seem so similar. So I'll share:

Back in Dec my wife and I had this (what I thought was at the time) incredible talk on the flight back from our vacation. She opened up to me about all kinds of things I'd never known about her. Our vacation was in her hometown and in that conversation she told me about her first boyfriend, we talked about "us", the things we've been through, hours of talking about all kinds of intimate things. One thing she told me was something like "I just need you to understand that I need some "me" time once in a while". That vacation she had spent a lot of "me" time by the way. Anyway this was 6 months or so into what I thought was recovery; we were going on lots of dates, spending lots of time, etc. For a while I've remembered this talk as one of our most connected moments in recent memory. When we got back home I tried to give her some "me" time every weekend, trying to be a good husband.

That trip was when she met a guy at a bar (on the *one* *single* night out with her girlfriends no less) and spent the next 6 months secretly conversing with him through email. SO, I think when a WW says things like they need "space" its not a good sign. She even spent a lot of that conversation talking about a retreat she wanted to attend in her home town alone for some more "me" time. Thank goodness she didn't go on that retreat.

Even if they're doing other things that seem right, if they're talking about "space", "me time", "privacy", etc, that is WS code for at *least* "I'm not sure about you yet".

Boy do I feel stupid, duped again! At least I'm hearing a lot less of the "me" stuff lately and we're in counselling now.

Keep up your Plan A! You can do it :-)

MDC,

I would caution you strongly against putting stock into the words of a WW...WSes become masters at manipulating situations to get what they want...Seriously, even some actions can't be trusted...Many times they do or say things to try and keep you at bay...I'm sorry, I know that really stings, but it is honest...I know it's impossible to try and decipher all the yuck...But honestly, when she's ready for the "F", you'll know...Living with you again, words and deeds combined, along with consistency and total transparency will be her ticket into the FWS club...

Sorry to say that her email is close to verbatim from my own WW script...

Mrs. W

LH
I typed this in a word doc and saved frequently before posting. That will be my new method for longer posts.

Thanks for the suggestion. I read SAA once and have spent an average of 10-15 hrs per week on this board reading and posting. Mostly reading about situations similar to mine. I understand the vets don’t like seeing a BS not follow the principals to the letter. I fear that I’ve been cut off by yourself and other posters because I did not expose. As if I were an outcast on the MB board. Could be wrong. That’s my perception. Is there truth to it?

YoH
You are right, actions speak louder than words. And not just one or two actions but consistent behavior. I wonder when I’ll start to see her doing ‘recovery’ things on her own. She’s been reading a self-help style book. I’ve never seen her read one of these books. Anyway I’m backing off leading the recovery just a little bit to create enough space for her to do something proactive. Is that the right thing to do? I just don’t know how to behave right now. Do I still Plan A?? Confused.

I’m a big fan of keyloggers. Installed one on her corporate PC but the anti-virus program found it. Boy was she mad! Anyway I have not installed another one on her laptop. I’m able to recover email when she’s around me but she’s been at her mothers for the past week and a half and I’ve been unable to see her email. I was never able to get the IMs (without a keylogger) and there was a lot of communication that way.

The one snoop I have that works remotely is cell phone records. No calls to OM since I changed her number. Or text messages. If she’s talking to him she’s talking on her mother’s phone & running up big long-distance. And/or talking via email/instant message.

It does seem to me like she’s turning in the right direction but I’ve been wrong before. Very wrong. I can see all the MBers working to ground me in the reality that things may get ugly again. And I appreciate that. I do want to be braced for something bad so it doesn’t bring me to my knees like it did in the past when I believed things were getting better.

NG
Thanks for the heads up. Your story makes me realize that it’s important – and healthy – to remain “on guard”. I have not idea what’s going on in her head so I’m just going to have to like with that. Separate and equal like LA says.

Good point too that less “me” talk is a sign of movement away from wayward. Are you hearing more “us” and “you”?

MW
Good point re: trusted actions. It doesn’t take much for me to remember how, in the heat of the A, some of WW’s actions could not have been cashed. Blank checks.

So what should I do now? Continue Plan A I suppose right? I should continue to reach out to her and not assume we’re in recovery until I KNOW we’re in recovery. And this is something you say I’ll know? Like being in love? If you have to ask you aren’t?

Thanks everyone. I remain hopeful and optimistic. I am much less anxious this week for some reason. I think because I’m starting to get into my new job.

PS I have not heard any update on whether she had a conversation with her VP about qutting. I did not talk to WW all day yesterday and only for a few minutes today since she was going somewhere with the kids. I'll call her tonight & get the latest.

On another note I just did some calcuations and when WW does quit it's going to put a pretty considerable financial strain on us until I ramp into my new position - sales. I actually half thought about asking her to keep the job until she found another one. Someone tell me that this is not a good idea.

I know it's not a good idea. We need to take advantage of her physical separation from the office because who knows what will happen when she goes back to the office and they see each other again. They cannot see each other again!

Ugh. This stinks. Finacial strain has been a halmark of our M and more of it while we're trying to get through this will not be good.

Yep MDC, you'll know...here's how, in recovery(and always in your marriage), you'll be spending at least 15 hours per week TOGETHER...doing that will be revealing...remember, when you are doing that and meeting her needs that's when romantic love will reattach...your conversations will also reflect it...Now, I don't know how others are in their recovery, but Mr. W and I talk openly about the affair...not to beat a dead horse, mind you, but having an affair is all about the issues of the WS, to properly recover the WS MUST find out what about them allowed them to make such a choice...that's a lot of internal work, I constantly talk with Mr. W about that stuff-hey, that's intimacy, warts and all...he has always given me a safe place to share with him...it has worked miracles for our closeness...Recovery is something that you do together...you MUST work in tandem...give her the freedom to share with you by not punishing her when she does-NO DJ's...it is a common goal to be sought after as a union...

MDC, in recovery, there should be true REMORSE from your WW...Don't confuse that with guilt...Guilt is a selfish emotion...I'm quite verbal, and there are times that I don't even have the words to tell Mr. W how sorry that I am...what deep remorse and regret that I feel...I try to verbalize it...mostly now I just tell him how grateful I am to have him...and he is grateful for me too...when she's "ALL IN" she'll tell you, show you and want to shout it to the world...When she is totally on board having contact with OM would seemed ludacrous to her...and while we are on the topic of NO CONTACT, MDC, don't you DARE be tempted to encourage her to go back to that job...sorry, but, ARE YOU INSANE??? That's like asking a crack addict to watch over the stash at the Crack House...alone!!! Um, how bout...NO...NO...NO...Figure out another way...and YES, there is ALWAYS another way!!! Sorry to "shout" at ya MDC, but I don't want to see you walk right into a false recovery...not only that, to encourage her going back to that job to work with OM is actually you volunteering to be a VICTIM, because on some level the affair would resume-count on that...So, that's a BIG N-O! You copy that MDC? We Clear? K...Sorry, at ease...as you were...and all that jazz...LOL...You just scared me...Step away from the "crazy pills" and nobody gets hurt, K? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Great post MW. Thanks.

Do you think my WW is hiding out? Based on your experience what is she healing from?? Or is that fog.

Hmmm...Well MDC, I think that the hiding out theory is certainly possible, and here's why...Affairs are about escaping real life...I certainly see hiding out at her mom's as a healthier form of escapism than an affair, but it's still escapism and THAT is NOT healthy, and of course is NOT good for your marriage...The healing thing is a bunch of hooey to avoid dealing with real life, IMO...it's a red herring...

But I also said much of the same stuff that your WW is saying about "needing space", "time to think" and "work through my issues", etc. when I was trying to keep my affair alive and Mr. W at bay to continue it...so it's a toss up really...it could actually be both...gosh, that sounds so negative, I'm sorry MDC...But take heart, I was one of the WORST WW's around and I could not be any happier in my marriage now, so there is definitely hope...

About contact with OM...when she gets back(when is that again?), if I were you I would put a voice activated digital recorder in her car...although you know that there has been NC via her cellphone, many times there is the existence of the dreaded "affair phone"...We are still trying to straighten out that nightmare because the company actually owes us money...ARGH!!! Anyway, I know that much of the time a BS hates to "snoop" and that the idea of the digital recorder in her car may be unappealing to you, but I am a firm believer that you MUST inspect what you expect...Also, and Mr. W and I believe this has been a great thing for recovery of the BS...When you hear some of the blatant lies told about you and other things, it allows you to realize just how false that the whole load of garbage is...as many here say, if it wasn't so sad it would sometimes be funny...a WS is a really bizarre creature!


Mrs. W

MDC, if you think I deserted you, please remember I’m here on MB for no other reason than to help people get through the obscenity of infidelity. I, and those others you mentioned, don’t get anything out of the hours we take out of our lives to be here. In fact, we’re sacrificing a part of our lives in order to come here regularly. Okay, perhaps we sometimes get some personal satisfaction if we’re able to give someone that little bit of support in a dark hour or make a suggestion for something the betrayed could do to improve their situation, but that’s all there is. At the same time (this isn’t directed at you or anyone else in particular), when a poster decides he or she knows better than Dr. Harley, many of us see only heartbreak and despair ahead for that poster.

Understand this also. Virtually all of us who try to help others out here have suffered from an adultery in their own marriage. Adultery is not something you forget. Many of us operate very closely to a depression of our own because of all the stories we read out here. It’s a defensive tactic--I understand that--but oftentimes we have to avoid train wrecks where we can or we are drawn in too deep. It’s too painful and it takes too much out of us. I suspect we do tend to concentrate on those posters who are actively working on Dr. Harley’s program.

I guess to sum it all up, I regret you feel I deserted you because of the path you decided upon. It was not intentional.

Thanks Mrs. W. Good points. I'm ready for WW to get to the point where she can function again. Where not everything is a crisis - actually she's never been good in crisis. Pre-A or otherwise. Just got a call from her - crisis. Everything's a crisis. Her panic seemed to be more accute during the A. And I see that same kind of panic in her now. That much hasn't changed.

When do I get a full-funcitoning, problem-solving adult that can stay relatively calm in crisis? I'm not looking forward to the financial strain that no job for WW will put on us because WW does not handle adversity well. We're also going to be moving across town. More adversity. It's like I've got to manage the situation as well as her. Kind of like YoH's WW but not quite as severe. Acutally the difference this time is I will NOT try to manage her emotions.

Going to be bumpy for the next couple months so I've got to breathe deep and not gasp for recovery, as LA says.

So what do I do now? Right now I'm acting Plan Aish and working on sharing myself and letting her know that it's safe to share herself with me. It's hard to do remotely of course. We'll get into MC when she gets back. I need to shop for a counselor first. One that can build a clear recovery plan for us.

I like that - "inspect what you expect". I will absolutely do that. WW returns a week from this Saturday.

Agree the lies ARE humorous. I'm at the point now where looking back at the ridiculous things I heard make me chuckle. Still a little burn in them but they are so way out. OP are not excluded from the comedy either. One of the gems from OM was a text message I interecepted after WW broke it of with him "You must REALLY love your kids a lot to be giving me up for them." (Paraphrasing) Classic. OP also blamed ME for ruining any chance at reconcilliation with his W because I called OMW and told her that OM was telling likes about WW being 'just friends'. Beautiful.

Classics from WW are "You did this to yourself!" and "You let him into my heart."

OK now I'm laughing.

Longhorn - I fully understand your point. I would feel the same way. I went back and re-read my posts, kind of relived what I was going through at the time. I was full of fear, confused and fog-bound.

Thanks for sticking with me as much as you did.

I forgot to add that since you're getting great advice from folks like MrsDubya, there's no point in me throwing my 2¢ in. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think you can settle into a strong Plan A now. Do those things that will make you a better, more attractive person to your spouse. She probably won't acknowledge them for a long while. She might not even consciously see them, but they'll have an effect. Hang in there, pardner. The roller coaster ride is just getting under way.

Thanks Longhorn.

Looks like we've got a LONG way to go. I found some music CDs that the OM in WW's first affair made for her. I actually found them a couple weeks ago. Things were so crazy that I didn't think much about them. I rediscovered them a few days ago.

Since they've been on my mind I brought them up to WW. Asked her if they were from the OM in the first A. Geez you wouldn't believe the fog I got back. She won't even call that A by what it was - an A. "You mean that guy I was emailing that you freaked out about?" I've got a BIG hill to climb.

So question about withdrawl. Let's assume that WW is NC with OM - from this A. Is it normal for her after a couple weeks of NC to still be foundbound, defensive, justifying. Unable to call things by their right names? Like calling an EA an EA?

I'm really discouraged. Ugh.

Also - there's a very clean definition of an affair I saw somewhere. Can anybody point me to it?

Yes, MDC, it is VERY NORMAL for her to still be fog bound that early into NC...Recovery is not an event, it is a process...I began posting here 10 days into NC and trust me when I tell you that I was a HUGE foghorn...it makes me shudder to go back and read my old stuff-especially when I posted how that I had gotten "clarity" from renewed contact with OM-geez, I was an idiot <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />...for me, reading the stories of others here really helped to cut through my fog...it was odd, I would read the stories of the BSes here and be outraged at what was happening to them, but it took a while for me to see that THAT was EXACTLY what I had been doing...hey, when we first come here, we all think that our stories are SOOOO Unique...what a great slap of reality to find out just how cookie cutter that affairs are...makes you feel like a pretty big idiot...

I'm not sure what definition that you are refering to, but I like how Dr. Phil puts it..."Infidelity is what your spouse thinks it is."... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W

This article by Steve Harley may be the one you were thinking about?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8501_fft.html

I believe in stating what you believe an affair is...your definition matters.

That's not educating...that is you being O&H, isn't it? You believe marriage is for two parties only...correct?

Be strong in what you believe, MDC...respectful. What she believes is hers...and it changes, as your beliefs have changed...

Stay focused on you...so you can share yourself...instead of react.

LA

MDC, you aren't referring to the Dr. Phil definition of cheating, are you? Paraphrasing it, "If you wouldn't do it in front of your spouse, it's cheating."

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, probably is a duck. Could be a duck billed platapus though.

I recently change apartments and there are some kids around here that have no parental supervision. They do some things I would never allow my kids to do. I gave them one simple rule. You act as though I am going to find out everything you do. If you know you would get in trouble if I was watching you don't do it.

I think the same goes for a marriage. If any of her actions were no big deal why hide them? If you were doing the same exact thing would it bother her? You know the answers.

Quick funny story. Exactly one year after my wifes A I had to take a business trip. I was getting so agitated by her lying and oh well attitude I alluded to the fact something happened on my trip. She freaked out. She was calling my work trying to get this girls name before I could even get home. Nothing happened I made it up. I was actually going to let it go on until she felt some of the pain I did. She was going to destroy me though. Get me fired. Told me to pack my crap and leave. I had to admit my lie. She asked why I would do that. I said from the way you acted this last year I thought it would be no big deal to you. I guess it was a big deal and I wasn't over reacting. I guess whats good for the goose wasn't good for the gander.

So the moral to this story is tell her to stop quacking cause she wouldn't like you going online and chatting up other women.

formerly years of hurt.

***Also - there's a very clean definition of an affair I saw somewhere. Can anybody point me to it?***

My sig line may have what you're looking for, thanks to LovingAnyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Mulan

Thanks everyone for your responses!

Mrs. W - thanks for the clarification. Looks like I've traded one stage of weirdness for another. I do like the Dr. Phil definition.

How long does it take to pull through the fog? Other than this board - I'll invite her to post - what are some of the things that can be done to clear it? You can see that WW is still fogged about the first affair. 2 1/2 years later! What clears it for a WS in withdrawl? I've read all the withdrawl links including Suzet's. Just looking for more insight...

And Mulan - yes that's the one I was looking for. Not for myself but to share w/my WW.