YOH,

I'm curious...

What is your level of understanding regarding addiction?
Do you think addiction can be cured?

You mentioned that alcoholics can possibly enter into recovery without the lifelong committment.

Interesting take given that alcoholism is classified as a disease.
A disease has no cure...only treatment.

For example, diabetes is a disease. A person can never be 'cured' of diabetes, they can only treat the symptoms by managing their diet or taking medication. If they do not do either of these they die. This is a life long commitment.

It is the same for an alcoholic...drinking is the symptom of the disease - not the cause. The cause is an allergy of the body and an obsession of the mind. AA treats the symptoms of the disease...drinking and obsessive thoughts. If an alcoholic stops treatment - in whatever form - they will die as a result of their alcoholism.

Yup...that's worth a life long commitment if you ask me.

FYI...I'm a mom that stays willingly home alone quite often with 2 kids, while my H goes to meetings so he can be healthy and happy when he's here with us.

I don't resent the sacrifice...I'm grateful for it.

Ok

I am not trying to offend or to get anyone's dander up.

You are all true believers in the program and that is good for all of you.

My wife right as we speak is going with her sponsor to a special meeting. She woke up at 5:30 am to go.



I told her she looked great and I hoped she had a good meeting.

Now 272 no where in this thread have I asked for your pity or anyone elses. But thank you for your hostile attitude. It is real productive. Truth be told for your information it wasn't until a little over two weeks ago I found out some devastating details of my wifes A that she had been been very dishonest about. But thats irrelevant when it comes to this thread.

"AA stands for Alcoholics ANONYMOUS, hence any studies that involve active AA members are BS." Really The AA GSO conducted triennial surveys in 1990's they published a commentary on the surveys they conducted called "Comments on triennial surveys. Showing drop out rates. Are you saying that AA publishes BS?

Another study by AA in Australia was done again by AA which you say is BS. 1,425 members from 123 of the countries group were included. When the survey was finished by AA here is what the Chairman Dr. Ron Whitington said. "Our 1992 survey showed that only 5% of newcomers are still attending meetings after 12 months. This is a truely terrible statistic. Again we must ask "Where does the Fault Lie?" Is the Chairman of AA in Australia full of BS?

So there you go Joe I am just quoting statistics which you say don't exist.

Again, as I stated before, there have been Scientific studies in which there were three plans for recovery. AA, rehab and no treatment. It polled the success rates of all three groups. I won't tell you which one was most successful because I don't think it would matter to you.

So Joe who is mis informed. I did not want to make this personal towards you but you seem to be very touchy about the subject.

To my point spontaneous remission occurs in about 5% of the Alcoholoic population. Meaning 5% of the people do quit without any treatment. If The chairmans numbers are correct then AA has the same rate of success as spontaneous remmission. Think about that for a moment.

"In the AA traditions it states " Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio and film."
Ok I will Quote Bill on this one "You have no conception these days of how much failure we had. You had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful to take the bait"

Really it is spiratual not god. Then who do you give it up to? God as you know him.

So Joe notice I have not attacked you personally just your belief system.

I now have one simple question for you do you quit drinking before you start meetings or do the meetings help you stop drinking? I am not asking if they help you maintain sobriety.

Banyak-

I believe alchol is an addiction absolutely.
So I believe that you cannot stay sober without a lifelong commitment to sobriety.
Remember I understand better then anyone about the lifelong commitment my father made his to alchol and yes it killed him.
Now you say you stay gladly home with the kids that is wonderful.

Let me ask you one question and please answer it honestly. If your H could have taken a different, just as effective treatment program from the start that didn't require him to go to meetings 2 times a week what would you prefer.

Same sobriety results just no meetings. It is actually been suggested(I say suggested because it was documented in one of the research studies Joe says don't exist) that the best treatment for an alcoholic is a spouse that wants to work with them and support them in their sobriety. In other words you are his best chance at sobriety. It might have been you this whole time Banyak that has kept him sober not AA.

We are saying that surveys are not the same as controlled studies and are meaningless. Even AA says these are highly questionable because members don't go to one group and stay, they float from group to group and many have memberships in many groups. Even so, it always comes back to the point that statistics are meaningless. What matters is if AA can help your wife like it did us.

It doesn't matter if the "success rate" is 0000000000000000000000001%, what matters is what works for your wife. AA has been 100% successful for ME, perhaps it can be for your wife, unless you interfere with her recovery.



AA doesn't "require" anyone to do anything. AA is completely VOLUNTARY. For the first seven years, I went to FIVE meetings a week, not because that was a REQUIREMENT, but because that is what kept me sober. That is what it took.


If you are truly grandiose enough to believe that you can "cure" your own wife, then my question is why have you not done this? What is YOUR rate of success? Do you have studies that demonstrate your rate of success?


Your unsourced quote makes no sense taken out of context and certainly doesn't make your point for you. The fact remains that AA is a program of ATTRACTION, they do not recruit.

Yes the success rate in relationship to spontaneous remission does matter. If 5% of people get better by themselves and only .000000000001% get better in AA then AA is having a negative effect. Put it this way if I have XYZ disease and 95% of the people who have it die and a new medicine comes out and 99.9999999% die that take it I do not have a .000000001% success rate.

Mel you yourself have said you have to work the program. No AA does not require you to do anything. But to your own admission you have to work the program or you will fail. Is attending meetings regularly not part of the program? No requirement per se but then people will say it wasn't the program it was that they were not working the program.

I agree that nobody can "cure" an addiciton. I never suggested that I could. How did it work for me I don't know yet. I am supporting my wife so maybe that is a key element in her success. But of course you will say it was all the program. Nothing to do with all of the supportive spouses and significant others. I do believe that no matter what treatment program my W chose she would need my support. The more supportive the spouse is the better the chances. I will never interfer with her recovery. Quite honestly this thread is really making me start questioning the program more then I ever have.

Mel statistics matter in treatment!!!!! There is no other "cure" for a disease that can make a statement about success without giving statistics. I have said on several occasions that if you look you will see what controlled studies have found. It was 100% succesful for you becuase you decided you have had enough. That is the common thread in sobriety. The alchoholic having enough. They decide to quit and whatever treatment they decided on when they had enough is what worked even if it was no treatment. Ever said it always seems like I find my keys in the last place that I look. Well of course you did you wouldn't keep looking after you found them.

BTW if I had the success rate that was found in AA's own studies I would probably say the were questionable as well.

yoh, if you can find success staying home, then you should by all means DO IT!! You have to find success whereever you can get it. If you don't feel that AA is the program for your wife and you can sober her up, then you should do it!

Find what works for you, yoh. It is no sweat off anyone. Different strokes for different folks.

Mel,

I agree that whatever works for my spouse is what I want. I will not and never will interfer with her program.

I just met her sponsor this morning as a matter of fact. I let her discuss her feelings etc.

It is working for my W and as you said that is what is important.

Throught this thread I have been questioned regarding one simple statment I made. Which was "And just to let you know to be fair I am skeptical about the success rate of the program. Every report I have read gives varying sucess rates some as high as 25% and some as low as 1%-5% for long term sobriety."

From this point it has been very confrontational. Maybe I was wrong in my statement or I shouldn't have said it. Then on a thread about mis information I tried to share some information and each time I was told I was wrong or mis informed or told I needed to pull my head out of my a$$.

I am a skeptic at heart. I always research things 5 ways to sunday before I make a decesion. When I buy a BBQ I read reviews, comparison shop and research the product itself in comparison to other choices.

I will quote now what I said about the program in the sentence before I pointed out my skeptisism "So thank Bill for the program and thank my wifes sponsor for helping her through this." Why has this not been focused on. I am thanful but skeptical.

YOH

"Really it is spiratual not god. Then who do you give it up to? God as you know him."

It can be God if someone chooses, however it can also be something as simple as a light switch...so long as it is a power we consider to be greater than ourselves.

"So Joe notice I have not attacked you personally just your belief system."

I take my sobriety and program very personally, anytime someone is attacking either I take it very personally. My belief system is what it is because of being raised R.C. I didn't have a healty belief in God, I thought He was a comdeming, unforgiving God that allowed bad things happen to really good people.

When I decided to sober up I didn't use the "God" that I was raised to believe in, I had to use the one that felt comfortable for me. Thats the whole point and concept that AA is built on "MAKING THE PROGRAM FIT YOU, NOT YOU FITTING THE PROGRAM!!! Fitting in is one of the biggest issues people in the program have, and any time WE can make it fit us rather than us fitting it we feel like we have won.


"I now have one simple question for you do you quit drinking before you start meetings or do the meetings help you stop drinking? I am not asking if they help you maintain sobriety."

This is different for every one, however in my case I went to a meeting first, not intending to quit, but did.

I was in Al-Ateen, went to a meeting 3 days after a really big drunk, still hung-over and not liking life in general. I had tried to commit suicide 3 weeks prior. A person handed me the 20 questions of alcoholism and I answered 10 with yes. It was the first test I had passed in a long time. After doing the steps, losing the fear, and becoming more honest I'll now answer 18 with a yes.

Today, drinking isn't an issue, I use the meetings to maintain a healthy mental attitude and outlook to deal with life on life's terms.

As for all the studies, I don't believe in them. I know what works for me so I think it's in everyone's best interest that you and I bury the hatchet on stats etc. because we will continue to butt heads.

If it WORKS don't FIX IT.

272 Joe

I have to say I'm starting to question the wisdom of continuing to post on this thread. I belive the point is being lost in semantics(sp?)

Could we all perhaps agree to treating eachother with mutual respect and get back to being helpful?

YOH,

It sounds to me like you have a lack of 'real' understanding of the AA program. I realize you've read your studies and gathered what information you can, but does theroetical information beat practical experience in this case?

Many individuals that attend meetings never actually join a home group. Some have more than one home group. Some join and stay sober from day one. Some go in and out of the program and practice drinking for many years before becomming completely sober. None of this information is recorded by the groups. The only personal information a group records is a list of current members and their sobriety dates.

In the 12 traditions of AA it states that "AA as such, ought never be organized; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve."

Given all of that I have to ask, how can any statistical information be accurate?

I am not alcoholic, however I have been attending regular open AA meetings for almost 11 years. I have been as active as a 'non member' can be within the group I attend most regularly. I have done the 12 steps, both in AA and Al-Anon, and studied the 'big book'. I have seen with my own eyes how the program works.

Over the years I have met hundreds of AA members. Some of them were successful at sobriety, and some weren't.
I didn't keep records of each individual I met, but I can say beyond a shadow of doubt that more than 5% of the alcoholics I've met are still sober today.

The bottom line is this, whether AA saves the life of 1 in 3 alcoholics or 1 in 10000 alcoholics is irrelevant. The important fact is a life has been saved that otherwise may not have been. For the people in those rooms, that is justification enough.

I may be overstepping here, but I believe 272 Joe is trying to make a very simple point with you. I think he's trying to get across the fact that it doesn't matter whether or not you're skeptical about AA, but it does matter whether an alcoholic depending on AA for sobriety is skeptical. Given that, it would be a risk to your wife's sobriety if your feelings about AA were reflected in the way you support her in her program.

I know you say you keep your feelings on this subject to yourself, but within the intimacy of marriage, she's bound to pick up on it at some point, and may question the program as a result. What do you think that will do to her sobriety?



A commitment to sobriety isn't enough, a commitment to the treatment that provides sobriety is necessary.


It's wonderful today, but since we're being honest here I have to say it didn't start out that way. My H and I have been married 10 years, our boys are 6 & 8. The oldest had colic for 8 months. There were days I'd be pulling my hair out trying to deal with babies, house-hold chores, work, family, friends etc., to have him come home after having been gone at work for 12 hours, only to announce he was 'going to grab a quick bite to eat and head out to a meeting.'

There I was, desperately looking forward to some help, only to find I'd be on my own for another 2 - 3 hours. Yup...I resented AA then.

It took time to get over that resentment, and only by attending meetings did I come to understand why they were so important for my H. I'm past it now, but it took a good year of being active in the program myself before I could let it go.


When our marriage was new (say the first 3 years) and the kids were little (keeping in mind that I had a limited understanding of AA) I would have prefered something that didn't take him away from home so much. Simply because life was difficult then, and I didn't like the idea of dealing with so much of it alone.

Now that I see how AA teaches the alcoholic about more than just staying away from booze I prefer that he attends AA meetings hands down. My husband has grown as a person in this program, and has learned things I don't believe he could have without the help of his sponsors and the people in those rooms. Our marriage would not have survived, especially after the affair if that had not taken place.


I have to agree that an alcoholic has a better chance at sobriety if their spouse supports them, heck, anyone has a better chance of success when the spouse supports whatever thing they are attempting to be successful at.

I do not believe I'm the major player in his sobriety though...he had 13 years in AA when I met him and was quite stable in his program. In fact, he's come closer to relapsing since we were married than he ever did prior to that point.

If I may I'd like to offer some advice - take what you can use, and leave the rest.

You may be skeptical about the program, and I honestly can't blame you given your experience and circumstances, however I think you may be letting your analitical(again with the sp?) personality get in the way of your ability to truly understand how the program of AA works.

It seems to me that both the survival of your marriage and your wife's sobriety has become dependant on AA. Given that doesn't it make sense for you to gain a better 'practical' understanding of the inner workings of AA? You can remain as skeptical as you'd like about the program itself, but I would suggest to you that more than a theoretical knowledge of AA is necessary for you at this point so that you can not only support your wife in her recovery, but understand it as well.

I know it's hard with you having to put the kids first, but would it be possible for you to attend more open AA meetings - either with or without your W?

I honestly think it would be of more benefit to you than you know.

Please try to put your statistics aside and give AA a chance based on it's own merits.

Take care,
B.

when mr pep started going to meetings ... LOTS & LOTS & LOTS of f'ing meetings ... I was jealous ... after all, he was spilling his GUTS to strangers right after his affair was discovered ... and my at-that-time-hurt-feelings went something like this:

~~~ he betrays me with OW

OW knows all about his life and his feelings

now he's off with his next mistress > AA

here I sit alone
lonely
betrayed
angry
and I have NO ONE to share my feelings with

he shared his feelings with OW
and now AA
and NEVER with ME ME ME~~~

and on and on and blah blah blah

lordy I got sick and tired of my own whining voice

heck , even I wanted to escape my own company

early sobriety was HARD on me
REALLY REALLY hard on me

I hated HIM
I hated OW
I hated myself
I hated AA

I was full-throttle victim

and I hated myself as a victim
I had not fancied myself as a victim very much in my life

on my knees yelling at God for all my victimness ~>> " why oh why me God? how could you allow this to happen to me? "

blah blah blah

it was during this time my H was growing and I was shrinking

the ME I knew was now able to fit into a teacup

and I was afraid that I might disappear altogether

and to make matters WORSE, when I asked to go to some meetings with H, his body language clearly indicated he did not want me there ~~~> woe is me ~another~ rejection

the ONLY way I got out of this hellish self-loathing was to change my focus off of H and his sobriety and his failures and his responsibilities ... and start looking at

moi

my habits
my anger
my woundedness
my fear
my lazyness
my craziness
my weapons of marriage destruction

it was horrible
I was horrible
it sucked
I resisted
I failed
I struggled

and slowly
I met myself on the other side of infidelity and without the dependency of needing to be in charge of what I could never be in charge of

others

I still do this "in charge thing"
as other MB posters will attest to

but not as much
and sometimes I can stop myself before I begin

here's a friendly tip for which I charge you zero of my usual fee *snort* ~~~> detach

detachment is your most loving tool

can we trust ourselves to detach and not fall apart?

because that is why we hang on to pseudo control ... we are afraid we might fall to pieces if we let go

but letting go of 'control' ... is what saves us ... from the pit of someone else's fall

we cannot prevent their fall
nor should we try

we fall for ourselves enough times, we learn how to get up

getting up is finding out who we are

I am not the rescurer of my H
he did that on his own
it made him STRONG

anywho... too long already

he fell
I fell
we struggled
we got up separately
we came together as whole people
we are us again
but not fused by our sickness

that's how it goes

if you want some insight ... go back and re-read all your complaints/questions/doubts/concerns about AA ... and insert your own name <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Pep

See I knew we could get to the bottom of this. LOL

Again I want to say I am skeptical. But it is working!!!!! That is what is important to me.

I can't believe I never saw how bad it was with my FWW. I should have, I grew up around it. Maybe thats why I didn't see it cause dad was worse then FWW.

I do not blame the program for failure. I blame the alchoholic. Lets face it SOME people go not because they truly want to stop but because they think they should. There needs to be a 100% desire to stop. We cannot make them.

As far as me going to meetings with FWW that will happen in her time not mine. I have told her I would go but she doesn't feel comfortable with me going. My fault for that. She freely admits the open meetings that she attends have a lot of negativity. The one she went to yesterday she said was much more positive.

I think as 12 steppers you guys should be more active in telling people what messages are real from the program. One of my biggest problems is I knew my FWW was not taking away the correct message. Many of times she came home and told me how lucky I was because so and so actually did xyz. Not what the program is about.

I encourage all of you to not just talk about the steps but dispell bad info we might be getting from the alcoholic.

Again thank you for proving how the program can work if you work the program. It gives us all hope.

This is why many of us don't like Alanon. If our spouses go to Alanon, we can no longer bullsh** them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good point, Mel, and good suggestion for anyone listening!